Treating Mental Health w/ Psychedelics: Trevor Millar & Marcus Luttrell Discuss The Benefits of This Powerful Medicine

The team Never Quit podcast is sponsored by Navy Federal Credit Union. Partner up with Navy Federal to pay down credit card debt. You can learn more at NavyFederal.org. As we live life, we're seeing life through a pane of glass, like a filter. As our heart gets broken, as we suffer traumas, big traumas, small traumas, that glass gets dirty. It gets so dirty that we don't even recognize it's dirty anymore. And what these psychedelic substances seem to be able to do is clean that glass from the inside out. I-13, it's a power here. It's not an intellectual game. It's a game never quit. It's a game never quit. It's a game never quit radio. Alright everybody, welcome back to the TNGU podcast. I'm your host, Marcus LaTrell. Every week it's my job to fire you up, to ignite the legend inside of you and to push you to your greatness. Join me every week as I take you into my briefing room with some of the most hard-charging people on the planet. They're going to show you how to embrace the fuck of life, teach you the values of working your ass off, and charge you whatever life throws at you. This is the team Never Quit podcast. Don't fuck a love, Flutter Cup. Alright ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of Team Never Quit podcast. It is a beautiful day out here at Valhalla, and the sun is out and shining. Just so you know, we are posting on our social media app, so stay up to date on at Team Never Quit. And then let's kick it off with our Patreon question of the day, which is, where would you recommend taking a kid on their first camping trip? Well, Acts just had our 11 year old. The fifth grade class goes on a camping trip, like the whole class teachers and everything. They actually go intense to a state park in Texas, four hours away from home, called Enchanted Rock. And they just did this last week. Grade 5. Yeah, grade 5. And... You got them out there early. I think I did that grade 7. Did you? So, they go, and it's a one night thing. They leave really early in the morning. They're supposed to hike when they get there, do all the camping things at night. They're supposed to hike the next day, and then drive back in the afternoon. Well, they get there, they do their first hike, and then they get ready for bed, and it starts storming. And then the lightning comes. And they said it looked like a movie, the lightning. They're up on top of this hill, like a domed hill, and the lightning is just coming from all sides. They said it was crazy. All of their stuff got soaked. The inside of their tents got soaked. Their sleeping bags, and pillows, and everything. And in the middle of the night, the teachers called it quits. Wow. And they had to pack up and drive the four hours home. So, Axe is not excited about his first camping trip, an attempt. I mean, Enchanted Rock may be great for some families, but for Axe's fifth family, it was awful. I'll never forget that. He'll never forget it. I'll never forget it. I think the lessons there, though, your first camping trip is maybe just someplace you can nicely drive in, set up near a lake. Nice little fire pit. Right there. Some other campers around. Or maybe even in the backyard. The cabin lakes, camp and trip mills, those are great. I feel like the first one, when Hunter was little, I set up tents in the backyard. Like in the very back of the backyard. That's for birthdays. It was his starter starter. If you're real technical, you just build a tent in the house first. Yeah, a fort, right? Yeah, a fort. A fort with blankets, and then you kind of slowly get them out the door and down the road. Yeah, I'm from Canada. We did igloos. Like remember somebody's dad doing us this crazy, like it was warm inside. What? And we stayed overnight in that thing. In the real igloo? Yeah, not as cool as an Eskimo as a glue, I don't think. But I think it was a pile of snow that had been there because of clearing the driveway or something and dug it in and... Oh my gosh, that's cool. I've never been in an igloo. I feel like anywhere in one of our national forests. I'm definitely next to water. On a river where you could do some fishing with the campfire and then you can get out early. I remember my dad, we would go camping a lot. That was the thing. It's the best sleep and you'll have. Yeah, it's camping. If you need to sleep, go for camp. For no other reason than to get out there to get some rest, because for whatever reason, it works like that. Yeah. Your story of your son reminded me of, I did this Grade 7 camping trip and it was a hike and a camp. And as soon as we got there, this dog started following us around. And he was there for the three or four days that we were there and it was awesome and I really wanted to take this dog home. But the bus driver wouldn't let me take the dog home. I'm sure my parents wouldn't have liked me showing up with the dog anyway. But there was an article in the newspaper a week or so later that somebody shared and somebody was hiking that same trail. Some rock mysteriously fell and chopped somebody's arm off. And there was a little line in there that they said, they used a tourniquet from the collar of a dog that had been following them around since they arrived. That gave me chills. Oh my gosh. His dog saved the life. I'm glad he wasn't allowed on the bus. Oh my gosh, that gave me a little body chills. Because it's now on. When any of my kids want to bring a stray dog home, we're going to call them, but hey. That sucker's out here to save somebody, leave it there. Keep it close by. Thank you for the out. Yeah, I've been searching high and low. We just need to feed it. I just needed a real life story to go along with it. So now I got one. Everybody can understand. Oh my gosh, that's hilarious. That is a crazy story. That's like a movie. Wow. There are definitely some adventures and some crazy stories do come out of the camping world though. Yeah, that was a good one, Heather. So Canada, where in Canada were you born? I was born in Kitchener, Ontario, Canada, which is near Toronto, about an hour west of Toronto. Every Canadian I ran into are just pleasant people. Is that like an overall thing or do you all have some bastards that run around there and don't let out? I think there's some jerks, but in fact, I was coming up. You found one? You know where one's at? No, I was speaking to a driver yesterday. And she's from Mexico. And I mentioned I'm from Canada. She's like, oh my God, that's my favourite place to visit. The people are so friendly. And yeah, I think the people are legitimate. I think we have good manners, you know? And just know how to... But Texas is not that true. That's over. I think, right? Well, that's a big thing for Texans. Yeah, I think that gets overlooked a lot as a man. A man is going a long way. Yeah. But is manners because you were disciplined as a kid? Um, at least to have good manners. Yeah. Yeah, I wasn't... I got my spankings, but probably not for bad manners. LAUGHTER But I feel like manners go hand in hand with discipline. Yeah. At least having a guideline of discipline. If you don't have any kind of discipline, the kid never has manners. Well, you're gonna have a guideline. There's gonna be a guideline put in that thing. Which one you want? Yeah. That's how you have to look at that. Especially in the beginning, I was watching something the other day, they were talking about AI. And one of the guys I was just talking about how much time and everything I had to put into training it. And then I heard somebody say the other day, do you take the time to teach your kids how to share? Like that's a skill set. You have to teach somebody. I never thought about it like that. I thought that was kind of like you just... But if you're gonna break something down, and you need to put as much time and effort into your kids, you do AI or anything that has to be trained. And breaking it down, you see those... It's like looking at a well-disciplined dog, like a canine, right? When they sit up straight and they're just kind of focused on, then you see the one that doesn't... You can tell. Everyone loves how sharp that looks when you see that. And that's... Well, I think that's... So people are fascinated with the military. Because when they close, then they come into ranks. When y'all see us do that, that's something. It changes everything. Like you can see us mill about, man, but when we sharp up into ranks, that's a whole different ballgame. And then you guys carry that with you afterwards. Afterwards, yeah, that's right. In working with military guys, I've heard a few people come through because they come in in groups and they've all picked each other out before they've even met. Like they've scoped it up. They know everybody that's been in the military just by eye in the room. And with our generation, it's really prevalent because the war we were fighting was against the ghost. So you actually had to look at everybody and understand how they walk. Like bad people walk a certain way. They'll act a certain way. So we really have to study each other. It was by default that happened to us. That wasn't really part of our train... Some of us have got that training, but actually life did that to us. So when you're around us, that's right. And we speak a different freaking language. I mean, we could sit there and have a conversation... Yeah, absolutely. We could sit there and have a conversation everyone will understand, but we're actually talking to each other, saying something different. It's crazy. It's awesome. Yeah, I don't understand the acronyms. No, it's crazy. I've picked up a few, but... Oh, you get better with it, man. You can't help it. It's just like with anything else. It's like you'll be sitting next to us and what normally happens and why you remember something is it'll be an event. It'll make you laugh. If you laugh at something when you correlate it with that verbiage, then that's how it gets set in. That's probably where most military terms come from. So did you have a big family in Canada? My parents are still married. That's a big deal. Congratulations, right? In fact, it's my mother's 70th birthday is coming up next week. And we're doing...this won't air before. So I surprise mom in case you do see this soon, but we're doing...my sister asked me and her husband's going to do it and she has four kids and we're all going to record like little snippets of things. Oh. 70 things that we love about my mother and they're going to edit it into one thing. Yeah. Hi, my wife. She's a sister and she now lives in Australia. She's married to a wonderful guy. Great country. It is a great country. Great, but is he Australian? Yeah, he's Australian. They met while she was at Teachers College in Scotland and now she has four kids, three girls and a boy. So you got Canada and Australia? That's a stretch, man. You all meet in the middle somewhere? We're talking about... We're talking about Canada where we go to Australia. My parents came in. Lord, man. To visit me recently too, and I haven't had the whole family down. That's a good time. I love it down there. Too far away to visit, but man. Yeah, it was a really good upbringing. It was a great place to grow up. It's a big city or country. It's a medium-sized suburb. A town? Yeah, a town. It's, you know, I think it's Kitchener and Waterloo. I think while I was growing up there was about 300,000 people. Total bears. So that's big. Yeah. Yeah. Right on. That's city. I'm a little hungry and he always called me a city boy. Yeah. 300 grand. That's a city. Yeah. Yo, what's it like, sports teams and stuff? No major sports teams. The Kitchener Rangers was the hockey team. Hockey though, right? Hockey at the Wazoo? Yeah, hockey at the Wazoo. I didn't play too much hockey. I was a swimmer. That's sort of like... Freezing the bears. You know what the hell are you talking about? Indoor facts. What are you talking about? I don't even know y'all had swimming up there. Are you giving me? One of the things I said about my mom in the video I shot is her getting me up at five in the morning, freezing cold outside, colder than freezing, taking me to a pool so I could get in and do swim practice that I didn't want to do. An indoor pool, right? Yeah. The water pipe felt good when you got in if it's freezing outside. I don't know man. Yeah, you're right. No, I don't think so. There's something about having to take your clothes off even if you're inside when it's moving. Yeah. Hats off to the swimmers. That's sport in particular, getting up early, just to go get in that cold act. It's always 72 degrees which is not pleasant in the morning when you're bad. Yeah. That's a hard, hard bet. It wasn't good. Not good. Not good. No. But I was pretty good. I was a pretty good swimmer. I've always kind of gravitated towards water, sports. I'm not very good surfer but always wanted to learn how to surf and then learn how. I just don't practice enough now. Well, yeah. I spent four months in Costa Rica in 2005. I got a good breakdown there. Yeah, and it's warm. And it's warm. Yeah. How about that? Yeah. Same way with why but they're just real particular about the breaks there. Yeah. Brothers, sister, siblings? Yeah, one sister. The sister. Two school years younger, almost three actual years younger. Incredible person. We're very good friends. Her whole family is amazing. Love them very much. Really kind of untramatic childhood, you know, kudos to my parents. Which they do what? My dad is a mechanic who then owned, he was a service manager at a Ford