Um, how are you?
Most people answer that question with fine or good,
but obviously it's not always fine and it's usually not even that good.
This is a podcast that asks people to be honest about their pain,
to just be honest about how they really feel about the hard parts of life.
And guess what?
It's complicated.
Hello, it's Nora.
It is summertime and the team at Feelings & Co is not taking a vacation.
We are working on the next few months of episodes and planning out the next 12
months of work for our team.
So while we're out there finding and producing new stories for you,
we are also going to be sharing a few of our older favorites.
Including this episode.
We'll be back with brand new episodes the first Tuesday of August,
and we are still putting out bonus episodes on our premium feed.
You can get the full archive of terrible things for asking
and bonus episodes anytime at ttfa.org slash premium.
A quick warning that this episode contains descriptions of violence
plus some strong language.
We're going to turn out of this bizarre crime story and a shocking death of a political
strategist in North Carolina.
A prominent family caught up in a murder mystery and police are now scrambling for a
mode of ABC's Rob Nelson.
Here with the latest on a very grizzly case here, Rob.
Grizzly and harboring.
Good morning, guys.
It has a crime that has shocked residents in Raleigh, North Carolina.
Good morning, guys.
It's terrible thanks for asking.
I am your host, Nora Macknery, who most certainly practices her newscaster voice
in her private time.
Most of us never, okay, I'm done.
Look, most of us never expect that our lives are going to be headline news,
and we almost certainly never expect that our deaths will be headline news.
Because, okay, most death headlines are not like
happy person dies at the exact right age after no illness or discomfort,
asleep, and with all their affairs in order and inexplicably surrounded by all of their loved
ones who were instantly able to accept the death and move forward happily in their own lives,
honoring the person they lost, but not dwelling too much on it.
More at eight.
If your death makes the headlines, the headline is more than likely going to be grizzly and or
heartbreaking.
And Jamie's death was very grizzly and really, really heartbreaking.
WRL has uncovered new details tonight in a story that has touched many people in the city of Raleigh.
Thank you for joining us on Devil Morgan.
Had I'm David Crabtree, friends, family, colleagues,
even people she did not know are mourning the loss of Jamie Han.
The young political strategist who died after she and her husband were stabbed
Monday night while in their home, now charged with a crime, one of her closest friends and colleagues.
David, I cannot tell you how many times the word tragic was used in conjunction with this case today.
Now, it's a word that we in television news use a lot probably too often,
but this time it really fits.
Look, Jamie was 29 when she was murdered by Jonathan Brighill and Jonathan had been the
best man in her wedding to her husband nation.
So just right there, that's got a peak your interest.
I mean, one, murdered, two, by your husbands, best friend slash best man, three, at age 29.
This morning, police say 31-year-old Jonathan Brighill went from best man to killer of the bride.
We're curious people by nature, all of us.
I mean, you listen to podcasts.
I look at my own boogers.
Everyone does.
You blow your nose. What do you do?
You take a look.
So we're curious people and we're also people who consume death and tragedy as a form of
entertainment guilty as charged for being a person who watched a lot of law and order in her life,
like a lot. And even though it's fiction, executive producer Dick Wolf makes no bones about the
fact that he rips these stories from the headlines, they're always loosely based on a true story.
True crime is the hottest podcast category right now.
I mean, it's really beaten sad, which is our category.
It's just blowing the sad casts out of the water.
Now, this is not to discount the sadness of anybody's death, but the category is especially hot
when the murdered person is a white woman in her 20s.
Jamie Han was a firecracker.
A young, energetic, ambitious woman who along with her husband was immersed in local politics
and community causes. And now, inexplicably, one of her best friends is being held responsible
for her murder. And when we're consuming these death and tragedy things, which again,
yeah, I do it. I do.
It's really easy to forget that we're talking about someone's life and that the loss of a life,
particularly when that loss is a violent loss, it echoes and echoes it's felt by so many people,
people who never expected to be a part of a headline news story, people who just thought
they'd live their lives and do their best in maybe one day have to die of cancer or something
like the rest of us. People who thought they'd at least get a somewhat decent goodbye to their loved one.
People like Nation. Nation Han is Jamie's husband and, which we'll get into later, her former intern.
