Hello, it's Nora. It is summertime and the team at Feelings & Co is not taking a vacation.
We are working on the next few months of episodes and planning out the next 12 months
of work for our team. So while we're out there finding and producing new stories for you,
we are also going to be sharing a few of our older favorites, including this episode.
We'll be back with brand new episodes the first week of August, first Tuesday of August,
and we are still putting out bonus episodes on our premium feed.
You can get the full archive of terrible thanks for asking
and bonus episodes any time at ttfa.org slash premium.
A quick warning that this episode contains references to death and suicide,
plus some strong language.
Let's go from oldest to youngest. Of course you would say that wouldn't you?
So this is Liza, and I am the oldest of the three siblings.
I'm Alex. Oh no, we're doing youngest oldest.
It's okay. Keep going. I'm the baby.
My name is Dave. I'm the middle brother, the only brother.
And you know what, you get skipped over, which I'm a middle child, so I'm sensitive to that.
I'm Nora McInerney, and this is terrible.
Thanks for asking.
This, all this banter you just heard, that's what it sounds like when a group of siblings
get together, or when a group of siblings who like each other get together at least.
If I weren't in the studio with my headphones on, with my producer Hans here,
I would be able to confuse this with my own siblings.
There's the talking over one another, it's all the laughing,
the finishing of each other's sentences, more laughing, more talking over one another.
But these are not my siblings. This is David, Liza, and Alex Achille.
Do you ever get into like dead, dead contests with people?
Where you're like, people are like, oh, how'd your dead die?
And you're like, I want you to go first because I'm a popular drop of bomb.
Or the best is when someone's talking about their parents and you say,
really well minor dead.
Thanks a lot, thanks for rubbing it in with a minor dead.
Yeah, oh god, are your parents sending you too many text messages?
Is that annoying to you?
I'm sorry.
Oh, you have to call her back, really, that's unfortunate.
Well, thanks a lot, I never had to call my mom.
Liza and David and Alex are all crammed together into a little studio to talk with me
because Alex, who's the baby of the family by almost nine years, emailed us with their story.
The story is that bomb that David talked about dropping.
It's a big one. It's a doozy.
It includes a dad who was killed by a hitman
in a dispute over a girlfriend and a mother who died in a fiery car wreck four years after that.
So you'd understand if we made this an episode about two extremely tragic and headline-worthy
parental deaths because WTF, your dad is murdered and then your mom drives her car off a cliff
and dies in an inferno, like even as a plotline in a soap opera, even as a TTFA episode,
that's a little much.
But it turns out this story isn't so much about their traumatic orphaning, it's just about them.
The kids, the siblings, David, Liza, and Alex Achilles.
I was curling my sister's hair this morning and the bathroom and my brother was in the shower
and Liza was like, hold on, hold on, hold on, she ran, got a big old bucket of cold water
and poured it on my brother and like that's just totally awesome for me.
That's what we used to do all the time. It was like all bringing back all the memories.
Alex, Liza, and David grew up in Las Gatos, California.
It was a blended family led by their mom, Michelle.
Michelle had had a traumatic childhood and her goal in life was to raise a family that was the
opposite of what she had growing up. Michelle just wanted to give her kids the best childhood they
could possibly have. And she succeeded. Michelle was the best mom.
Not like me, not like your mom who just got the number one mom mug because your teacher made
you make one. I mean like even I have one. Michelle though, Michelle was the number one mom.
She would make us macaroni and cheese, craft, and hot dogs, but damn it if it wasn't the perfect
consistency and warmth and just the best cook. But she also wasn't really good. She could make a
meal out of nothing. Yeah, yeah. Slop. That was the totally. That was the last meal that she
made me before she was. Awesome. As frozen in my freezer when she was. Nice. What is Slop?
Green beans, rice, and ground beef with like teriyaki. Teriyaki soy sauce. We had nothing in the fridge
one night and she's like, I'm going to make you guys the best dinner ever. This is an old family
recipe. We call it Slop. Really, she was completely winging it. It's a traditional family meal now.