dealership and then owned his own shop. It was a fuel injection shop, KW fuel injection. So he was the boss of that shop and sold that and it was a successful business. My mom's incredible. She's a registered nurse who then put herself back into school to get her masters, almost all by correspondence. So that's a memory I have in my mother is her just sitting there working on these papers at the kitchen table for years and years. Got her masters, became a nurse practitioner. Oh, wow. Worked at the same hospital her whole life, retired and now still works at that same hospital. Oh my gosh. She released a few days a week because she's so valued. And she needs the money to pay to bring families back and forth from Australia. Yeah. Her dad. Her dad. Yeah. Her dad. Her dad. To see her great kids. So do you take your own, do you have to take your own cars and stuff like that? Did you learn how to do that or was that? It's funny. My dad is. I tell him he's going to ask his pops. Yeah. My dad's a mechanical genius. Like he can fix everything and I didn't pick up very much. He just did it. I held the flashlight but I didn't pay attention. But every, my, my, the love of my life, Brianna, she is continuously made. So when I actually can fix things, there's, there's a few things I picked up for sure. Yeah. Because you know, guy code, if something goes wrong on the car, you automatically lift the hood and get out of your gun. Yeah. Even if you don't know how you're doing it. Yeah. Just look at it. And you'd be like, okay, try it. And then you come back in and then you wiggle something. Yeah. And then you're like, okay, try it. Right? But then there's the guys, I passed one the other day taking the kids to visit you, man. Oh boy was sitting up in, in the frickin engine compartment, ass hanging out with the crack, dude. You know, he's just going to work in there. Some guys can just, once they know how it works, they can just do it. Yeah. It's amazing. It's like the guys are going to do math. It's man. I mean, they just got it. Like I grew up, the car never went to a mechanic. We never, never, never, we never had an electrician. And my dad would do that for all his friends. Everybody would call gourd whenever something needed to be fixed. What was his name? Gourd Miller. Yeah. See, yeah, that's one of them helpful names. Yeah, exactly. I'm talking about, I think you need to have one of those guys. Yeah, you do. Like the certain names of certain guys and certain guys have those skill sets, you're like, man, you know, you just got to have him because he loves to fix something. And the way you get him is just like, I don't think it can be fixed. Yes. You know what I'm talking about? You just kind of, you just trip them into it and they're like, oh, bull, I can fix this. Watch this. Isn't that great? I don't know, beer or something, right? And it just, it's been fixed anything. It's amazing. It's amazing. And he's still there on call. In fact, he came down and visited me at my new place that I had been renting. And there was just a list of things that didn't work. This sliding door didn't open properly. This screen had a hole in it. He must have fixed a hundred things. Oh, my God. My landlord's ass. I was gonna say, yeah. My landlord said, how much do I owe you for all this work? Well, it's my dad. We were talking about that last time I was with you, man. That makes sense to have dad out. Yeah, it's everything. It's everything. It's that door and that house. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That is so funny. That's great. So what did you do after growing up in that area? Did you stay through college? Yeah, I, so I was a swimmer. I turned into a lifeguard. The only paying lifeguard job I had was at a Holiday Inn Hotel, which had a little, Wasn't Express? No, it wasn't. It was Express. That came out while I worked at Holiday Inn. Literally wasn't Express. That's huge. That's gonna resume if you're a lifeguard at Holiday Inn Express. I think they tore that Holiday Inn down now. But it had a little fitness center and pool. I never saved anybody. It was boring. I'd fold a lot of towels. But then once I graduated high school, I started working the front desk of that hotel. And then I didn't want to go to college or university right away anyway. And in Kitchener where I grew up, there's a ski hill, 200 vertical feet called Chikapee, which is a tiny hill. But it taught me and everybody I know how to ski. So once we could, I had a girlfriend who worked on cruise ships. She got a job, I had a girlfriend. She got a job working on cruise ships. She left. I was 19 years old. I said, well, this is my chance to move west. So I moved west to British Columbia and lived in Whistler, British Columbia, which is a ski town. Yeah, sure is. I went and applied at the Holiday Inn there. And because I got the job and because I knew the systems, I was training people my first day. So I quickly became a front desk manager. So I was a 19 year old front desk manager of this hotel in this resort town, which got me, I was able to swap, I was able to give away free rooms. So for a powerful position. Very powerful position. I feel like that's a little hidden TV show that would be huge. What you possibly could have seen working behind the desk at a hotel? Yeah. I mean, I spent a lot of time in hotels. That's one of the things I think about it a lot. Some of these hotels, I've been just working here. The stories. Well, I worked on cruise ships after that. That's even there's two. Are you kidding me? Let's get to that. Because the cool thing about Whistler was I was able to give away these free hotel rooms did. And then I had backdoor access to everything. I was given free meals at all the best restaurants. One of my best buddies, older brothers, came into town for a visit. He's like, you'd like the godfather around here. That's a great hookup to how to even think about that. If you've got a buddy who works at desk at a hotel table, hey, I got some friends coming in, man, they need a place to stay. Because hotels, they keep rooms back off to the side. Yeah, exactly. Especially in a ski resort. Yeah. Well, and in Whistler, everything is so expensive. Yeah. And it's so hard, especially during a high peak season, actually took Hunter for his third, what was it? 12th birthday or something? Yeah, it was around there. To Whistler. They more specific, man. You had a great up, man. Yeah. I think everybody had a microphone over here and he's all grown up now. We didn't get it that time. And a badass childhood. And it was packed. It was so hard to get a hotel room because we were going during spring break. So it was just impossible to get a room. You had to pay out the wazoo. Yeah, it was good times. I'd always schedule myself for after three o'clock. So I would ski all morning and then ski into work, basically. Oh my gosh. What a life. Yeah, it was good. It wasn't really good for the liver. I feel like at that age, though, your liver is totally ready for that, though. Yeah. And prepared for it at a certain time for a certain endeavor in life there. Yeah. And then you went to a cruise ship? Well, then in 2001, I got a job in Vancouver opening a hotel, a Hilton Hotel. And that was the first job I ever got fired from for... There was this lovely lady that I started dating that was under me. Miss Hinton? She was under you, huh? No. Oh, no. On the hierarchy, I managed her. Yeah. That's not the way to put it. That didn't fly. Actually, the first time I got the line there is, this isn't Whistler Trevor. Oh. But that was a great thing. I moved back to Ontario for a little bit. Weighted tables. That's the only time I've waited tables, which is a lot of fun. And then moved back to Vancouver, worked at a hotel again for a bit. Then got fired from that. Same reason. I learned about weighting tables. I learned there that I never have to worry about what I'm going to do in life because I could always fall back to weighting tables and love it. Because you can make great money. Hotel's already taught me a lot about customers. I heard people swear about it at a certain age and they'll tell people, so yeah, what is it? You learn something, there's something there, right? You just... Yeah, it's just... It's great money. It's... you're in and out. It's fun if you're working with the right team. It's not how to deal with people. Yeah. I mean, you learn a lot about yourself and how to deal with people. Yeah. Because when you're dealing with people in their food, it's different, right? It's a change of things. Yeah. Well, I think that food and hotels, like I think just... Especially when people are going to a place like Whistler, this is the trip they've planned for for a lifetime. They're finally there. The gift of being able to make somebody happy and be a good host in whatever situation, I think that's kind of like a secret thing that has led to my success even in the way I met you guys. Sure. And being a crucial actor on a lot of ways. Oh, yeah. Like just being able to host somebody, make them feel comfortable in your space, make them feel super important. You can tell. Yeah. There's some things to that because a lot of people don't know how to host. No. But working hotels, because of Marcus's work, we've gone to... I can't even count how many hotels. And you can immediately tell who's really good at customer service and who just sucks and was never trained to do that. It's almost... The best way I can explain is just walking in somebody's house when you walk into where there's a lady living in there. And it smells like bed, bath, and beyond. And there's food prepped everywhere. And anything you ask for, and everyone's polite and like there's managers in there. And it's like walking into a house like that. And then you can walk into some hotels and they'll be like, man, you know, there's not even a shower curtain or some blood on the ground. Yeah. You know, you two are incredible hosts. This house is amazing. We love doing it. It's amazing. It's amazing. It's mind blowing. I already sent videos home of that guest room, which is a thousand times better than my master bedroom. Thank you. This place is designed for the guests. Well, we know how it is to be on the road. And you want to just feel comfortable when you go somewhere. And that is definitely a gift. When you can walk into some of those hotels and you'd rather be there. Yeah. Like you don't want to leave. You want to leave? Yeah. I've wanted to set up a shop and I feel, man, but we got them. And it's not the ones you think either. Yeah. I mean, you hear the big names and all that. Yeah. And they have some too. But then there's places out there that are just and it's all who runs it. Yeah. It's all who runs it. Man, we stayed at this one. What was the vault? It wasn't a hotel. It was just like an old and we're saying road tripping to us. So, um, oh my gosh. People take these old houses and old hotels and refine them and turn them into like an old theater, old caret house and make them in a hotel. Man. There's another TV show too. Just figuring out where all those places are. What was that called? It's in Tucson, Arizona. The vault. What was it called? The vault. Yeah, the vault. I'll never forget it. Wow. Don't shake your head like that. And I'm sure there was two called the vault. I don't think it was called the vault, but it was something like that. Well, I thought that was cool. And I remembered it. It's something like that. Anyway, it has like six rooms and it's really freaking cool. Um, but yeah. Anyway, okay. So you like that, but that customer service thing, like that's we're looking at when we're talking in my current business, which is giving psychedelics to people, like how do you find somebody to replace me who's been doing it for 10 years so that I can come to Texas and do podcast kind of thing. And yes, you want somebody who understands the medicine, but in working with the business partners on what do we need? I'm like, we need somebody who's worked at a hotel before. We need somebody who's really good at hosting and customer service. And that's in fact what we call the role now is the hosting role. Yeah, you can, you, you walked them through the kind of therapeutic aspects of preparing and things like that, but are they genuinely a good host? Yeah. I think it's a great gift that's been giving the hotel. The hotel, the hotel, the hotel, the hotel, the hotel, the hotel, the family, the hotel and the home family. It makes all of that, like a Thanksgiving attitude. And I mean, that's the kind of environment you developed. Yeah. And you're obviously even being raised in a good sturdy household, you know, good loving family that's that you're walking along those two. Yeah, for sure. It's like walking, the difference between walking into a fraternity house. Yeah. You know, hospital. There's just a friggin' difference. So tell me about working on a cruise ship. Yeah. So first thing is I sold websites for a while. People always told me I'd be good at selling. And then I watched the .com thing happen in the late 90s. And I was like, I said, these guys are making money out of nowhere. How do I get a piece of that? So then April 2001 is actually when .bomb happened. And that's when I slipped in and got a job selling technology. And then that turned into a company that broadcast auctions on the internet and was actually quite successful. And it was then while working there that I said, people had always said, I had this girlfriend I mentioned who worked on ships. I had another really good buddy who worked on ships and they'd always said, Trevor, you'd be great on ships. You should do this. So I finally applied. I was probably 30 or 33 or something. And I got a job in the lowest rung on the entertainment department, which is basically playing pictionary for a living. So talk about that. What's it actually like being on a cruise ship? But I mean, on a cruise ship to the, is there a bunch of y'all? Yeah. Who's the lowest man? Yeah. So is the captain like the king out there? The captain is the king. And then the lowest man is probably this crew staff position. 