Riding the Toronto Blue Jays' Rollercoaster With Richard Griffin & Scott MacArthur

I'm going to ask you about Bad Talk, but yes, just what's next. Okay, here we go. This is the Bob McCown podcast brought to you by Bet Rivers, download the Bet Rivers online Casino and sportsbook app today, Darren Mallard in all week for Robert, Robert Lee back later in the week, just to chime in and tell him, I'm full of it, but that's okay. I'm used to that. It's only 20 years. So Darren, the Blue Jackets had their press conference yesterday, John Davidson, Yarmul Kekalainen, camp starts tomorrow, the new coach Pascal Visson, notice how he's head that this song. Yeah. I'm going to make sure that Jeff Rimmer says it that way. Is this thing done now? Is it over? Does it have any after life? What do you see happening? You've been around the game Mahaki a long time. From a Columbus Blue Jacket point of view, if things don't go well early and don't go well this season, it will have after effects. They'll be tremors and it could impact job status moving on up. The thing I'm focused on is athletes love the world against them and battling back. In the world, it's stacked against Columbus. They can make this a story in a positive way. That room Pascal and then upper management, but if it doesn't go in the storybook fashion, I think there's going to be some domino still to fall. Yeah. I think you're probably right. I mean, the best thing for the Blue Jackets would have been if they could play a game tonight. Yeah. You know, because we were actually talking to a couple of people. This is tantamount to what the boss of Bruins went through with young Mitch Miller, the drafted player that they signed and then all the issues that Miller had, Tamini came out, took the blame, took the heat because he's the president of the hockey club and then the Bruins went 10 and 2 and nobody brought Mitch Miller up again. So it was finding a way and I just hope for the sake of the players and those people in Columbus that they're able to learn from it, find a silver lining as a team and hopefully have a fruitful and quick camp in order to get to the regular season. You know this. Batcock is gone and if things stumble out of the gate, people are going to be looking for somebody to talk about or to blame and without Batcock being there, it falls on others. Yes. And it's others that aren't and right now those others are two guys and that's John Davidson and Yarmul Kekalainen who took full responsibility for everything yesterday. We are going to shift from hockey to baseball for our topic today, two of our favorite guys, two of our friends, Rich Griffin and Scott MacArthur who have their own podcast. I don't think we'll promote that, but I think we'll talk about it a little bit and talk about what it right, it has been for Canada's Major League baseball team, the Toronto Blue Jays and perhaps a quick look at some other stories in and around the Jays and Major League baseball. Scott MacArthur, Rich Griffin along with Darren Mallard and me on the Macauin podcast. Hi, this is Bob Macauin for betrivers.com. Hey, if you're looking for a sports book or casino app, you should check out the betrivers sports and casino app today. Play all of your favorite casino games for real money anywhere and any time plus get any action with each sports game with hundreds of sports betting options and get ready to feel like a VIP because you'll earn both loyalty level points and bonus store points on every real money wager you make. You must be 19 plus available in Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, contact Connex Ontario at 1 8 6 6 5 3 1 2600 or speak to an advisor free of charge betrivers.com. Welcome back to the Macauin podcast and welcome back to the roller coaster. Seven days ago, everybody was off the bandwagon now with 12 games to go six against the Yankees six against the raise. Everybody's back on the Blue J Wagon as they are the number one wild card at this point, I guess, in the American League joining joined by Rich Griffin and Scott MacArthur. Boys, I'd say welcome and give us a plug for your own podcast. So what is the name of your podcast? Griff's going to leave it to me. I could tell that a look on your in your eyes, Griff. No, you said you've got, you've got the, you've got the radius. Yeah, you've got the speed. The podcast is called exit philosophy with Griffin, Scotty Mac and it's available wherever you get your podcasts in audio form. And we also have a YouTube page, youtube.com slash exit philosophy, heavy, heavy blue jays talk, but also general baseball and a little bit of life as well. We record each and every Monday is that what you guys have told us that they're going to make the playoffs or not. Have we already determined that? It's a roller coaster, but we're riding it to the end. It is absolutely amazing, because we'll talk about the last 12 games in a bit, but it is absolutely amazing what the ride has been since the end of March. I mean, expectations were so high. This, you know, this was not supposed to be a team in third position in the American League East. Everybody thought that if there was to be a team that was going to be at the top of the list, I assume everybody thought it would be Tampa. And then everybody thought that, you know, it was going to be Baltimore, Toronto and heaven knows what the other two bohemists were going to do in the Yankees and the Red Sox. But Rick, you know, there's, there's just still so many question marks. Even if you think that, you know, they have the inside track to play in the playoffs, don't they? Yeah, Baltimore and Tampa are pretty much locked into the division and the first