Michelle was also the best listener and the best looking which kind of feels like a gross thing to
say and are looks important to how good of a mom you are of course not. But when you happen to look
like Christie Brinkley, it's just a thing that people bring up which means a lot of uncomfortable
conversations about your mom in front of you. Like killed me because all my friends like your mom
is so hot. Totally. Growing up was like, oh my god, your mom. Oh my god, your mom's like, why
and the older the finer huh? Which that was like so annoying. But even though Michelle was the best,
the kids knew that their mother hadn't always been the happy mom that they knew her as. She struggled
with mental illness her whole life and through like her own childhood traumas. Michelle was open
with her children about her struggles including her first suicide attempt at age 10. She had a scar
on her wrists from the early one and she was totally like, I tried to kill myself. Like she never,
she never hit it from us because she was almost teaching us like, people can get to this point in
life and then she would follow it up with like, but I love you guys so much that I would never do
that to you again. Right. Michelle was always a great mom even if she didn't have the greatest
tasting guys. But when Liza was nine and David was seven, Michelle married a guy who was just as
great as her. His name was Mark Achille. And so he was, I guess you would call him our stepdad but
we always considered him our dad. Like we referred to him as dad. Mark was considered the unofficial
mayor of Las Gatos. He was a kind of cool, friendly handsome guy who knew everyone everywhere he
went. It probably helped that he was also a bartender. Mark and Michelle had Alex, the baby of
the family and the Achilles were a happy family of five. Mark and Michelle were great parents
and great friends to each other. But when Alex was nine, they realized that they weren't great at
being married to each other and separated. This is where you may expect things to go off the rails
but no. Mark and Michelle were really great at being separated too. They were friendly. They
still had family dinners. Mark and Michelle were co-parenting when it wasn't called co-parenting.
Liza and David were off on their own, but Mark's flexible schedule meant that he and Alex had lots
of time together. Here's Alex. He picked me up from school every morning. We would go to the donut
shop. He'd get coffee. I'd get a donut. He'd take me to school. He'd pick me up from school. He'd
take me to all my sporting events. He was like, he was my person. It was just me and him at his house
because my brother and sister were grown and off and living on their own. So when I was at my dad,
it was just me and him and he was my bud. Eventually, Mark started dating someone younger.
He bought a restaurant and then another and he found success that he hadn't had while he was with
Michelle. Even though he still came by the house for dinner, it was hard for Michelle not to feel
like he traded her in for a newer model. One who was just a few years older than her oldest daughter.
Like, my parents never bought a house when they were together. They didn't have a nice car.
And so then it was like, all the sudden, my dad leaves and then buys this bar and gets
this and was like, very successful. And then she's like, well, what the hell? Like, where was this
when we were married? But she would never do anything that would like make it uncomfortable for
the other players involved. Like, some ex wives or whenever would text the new girl and be like,
hope you like what you got. You know, blah, blah, blah. Like that was not her style at all.
She was very like classy, even even in anger. Michelle had spent her adult life focused on her family.
Now the husband and the life she'd planned for were gone and the kids she had poured all her time
and energy into were growing up. Alex went to college. Liza and David were full on grown-ups.
And they all knew that their mom was lonely and struggling in this new season of life.
Her dating life was not healthy and she had a series of awful boyfriends. But
Mark was doing great. He got an offer to buy his restaurants for cash and he took it.
He had a much younger woman on his arm and he had a great relationship with all three of his kids.
For Mark, everything was going great. Which is why we're going to take a break here.
Our show is sponsored by BetterHelp. I just got a new therapist and it is consistently the best 55 minutes
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I think one of the wildest things about being a person is we just have to figure it out.
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And we're back.
Liza, David, and Alex are just living their regular lives. Their mom is, you know,
gone through a rough patch. Their dad's doing well, but overall things are just fine and good.
And here's the thing about having your life fall apart. It never happens when you're ready for it.
Doesn't happen when you are fully braced in a defensive stance. Real stable, ready to take the
blow instead. It waits until you least expect it. It waits until you're snug in your little dorm room.
My best friend was my roommate, Trisha. And we had gone out on Thursday night. So we were having like
Thursday as it's exactly. Yeah. And so Friday, we were just lazy couch potatoes in our
study. Yeah, totally studying all day. It waits until you're running some mindless errand.
So I was shopping at Nordstrom. And I had my son who was about six months old at the time.
It waits until you're at work. So I was at work at the time I worked on an ambulance.
When you're busy doing something completely unremarkable, that is when your life decides to explode
like a motor vehicle in a Michael Bay movie. For the Achilles kids, that mundane and unremarkable time
was 11.30am on March 14th, 2008. While Alex nursed her hangover and Liza browsed at Nordstrom
and David drove around in an ambulance. Their dad, Marca Killy, walked out of his townhouse
in Las Gatos and was shot eight times in his own driveway.