50 bucks a day is what I got paid. But you get your food obviously and your board. It's great food too, right? Or your room. Yeah. Yeah. It's good initially. And then it's the same food every week. But you can't complain. And then, but it was my goal to get on the ship. And I told everybody I'll be a cruise director within a year, which is in charge of the entertainment department and two down from the captain as far as authority in a safety situation. I guess we're walking on a boat. Yeah. You got the biggest grass. Yeah. So I said I'll be a cruise director within a year. All my friends said that's impossible. I became cruise director within eight months. You want to know the easiest way to get premium quality meat? Dancers budget box. They offer the same prices, if not better, than your local grocery stores. But they deliver straight to your doorstep for no additional cost. They also provide recipe inspiration, tips and tricks along with each shipment so you can whip up the tastiest meals right in your kitchen. I love how convenient butcher box is. I've even got a curated box filled with all kinds of meats and seafood shipped to my house every six weeks. 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He's like, oh, the one guy everybody on the ship knows. Yeah, it was... I did that for about four years. I'll just... Good morning ladies and gentlemen and welcome to beautiful St. Thomas. We have a wonderful day in store for you here on the MS Nord Am. Incredible singers and dancers on stage ladies and night. Yeah, just yeah. So does that come with like the one MC and when it was in the room and stuff like that? Yeah, that was me. That was so funny. What cruise line was it? I started with Holland America Line and then did a stint on Princess 2. Nice. And it's its own little culture too. There are people who... So talking about doing a TV show or something, there was actually, I heard a production company came on board and wanted to do a reality TV show about working on cruise ships. And Holland America Line saw the footage and said, no way. We can't let this out. Because it's crazy, like it's just, it's 50 cent beers in the crew bar. I don't drink anymore. And part of it is because of the way I drank on cruise ships I think. Like I... The first day I got on the ship, they put me to work right away hosting events and stuff. Then they said, get into your night gear, got into my jacket, meet me in the cruise director's office. And then he said, all right, now we're going to go to the officer's bar. So he just said the office and walked down to the front of the ship and it was the officer's bar. So drank three corona's before doing the night duties, drink beers while you're doing the night duties. And then go party in the crew bar afterwards, woke up hung over the next day, did it all again, woke up hung over the next day. And I said to myself, if I'm not careful, this is going to be the new normal. And sure enough, that hung over feeling was just the new normal for four months at a time. No days off, always going. But a lot of fun. Yeah, I feel like there's certain jobs out there at certain ages that you get into just for like a few skipped college. Yeah. You know, there's something out there. Yeah. So did you and your girlfriend stay together? I met, no, that girlfriend, no, we're still friends. But I met the woman who I married who became my first, my only first wife so far. Keep it that way. Trust me, you want to say it? My only wife so far. I'm with Brianna now who's not married yet, but it'll probably come soon. Aww. But we won't tell anybody. Yeah, y'all tell them about it. So Becky is, was a singer on cruise ships? We're still incredible friends. We actually threw a happy divorce party. Oh my gosh. When we, when we went our own separate ways. Well, there you go. She actually, she actually, that never heard of that. She actually came for an Ibogaine treatment not too long ago. Oh wow. It was beautiful having her. She had a crazy experience on her Ibogaine. She, she's very kind of flamboyant. She was Ruby and I were sitting for her. She said, oh, I see this. Oh, and she's getting freaked out. And she goes, oh, the queen's here. She's English. She's like, oh, I wonder what the queen's doing here. Weird. And then I went in and saw her the next day. She had a beautiful experience and she said, yeah, it all makes sense. But what was the queen doing here? That was so weird. She was there in a blue dress hanging onto her purse, just waving at me. I go out, hop in my Jeep, turn on the radio. The queen died last night. That gave back to us. Nice. Oh my gosh. She's from England and lives in Windsor where the queen's cast. Oh my gosh. Residence is. Because we chose. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of things in this line of work. This chills. That's the third time you said give me chills. I know. I've been getting them. Okay, so you come off the boat. Okay, so there's backstory. So in 2001, after 9-11, I was super, I forgot about the .com happening the same year we got hit. Yeah. You know that? Yeah. Because we were coming through the 90s and everything was everything. Yeah, it was bad ass. We were going, I mean that was right. Yeah. I remember that part of our life being great. Nothing was wrong in the world. Nothing. No. Nothing. You were riding high for all of the 80s and 90s. I very vividly remember that. Yeah. And when I run into our generation, they talk about that. Yeah. I think you're born 76. Five. Five, yeah. I mean, we had a great childhood. Yeah. And then I forgot about the .com bus. But I remember seeing everybody on the streets and hearing all that stuff and I forgot about that. Remember when everybody thought that the world was going to end at Y2K? We just got out of college. And what was Y2K? And then we just got out of college and no one could find a job. Of course, I don't think anybody at a college was finding a job. That's still a thing, right? Yeah, I think that's what we were saying. Everybody was saying we were going to be horrible. Our generation was whatever. And that happened and then we got hit. I forgot about that, man. Yeah. And that changed everybody's perspective. And that changed me. And I was very sad and distraught with the state of the world. But I'm Canadian. It didn't make sense to join the military. But I was very, a line was drawn in the sand and said this world is messed up. I'm going to try and do something about it. And that went along with other books that I had been reading and learning that the happiest people seemed to be giving back a heck of a lot more than I was at the time. So I was new to Vancouver at the time. And there's a neighborhood in Vancouver called the downtown East Side, which is the poorest postal code in Canada. It's abject poverty for about a six block radius. Driving through there, it's like driving through areas of San Francisco kind of thing, but just tent cities and abject drug use. It's a lot worse now than it was then. But I always had compassion for people who used drugs. I had used drugs growing up and felt that kudos to my parents. I didn't have any traumatic childhood I was self-medicating with. And my mother was always very adamant about addiction. She's like, don't do that. You'll get addicted. Don't do that. You'll get addicted. Decept everything at a relatively safe distance, but always had compassion for people who fell a little deeper. And I just started looking at how I might be able to help that neighborhood and how I could give back. So I volunteered down there a little bit, but essentially it turned into about a 10 year project where I just went down when I could. I knew I had no true skills to offer the situation. Like I didn't go to school for whatever, social work, whatever. But I thought maybe that would be an asset, maybe I'd be able to find a new way to help. And in 2005, right after I got off cruise ships, oh no, that was 2005, before I went on cruise ships, the tech company I worked for, I sold some stock options at a good time, had a bit of money, went to Costa Rica for four months, learned how to surf, came back and said, I'm going to do what I can to help the downtown east side. So I actually moved in down there, really dug in for a month, I lasted a month, really tried to dig in to see what could be done, made contact then with Van Du, which is the Vancouver area network of drug users, and saw what harm reduction could do, and learned a lot in that period. But then ran out of money, got the job on cruise ships, got married, moved back to Vancouver, and once I had a job and was a bit stable again, started looking at how I could help the downtown east side again. So the lady who started Van Du is a woman by the name of Anne Livingston, she's kind of a legend down there as far as the amazing thing that she's pulled off, things that she's pulled off, and I arranged a meeting with her. And during that meeting with her, which she graciously took, and we chatted for about three hours, and I basically said, look, I'm just looking at how I can give back. What do you think the neighborhood needs? Is there anything I could offer? And we didn't think very much in the first couple hours, but then there was a binder on the wall on a shelf just like the one behind you, and it said I'm a gain on it. And I said, what about I'm a gain? And she said, actually, I have people calling me for that all the time. And I had heard about it. So my experience with psychedelics started relatively early. The first time I ever consumed LSD, I was 14 years old. And it was just, it was, had you said to me a year before that that that was going to happen, I would have said no. I was totally just say no to drugs. I was completely indoctrinated into that. But then a guy who made a lot of LSD in the 60s, Nick Sand, he was running away from the law enforcement in the Bay Area and moved to Canada and set up shop in the mid 90s in Canada and made millions of hits of acid with a guy who's now a friend named Peter Vanderhaden. So that just ended up in my high school and in my hand. And innocently on my way to a movie, I took half of this, I was going to meet some friends. And that was my first experience with psychedelics. And I didn't, I had no idea. What was that even like? It was just kind of fun and nice. And the word I would use now that wouldn't have been available to me then is enlightening. Like it just felt as though I had no idea that there was a therapeutic component to psychedelics then. Not to interrupt you. Listen to me, what does psychedelic mean? Psychedelic means, so psyche, if you look in the Oxford English Dictionary, the first definition is soul. The next set definition is mind. So we know the word psyche. And then delic comes from the Greek delos, which means to manifest. So psychedelic actually means soul or mind manifesting. That's something like mental exercise. Which is exactly what it does, right? It's a perfect word for it. It's got a lot of baggage. It's got a lot of baggage. That's right. But it's a perfect word for it. And we're kind of in a time in our country right now where a lot of words have a lot of baggage. And I never understood what that meant. Yeah. Right? And to your attach to one. Yeah, right. And I, because when people say it and they start talking about like, man, you know, there are things down here you can take to go have a fun time and do all that. Some of this stuff is not. Yeah. Well in this new psychedelic renaissance, there are some people who are, we're very much responsible for that renaissance. And one of them is Rick Doblin, who's a friend of mine. He started maps, the multi-disciplinary association of psychedelic studies. I served on the board of directors for maps Canada. But in hearing stories from him, I think it was, but there were, there were a bunch of them who were advancing psychedelics and they actually had the conversation. Like what word should we use? And they, they knew that psychedelic had a lot of baggage. But they, they went back to it and they said, it's actually the best word. We just need to rebrand it. And that's what's happening now. So I experienced LSD at that age and didn't know about the potential therapeutic effects. But I remember saying to my buddies when we were taking it one day, I'm like, this is what adults have forgotten that has made the world so screwed up. So even though I didn't know about the therapeutic potential, the therapeutic potential was coming through nonetheless. Did your friends take it too? Yeah. Did they have it? Yeah, that was my first time. And then there was just a bunch of it after that for a little while. And then it tapered off and we didn't anymore. But there were a couple of summers there, one summer in particular that was a lot of fun. Did anybody have any bad trips with it? You know, you can get into those kind of fearful feedback loops at certain points, but especially if you're around a lot of friends who love you, you can kind of pull somebody through that. You know, as I would say today within the context I work with psychedelics that, you know, there isn't really a bad