wildcard spot in it. And that's up in the air, which, which means Tampa has something to play for when they play the blue jays six of the last 12 games. So that makes it very interesting for both those teams. But like you said, John, I mean, this blue jays team before the season started with a pitching that they have. It was expected that the offense would be better and that they would carry the division and they would be at the top, either in that spot now occupied by Baltimore or Tampa Bay, but it hasn't happened. And luckily for them, the pitching has been good. The starting pitching has been good, they've, they've really deepened the bullpen and made it like a foreening effective bullpen, which you're going to need in the post season, which these days, with guys high fiveing after five innings starts, you really need during the regular season. But it has been a disappointing year for the jays thus far, but their fate is in their own hands. And that's in sports. That's what we like to say. Scotty, why can they make it? Why won't they make it? Give me both sides of that. Well, I think it's likely they do make it. And I say this having watched them for five and a half months fully aware that they could crater over the next two weeks against the Yankees and raise. And if that happens, I presume that it will be the offense as fault because that has been. The issue with this team, but with Seattle and Texas still do to play each other, a couple of series here between now and the end of the year, as long as the blue jays win a reasonable portion of their remaining games, they will gain enough ground or remain ahead of one of those two Mariners or Rangers teams to get in. I don't know if there'll be the second wild card or the third and final wild card and they will play on the road. And it would be at Baltimore Tampa Bay or Minnesota, depending on where they slot in the second or third wild card. Why won't they make it? Darren, if they don't make it, it's because they spent the final two weeks looking too much like how they looked for a lot of the first five and a half months. And that is a team that doesn't hit and that is a team that plays extremely poorly within its own division. Now the Yankees team that handled them back in May is not the Yankees team. Now there are a lot of young players in that Yankees line up. There are some injuries. So that's why I am assuming perhaps erroneously that the jays will fare much better in the Bronx this week and at home against the Yankees next week. Um, I do think they're going to get it. Six and six will six and six get them in. Uh, eight, eight and four would get them to 91 wins and Griff and I are of the opinion that it's got to look 91 and 71. And so, so you got to go eight and four in my to be safe. Six and six might, but eight and four will. In fact, Scotty the magic number against all three of those AL West teams for the blue jays is 12. So if they go eight and four and there's two teams playing seven times that are in that grouping. Then one of those teams has to lose four games. So if they lose four games and the jays win eight games 91 becomes that number and they're in. So basically they got to go eight and four and I texted Pete Walker this morning so he could get some sleep the rest of the way after a loss. And, uh, and yes, so it definitely is in their own hands, uh, John to your point six and six would still allow them. And a good opportunity because the team that lost those four games against the Mariners and the Rangers would have to win the rest of their schedule to prevent the jays at six and six from getting in. So like for some crazy reason they're right in the mix after being swept at home by the Rangers. And ignominiously being dumped from the wild card mix and now they're back. You know that 91 wins gosh that that's a haunting number when you think that the last two years what were they 91 wins or 92 wins 91 and so so so where I mean this he was supposed to grow and build upon those last two years and I would assume Scotty that is the biggest frustration that they haven't been able to grow. And so that's the last where they were just out of the playoff last year and being swept in the wild card at home or two years ago and then being swept at home in the wild card last year and John, I'll just circle back to how you introduce the entire segment and you did it quite rightly but it made me smirk because you called it what we all call it which is a playoff race. It doesn't feel like a race unless it's some kind of four by 100 where the blue jays are like here Texas have the baton and then Texas is like nah now we're good you have it back it feels more like a tortoise trot than it then it does a playoff race but but to your point they made some significant changes to their team last off season and it was set. It's centered on run prevention and without question the outfield defense has vastly vastly improved this year it's in arguable Kevin Kiermeyer coming off a hip surgery still has it defensively in center field and Dalton Varsho is a better left fielder than anybody particularly Lorde Scoreal junior that they had manning the position last year. It's been a consequence to that though which is Dalton Varsho who is still a young player at 26 years old has not taken the next step offensively he came to the blue jays as a low on base high slugging percentage against right handed pitchers he's a left handed hitter so the favorable matchup he came as a low on base high slugging percentage guy. And I think when we looked at his OPS against right handed pitchers if we didn't look further and break down the OBP and the slugging percentages we