So I was standing on the third floor of Nordstrom where the brat by the brass plum department
right by customer service. And I was about to go down the escalator and I got, I heard my cell phone
ring. So I stopped and answered it. And my son was in his stroller. And on the other end was my mom.
And she was almost like inaudible. I couldn't understand what she was saying. And all I heard her say was
Mark's dead, Mark's dead, Mark's dead, Mark's dead, Mark's dead, Mark's dead.
And in that moment, and I can like remember that feeling of thinking there's no way that my
mark is dead. So I know she's not talking about him. And so I said, I mean, I was like, I'll call you back.
And I got a call from our aunt, Norma. Like, hey, Norma, what's up? She's like, hey, David, like,
I heard some disturbing news. I'm like, okay, what's what is it? She's like, I heard, I'm getting
my hair done and someone in the salon here in Las Gatos said, your dad was shot. And I was like,
excuse me? She's like, yeah, do you know anything? Have you heard anything? And I was like,
let me call you back. It was, I was in, I like, I went into shock mode because I was trying to figure out
like, wait, shot. Who? How? What? I couldn't, I just couldn't understand it. And then there's my
six-month-old baby staring up at me. So I immediately like snapped back into reality.
Hey, okay, I have to, I'm a mom. I'm a parent. My baby needs me. So I walked over to customer
service and I had worked at Nordstrom for a long time. So I knew I picked up my baby out of the
shoulder. And I remember like barely even being able to hold him because I was shaking so bad.
And then I called my brother and I was like, I'm here at Nordstrom. I don't know what to do.
So I looked at my partner and he's like, what is happening? And I'm like, hey dude,
drive me to Nordstrom, Valley Fair right now. Like, I was in plan mode. Like, we need to get everybody
here together and then we'll go from there. That was like my goal. Please tell me you turned
on the lights in the siren for the ambulance. No, I did. Because you guys were raised so well.
Yeah, public safety came first. So Alex, at this point, where are you?
I'm in Santa Barbara. In my dorm, Trisha gets a text message from one of our girlfriends in
Las Gatos and said, that said, hey, is Alex okay? And Trisha's like, what? And so she asks me,
she's like, have you talked to your dad today? And I'm like, what? Oh, why? She's like, why? You
just call him. I'm like, okay, so I call, call, call. I think I called him like three or four times,
doesn't answer. And then I called Sue Farwell, which is my dad's business partner who he own the
businesses with. And she just answered the phone. And it was, she just said, Alex, I'm so sorry.
I think I just like fell to the floor, started screaming. I like hung up the phone. And then I
remember just being like, I need to go home. I need to go home right now.
We kill kids all head home, back to their mom. Michelle is just as shocked as they are. And none of
it makes sense. Why would their dad have been murdered in his driveway on a Friday morning
in the town he loved? They don't have answers, but they have each other. And once again,
Michelle's kids need her. And then Mark died. And I think it broke her, like broke her bad. Like,
it was like just summing up everything that had ever been bad in her life. And so I remember like
she struggled her whole life with like drug and alcohol abuse and was really, really good for a
long time. But I started seeing like, inklings of that starting to enter her life again. And then
you would call her out on it. And she would guilt you into like why you should feel bad for her.
And all these things like now she was a victim like to the max. And it was her excuse to like
play the victim part. And that sucked.
This is what it looks like when Michelle starts to break. Just a few days after Mark's death,
Michelle decided she wanted a drink, which turned into many drinks, which turned into Michelle
getting very, very drunk. A family friend called Dave who met his mother in the parking lot of a
strip mall. I was like pissed because I'm like hold on a second. Don't start drinking now. Like
don't you're keeping this whole thing together. Like what are you doing? And we got into it.
Which was my mistake. Like I regret it so bad. But I totally engaged. And like we screamed at
each other and she snapped. Literally got out of the car, crawled underneath the car, was saying
the demons are going to get me. And I was like now I went from mad to freaked out. And I was like
trying to get her out from under the car. And she's like she wouldn't come out.
Dave called his sister Liza and the two of them decided together to call an ambulance and have
their mother taken to the psych ward at the county hospital. And like we get a call and I put it
on speaker phone and it was my mom and she was like I never want to, this is from the psych ward.