trip. There's challenging situations and can you learn from them? What do they have to teach you? That's what it all is. Yeah. That's another one of those things. People don't know how to explain something. They'll throw a term on it that kind of suits it. But in reality, man, the way I explain something and the way you're completely different, you know what I'm saying? Sometimes I'll be sitting there listening and I'll be like, I hear what you're saying and I even get it. I wouldn't explain it like that, but I completely understand what you're saying. And when with some of the deal, just the way the people come out of that. And then when you hear people say, like, now when someone tells you they've been to hell on that stuff and you know, because you've been there, you're like, oh, I know what that is. It's terrifying. True. It's like, yeah. Yeah. But then you definitely pull something out of it. Yeah. I've learned, I was telling you guys before, I've done Iowaska a dozen times, ten of those were the hell experience. And then I finally got the lesson, you know, but there was a lesson. I'd call every single one of those a bad trip. You know, it wasn't enjoyable at all. But then there was a golden nugget inside of all of it. So when you saw the sign that said I have again, did you know what that was or I Boga? That's the first, I just got a question. Is that the first time you'd ever seen the word or heard about it? No. So exposure when I was super young to psychedelics moved to Whistler. I think in Whistler, we had mushrooms sometimes moved to Vancouver. Another incredible coincidence. I was an Aussie buzzy buddy was visiting Vancouver. We watched fear and loathing in Las Vegas. I happen to mention to him, oh, I haven't had psychedelics in a while. Be cool to find some. The very next day I'm walking down commercial drive in Vancouver and there's a shop across the street called the Urban Shaman. And I'm like, there's no way. I know what shamans do. They wouldn't have anything like that in there, would they? And sure enough, they sold a bunch of legal entheogens like Salvia Divinorum is the one I tried that day. But then I hung out at that shop. It had an area with a bean bag chair. A lot of cool people came through. I actually became dear friends with the woman that owned it and became her roommate. She had a daughter that she wouldn't really trust anybody else to live there. But I lived there and we're all still super close. Then it was in that shop, I first heard of a boga. And I heard of a boga, this African psychedelic that I was poor at the time. And it cost $500 for a dose and put you on a 24 hour long journey. I'm like, no way. I'm never trying that stuff, ironically. And I heard kind of just, had heard that it's good for drug addiction then, heard that it was good at getting people off heroin, but it didn't really click. And then when I was sitting there in that room and I saw Ibogaine on the wall, like, what about Ibogaine? Because one of the biggest problems in the downtown east side is people using opiates and getting physically addicted to opiates. And she said, yeah, I'm getting calls all the time for it because there had been an Ibogaine was legal in Canada when I started working with it. And there had been another Ibogaine provider who had shut down, but the website was still up and said, if people are looking for information, you might want to call Ann. So people were calling her and she said, well, let me follow that thread. And then anytime she got a call from that point forward, she would forward it to me. And I gave it to a couple of people right out of the gate. The first, this is crazy to talk about. The first person I ever gave Ibogaine to was a 72-year-old man who wanted to quit smoking. Oh my gosh. And then that same night, his 69-year-old partner, who was the one who actually called and was seeking it. And Ibogaine's potentially dangerous. That's why it's kind of the dark horse of the psychedelic world. Potentially. Yeah. And I'm just super lucky nobody got hurt. And I saw really quickly, I didn't know what I was doing. So the phone still rang, but I basically said, you need to go to Mexico. If you are going to do it on your own, here's what little I know and tread carefully. And then... Did the guy stop smoking? I think he did, yeah. Did you scare the shit out of him? I didn't give him enough medicine. He was moving around. Oh my gosh. He was moving around and in this dream world, between worlds. And the crazy thing is, it seemed to be going nice and smooth. And then this woman was like, oh, well maybe I'll just do it then. Oh my gosh. So I gave it to both of them. And then he started moving and then I'm like, ah. But after years of seeking for purpose, I remember we rented this crappy little hotel room in Vancouver to do it. But I remember just as things got launched, I stepped out onto the balcony overlooking Vancouver and I had this, this is what I was supposed to be doing. Like it was so clear. Like the medicine spoke to me. I hadn't even done it yet. That's the other crazy thing. Because these are cardinal sins in the psychedelic world. They still give people medicine unless you've done it. Especially Ibogaine. But then I, in 2012, I got a call from Ann Livingston, that same woman. And she said, hey, did you know there's an Ibogaine providers conference in town? And I didn't know. And she said, well, I put your name on the list as a provider. You should go down. So that is where I met Jonathan Dickinson, who was organizing that conference. And he's now my current business partner in what we're doing now. But I bought a t-shirt from him. I've still got that t-shirt. And I met a whole bunch of people who did know what they were doing with Ibogaine. And one of those guys became my business partner in my first business, giving Ibogaine Liberty Root Therapy Limited. He had been to Mexico and apprentice with people on how to give the medicine. And it was very clear that he wanted to work with the medicine. I wasn't so sure because of the experiences I had had. But I said, when the phone rings the next time, let's see what we can do. So the phone rang. It was a father calling on behalf of his 28-year-old and 32-year-old sons, both addicted to heroin and the 28-year-old's girlfriend. And we treated the 28-year-olds one weekend and then the 32-year-old a couple of weekends later. It went really well. We looked at each other. We said, there's obviously a need for this. And we started, we found a house and dedicated it to towards giving people Ibogaine to help them get off opiates. Ibogaine is the only substance we know of that you can take somebody who is in physical opiate withdrawal. So getting addicted to opiates is not like getting addicted to other substances. A lot of other substances, there's just a psychological addiction. With opiates, it's actually a physical addiction. So as you take opiates in your own ability to produce endorphins, which is our natural opiates, that gets shut down. So if you don't take the opiate, then you don't have the painkiller in you. And there's a pain to gravity that we don't notice because we all have endorphins taking away that pain. That's the best way I've ever heard I explain that. Yeah, life is painful. Life is painful. As soon as you're born in here, there is a pressure. And then you put weight on. Yes. You literally put weight on you. So there is that too. No one ever explains that part is that the opioid has been jerked out away. Yeah. You're walking out. You're not going to be in the endogenous opiates anymore. And then if you don't get those opiates from outside again, all of a sudden you feel the pain of gravity again. And it's painful. And it comes with flu-like symptoms. And it's just worse. Is that what people would describe fibromyalgia or something like that? Like a constant chronic pain that's really not for a specific reason? Maybe. Ibogaine's good for fibromyalgia. Okay. But I hear just the worst flu you've ever had. It's the worst. Yeah. Coming off of opiates. Yeah. Coming off of opiates. After surgery, get on those and you've got to quit. It's having the flu and then the shakes and the trimmers and there's these little aches and pains and it's- And the depression. Yeah, and there's a roller coaster ride of all that and it's a non-stop. Yeah. You know, nausea and man is just the worst for days. So Ibogaine was really discovered in the Western world. The ability to get people off opiates was a gentleman by the name of Howard Lott's Off in 1962 in New York City. He was addicted to heroin. He was having lunch with a chemist friend who said, hey, you should try this Ibogaine stuff. I've had it in my freezer for a while. Gave it to him. He tried it. He had no idea what he was getting in for. Basically went on this horrific 24-hour journey. Came out the other end and said, wow, I'm never going to try that again. But then all of a sudden noticed this piece within him and he realized, wow, I haven't wanted heroin the whole time I've been on this nor do I want it now. So that's when its anti-addictive properties were discovered. So that primarily what we did in Vancouver was treat people for opioid use disorder. We treated a few vets through that time as well. But we treated about 200 people from 2012 through until 2017 and then Health Canada changed the regulatory status of Ibogaine in Canada. So I wasn't able to legally work with it there. Why would they change it if it was helping people? So it was actually wise because Ibogaine, the reason I was able to legally work with it is it was, and there was still a bit of gray area I was navigating for sure. But the reason it was, I was able to is because it was listed as a natural health product. And like vitamin C is a natural health product, ginkgo, biloba, and a natural health product shouldn't be potentially dangerous. And Ibogaine is so... Well, enough of a key. Just like vitamin C and aspirin. Yeah, I guess those could be too, right? Yeah, everything. But Health Canada... I think life is designed to kill us. It is. Yeah, well the only true cause of death is birth. Boom, right there. You learn how to live. What you actually coming in here to die. Yeah, exactly. Or actually we start dying the minute you're born. So you have an experienced death that's just kind of stretched out. How about that? Let's do it that way. That's awesome. Instead they put it on the prescription drug list. So they didn't make it a little bit cool. What category? It was cool. Just on the prescription drug list, but it has not gone through clinical trials yet, so it doesn't have a drug identifier number. How would you even... So you can't get it. I still can't prescribe it. Yeah, I can't even imagine how they would do that. Yeah. Yeah, there's some people working on clinical trials for Ibogaine. We'll see. Well I can understand now because you know you got the testing and then there's the... It always the word of mouth, right? Yeah. The minute it helps somebody, starting with the dog. Well yeah, I think the biggest thing that's happened to Ibogaine is sadly, just because of the state of the world, not people see addiction as something that somebody has chosen for themselves and then therefore they deserve it. Yeah. But a more enlightened way of seeing it would be people have suffered a lot of trauma. All of a sudden they experience a substance that takes away that pain and that becomes very attractive and then they become physically addicted to it. Did you know that GoodRx has resources to support better mental health? From educational tools to prescription savings, GoodRx is here to help you along your mental health journey. 