might have thought well this guy this guy is going to be on base 35 36% of the time against the predominant hand the right hand the right handed pitchers and it just hasn't happened he needs to continue to progress he needs to take another step offensively next year for this trade to look better. But they have succeeded in the run prevention element they have done so at the expense of some offense which when compounded with Vladimir Guerrero juniors very underwhelming season has led to a lot of the offensive frustration that we've witnessed since the start of April. Johnny one thing to consider and there and you would understand this part of the competitive nature of major league baseball compared to the NBA and compared to the NHL where the halves are going to beat the have not 90% of the time when in fact in baseball you've got four teams above the 600 win percentage four teams below 400 and the rest are all grouped in the middle there. And when they expanded to three wild card teams all of a sudden more teams stay in the race. It used to be that a team with 97 wins might not even be a wild card when it was only one wild card. I remember the Giants had 100 and didn't make the playoffs 100 wins didn't make the playoffs but now there's a restriction in September they went from allowing 40 men on the roster. You could only add two scenarios 28 maximum on the roster there's every team above 500 on September first believes that they can still earn a wild card birth so you've got more teams competitive in the final month and they used to be a separation in September with teams playing youngsters because they knew they were out of it there's only one wild card. And now you go into it and and Texas Rangers sweep the Jays in Toronto and then they go to Cleveland and Cleveland has a pretty good team they've got a pretty good team and and when you've got a five man rotation it's like in the NHL if you had a different goal tender for five straight days so different guy every night and that would make a huge difference. The pitching matchup in Cleveland they've got young starters trying to prove themselves they've got a lineup that can produce runs especially at home and you saw what happened so I think that the the target win total can no longer be considered mid 90s high 90s for wild card has got to be the low 90s 90 91 92 and that's what the Jays are aiming for. You know you bring up an interesting point rich that in the other sports there's a real belief particularly in basketball and hockey is get in and win because of the way they're officiating changes in both sports and the way that you know you can approach a seven game playoff series is is that the case in baseball is is this a case of win and get in particularly if you have a pitching staff like the Jays have. I'm going to defer to Scotty because he has some strong views on this which to get in and win yeah well this this for me and so I'm I'm now I'm like George Costanza or a George a Scott divided against himself cannot stand. Joe is your wallet. Yeah. It's both an organizer and a friend. I'm a rotation device. So I am very pro. The expanded playoff format because for all the reasons rich laid out more teams are in it later into the season keeps the fan bases engaged the 1993. Barry bonds led San Francisco Giants 102 games and didn't get into the playoffs because the Atlanta Braves with 103 wins won the National League West it used to be the two division winners in in each league going directly to their championship series so this is good for the game. The flip side of it is that you will end up inevitably with teams that don't necessarily deserve to make the playoffs based on how they've performed over 162 games getting in. And then oops there are going to be times when a team that was pretty middling for 162 games wins the world series that almost happened last year with the Philadelphia Phillies it is going to happen and wouldn't it be funny. And I guess a ha ha sort of funny if it's the blue jays this year because if Vladimir Guerrero Jr. suddenly finds the home run stroke more consistently and starts hitting them in the playoffs picture of Vladie three run Jack early mid or even late in a ballgame like he had against the Boston Red Sox on Friday night that accounted for all of the scoring in that game because Jose Boreos and the bullpen were brilliant. That's how you can win games that's how you can get hot at the right time even if you're not stout one through nine in your lineup. So as critical as I have been of this blue jays team particularly the front office which has much to do with its act more so than what it's done in terms of laying out a 26 year in this case in September 28 man roster. It is conceivable. I don't think it's necessarily likely but it is conceivable that the Toronto blue jays could win the world series this year if certain bats get hot at the right time and the pitching keeps up. I love the fact that six and six could possibly get them in the playoffs that like that is a microcosm of the entire year with blue jays but Richard describe this team this performance this year is it middling is it. Underwhelming is it good enough so we should just be happy with that well there's there's a cliche that's overused in baseball so I'll use it that the baseball season is a marathon not a sprint and the blue jays built because of their close call in two years ago when they won 91 and failed to make the playoffs and then just barely making it last year they've built. The front office is built this team for the marathon so their pitching staff is one of the top three or four in the in the American League in terms of overall