She's like I never want to see you again. You're not my son. How could you do this to me? You
disloyal little shit like and like basically confirmed every hell that I was feeling. And I just
look at my wife Kate or my fiance at the time. Now my beautiful sexy wife.
And I looked at her and I was just like I just want to disappear. Like and thank God the next morning
like when we picked her up my mom like apologized and said she didn't mean any of that stuff.
But you could tell she was still like you should have done that. Like but don't worry about it.
We're good. And like it was kind of a point of contention forever between us. But I know now like
I was just making a choice in the moment and like I mean I would challenge anybody to be there and like
have to do what I had to do at the same time. So I don't feel so bad anymore you know. But it was hell.
The hell.
Michelle pulls it together for her kids. Those kids she needed and missed they need her again. And she
rallies for them. I feel like we had a lot of sessions there where we like I was able to fully
explain like what I was upset about while I was angry and what I was worried about and what I was
sad about and my mom was really good like at like she wanted to take care of everything which to
a fault which like so that we could like go through it and we did. So I feel like the grieving
process like was healthy not over but like healthy but there was always this looming weight of trial.
A few weeks after their dad's murder the story started to come together. The police arrested a
man named Paul Garcia. Paul was actually the one who had bought their dad's bar in restaurant and
Paul was also involved with and in love with the bartender at the bar who was Mark's girlfriend
and according to police Paul was the one who paid three other men to kill Mark.
So that's a lot for Liza, Dave and Alex to take in. Your dad is dead. Your dad is dead because
he was murdered. That's a lot. Now your dad is dead and was murdered because he's one of
three points in a love triangle. Your dad is dead and murdered because he was in a love triangle
and now it's headline news in your hometown. More arrests are made and eventually
there are four men charged in their dad's murder. So now we're like kind of trying to finish
up grieving and I felt like we were being forced to keep this wound like open with salt and lemon
ported and keep stabbing it and like like we whether we wanted to and tried as hard as we
possibly could we had no choice but to keep rehashing and living this like hell for years,
years which is like cruel. It's really cruel to do this to somebody.
When Dave says years he means years it took two years after their dad's murder for a very
public trial to begin. The prosecution paints Paul Garcia as a jilted lover out for revenge against
Marcus Killie. The defense suggest Mark was murdered for a drug dad. It's literally headline news
and then some the local paper set up a live blog and a Twitter account dedicated just to providing
updates throughout the trial and everyone everyone in town came out to spectate.
It was so weird. We had a fight for seats at our dad's trial from like strangers. Like one time
this guy was like this is my seat and I'm sitting here I'm like who are you and he's like I'm just
a guest I'm sitting here I'm like get the fuck out of that seat I'm sitting like I had to fight
for the right to be in there. Which you're the Joker and you lighten the mood like when it gets
serious so for you to have to get to that point is like so stressful level like you. Which annoyed
me so bad too. I'm like I wanted everyone just to go home. Yeah seriously. It was all alone. Yeah
like it's news for you but it's life for my life. Yeah the world breaks everyone and after many
are stronger in the broken places. I wrote that I'm just kidding it's it's Hemingway and it's true
many are stronger in the broken places and many are not many are just broken many just
limp along as best they can for as long as they can until the duct tape starts to peel and the
truth of their hurt is too obvious to ignore any longer. Mark's trial had given Michelle renewed
purpose in life. The trial was a place to go a thing to focus on in her grief. She was at the trial
every single day with one purpose to support justice for her murdered sort of ex-husband.
Looking through all of the headlines around the murder I thought wow she looks amazing.
I'm a shallow person but also she really did look so beautiful and if I were ever murdered I would
hope that my current husband would also look good and also show up every day and wrestle some
justice out of the system. The Achilles kids were there at the trial sometimes but they couldn't be
there every day like their mom was and while Michelle looked strong and capable and very beautiful
Mark's murder and this trial took a huge toll. All those demons and shit that she had to go through
she just bottled it up put it away for later well now it's later right. On May 10, 2010 the jury
found all four defendants guilty of first degree murder. Michelle got justice for Mark but
nobody really won. The bullets didn't just hit Mark. Michelle said during the sentencing we all
have pieces of them in us. After the sentencing only one of the four defendants chose to speak
22-year-old Daniel Chidez the man who had pulled the trigger. Here's Alex.