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So it's not their fault, but for people to say that they just kind of have a pass, I'm like, yeah, that's not how it works. Some of them, I didn't have a choice. I got hurt and then you get on it. Right. Well, I mean, for people that are listening, I mean, Marcus had multiple surgeries. The pain pills that were prescribed post surgery, that is what it became an addiction. Well, if I wouldn't take them, then I would always be in pain that wouldn't heal. So the doctors got to take these to hold you down and I can understand that cycle. I could also how people who aren't injured who just take them for fun and they get on that sucker. I was like, hey, man, that's tough. Yeah. Like I had to do that all the time and it was an ass kicker. Right. But you would have never taken those if it weren't. No. And I was always wanting to get off of them. That was the thing, man. It's a never, it was a cycle for me because by the time I got off, I might have to have another surgery. I got over for me. And then that's the other thing is in the mid 90s, Purdue came out with Oxycontin and marketed it like crazy to doctors and said it was a non-addictive pain killer. Yeah. Wow. Which they've been sued and I don't think Purdue's around anymore. But lots of, I wonder if they're around anymore. But that's how people get addicted is so many of these doctors were just shoving these in people's mouths. Sure. Because you take that warning that it might be addictive. You can give it without the ride. You can give that substance with, you know, just take the pain away. It won't give you that calm. Yeah. I didn't know that. But then people would crush it up, snort it. Yeah. There's always something. But where I was going is Ibogaine is good for addiction. Sadly, people who are addicted to substances are not the highest priority of whatever aspect of society decides soldiers, however, veterans, however, who are now finding that Ibogaine is fixing all the pain of conflict, everything that happened to them while they were deployed seems to be helping with traumatic brain injuries. Now people are like, oh, let's look at this Ibogaine thing because, you know, you're talking about a different echelon of people within society. I think that's the best thing that's happened to Ibogaine in the last 10 years is you guys going through the experience. Well, I was listening to you talk earlier when you're talking about, hey, I hadn't done psychedelics in a while. I'll see if there's a shop. In my mind, it's like, hey, I hadn't had a brain surgery in a while. Let's see if there's a doctor around. It's that kind of severity to me. But what we're talking about in the levels of there are medicines out here that are designed for you to have a good time on your wine and spirits and everything like that. And there's medicines down here that already fix you. Yeah, personally, I would never call Ibogaine a drug. It's in medicine. Yeah, put on that, man. And because I'm not pro drug at all. I've never had been. I'm definitely one of the say no to drug kids. And I just, I don't understand it. But medicine, I understand. And now I hate the idea of prescription medicine. I hate the idea of having to take something all of the time for an illness or whatever. So yeah, because that's not to see that you can't take it all down. If there is, if there is a cure for something, which is very rare, we hear the word cure anymore. There's always something for you to take forever. And with Marcus, with other veterans that I've seen, and I've seen so many that were either became addicted to opiates because of surgeries, not that they were just people that wanted to pop them for fun, but they were kind of forced into this addiction. And they sometimes start kept taking them because it numbed. Because they worked. They worked. And it numbeds some kind of trauma or whatever. It becomes a mind thing too, I think. But this medicine gets them off of it and they never want to take them. It's like, hey, this is in. God was the pharmacist on this. And he's like, hey, I'm not here to get you strung out on something. I'm here to cure you, fix you and get you a hiccup on the way, take that and boom. I mean, he did it like that. What's so fascinating to me though is it's not just for veterans and not just for addicts. This can actually help other people, like young ladies that have been raped, that have had some sort of traumatic experience or young men. I mean, doesn't have to put a gender on this. There are men and women that have had traumatic experiences in their life that it might not be an opiate addiction or alcoholism, but they have some crutch, whether it's an eating disorder or there's something that they make up for having experienced trauma. And I would gain can help that. That's incredible to me. And why aren't we talking about it more as a society? And I heard it on the news. I was telling you earlier last night, they were talking about Aaron Rodgers and they kind of laughed at him going to seek healing and Costa Rica and called it this ceremony where you puke or whatever. Yes, you might puke, but it's healing him. We're talking about something that's life changing and that is not only life changing, but healing, it's making someone better. Yeah. You know, when you get sick and you throw up, you're not getting sick, you're getting better. Yeah. That's what the throwing up part is. The fever and throwing up, you're actually getting better. The sick part of it. I'm afraid. Yeah. Yeah. But if we could as a society, like you started this because you started to get into it because you wanted to make the world a better place and you wanted to help. You had a soft spot for the addicts that were in the neighborhood that had a high concentration of that. Think of all of those 10 cities around the world. Think of not only those, but think of all the people that have had trauma and how they treat their wives or their husbands because of that trauma, all of the divorces that happen, the generational chains that go along with trauma, this can stop that. This can heal our entire generation if we're open to it. Yeah. That's pretty powerful. Yeah. It has this amazing quality of reset. It's like people who suffer trauma and have those post-traumatic stress symptoms, it seems to be able to press reset on their nervous system and give them an opportunity to not run those same hellish patterns anymore. And yet, it's not just soldiers. We have treated people for eating disorder successfully. It's just angry people. One of the biggest things that I'm seeing in the vets that I'm treating is they're tired of the rage that they have for no reason they are losing their shit on people. And that's one of the biggest things that Abigail seems to be able to help them with is they just, they're chilled out on the airport, on the way home for the first time in decades. It's very good at treating depression and lifting people out of that. So many of the, I have a friend, Dr. Gabor Maté, who has a book that's out right now. I think it's probably on the bestseller list called The Myth of Normal. And that's what he's saying. He's a doctor that focuses on people's trauma. And he's saying, just because of the world we've grown up in, nobody does not suffer from trauma. There's a myth of normal. It shouldn't be this way. We shouldn't be stimulating the way we are. So it's really able to take that, just the pain of everyday life and give everybody a reset. And a metaphor I often use is it's like, as we live life, we're seeing life through a pain of glass, like a filter. And as our heart gets broken, as we suffer traumas, big traumas, small traumas, that glass gets dirty. And it gets so dirty that we don't even recognize it's dirty anymore. And what these psychedelic substances seem to be able to do is clean that glass from the inside out. I don't feel like they bring you some missing piece of the puzzle and then you're finally healed. I think it's just cleaning that filter out again. And then once that filter's clean, it's like, oh, actually, life is awesome. Right. I saw on, because I follow the vets social media, the veteran solution, social media. And I saw there was a post about, there was an article about special forces being healed by the medicine or breaking alcoholic addiction. And there was a comment on there, someone commented, yeah, give a crutch for a crutch. And that made me so mad. I was like, it's not a crutch, because it's not something you continue to do. Yeah. And I didn't comment on it, but I just kept thinking to myself, gosh, I wish I could tell that person if this isn't a crutch for a crutch. This is a healing for something that's broken. And I don't know, I feel like so many people need to hear that. This isn't a drug for a drug or one drug to get rid of another. This is a medicine to stop a pattern that's going downhill. Yeah. So if you look at schedule one, so Ibogaine's on schedule one, which means it has no medical use and that it's got a high rate of abuse. And the Ibogaine obviously has a medical use. It's helping people get off trauma. Yeah. And it's got a high rate of abuse. There's nobody abusing Ibogaine. It's one of the most unpleasant drugs you could imagine. But so I think that in getting, I think that would be, I think rescheduling Ibogaine in the United States is a lot of way of putting that. Yeah. Who does that? There's no way to put out unpleasant. That's like a risk. Who schedules that? Who's in part of it? The DA. The DA. Yeah. I think you have a brother that might be. I'm going to call some of them up, man. I'm like, hey, guys, you know, it's big. You know what happens, they label them because they're going to step forward. And it doesn't need to be in schedule one, which makes it really hard to research it. That's the biggest pain in the ass is it just makes it super hard and lots of red tape in order to research Ibogaine properly. But if you change the scheduling, which shouldn't be that hard and only makes sense because it's not scheduled properly. Yeah. Yeah. Anybody seen the matrix? Yeah, we've all seen the matrix. When you plug into that. Yeah. When he sits down front of that mirror and I put my fingers in front of the mirror and then it sucked you through there. It wasn't someone I was sitting with says like, imagine sucking through a keyhole backwards. There's so many analogies. That's the best. It gives you, it's like each person that goes through it, it gives you one to tell everybody. Like they say this. Yeah. Because when you say it, it resonates with me. I mean, like it just kind of does, right? And when I went in there, it just, I'd never done any drugs or anything like that to where it would separate all three of my mind, body and spirit to go work on me. And if you don't know that that's happening, it can be weird. And weird is the only word I got. But then it's individual. Like I'm a fighter. So it had to grip my attention. And it got my, and the way you do that is to whip my ass real bad. And it did that to me. And so it got my respect and my attention. And we were kind of talking about that earlier. It was like some people, they'll act a certain way. That's because an alpha's walked in. And one of those suckers walked in, you know it. And that's what I would gain is an alpha. I mean, physically it made you feel sick. No, it's not. When you say whip your ass, like for someone that's never heard of this medicine or that has no idea, how do you explain how you felt in that moment? Okay. So everyone knows my history and what I've been through in life. And when I tell you I get my ass whipped, it means getting thrown off and out and everybody dying. That's an ass whipping to me. To tell you this thing, whip my ass, it's equal to that. Yes. This is what it did to me. In every regard, mind, body and spirit. To get my attention. At what point did you come out of it where you were like, what the fuck did I just go through? It took me to the all the way to the bottom. The whole time it was weird. I mean, I've never, I need to really think about how to explain it. Because you know, I'll have once it gives me the ability to explain it in that regard. I think it's so interesting. And this is something that we say to people is that, you know, Ibogaine has the potential to keep working on you and with you. It's like you come and do the medicine and it's like a seed is planted and then things start out holding. And it's six months later that things are really interesting. You're in a completely different spot. How about that? Yeah. You still are getting insights from it. How about that? Yeah. And you were just about anybody I'd met. Hey, when it gives you options, like when you're sitting there in a scenario, presents itself and then these options start running in your head of what can go down, that's a different world altogether. It's the most magnificent, I've studied, trained my whole life and I can't, I can't explain what it's like having a teacher there with you at all times. But I mean, it's like you, you got to show respect. You got to do what it says. When you said to me early, it's like, hey, I have a relationship with it. I do. I never heard it put like that, but that's what that is. And everybody who goes through it does that. It's like volunteering for something. Yeah. When you walk in there and you don't have any idea what it is, that's why it's so important when they say, hey man, what are your intentions? I didn't understand what that was either until it put it in my head. It's like, okay, so when you were working security at the bar, it's like when I was a bouncer at all these bars and people would walk up to me. Normally I could see their intentions walking up. Yeah. Right. And I'm like, hey, what are your intentions when you walk in and you're here to have a good time or you're here to call me some problems? It's like that. It's like, why do you want to come in here? That's why you can't abuse, I will gain. No. It's like going up and talking smack to your granddad or somebody who really knows its business. Yeah. Because you think you know it. You think you have a grip on what this place is down here. But hmm. Yeah. That's one of the biggest kind of ways I prepare people is you can't fight with this. You know, you, I've seen guys. Man, I was treated a guy. It literally looked like he was wrestling. He was like, he just was not allowing it to just take him. And I just went up to him and whispered, I'm like, dude, just let it win. You know, don't do this to yourself. That's when I see people suffer through Ibogaine is when they're trying to make it stop before it's ready to stop. Otherwise it's totally doable. And I feel like that's horrible marketing. Marcus the Trel, who has gone through the worst thing a human being could ever go through is comparing Ibogaine to it. It's not, it's not, it's different. But it's for each individual. Each individual. Yeah. Each individual has their own experience. But for someone who has no idea what any of this kind of talk means, when you're going through this, it's what like a 14 hour, 24 hour mental. Yeah, first 12 hours is kind of where the bells and whistles are. If you're going to have visions, which not everybody does, but everybody does generally see some kind of benefit. But it's kind of the first 12 hours of where the bells and whistles are. And the next 12 hours kind of thing, you're just as tired as you've ever been, but you can't fall asleep. So you're laying, you're physically laying down this entire time. Yeah. For about 24 