On April 22nd, 2013, Nation came home from work planning to go for a run. He and Jamie's friend
John had come over to do some work with Jamie. It was just like a normal Monday. I'd come home from
work a little early, but other than that, it was like 5 p.m. and everyone's driving home and
glad to be home and, you know, fighting their kids to get their homework done before dinner,
and it was just normal and a normal neighborhood and all of a sudden hell happens.
Nation was upstairs, but he could hear Jamie downstairs screaming.
I just assumed that like a snake had been brought in the house. She was definitely afraid of snakes or
that something had gone wrong, but nothing like what happened, you know, and it wasn't a snake,
and it wasn't a big bug either. Nation ran down the stairs and he saw John with a knife and he saw
Jamie who had been stabbed. John came towards Nation with the knife and the two of them fought,
Nation and Jamie ran out of the house and just ended up in a neighbor's yard.
And, you know, I think the thing I remember most clearly about those moments after and I
was just everyone helping. I didn't remember any hesitation on the parts of anyone, right?
I mean, confusion, yes, and like shocked that this attack had unfolded in a quiet neighborhood,
but everyone was just there. You know, there was a lady who was biking by and there were our
neighbors and there were people across the street and beside our house and others who just came and
one of the people was a nurse and, you know, after he had attacked us both, I was so
remember just being overwhelmingly fearful that he was going to keep coming and, you know,
there was a neighbor who said, well, you know, I'm here to stop him.
Jamie was bleeding from her stab wounds really badly and she and Nation lay in the yard while
the neighbors called 911. When the person you love most in the world is in pain, like my own
pain for my injuries went out the window, but also like all of the other things went away.
Like it was just simply begging her to stay alive. Like, promising her we were going to go back to
the beach and that we would celebrate many more anniversaries together and just saying I love you.
I mean, over and over and over again. Nation had also been cut in his hand when he was wrestling
with John. When the EMTs got there, they put Nation and Jamie into separate ambulances to take
them to the hospital. And this panic call came over the walkie-talkie and I looked at the
lady and said, is that my wife that they're talking about? And as she said no, but then I saw
return the walkie-talkie off and I just thought to myself, fuck, like this isn't good. Like, I mean,
I knew she was hurt and I knew I was hurt and I, but I had no idea how badly and, you know, and
I mean, there's such a cliche, but I mean, I think cliche is often cliches because they're true.
They happen, right? Like how quickly you can go from a normal Monday to your life being blown wide
open. And we begin with breaking news. A man and woman in the hospital after a stabbing in
North Raleigh. Hello, I'm Gerald Owen. And I'm Jackie Highland. The attack happened around
630 this evening. WRAL's Kevin Holmes has been talking with officials and neighbors about the
stabbings. He joins us live with what he's learned so far, Kevin. Jackie, within the past few
moments, the crime scene has scaled down significantly, but the investigation still ongoing,
still very active. This crime scene tape and officers still surround the home where it all
happened. We do know two people were rushed to the hospital. As you mentioned at last check,
they're both in critical condition. More on this story as an unfolds. Back to you.
In the hospital, Jamie is rushed to the OR. Nation is treated for the cuts on his hand,
and then he just waits.
And I was basically on lockdown, right? I mean, I went to
out to get medicine that first night for like a hot second. They wanted to do surgery. I think
even that night, and I said no, because Jamie was in surgery, and then she was
sort of fighting for life, and I had no interest in being under. In case something happened,
another good or bad. And so I went there, and then the next night,
Tuesday night, I went to a prayer ritual, like I love for just a minute, because I wanted to go
and see the people that were there, and Jamie's mom wanted to go.
It was just the weirdest, I mean, just living in this like hospital bubble,
surrounded by the beeps and the machines that you don't know what they're doing, and the angels
who are nurses, and eventually like dozens and dozens and maybe even hundreds of people were
there to bear witness and to help.
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I'm Nora McInerney. I'm the author of several funny books about sad things and I am a reader
of pretty much anything. I just love books and ever since I can remember books have been
my lifeline. I'm not exaggerating when I say that reading. And yes, listening to a book
counts as reading has gotten me through life. Other people's words and stories have comforted me,
strengthened me, illuminated parts of the world and parts of myself that I didn't even know were
there. There's very little that I love more than books. Except for talking about books.