depth and ability to handle a 162 game schedule they have five starters who have taken the ball every day every fifth day they have a bullpen that can carry you from the fifth to the ninth inning on consecutive days because they're so deep and once you get to the playoffs. That becomes an issue because everybody goes first sign of trouble take the starter out I mean that's a way it's been since the San Francisco Giants won world series in 2010 12 and 14 based around their bullpen and five inning starts but the blue jays are at a disadvantage when they get to the post season in terms of a sprint now it becomes a sprint now you got a five games or a three game series. The teams with the loaded front ends of their rotation with two or three really studly guys at the top of their rotation have an advantage over the blue jays who are just consistent they're deep and so I will that's what you know you get to the post season you got a chance and like Scotty said it may come down to somebody in the lineup getting hot and carrying them to victory rather than what they've been doing. Relying on the starting pitching basically throughout the course of the season and yes they've under achieved they've under a tree under achieved dramatically and you know they're what is it now Scotty 15 and 25 in the AL East they're eight and two in the AL East since August 2nd which is good so they've got 12 games left against the AL East so you know you can make an argument either way using the same stat. But I think that they have vastly under achieved they should be where Tampa Bay is right now Baltimore surprised everybody and that's part of you know the way that Baltimore and Boston have handled the jays this year has sort of created that difference in their record from last year to this year but yeah it's been a disappointing season and you can see it on Twitter or whatever you want to call it from fans who should be here. They're going to be celebrating six and six down the stretch. Embrace embrace mediocrity if it's going to help you. I sent out a tweet this morning about the numbers the magic number 12 and the eight and four clinches a playoff spot for the jays and the negative response to that was unbelievable and I just don't understand it like either you're a fan of the team you're a fan of the game. And the nuances or you don't. Well what I want to know is your discussion rich of the pitching staff. I mean Kevin Gosman's going to start. I would assume Bereas is going to start. I would assume Bassett's going to start does it end there and do they rotate with with days off and with schedule does it is it just those three that there's an expectation. I mean you know we've had a we've had a big discussion on exit philosophy and Scotty Scotty had some ideas on that what do you got Scotty well so you're going to play a three game series on the road. And if we know this front offices history and it was strange to us when it happened in 2020 but once we step back emotionally it made sense. The two 10 we will call pitch the second game, which turned out to be an elimination game depending on how game one goes it's a clincher or it's an elimination game against Tampa Bay that year. I think Kevin Gosman now if they can this of course the caveat is they've got to be able to lie in their rotation up which means that they're safely in a playoff spot by the final weekend of the season when the Tampa Bay raised. I think Kevin Gossman starts game two of that three game series because you're either going to clinch and advance or you're trying to stave off elimination to get yourself to game three. Jose Boreos for me is your game three starter because he's been your second best starting pitcher this year, Gossman being your best. So Chris Bassett to me is the game one starter against either the Orioles raise or twins if they get in it'll be one of those three opponents so I would line it up bass it. Gossman Boreos if I can and if you advance to a best of five division series and you go with a fourth starter that's Hyunjin Ryu he is not a reliever and he is not being left off of the postseason roster and he is worthy of a roster spot given how he's pitched. And Griff and I both agree on this and you can add to it Griff if you want but I think you say Kukuchi will revert to what he was late last season and that is a left hander in support of Tim Mazza down in that bullpen who can dot 96 with his fastball and and so I think Kukuchi profiles better out of the pen Ryu is starter or bust and you're not busted. I think Kukuchi's August and September has been like a 1.9 earthquake on the Richter scale you sort of feel a little tremor you feel it but you're not sure what you're feeling and that's the case with Kukuchi he just totally collapsed his previous two second halves last year when he collapsed he did a serviceable job out of the bullpen as a two or three inning reliever and given the propensity of. Managers in the postseason to only have four or five inning starts that could be a useful role but it's definitely not a role that Ryu could do because. Having been with the team for his all of his 10 year with the jays this guy takes 24 hours to get ready for his start they got to stretch him out the day before he's watching video while they're stretching his leg above his head he he. He needs a massage he needs to be oiled up and then the next day arrives and he gets ready for his start so you can't send him out there in a clutch situation to say get ready in eight minutes you're going into pitch so Kukuchi is that guy. Ryu is the fourth starter and that's where we stand. I mean I just I. Malar just Malar just got excited because he