hours. Okay. So you're taking it like a pill, you're taking a pill at sundown or so. Yeah. So the way we work is we bring people down. We get everybody groups of up to five people generally for this protocol. It's different if we're detoxing somebody off drugs. But for this protocol, we'll pick them up on a, let's say on Monday, we do a traditional Mexican sweat lodge that day at Te Mascau, which is a great way to kick off the week. That's how warriors in that tradition would prepare for battle. So I say there's three peaks this week. There's the first peak is the Te Mascau. Then the next day, there's some breath work in the morning. It's great to connect with your breath before you do Ibogaine. Some group work to prepare. We've got an onsite therapist. I'm generally there as well. And then some food, kind of your last meal before the Ibogaine at lunchtime. Massage therapy in the afternoon. Then we start working with the medicine around eight o'clock that night. And it is with pills. You don't feel it right away. It takes anywhere from an hour to three or four hours to really kick in. And then, and we've got an incredible medical staff that's on duty. So this is, as we've mentioned, it's potentially dangerous. So you get screened medically before you come in. We give EKGs upon arrival. Oh, I mean, hooked up to monitors and blood. Yeah. I mean, you got IV for it. Oh, two monitors. My other business partner, Jose and Zunza, he's a paramedic providing Ibogaine for the last five years, 10 years in total, five years with his own business, treated thousands of people. And he's really done more than anybody I know to really help reduce the level of danger to really up the safety measures. So we have at least a doctor, sometimes two, and then three or four paramedics on duty every night. And everybody goes into the treatment room. You all get a mattress and then you're basically going in for the journey at that point. What are the inception? You see the movie inception? Yeah. Kind of like that. So matrix with the inception part. Yeah. Going in. Some people you said it takes a while. Last time I went in quick. Yeah, you did go in super quick. It was waiting on me. Yeah. It was just free waiting on me. Do you want to say some of the things that happen on that journey? I think that's super interesting. The medal. How about that? Yeah. I mean, while I was in, I was having a surgery and it was put in imagine. This is a vision you're having. It's happening to me. Yeah. It's a vision. While I'm going through it in my head. But to you, it's as real as I'm here. As I'm right here. Right. But for the person listening, you're not actually having. I'm laying this in my head. And I'm in this surgery and it's putting armor on me, like grafting it to my skin inside of me instead of me wearing it. And it's heating me up. But in real life, it was heating me up. You were sweating buckets. And they were giving me all this stuff to calm my heart rate flew through the roof and they were just kind of trying to cool me down. And then right when the surgery was over, it went away. So everything that I was reacting to in my, well, just like the matrix. Yeah. When I was in it, whatever happens to me, in there, happens to me. But just to clarify for people that are listening that don't know what the heck this is, this is just happening in your head. Right. Yeah. And then it's really being, it is like the movie Inception. Like they, it's like a lucid dream. Yeah. The caveat to that was it was happening. Actually the reaction was happening. Right. Yeah. The physical reaction of the heat was happening. Like Trevor was worried that your heart rate was getting too high and all that. But he's not seeing that you're getting armor melted into your veins. Yeah, I didn't see that. I didn't find out about that until the next day. The adiomanteum or whatever that. Oh, the best one is my IV port came out of my IV port came out and I came out from underneath the blanket. I mean, I was covered in bullet. Remember that? I was just kind of like what? Like reborn. Yeah. And what it was, what it was telling me was like everything that you've been through, you have armor on you that helps you get through life. The armor of God. Yeah. It was reminding me of what I was capable of, what's been actually happened to me. Okay. You get so fast in life you can overlook it. You can overlook the wonderful things and scenarios that life throws at you and what it actually does to you because it'll put another one on you. And if you, if they're stacked together so close, you can, you can miss your good time. You can not understand what it is you're truly capable of. If someone's not there to point it out and that, that's what this does. It reminds me constantly. So what are some of the things, medical things that would prevent someone from being able to do this? So the, where the danger lies is, I've again, prolongs the QT interval of the heart rate, which is basically the space in between the top and the bottom chambers firing. So the lots of medications prolong the QT interval. You could pull it up on the internet and there's hundreds of medications. So if you already have a prolonged QT interval, that's mostly what we're looking out for. Because to prolong a QT of an already prolonged QT interval, that's where danger comes in. So that's why we're doing all the check with the heart. There's other, you know, we're just, we're looking for general health. Anybody that's generally healthy and then doesn't have a prolonged QT interval can, can generally receive Ibogaine. But then there's contraindications with medications. So people need to come off site meds. That's a big one. Because I don't think it's almost like when, when guys who drink, if you drink one type of whiskey, if you drink Jack Daniels, Jack and Jim Beam don't get along. They argue. You threw a Jose in there, right? Then it's a freaking part. You know what, you understand where I'm going with that? So when people show up on a whole bunch of stuff and then they throw Ibogaine in there, man, he'll go to whip in there, but he's like the bouncer. People need to come off site meds. Everything. We need people off most prescription drugs, most psychiatric drugs for at least five days prior to arrival. And we ask that and that's another aspect of the healthcare system. Doctors are throwing these medications at people which may or may not be working, maybe mostly not working. And then they have no idea that they have withdrawal symptoms as well. So it can be super challenging and you need to taper very carefully. So we do that in conjunction with either their doctor or we can help write up a tapering schedule to come off those medications. When you see something work like this does and then you see the commercials on TV and how loose people play with the pharmaceuticals that they allow our countrymen to put in their body and what it does. We don't have any idea. Matter of fact, now they're coming up with other medications to give you for the side effects that the other one gives you. That's the game. What a racket. How about that? When you're talking to doctors getting someone off of meds, preparing them to come down, are they okay with this? More and more are. In the more than 10 years now that I've been working with psychedelics professionally, the conversation has changed like crazy. And again, I think it has a lot to do with veterans receiving the medicines, a lot to do with Rick Doblin who started MAPS. More on doctors too. Once they started taking it. Yeah. What's our leaders? We treated doctors. I know. And I know a few of them. Once you put a doctor, that in a doctor, an actual healer sees what a healer is supposed to be doing and you put them to get your buddy them back up. I can't imagine. Yeah. This is my shift gears. I know in the world he's no longer but he was the head of psychiatry of a region up in British Columbia. And he realized after years of working with these psych meds that the only thing I can ethically do now is help people get off these medications. And then he learned about psychedelics and their benefits so he's all about that now. But the conversation's definitely changing. I spoke to an incredible VA psychiatrist once who is all about helping his guy get down. And yeah, I think the conversation's going to change a lot. Everybody wants the clinical trials. The clinical trials are coming. Once the clinical trials are there, once they've got the evidence then it's going to be super easy to understand. So was it time for us to have another meeting in the mines? Back in Constantinople when all the brains came into it. You know what I mean? Are we about there yet when all the medical professionals, everybody get together and they rewrite like, hey, we know this works now. We need to change some of this stuff up because the new and the older kind of clash. And is that? I think that'd be beautiful. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah. Like it's a beautiful picture. It's like some countries, some bad ass country, you get every professional you got in there for a couple of weeks, the hash is stuff, or however long it takes. Yeah. And I'm picturing, remember the thing when we were kids, we are the world. Yeah. When everybody like joined hands and did this huge, that song, all the different singers, it's like everyone getting together and discussing a cure. Yeah. And we need to jig the system because the system is against these things now. In order to develop Ibogaine as a pharmaceutical, normally you need the money that only pharmaceutical companies has in order to do that. So the states need to get involved, but it's like, I don't need clinical trials to know that this works, but I'm more than happy to help clinical trials get done. But I think that's where we're at is so many people just know they work. Okay. How can we take that? Let's start with that and re-jig the whole system around it. How about that? How about that for Intel? We don't have a, there is information now, but there wasn't a scratch of it, but everyone's going to do it. There are things down here that when we all start doing, they absolutely work when there's no question about it that you don't need that piece of paper, just to look on that dude's face and the way he acts told me all I needed to see because I saw him before he went in period. He wasn't trying to push it on me when trying to sell and nothing. In fact, he told me not to do it. Yeah. Think about that. He's like, man, that's such an ashwoop and he told me that. And when you, when you're talking like that, then you're doing people will listen. Yeah. And that's why even our docs, man, there's a lot of time the system is designed to buck everything back out, but it's, if you look at it like that, yeah, but it's also the system. It doesn't know any better. Yeah. It's just own thing. Yeah. So as time changes, it's incumbent upon us to have our meeting in the mines. It's not a big, I think everybody would love to do that actually. Yeah. I mean. Do you, do you ever think that it will actually be available in the US clinically? Yeah, I think so. There's multiple movements afoot. I think one of the big ones is the rescheduling like we've talked about. I don't think that's an impossible thing to do. I think that's super low hanging fruit. Ibogaine obviously shouldn't be in schedule one. So that's a good step forward. I know of a couple groups are working towards clinical trials. One group that's working towards clinical trials to show, to turn Ibogaine into prescription for treating opioid use disorder. I know of at least one group working towards clinical trials to treat Ibogaine to help with traumatic brain injuries like it's showing to do with veterans. Once it's gone through the clinical trial process, then it will be available as a prescription. It's still got a long way to go. How tough is that? How are you going to do that? Because you can have a coach. You can have a coach. Okay, through that. It's huge. It's huge. Like even so Rick has taken MDMA through the clinical trial process for MDMA. It's gone. MDMA plus therapy will be a prescription within two to three years, three to four years within the states. But that alone, that's got therapy before the first dose, then the first dose, then therapy after the first dose, then a second dose, then more therapy. So it's going to be at least, I've heard, 15 to $20,000 for that, which is still a bargain if you're actually fixing somebody's PTSD and they don't have to stay on antidepressants for the rest of their life or whatever. But Ibogaine's that times at least 10. Oh, sure. Yeah, no, right. 