Terrible reading club is a podcast about books and life. It's for readers who have been through
some stuff. It is an informal, very low stakes book club that brings you great books for terrible
times and doesn't require you to leave your home or join a Zoom call. Every episode will bring
you a conversation with a different author and a new book or more, probably more, to add to your
TBR pile. Terrible reading club is a new podcast from the team at Feelings & Co. You might know us
from Terrible Thanks for asking or it's going to be okay. You can find a list of all of our book
recommendations, including upcoming books at Feelings & Co. Slash Terrible Reading Club.
If you have a book to recommend, email us. Terrible Reading Club at Feelings & Co.
We'll be here in your feed in just a few weeks. Follow Terrible Reading Club wherever you get
your podcasts. See you soon, bookworms.
I don't think that there's just one person for everyone. I mean, if that were true,
like, good luck to us. But of all the people on this planet,
Jamie and Nation really, really were a good, good match. There were both mega nerds about politics,
they're both passionate about public service and justice and equality. They met when Nation
was 20 and Jamie was 22 and they were working on the John Edwards campaign and it was like at first
sight for Nation. Yeah, so I walked around the corner that first day and saw her, she was facing
her computer, was facing away from me and I walked over and they introduced me and she stands up
and she gives me a big ol' handshake which morphed into a hug and she had the best smile in the world.
Smiled with her whole face and smiled with one big dimple and two really bright eyes and just had
the most loving spirit immediately. Jamie was literally just doing her job but Nation kept showing
up to volunteer and eventually his crush was reciprocated. This smart, accomplished,
older woman liked him. Eventually it happened, it happened that February, so this would have
been February of 2008 and it was a few days after Super Tuesday for the political nerds out there
and that's literally how I was able to repeat together like the date like a year later. We're like
what day was it when we first kissed? Oh wait, it was three days after Super Tuesday.
Jamie liked Nation so much that she married him. She started a business, I started a new job,
we moved across state lines and we got married in about six weeks time so it was a little crazy.
Nation and Jamie found in each other a person who had encouraged and challenged them,
like a real partner who cared about the same things they did and actually lived those values.
We expected and believed that we had both been involved in public service and some capacity that
was always super important to us both and so we sort of thought that we would move back and forth
I think between politics and nonprofits and state government and maybe even federal government
and she wanted to continue on her consulting firm and so like all of the work stuff felt
important because it wasn't just work right it was our passion and it was our hobby and it was
our interest because again like we're like the nerdy folks who set there and watch political
you know documentaries and love the West Wing like loved loved loved the West Wing. Obsessed
with golden girls loved tie takeout and three dollar bottles of wine from Whole Foods.
I knew beyond a shot of a doubt we would always have a ton of animals in the house.
Um puppies and kittens were her favorite thing next to like old dogs and old cats that no one
else loved. Um we talked about kids I mean I think that kids were important to her and as a result
became important to me. I can't tell you how many times where like we had serious substantive
conversations about whether we should try to adopt various extended family members children.
You know we're gonna continue to adopt dogs and our house better be overflowing
with pets and people and all of our friends and all of our neighbors and that was always
incredibly important to us both like grand ambition on a small scale be as good a friend as good a
family member as good a partner as possible and be there show up do the thing right like go to
paintball or go to painting class or go to the funeral just the act of showing up was like her grand
ambition and I would say that that was like the passion that sort of tied all of this together.