He was up there for probably like 10 minutes and he had such a bad stuttering problem that he
probably only got out I'm sorry like I'm so sorry and the judge kept asking him like Mr. Chidez
are you done are you done and he kept saying no I'm not done and it just I just felt so bad for him
because he ruined his life and made such a stupid decision and he had a daughter that this
daughter was gonna have to grow up for part of her life without a dad and it just made me feel
terrible that one little stupid decision ruined so many people's lives.
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weepy little creature hey na wie geht's dir oh no no how long did two weeks come hey
das geht schneller vorbei als du denkst du willst auch ein Job den du liebst dann kommt
zur lufthansa-group über 50 ausbildungsberufe von it übertechnik bis zum kokpet fly beg
auf lufthansa-group um koreas the cruelest thing about the world is that it just keeps moving no
matter how stuck you feel the world had kept turning without mark kept turning after the trial
and michelle had been having a hard time keeping up after the trial was over michelle's trouble amplified
one night the kids get a call that she has attempted suicide she had taken a whole bottle of
annex drink a bottle of wine and locked herself in her car before her landlord found her
that was like the beginning of the the you could see now there was a battle like
she had her good months and her bad months but there was definite like now all the blinds were pulled
back for a while michelle left california to live in milwaki with liza her oldest
there came a point when she was staying with me where i was like these are the rules of my house
this is how it has to be for the safety of everybody and them like well-being of everybody
and um she was like then i'm not staying here so um you know when you like one of the things that i
struggle with a lot and at that i'm like trying to get better at not doing with is like you think
about all the things that you say like shit did i yell at her too much did i not yell at her enough
was i too nice to her was i not nice enough should i have forced her to go somewhere should i have
you know the all the shit of could of what of and i i think about you know there was this like one
defining moment of like again having an argument with her and and her saying like i am sick like
you don't understand i am sick it's not like i'm choosing to live like this i you think i want
to live this way but i don't and i thought that she just it was as easy as making a choice like you
either choose to stay in your sickness or you choose to get better and i felt like she wasn't choosing
to get better i feel guilty about thinking like she had a choice well you said yes to living with
her and she asked us that we said no so so i'm better so you're better than me i win the best child
okay i think there were many conversations between all three of us kids that after we all talked
about it and made a blatant effort to be like okay if she really doesn't want to live like we
got to make sure that if she dies we can always look back so that we can live our lives knowing
that we did everything we could and i think we did i feel that way i really think we did like
supported her through like even as the little things of like going with her to appointments to
counseling and like getting her a pill box so that she could keep her meant you know her pills
organized and cleaning her house and bringing her food and groceries and at the very end she was
totally like i thought like i think we're coming out of this mom was like sober and like i was
even letting her watch our daughter now and like i really felt like right at the time she died i
was like i think we're on the uphill now or whatever the downhill whatever like we're in the good
part however you say now even if it's happened before and even if you know i could happen again
you're still never ready for your life to fall apart because you know it waits
it waits until you're home from a day on the lake with your friends i like laid down in bed and i
was like kind of like resting napping whatever it waits until you're out picking up some stuff you need
i was coming home from target it waits until another regular day at work i was now a firefighter
that is when your life decides to fall apart again and i hear a call go out for a wild fire
started by a car fire and i was like woo we got a ripper here what Dave didn't know was that his
mother's car had gone off the road at around 12 20 a.m outside of saratoga california
so we have a rig that goes to those kind of calls and uh earlier i had talked to my mom
about watching my daughter Clara on Tuesday and we had to cut the call short because we got a call
i tried to call later she didn't pick up her phone this fire happens the next morning i wake up
and the guys at work are talking about yeah did you hear about that fire they found a body
this is Tuesday now like oh crazy then later that night i'm i get off duty i'm going to
hang out with my friends and uh i left home and my wife Kate calls me and she's like crying
you need to come home the coroner's are here and i immediately knew i was like is she dead is she
dead and like i just knew then i went home and turns out she died uh in that car fire that i almost
went to for work and then my brother called me and i think i ignored your first call because i was
like i'm tired i just want to like rest for a second and then he called again so i finally picked up
and all he said is mom's dead and i was like okay thought he was joking he was joking i was like
that's a sick joke um please don't joke about that he was like Alex i'm serious like mom mom is dead
and i lost it i was alone at my house so i hung up the phone i remember going to the bathroom