10. Yeah. Man, like I don't even like laughing about it. It's huge. That's the thing. The whole system is rigged against it. So I love what you're saying about a meeting of the minds. If you could get people who could actually change rules, and I think there's another irony in working with veterans who, you know, the hippies know this shit works, but now working with veterans who bring in the conservative- It depends everybody off, right? You know, there's always the- Yeah, it's just- Yeah. That's the way it is. But now we're getting the conservative audience- Right, you want to know what I mean? That's the thing. And who are slow to change rules? Right. Because if they're working and people aren't getting hurt, that's the wisdom of- Of the right way. You've got to have both. Yeah, exactly. So how do we get the meeting of the minds of all the people who have the power to make the decisions and say, look, let's just re-jig the system. Because that's the only way it's actually going to cure the opioid crisis and actually clean up the tent cities is you need entire federal and state cooperation to not only give the IBA gain, but how do you give IBA gain and then somebody doesn't just go back into the tent city? Yeah. And it needs to be a Manhattan project. It's going to be tough. Yeah, fix that one. Yeah, push them out of there because you've got to get them off of one thing and you've got to clean them up and you've got to maintain them in the in between. Yeah, and you have to give them a will to move and work and- How about dad? Yeah. What do you do with dad? How do you- I mean- I'm going to be a little bit bummed. Is there a way to make it a prescription where it has to be done in a hospital where you can't just pick it up at Walgreens and go with this? Oh yeah, for sure. But that's it would never be. It would never be an even MDMA. It's never going to be just going to the pharmacy and get MDMA. It's you have to be a therapist who has licensed this treatment with the prescribing doctor who is familiar. And you never end at the same time you'd never want to do IBA gain in hospital setting. No, like a residential treatment facility, a very comfortable home. Yeah, retreat setting. That's what we're looking for. Yeah. It's the best environment- because when you come out it's that peaceful- Yeah. You're leaving hell. You don't want to wake up in it. I mean my God, it's kind of way I always looked at it and it's just slow and smooth smooth as fast. Yeah. Slow and smooth smooth as fast. I mean that's what we- what's our saying in the teams, guys coming through and what they're doing to them. Yeah. Yeah, because the worst thing in the world would be to get everyone so hyped on this that you could just get it at Walgreens and someone pops it on their way home. Yeah. That would be a complete nightmare. You're driving like looking over in the home hall dude and just freaking going to work on some IBA gain? Yeah, just those things. Yeah. I'm a joke about this but I can't- it's not- I know. I think of those first people. Poor. Like Howard Lotsoff who I mentioned taking IBA gain the first time. Unbelievable. Not knowing anything about what he was getting into. It's not recreational at all. Right. And I think that's it. It's not about just drugs for everybody. It's not. It's not about me the regulations. Right. This is taking it away from us. This is taking it away from us. Yeah, yeah, this is taking it away from us. Behind what we're doing here. Yeah. You don't do no drugs after this. That's what's inside of me. And this is right. It's the main point and that's what just needs to be shouted from the rooftops is the whole point of doing this is to become sober and clear-minded. It's not to get on a drug. It's to get off of everything. Yeah. The other way it taught me to explain it was so imagine everything that you went through in life, even the hard-stitching, the bad ones. It actually explains to you why you went through that and what it was for. You ever been somewhere and you're like, man, what? And then in the minute someone explained why it is we do that and you're like, oh, not only do I get it, I appreciate it. That's what it did for me. That's true forgiveness. True forgiveness. And you do that to your son and you do it and you see it and it's an instant change. It's like with anything else, there are certain things that the human body goes through scenarios that we go through that you feel it and it's an instant change. Yeah. Like it's a weight lifted or removed or something. We all know that. It's that. Yeah. It's completely anti-addictive. Like it's I quit drinking with zero intent to quit drinking because of an Ibogaine journey. On this Ibogaine journey, I encountered my grandfather who's a World War II veteran. He told me I needed to stop drinking for his lineage. He had been a drinker. I spoke to a tree on that journey that told me I needed to stop watering my weeds so that I could properly flower. So I woke up the next morning and said, all this stuff came up around drinking. I probably did have a drinking problem, but the world wasn't telling me I had a drinking problem. And I knew on some level I drank wrongly. And then I just instantly quit without any intent and without it being hard. Like it just fell away. It wasn't hard at all. It wasn't hard at all. Turned away from me like that too. Just like that. Just stop. So it does this with other substances as well. It'll reset people on crystal methamphetamines. The problem if you've been addicted to something like crystal meth for a long time is if you take it away, it's hard to feel good about anything. Like you might watch the funniest show of your life, but you can't laugh and feel those same feel good chemicals. Because same thing, your endogenous feel good chemicals have been obliterated. Ibogaine resets that. So normal life feels good again. Would you say that Ibogaine, a lot of people, even a lot of veterans that come home, they feel like they've lost their purpose and they can't find it. Or even just, I mean everyday people just feel like they don't have a purpose. They can't, they hate their nine to five just monotonous work life or whatever. Would you say that Ibogaine tells you your purpose or gives you that feeling of knowing of what to do or at least that everything's going to be okay? I think it remedies that situation. Like I think that's one of the biggest thing working with the Special Forces vets is it's this operator syndrome. You've been go go go for 20 years and then all of a sudden you don't have that and you're asked to hold this baby. Like what's your purpose and my anger isn't rewarded anymore. My violence isn't rewarded anymore. So and we've worked with professional athletes as well, retired professional athletes, that same kind of thing. I've been go go go. I've had the brotherhood. Now that's gone. Ibogaine seems to remedy that and I, I, the people may get direct messages as to what the purpose is, but I think it's more that what I mentioned before, just that cleaning of the glass from the inside out. It's just something that it does that enables you to say, actually, life is awesome. My purpose is everywhere. I can just be happy for no reason again. I don't need the adrenaline rush to be happy or I don't need the, you know, I think it's got something to do with that. One thing I've noticed with Marcus and with other friends of his that have gone through is the ego death or the drama, you know, what other people are going through and that would typically make you mad. You know, he talked about my friend or something like that that would normally fire us up and in make it set. All that's gone away. It's like, okay, stop talking about whoever, like none of that matters. All of the ego is gone and stripped away. Yeah. And stripped away, I think I, I feel like I, people often, like to me at a certain stage of my life, if I heard that something was going to get rid of my ego, that, that wouldn't be attractive at all. Like that feels like death to me. That feels like it doesn't have purpose. I'm too attached to my ego. I feel like I'm again, like when you take it, you never forget who you are or where you are or what you're doing. You might have these incredible visions, but if I tap you on the shoulder and say, hey, we need to check that IV port. You're completely there. So I feel like it, it doesn't destroy the ego. It heals the ego. It heals your sense of sound. It's a good way of saying it. So that you're not, the way it gave it to me was that that ego, the team guy ego was for the team guy life. You're not a team guy anymore. So when you're, when that ego standing in your new life, it gets in the way. Yeah. That was something I remember. How did they have the dad ego now? Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, you got to switch. And the other way you can change is the other gets out of the way. So when they killed me, you know, I was, I know exactly where it's at. Yeah. Bottom of the ocean. I don't know exactly where he's at. Yeah. Well, I remember when before you were going down, I don't say stuff like this. I'm like, he's at the bottom. And it's like, what the hell are you talking about? I'm like, yeah. So my ego is, that's where I keep it. Bottom of the ocean. Well, before he went down, he, he had heard about the ego death and all of that. And I think it made him nervous. And he's like, you know, beating his chest. And I am who I am. You want me to be a he would say stuff like that. And like, no, I don't, you're not going to be no better what you take. You're never going to be that. It's never going to make you a wuss or it's never going to make you not who you are. It's just going to help you find yourself. Yeah. I remember when that happened. Yeah. A lot of guys have some good ones. Yeah, it happens. You feel it. You just come out of there. It's like the best feeling ever. Do you feel like a weight has been lifted off of you? Out of me. Yeah. Out of me. It's like, I mean, I know it's all like, I can't explain it yet. I want to trust me. It's coming. I'll eventually get how I want to say it. But when it's something so unique like that, because there's some things that happen to all of us in there, right? How it happens is different. Yeah. But it will happen. I thought that was was awesome. Yeah. Yeah, it's different for everybody. There's some things like everybody gets a little attack sick, a little shaky when they take it. I'd say 80% of people have some kind of visions. I'd say 75% to 85% of people are going to purge in a bucket at least once through the process. But in sitting in circles after the experience and hearing about people's experience, it's so different. But, and again, there's some common themes that come up. But it's made it's individualized medicine. It knows what you specifically mean. Need. I think that's to talk about that though. That's something that's so powerful, but yet there is something unique to it. Like if you and I both see the same thing in there, yeah, think about that. Yeah, which has happened. Yeah, that's unbelievable. Like you and I can see the same thing in there. Yeah. I mean, some things are completely different, but when you hear, I'm like, wait a minute, we're not even from the same area in our minds at the same time. We can see the same thing. Yeah. That's. What do you think that is? I don't know. I think there's you're probably going subjectively to some kind of a place that is as objective as this world. You know, we're both looking at the same chess pieces on the table and you can corroborate that with each other. Yeah. When you come back and talk, when you can talk like that and you see it gives you a different perspective on life. And I think that's the general is when you slow it down and you start to appreciate everybody, start to value life the way it, you know, what you want it, we want it to be and the way it really is, we can't get it there. It's just, I understand why you see things that way. I do. I get that. I understand why you talk like that. But now I see it. Now, this is what it showed me. And then when you show them that you're like, Hey, does the mix plant you like this? All right. I don't want them. I'm not going to make you do anything. I'm not going to make it change your ways. I'm just going to explain to you how I see it now, how would it showed me? Yeah. And then when I do that and people, you can see it. When you say something to somebody and like, Whoa, where's that been? Yeah. I don't know. You know, I had some kind of amnesia. I couldn't get past all of it. Had to get in there and kick my brain back in a line or something. It brings out the best in people. How about that? I think it brings out like we treat people from all different kinds of religious backgrounds and spiritual backgrounds, but it's mostly Christians. And I think it, it turns people more into the kind of guy Jesus probably was. To me, Jesus was the biggest bad ass to ever walk the earth, but he didn't do it by being an angry person. He did it by calmly saying, I know my truth. My father and I are one. We are all one. Even if you are going to string me up on this cross, I'm going to love you anyway. And I feel like it makes people more in line with the truth of what that man stood for. 100% Well, magnitude on him. Yeah. Yeah. And he went through. Yeah. That really happened. Yeah. Yeah. That really happened. It really happened. So can you imagine having to go through that? Yeah. Just that alone. That then when people talk to me like, hey, look, I've been through a lot and having a pony up for that whole thing in itself. Just to be a good man. Yeah. I mean, you can take this to some deep levels. That's exactly what it showed me. That's why I walk like this now. Well, and you know, it's tough down here, especially if you're trying to be a real good one. Yeah. So I think it's just for Marcus, one of the best things that Abigain did was put him, he created this routine when he came home and does not break it. I mean, every Sunday, no matter where we are in the world, we go to church. Every he volunteers at the food pantry in town, like it does this to me. It's like what that's what Abigain did to him. It gave it created this pattern in routine instead of drinking or anything else, instead of something that would take him down a bad path. It took him down a path that brings him to light. You want to talk about funny? Like I get up in the morning, start drinking coffee at 10 o'clock. I can't touch it. It makes me, I got to pour it out. I'm watching my watch. I'm taking touch it. Yeah. And it