Jamie and nation did have that open door kind of home they wanted to have
their house in Raleigh, North Carolina was the place where all sorts of people would come to hang out
to have dinner to pet Jamie and nation's dogs they had a big enough house that there was room
for friends to stay when they needed to and Jonathan Broyhill was one of those friends
he and nation had met in high school but eventually John had become as much Jamie's friend as he
was nations he even lived with them when he first moved to Raleigh. Eventually he moved out and
got a roommate but Jamie's business was growing and she needed help she did political consulting
and she ended up hiring John but she told him look this is not like a pity hire this is not
me hiring you just because we're friends you're gonna have to work and he did and then he started
complaining about headaches and like feeling fatigued and he went to the doctor and came back and
told us that he had been diagnosed with MS and that they were optimistic because he was young
but that it was definitely like a big serious subset of diagnosis. MS is multiple sclerosis it's
an often debilitating and very unpredictable disease so immediately nation and Jamie stepped up
to close the distance in their friendship with Jonathan there's not really anything you can do to
cure MS but Jamie did what she knew how to do she did something you know let's look into the best
doctors in the area let's look into diets I mean like Jamie automatically like Monday nights like
standing rule was unless work intervened or we were out of town Jamie was gonna cook dinner she
was gonna invite him over sometimes others but always him and they were gonna watch like the
bachelor or the bachelor red or dancing with stars and I was going to not but I was gonna be there
like I was gonna be present but I wasn't gonna watch those shows that was always like on my computer
like doing some riding but like we were all gonna be together and so she changed the way she cooked
I mean it was like vegetables and focus on health you know he was overweight and it was
encouraging him to go on walks and so we added walks to the Monday plan right and go to the pool
and and move and then about a year after he was diagnosed with MS Jonathan had more bad news
I remember I was on the phone with a work call and was standing there in the kitchen and I see
saw him pull up and he walked and he looked like he had seen a ghost and I hung up until the
percent to go and I looked at him and said well what's going on and he just collapsed against me
crying and told me he had pancreatic cancer um and so I led him to the living room and I sat
there and listened to him share this news of this diagnosis or at least likely diagnosis
that's a really really bad cancer with a really bad survival rate I think it's like none
it's bad and even though they weren't medical experts nation knew enough to know that their
friend had gotten really really really bad news um and I just texted Jamie and told her to get
home right away and so she came home and you know we remember we cooked and and we literally just
sat up till midnight and you know finally you know Jamie and I went to bed and she like she was
just so fricking strong and not didn't show anything and I walked into the bedroom and she was
just sobbing and it was the first time I mean I cried when he first told me but it was the first time
I really let myself loose too and she was just heartbroken and I remember distinctly one of those
first nights like her leaning over rolling over in bed and looking at me like she had to wear glasses
often and she was had her glasses on and she pulled them off and she had tears in her eyes and she
said don't you want to have a baby and I was what do you mean like our best friend has pancreatic
cancer like you're trying to figure business out like this is going to be a hellacious few months
and she was like nation you don't realize like she's like doesn't it hasn't it sunk in like life
is fleeting and we only have so much time and I want the people we love to experience our children
um and that was the first time she ever directly like looked me in the eyes and said let's do this
John's pancreatic cancer took a lot out of him Jamie and nation didn't drive John to his doctor's
appointments but they were still close friends John still worked for Jamie and Jamie gave him
flexible hours while he did all of his doctor's visits and treatments their friend had another
very serious disease is that they couldn't do anything about except just do their best to be the
best friends that they could be
what are we gonna do today we're gonna go to therapy if you're not going to therapy
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better help hglp.com slash ttfa and once again what are we gonna do today I'm gonna go to therapy
inside the hospital nation has no idea that the most traumatic night of their lives is turning into a
big big big story a story that he has to participate in without even realizing it and
what I didn't realize was how much stuff was going on outside right like journalists were descending
and in paparazzi and like we're just we were just normal people you know and I had no idea any of
that was happening and then I remember we had to like draft a statement for the press and like
Jamie was like under an assumed name like a pseudonym or whatever in her room and
the prayer vigil there were cameras there like I didn't really have my phone much and it was like
television stations and the guardian and the daily mail and you know national inquire and like
everyone descending outside.
Jamie died on April 24 after two days in the hospital
I remember the day morning after she died like it was we were riding to the church to discuss the funeral
and I couldn't bring myself to talk to my parents or to others like I didn't feel like anyone
understood and being me and being social media focused like I pulled out Twitter and I just
sent out a couple of tweets about how I couldn't believe the world was spinning and the sun was
shining and people were going about their lives and multiple media outlets like embedded
those tweets and articles. Nation Han tweeted these heartfelt sentiments after his wife's death
I lost my best friend last night the sadness is overwhelming I have no idea what I'm going to do
without Jamie Han she was my center my rock and my soulmate and they were like well you should make
your account private and you shouldn't tweet for right now because they're just using that for
comments and the press and that was like those were all moments that were just like what the hell
like no one trained you to grieve and no one trained you to lose but certainly like no one's like
here's media training in the case of your the love person you love most funeral.