like nothing was even coming up but i just felt so sick which is the same reaction that
i had when my dad when i got the phone call about my dad i kept running back and forth from
to the toilet not even throwing up just dry heaving
Dave called me it was about nine o'clock at night and um and i was like just at the corner from
my house i could see my house and uh Dave used to like halizer and i'm like hi what's up
and he's like nothing and i could tell in his voice i knew something was wrong so i go what's going
on and he goes uh what are you doing right now and i said driving home he goes okay well call me
when you get back home and i go no tell me now and i it was like it's what is it that you know
like you just know something is probably i was like what are you doing no you can work
so i i pulled over and i could see my house from where i pulled over so i was almost home and
he's you're stopped the car you're not driving i said no i'm not driving he goes okay
well mom is dead and i like time stopped
and i just remember saying okay okay okay okay and i kept saying it over and over again and
Dave goes are you okay and i go well i'm okay i'm okay i'm okay i'm gonna call you back and
and i drove through my alley got my car parked into the garage
shut grabbed all my groceries and um shut the garage door and then i ran like as fast as i could
holding a bunch of groceries and as soon as i got into the house it was like
the moment that time had stopped it had all sped back up and crashed into me and i collapsed
when i got inside and my husband was sitting on the couch and he looked at me and he was like
what is wrong and i said i just said like my mom is dead and i was just i like couldn't speak
and i just like wailed and i remembered like like a gut level soul whale because i felt like
like like hope not just my mom had died but like my hope had died
and i knew like the last couple times i had seen my mom i was so conscious about how i hugged her
and how i said goodbye to her because i knew uh some like deep part of myself that that was probably
the last time i was gonna see her
so i just
got into action mode and was like i made some phone calls and i was on a plane at like 10 o'clock
the next morning to california i even did laundry that night like it's so weird how you have these
moments of lucidity in like your grief michelle's death like her husband's was headline news in
Las Gatos the articles said the same thing she was a great person a great wife a great mom
here is what those articles didn't say she was driving in the mountains at night which is
so not normal for my mom she hated driving especially at night and there was nothing for her
to be in that area why she was there so we don't know the exact circumstances and no one ever will
but she was in a really weird place at a really weird time and drove off a cliff
which brings us back to that crowded radio studio where the Achilles kids are packed in to talk
about all this tragedy with a total stranger that'd be me it's crowded in that studio but
that studio holds the entire Achilles family the three of them David, Liza and Alex are all
that's left and while it's the nature of families to expand and contract and while Liza and David
each have kids of their own this little group in a studio is what remains of the nucleus
all of the shared memories and experiences of mark and michelle Achilles as parents are in this room
together I mean we've always been really close um growing up and but I feel like
they've been they've filled they've filled the roles as my parents for the most part when something
exciting happens they're the first people I call and something that happens they're the first
people I want to call um like I want my brother to walk me down the aisle when I get married and
I I wouldn't I don't think I'd be here without them I know I wouldn't be here without them
we do a really good job at keeping us all afloat and that if Liza crumbles my brother and I are
here if I crumble my brother and stir here if Dave crumbles were here and we just do a really good
job at keeping us together and where are we're the three musketeers it's like like war if you go to war
like you go through stuff together that like breaks you down to your core like one or two things
happens either go your separate ways and never want to see those people again or you're bonded
for life and we already had the bonding and it just like made it like we need each other now more
than ever because it's like what's all we got left it's all we got left and like yeah
you never know when you're a parent if you're doing a good job all families are complicated
but all you want to know is that your kids will all love each other and be there for each other
that you did a good enough job with them that they can do that that they'll be okay
even if you're murdered in your driveway or if you die in a fiery car wreck
that when the world breaks them and it will that they'll be stronger in the broken places
and if they aren't or they can't be that they'll at least have each other to carry them along
uh all right thank you thank you bye bye
good job guys how are you guys i think we did it justice i think it was really good you
and what you said about mom was really good so good
yeah god yeah i want to hear it so bad i was like freezing born and sledding same
i'm Nora Macknerney and this has been terrible thanks for asking you can find our show
at ttfa.org we are a production of feelings and cow an independent podcast production company
our team is myself Marcel Malikibu Jordan Turgeon Megan Palmer and Claire Macknerney
our theme music is by Joffrey Lamar Wilson you can always get in touch with us by calling
612-568-4441 or emailing us terrible at feelings and .co we are working on new episodes right now
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