literally is like, you can have this now and this is a reason why we don't do this afterwards. He's like, well, you will not eat at 7 o'clock. If you do, I will purge you. Wow. And it does that to me. What about like you weren't, you grew up Catholic. I did. You did not. I didn't grow up. You turned Catholic after taking Abigain. It took me straight to the church. Yeah. And then I got back and he's like, this is what, these are your rules. But let's, if you don't mind, it told you to learn Latin, dude. Have to learn Latin. Yeah, can you believe that? And you've learned Latin. Yeah, learn Latin. And it makes it easy for me because it's almost like I was supposed to read it. And then when I get done with one thing, it'll test me on something. This is the sound bizarre. I know. This sounds so bizarre. So I wanted to get a bit of it out. But this is actually happening to me. I can't stop this. It's actually happening. I have to do this. I mean, it make, I know that sounds crazy when I say that, but this what it does, it's in like manifests itself into me. And it makes me do this possible person. How about that? If you let it. If you let it. And if you want it. It's not going to make you go against your will. No, yeah. Like you were talking about earlier, somebody drank on the way in and then drank on the way out. And we're not really committed to the process. I'm a good soldier. For that kind of, yeah. It's the best way is what it tells me. It's like, man, when I got told to do something, I would do it and I would do it to the best of my ability, even if I would screw it up. I mean, I do. But if I'm trying, then it gives me something. And I'm. Free will is always going to be. Free will is always going to be. It's not going to take free will away. If you want to be a raging asshole after I've gained 100%, you're going to be able to do that. So for those people that are scared of going soft, it doesn't make people soft. No. I'm sitting here talking tomorrow. Matter of fact, yeah. Does it? You know, one of the least soft people on earth. I can see him. You know, I know it. It changed the way I look at people. It definitely changed the way he looks. And it gives him perspective that he never saw before. Like it almost not empathy. But he can look at someone and say, okay, well, they have their own situation going on. And not. Yeah. And the minute it gave me that door. It's really. I ran right through it. And once I saw that and I was like, okay. Now what do you got? Show me something else. Because when you start seeing people's angles, it's the best. Yeah. Because the front angle you show me is always going to be your defense, your bad side and everything, man. But I can get around that now. Yeah. What's interesting is post-Iwa gain, he has had more flight cancellations. And travel hiccups than he's ever had before. And I'm like, this has to be some sort of test. I don't know what is going on. It's not like everybody will leave me. It's different. And it's always coming home. It's never when he's on his way to work or anything like that. It's coming home. Flight's get canceled or room wasn't booked or, you know, there's something that goes wrong. And I'm like, in my mind, I'm getting ready for a rage. But he handles it with grace and... And let's be honest, because I've worked with people and their anger goes away. And then they call me three months later and said, oh, I got angry again today. I'm like, well, that's not long. I've done I became eight times. I get angry. You know, life happens still. That's a test. Yeah. So as you go, progress, it teaches you in levels like in martial arts, like belt levels. So the first test it gives you is like, oh, I kept my anger. It's like passing the first level on Mario or something. But then the next one comes in and then it's like you're going through it and there'll be a test and there'll be tough to see if you lose your cool. If you lose your cool, I'll back you up and it'll do it to you again. But if you pass it, it'll keep going. And then the scenarios, like everyone thinks that like, I don't lose my cool when everything falls apart. It's like the little stuff, right? Yeah, that's totally me. It's some little stuff. Like I canceled. Then my TV didn't work and my credit card was declined. And then my luggage got lost. You know, it's designed like you can tell someone's trying to piss me off. And when I started to see that, I'm okay. All right. All right. And then if you know you're being tested, it becomes a joke, it becomes a game. And once I started to see that, I would back up. I was like, okay, life test. Yeah. And then the next test is, all right, I did get angry. Can I not kick my own ass? Yeah, right. Can I just forgive myself for being a human being? I say that too. At the end of it, I was like, you know what? I kept my cool, but I got a little upset. Yeah. I still kind of want to want to do that. And it's just, it's with pressure. It's like learning your tolerance, your balance. We talked about it. Yeah. Your balance. So the only way to truly balance you out is to put you in those scenarios. Yeah. That's it. And it does that. Yeah, it does that to me. Yeah. We haven't even talked about 5MEO DMT, but my first time working with that substance personally, it really, I was brought to the unity of all things. Like, I could really feel the perfection and connection between all things. And the thing with something like that, if you truly, if you don't forget it, is if we're all one thing, then if anybody is suffering, then I am suffering. And then it's so easy to find compassion for people at that point. That's what I think. And it's not flawless compassion. That's what I say to your neighbor. Yeah. Like, treat yourself. The golden rule. That's the only way you can do this. They all can hell it. Yeah. Everybody. You can't. Yeah. Not designed like that. You're designed to help that one next to you. Your neighbor. Whoever you're sitting next to at any given time. And I know it's usually not going to be what you want it to be wrapped in. It's going to look like something you don't like. It's going to talk like something I have to do with all the time. Yeah. But that's the way it is. That's the irony and the fun and the humor of life and the way, again, God wraps everything up. Yeah. I think it comes back to what Jesus taught, which is love God. Love all else to the best of your ability with everything that you've got. And then do unto others as you would do unto yourself. And I love the love your enemy part. And love your enemy is not necessarily, I had this realization at Easter a few years ago. Love your enemy isn't necessarily the person. Love the challenge that is in front of you. Yeah. Love your current enemy. That's the way you say that here. Yes. The enemy that like someone's pounding you in the face. You want me to love them? No, no, no, no. If you're a fighter and they're in there and that's your arena, then love your environment. Love the test. Yeah. Don't hate that. Yeah. That's what that that's how I take. I perceive that too. Yeah. Absolutely. The enemy is your anger right now. That's right. Or your frustration right now or you know, whatever it is, it's the simple, simple, simple little thing. And you can remove yourself too. That's the best part from the environment is like, man, you do have outs. Yeah. And then some of us choose to stay in it. You can always see a protagonist. Man, someone walking around looking for some attitude or for a fight. You can see them. Yeah. They don't hide that. Yeah. Speaking of 5MEO really quick, do you think in your experience that you have to do 5MEO following an Ibogaine? No, not at all. That was 5MEO is really a recent addition to the equation. When I was working with Ibogaine in Vancouver, we just worked with Ibogaine for the majority of the time. And then it was a provider in Mexico started adding 5MEO to their protocol. When I first heard about it, I'm like, mixing medicines. I don't know. I was a bit of a purist and didn't know if that was cool. But then I treated somebody in Vancouver, a younger guy, 24 years old, but had been addicted to heroin since he was 15 years old. And it was a tough detox and he was feeling pretty rough afterwards. And I said, well, I've heard 5MEO goes well after Ibogaine. Do you want to give it a shot? And he did it. It was one of the coolest experiences. So I gave it to him. He was on a couch. I kind of sat next to him meditating as I gave it to him. But quickly I heard a rustling and I heard him sitting up. I turned and looked at him and he grabbed my shoulders and he looks at me and he goes, wow, it was the most authentic lout I had ever heard. My entire life. And he said he felt like he was just reborn. Like he felt like he, like when, when Neo in the Matrix comes out of that slime, he said it felt like that, but it was all good. And he was just, and he was perfectly fine after that point. So I saw the benefit of five then, but even we did a study with Stanford University recently. Yeah, that go. Really good. Yeah. But the, so they went to Stanford prior to coming to us, 30 guys, soft guys with, with TBI and then they came here and they just did Ibogaine when they came to us because we just wanted to study the one thing. And then they went to Stanford immediately thereafter and the results are incredible and they'll be published within six to eight months. But we were, since we'd been working with five MEO, we're like, oh, what about the five MEO? They're not going to get five MEO. But as soon as we gave it to the first group, we're like, Ibogaine's awesome. It totally, all those guys were fine. None of those guys, I felt like they needed five MEO after. And then they got to come back a month later for five MEO. I feel like the people that I've seen that have gone through how I've explained it in very layman's terms is the five MEO will strip you of any darkness or ego or whatever that is. But having the five afterwards or a few days later is like filling that void that was ripped out with just pure light. Yeah. Do you think that's a good? My metaphor is Ibogaine's sand blast you from the inside out and five MEO polishes you from there. That's good. Yeah. And just as the stars aligned for that Stanford study, everybody popped out of Ibogaine quite well. And I didn't feel like we missed the drop the ball and not giving them five. But for people who are still feeling a bit discombobulated a day or so after and you give them five MEO, it seems to push them through and really help them in a really nice way. Awesome. Well, thank you for coming on. Thanks for having me. It needs to be talked about more. And just the everyday people, whether they want to do it or they know someone that needs it, veterans can obviously, special forces can go through vet solutions for funding or for grants. But for everyday people, can they contact MEO? Yeah, they can find us at our website. We're called Ambio Life Sciences. So AMBIO, the website is ambio.life. And yeah, we do programs where we tend to bring veterans and first responders in together. Definitely mostly groups with veterans, then groups with veterans and first responders and then civilians as well. And everybody is welcome. Anybody that feels a call. We just, I think, just somehow because of the way the cookie has crumbled, we don't attract a lot of psychedelic tourists. It's not people who are just looking for the next thing. Oh, I know. Yeah, no. No, we don't want those kind of people, but people who are seeking true healing. Have they come wondering in here that's the last time they'll do that? Yeah. Yeah. It really is an inner healing. And whether someone listening needs it or you know if somebody or son or daughter or mom, whoever it is, we all have someone in our life that we're like, oh, she needs that or he needs that. Everybody, every family has at least one person they know that needs it. But it's so hard to get information about it. So having your website handy. You mentioned vet solutions. So vet solutions.org is 501c3. Amber Marcus Capone started this nonprofit and have raised money to send so many guys. So many. For treatments like this. Great people. They are incredible human beings. Just the most miraculous human beings I've ever met. What about that dude? He's so good. And Amber, how about her? The pair of Marcus is in my life. Right. Yeah, right. Yeah. But you know, people are looking for ways to spend money, donate money in a way that's actually going to have an impact on your country. That is the best charity I can imagine giving to you. A hundred percent. I mean, that has changed hundreds of guys. There are more than 500 now. Yeah. Maybe nearing in on eight hundred or something. Yeah. Amber Marcus have really not only started this movement, but they've kept it going and they're just doing a great job. They're bulldozing through. They're forces of nature. They are. I'm yeah. Out of all the people I've met since I started in this field, I'm just humbled by Amber Marcus as a presence in my life. Same. Yeah, we love them. Well. I'm powerful women in our lives. Yeah. You married one. There was a couple of watched. You can walk in and start doing her thing. It's amazing. Yeah. I owe a lot to Amber. So impressed by that. Oh, man. She's something. Yeah. Well, thanks again, brother. Great job. Thank you. Thank you. That was awesome. Thank you everybody. And thank you for listening in on another episode of Team Never Quit podcast. Such a great episode. We'll try for today. And we will see you guys next week. Bye. Bye. Bye. now. now. now. now. now. now. now. now. now. now. now. ♪♪♪