All that attention meant that a thousand people came to Jamie's funeral they came because she
made them feel like they mattered and because she like saw them right like I mean I think that's
one of the most biggest challenging things most challenging things in the world is like folks just
not being seen and I think even like I think of that often right like I think Biden wrote in his
book recently that something like three million Americans die every year and like how many of
those people like as much as the fishball effect was terrible how many of those people like their
loved ones die and a handful of people show up at the funeral and they're left picking up the
pieces of a life that was shattered and they don't and no ones even seeing them. Jamie and nation
were being seen and there's a fine line between being seen and being gawked at.
I remember Jamie's mom coming up to me not long after the funeral and being like like literally
when I say not long I mean like an hour after me like so good morning America was outside the
church and they asked me if they could come film me in my living room um tomorrow and it's like
really like you just buried your daughter I just buried my wife and they want to film us in your
living room. That is a very specific unusual example but being gawked at is a very normal thing
that happens when you're grieving. Americans are not the best at death and grief and we all all
of us me included we struggle with what to say when somebody is deep in grief. Yeah I mean that
where it was was very odd. I remember being at a restaurant too long after she died and someone
walked up to me and they said oh I'm surprised to see you on the bout so soon and like it wasn't even
really a person that knew me right and on the other hand there were some really wonderful things
I mean people would come up and tell you how sorry they were and like you know that you didn't
know which could in its own cell only be lovely but then there would be days where like you were
just trying to have a day you know it's like a beautiful Sunday and you're just trying to breathe
and someone who you don't know comes up and says like I'm so sorry for your loss and you thank them
and then they linger and they're like well I just can't believe that someone that you trusted
would do that and it's like well yeah me neither
we'll be back
and we are back
this is what is really unique about nation situation you take the grief of early widowhood now
you add a healthy scoop of trauma you mix in some headlines you layer in some guilt and confusion
over the fact that you knew the murderer and now you let it sit let it stew for just under two
years because it took just under two years for Jonathan Boyhill to go on trial for Jamie's murder
yeah I had a much weirder role in it right because not only was I her husband I was the primary
witness and I was also a victim and I was a survivor and I checked so many boxes so he was charged
with first degree murder against her but also attempted first degree murder against me so I was a
victim you know I was the person in the house other than him so I was the witness
and I was the spouse and so I just I had a very different role than many people have
and I also had to give hours upon hours upon hours of testimony and relives so many things that were
lovely and near and dear and then also so many things were terrible
so many terrible things and at the trial nation has to relive all of those terrible things
over and over and over and over further evidence for the state yes you're on a state we call
nation on nation has to see John he has to hear about Jamie's death again and again and again
he has to talk about it he has to try to put into words what Jamie's death has done to him
into his world I was I was halfway down the stairs and I was yelling what is I ran or what's
happening or I was halfway down the stairs and she screamed out he's trying to kill me
I proceeded down the stairs you know
and I saw her round in the corner and my eyes immediately went there was there was blood on the floor
and I could see Jamie's legs and lower torso poking out from there my eyes immediately went to
that and I looked up and he John was standing over her with a knife I mean nation has to relive
every detail like the little tiny tiny itzy bitty really small someone by me at the
source very small details over and over and over and over would you be able to on either
of these pictures indicate where the defendant came at you with the knife and you have
power and that's very testifying I turned past the cedar chest when we ended up hitting yes
her okay do you see if we put states is it before the others
not all of those details like whether nation turned left or right at the cedar chest make for
compelling television but every night we could all turn on the news and hear the updates
at the way county courthouse a widower staring down his wife's accused killer and his one time close
friend from the witness stand nation haunts been hours testifying about the vicious knife attack
that would eventually take the life of his wife Jamie let's begin with that chilling and graphic
testimony at the Jonathan broyhill murder trial in rolly one of the first police officers on the
scene testifying it was one of the worst crime scenes he's come across in his 10 years on the job
one of the most powerful moments today when Jamie Hans recorded voice is played in the courtroom
it's very difficult for her family including her husband nation who breaks down and is comforted
by other family members Steve the bottom line here is the defense is trying to keep Jonathan
broyhill from spending the rest of his life in prison without parole the mandatory sentence for
first degree murder to verdict in the Jonathan broyhill murder trial that verdict came in just
before five o'clock less than two hours of deliberations but not soon enough for the family of
victim Jamie Han with a jury found the defendant guilty of first degree murder
Adam Owens was in the courtroom as the verdict was being ready joins us now from the newsroom
Adam Jackie Gerald as you heard there as those guilty verdicts were called out you could
actually hear the release of all that time waiting for justice now trust i believe in a free press
i believe in transparency of judicial systems documenting and making open these sorts of things
are incredibly important to democracy and a fair rule of law and i am pro those things
it cannot be underestimated we by we mean just me Hans has never done this we use these
sorts of records all the time to fact check our stories just getting hunting and go to the
courthouse together we walk in feeling confident cool have never had asked for directions
but there's a big question how much of this is being consumed by the public us as justice and how
much of this is entertainment i mean i think one of the most absurd moments was after the trial
concluded when i got a facebook message from a producer for the doctor Phil show who asked me to come
on doctor Phil um and i i can't remember exactly how they worded it but they were basically like
look doctor Phil is not just a television personality he is someone who can help you through your
grief and like more than my actual doctor like like i'll do respect to someone who was doing their
job and like you know that doctor Phil has entertained people for a long time that is that is fine
but like the idea that doctor Phil and i were gonna somehow have this magical 40 minute
moment that would lead to me being healed in front of you know family and viewers was like
ridiculous you know i mean it was just it was like oh okay sure i've avoided media for all this time
let me come on doctor Phil yeah that's what's gonna make me better no shade to doctor Phil here he's
helped millions of people myself included but nation didn't need more media attention people couldn't
get enough of the story of Jamie and nation and john they've been best friends forever john
royale was even best man when his good buddy got married the three of them by all accounts were best
friends they hung out together they traveled together they were such good friends that a lot of
people actually thought they lived together you know there were some of the profiles john and
hour such great friends and here's the story you know and they and like some of it was not inaccurate
right i mean at its core but then other times it was like nation and john did everything together
and it's like well there were times like most many friends where we would do a lot together
within there were time for we wouldn't talk very much for like a couple years or you know i think
people missed how much of a best friend he was to Jamie or you know they obviously didn't have a
chance to ask Jamie why she hired him in the first place or you know i mean like they're it's like
anything like they're painting by numbers on these sort of sensational stories
i i get why people are fascinated with killers because
how how do you become this kind of person was it always inside of you is it something your
parents did is this a nature thing or a nurture thing and our favorite thing to wonder and sometimes
ask were there signs that everyone around you missed did you actually walk around like with a
literal sign that said look out i'm gonna kill someone someday the trial and the coverage around
it wasn't just nation coming to terms with how Jamie died and with who killed her but also
coming to terms with a lot of bizarre truths about the person who did it
it Jonathan wasn't just headline news because he was nation's best man turned killer of the bride
he was headline news because Jonathan wasn't who he said he was i don't remember who told me but
someone just pulled me aside and they said none of this was true none of it was true as in the
ms the pancreatic cancer Jonathan had made all of that up one of the things that made the trial
so difficult was like finding out the whole story right like the depth of the lies and deception
and the plans to get out of town and the all of those things Jonathan had been embezzling money
from one of the campaigns that he and Jamie worked on and Jamie had been starting to realize that
something was amiss but didn't know that Jonathan had at the same time been trying to raise money
from other people to support his fake treatments and that Jonathan was maybe also planning on disappearing
and all of this is really interesting right i mean i would be curious i am curious when we hear
stuff like this our natural reaction is lean in tell me more i cannot believe it
we start to see everyone involved as the cast of some weird drama we start to have opinions about
who we like who was right who was wrong lots of opinions and one of the things about this world
that we live in that we completely forget is that talking or typing out our opinions is optional
like at any point we could not do it like this wild news but in this world we live in we can form
that opinion and then we can find that person we can find nation we can look him up on the internet
dash off a quick tweet like we're talking about an old episode of law and order we watched part of
on the treadmill at the gym just hey stranger here's my casual opinion on the worst three years of
your life and a lot of people did that to nation there would be people who would tweet at me that
would be like well you know like this was the democrat a democratic party conspiracy or because
she was a democrat or like if you had a gun in the house she would still be here like reading
comments and everyone wanted this to be like some bigger betrayal or scandal and that was like
that was really fun when you're mourning your wife to to read the comments on local news stations
where people are like well my god it must have been there must have been something up
who knows can't wait to see what comes out it's like you do realize this is my life right
honestly no no i i don't think most people realize truly in their bones and their souls and their
hearts that this is nation's life because they see it on the same TV as law and order in the same
chair is when they watch SVU and so they expect things from it like they do from CSI or cold case
or any of the billion other shows that are about murder and mystery and death and that have like
a pretty clear plotline the fact and the fiction can become indistinguishable for us sometimes a lot
of times we don't know Jamie nation or John but we can kind of see where we expect the story to go
and so we are waiting for the story we expect a good story and in a good story there is not a
lot of room for the boring parts but the boring parts are also the important parts like who this
person was and the absence that their death leaves behind these earth shattering things that nation
feels that everybody who loved Jamie feels they're a snooze to anyone else
for all the media that nation refused to participate in you should notice that he did choose to talk
to me and to be on this podcast and there's a reason for that it's because he wanted to tell
his story and Jamie's story without putting John at the center of it i think the hardest part
and the thing that i've thought about the most over the last five plus years is that you know it
becomes about the way the person died and not the way they lived like one of my worst days was
like opening up the local paper's website and seeing the autopsy on the like the front page of it
like and something that i didn't want to read yet that i didn't feel strong after read yet
just staring me in the eye and i mean it's weird right like our culture is really bad at
talking about grief but we're really obsessed with like the act of dying like and i think the same
is true for like this whole true crime onslaught because what we do is we reduce down people right
like that's not no one's nuanced like not even the bad person quote unquote there's like a little
bit of a paint by numbers effective like okay let's define the victim she was pretty she was kind
and she did this thing and then let's move on to the fact that she was murdered by someone who
loved her or proclaimed to love her and certainly who she loved and then like there's not just
the person who's grieving and the widower who can't figure out life and who's injured this betrayal
and i think like so much of our lives are determined by our narrative and like being betrayed
and like going through grief but particularly going through betrayal and going through violent being a
victim of violent crime and a survivor of violent crime and seeing your loved one dying violent
crime like it shifts your whole narrative like you it shakes your trust and it it makes you wary
and worried and it's not like that narrative also like was it was is too nuanced right like for true
crime procedures and podcast and documentaries it's it's you know i think like we
love stories as a society as people um we love good versus evil and so all of these people's
lives my life Jamie's life is turned into like the hero's journey right like good versus evil and
betrayal and love and fairy tale turned to horror story um and like all of those things can be true
it can also be true that some of the attention that nation got from all this press
some of it was really really good at people pouring their hearts out to him
like really meaningful things like nation had always loved the Kennedy family and
Ted Kennedy Jr. reached out to nation after he heard about Jamie's death
so like the really good things that you get in the mail and the sweet notes and the people who
reached out and offered meals and and those things made up for the really terrible things I think
like because they were just more prevalent right like people's goodness was way more on display
than their you know bitterness and anger and it made the like tweets that if I'd only had a gun
my wife would still be here um a little more bearable
John Broyhill is in prison because he was convicted of first degree murder and he will likely
spend the rest of his life in prison the headlines at least for the past year have pretty much
stopped and what was a big news story is now just nation's life a life he has to figure out how
to live without Jamie no one tells you how agonizingly lonely it is to go to bed without the person
you love next to you for like not just days not just weeks but for months and to know that like
that person like who laid on their side and who like wanted to sleep on the left side of the bed
and you know you just fit perfectly like on the other side wrapping your arms around them like
that not just are you alone but like you will never have that person again
a friend of mine and Jamie said that in the aftermath of her death they broke down in tears one day
and they told their partner they said you know the thing that I'm most afraid of is that people
will take the opposite lesson from Jamie's life they'll lock their doors they'll close themselves
off to people they will think that we can build walls and put up security systems and like
that we shouldn't trust anyone nation's life is not just sadness and tears it's I mean it's
sadness and tears and it's working on the social justice causes that he and Jamie were planning
to spend their life on it's a whole range of experiences and emotions that aren't exciting
enough to be headline news you know like maybe three months later you're on a boat with someone
with a lovely person in their kids and you I mean this happened right and I see a Paul Eagle and
its babies and sun shining and it's just lovely and I wouldn't have thought I would have ever
experienced that again but at the same time like that night I went home and I was really really sad
because I had experienced it without Jamie right like I didn't have the opportunity to grow a hold
with the person I love um you know no one tells you that some of your best days will be something
for worst days like one of the nights that I seriously didn't know if I could go on was also
at the conclusion of one of the happiest days I had after Jamie died and the feeling was so
overwhelming because I was so happy and it felt like a betrayal that feeling a feeling of wondering
if it's okay to feel happy when you're also so sad that feeling and those baby eagles
they're not exciting enough to be headline news so it's a good thing this is a podcast
now I don't want to compare myself to executive producer Dick Wolf except that's all I've wanted
to do my entire life but how is what we do with this podcast any different than ripping it from
the headlines or boiling down a big intense story into something that you were able to listen to
on your daily commute or while you walk the dog or do dishes I don't know except that when our show
ends we know it's just our show that ends never the story itself the story every story just keeps
going and newscasts and podcasts and law and orders can only just tell a little bit just a few
moments in time there will always be nuance that the headlines can't capture that a podcast can't
capture there will always be more to a story than what you see or what you hear
I'm Nora Macknerney and this has been terrible thanks for asking you can find our show at tta.org we
are a production of feelings and cow an independent podcast production company our team is myself
Marcel Malikibu Jordan Turgen Megan Palmer and Claire Macknerney our theme music is by
Joffrey Lamar Wilson you can always get in touch with us by calling 612-568-4441 or emailing us
terrible at feelings and .co we are working on new episodes right now and if you have an
episode idea for us reach out send us an email call us or go to tta.org and submit your story idea
oh wait there's more I lied we're not done we have a new daily podcast called it's going to be okay
presented by the Hartford and this is one of the episodes we think it ties into the theme of this
episode nicely so it's a little treat for you you can find it's going to be okay wherever you
like to listen to podcasts
I'm Nora Macknerney and it's going to be okay my family and I moved to Phoenix Arizona in 2020
which meant learning a whole new city meeting new friends and truly acclimating to a new climate
and a new ecosystem it meant learning not to use the clothes dryer at night because scorpions will
be attracted to the warmth it meant learning that palm trees need to be trimmed it meant learning
that the thing that looks like a bunch of dead sticks in our yard is actually a beautiful living
plant that is protected under the native species law in Arizona it's called an akiteo
and when we bought the house in the middle of a several years long drought I set
allowed with an earshot of the realtor that we'd probably need to rip out that giant dead plant
and he a normally very calm guy practically shouted nope nope no do not do that
not only because it is protected but because it isn't dead and what I've learned
a sense about this beautiful desert plant like so many desert plants is that it blooms
but only when it can only when there has been enough rain or enough irrigation only when it has
the time and the energy two summers ago it rained a ton here in Phoenix and this akiteo was
green almost all season because it had the energy it had the resources it was not on some endless
quest to constantly be on like many humans are more than once I've heard a self-help author say
something along the lines of if you're not growing you're dying which is very catchy and also
not something that really holds up too much scrutiny even the growing are sometimes dying for
example and sometimes for your survival or your rest or any reason at all you're not meant to be
growing nature teaches us a lot of lessons like that it teaches us that there are seasons for growth
and that there are entire seasons for rest there are even seasons dedicated to looking like a dead
pile of sticks like every deciduous tree in the upper Midwest from October to
May there is a season to looking like a ghoulish ghostly shell of our former selves
there are probably people out there who have very healthy relationships with things like self-improvement
and setting goals for themselves but if you are like me you're not one of them you are a person
who is all or nothing baby and if you are blooming now wonderful if all you can do simply exist
like a pile of sticks wonderful if you have ever become grist in the wheels of the self-help
industry I want this plant in my front yard to offer you a break from growth from performing
from trying to become a different version of you you will bloom again when you're ready
and in town then we'll appreciate you for the pile of sticks that you are
I'm Nora McNerney and it's going to be okay we want to hear from you too you can email us a
voice memo or write out an email the email is in our show description we can call us at 612-568-4441
we are an independent podcast production from feelings and co an independent podcast company
our team is Marcel Malikibu Jordan Turgen Clare McNerney and Megan Palmer our theme music is by secret
audio