needs to a massage and to be oiled up to so unbelievable. I was going to say on the show prep me before a broadcast. Replace pitching with broadcast that was like me. There's nothing wrong with any of this so but but from a pitching perspective. We're going to see a change in philosophy of how long the starters in rich are we going to see quicker polls. Yeah we're going to see situations where because they really do have faith in the depth of their bullpen Chad green came in he's a major league experience with the Yankees the big spotlight the big city he's he's used to that role and he's an addition that only came in September and. So they have enough pictures to carry five and so as soon as you see signs of trouble maybe twice through the order and then the third time they go to the bullpen so that you know that's flexible in terms of how many innings that's going to be if you go. Third time through the order but yeah i'm not a big fan of that i'm sure that there are old school managers who are not big fans of that but. These days analytics is what it's all about there's no coursey rule in in coursey stat in baseball but they come close yeah I just if I could just offer a thought on the eye test or the vibe test whatever we want to call it now if a guy's got it that day. You know there's no need to freak out if there's a runner on first space with one out in the bottom of the fifth inning. And Griff loves it when I go back because I'm historically a Chicago Cubs fan and Griff said die hard Joe Madden supporter and and I didn't like how Joe Madden. Managed the seventh game of the 2016 world series now I understand john lester was up in the bullpen a second time you can't get a starter who pitch three two or three days before heated more than twice and expect to be able to use him or at least haven't be effective. So they had to get lester in but Kyle Hendrix was grooving and that game got complicated because they took Kyle Hendrix out like if Kevin gaussman or burritos name the name. If if they're sort of looking solid you got to let them work out of trouble the grass isn't always greener with the next guy so there's analytics and there's all of that that goes into play but there's a feel for each and every game and I really want to see managers lean on that trust that feel in the dugout as well wasn't that the Blake snow story. What was it was saying the twenty twenty world series yeah Kevin cash came and got it just I mean he was on a roll and next thing you know gone and they lose and they lose the game. That was Kevin cash who replaced Joe Madden and that organization that organization is run by analytics because they take chances they see especially pictures especially relief pictures the Tampa Bay rays see pictures who have underachief somewhere else they feel that they can make them mold them into what they need for that specific season so they bring them in they use them in certain roles. And it's amazing Scotty and I have talked about it how that organization leaves the world in in elbow surgeries and shoulder surgeries and injuries because they're fitting human beings into roles that they've created regardless because they can be replaced. Well those guys can be replaced and I mean I pretend that I'm a Joe Madden guy but I think he's a bit of a dick. Well we'll save that one when we have when we have quieter times that we have less stories to deal with we're going to take a break here. I want to ask both Scott and Rich about the guy who opened up this regular season for the Jays on the mound and what our expectations are of Alex Manoa in the years to come. And we're going to talk about the rest of the playoffs in Major League Baseball because there are some fantastic races that could we see Joey Vato in the post season. This is the Macau and podcast back after this. Welcome back to the Macau and podcast Darren in for Bob this week Rich Griffin Scott MacArthur of the world famous infinitely exciting and interesting podcast exit velocity. How was that? Philosophy. Oh philosophy I know it was a velocity. Well it's a play on action. Oh yeah I'm hockey. I'm basically hockey guys. I'm based off. I'm I mean as Darren knows I'm I'm anti analytics. So. I love analytics. I know. I I buy into it and you'd guess what we talked about Tampa and managers doing a controversial decisions that that that's what gets. That's what gets them there. I can't imagine doing something other than that in those crucial situations. It may work in the long. It may lurk in the long run of 162 games, but I'll tell you what go with your gut and use your eyes in the in the big single game decisions. Don't you think Rich? Well I was going to ask Darren if you see players who are aware of certain analytics stats that like puck possession. I'm going to ask Kate around with a puck for an extra eight seconds. So he gets gets more possession time. And does a guy jump off the ice on a three on one. So he's not on the ice when that happens. Do you see that? Well I've seen I've seen a guy do that before. Somebody tell him what the mind. Minus. Somebody tell him plus minus isn't relevant anymore. Yeah. I know. Right. Hey. So I hinted at talking about Alakmanoa before the break. It's obviously been disappointing. The J's have done a very good job of keeping. The story sealed of really what what the issues are. But what's his future, Rich with this organization. Do we know. Well, yeah, Scott and I have talked about that in terms of the organizations. Control of the situation and we're not big fans of them controlling the message. I mean, they use Roger's base media to get their message out. And they've sort of tired and feathered. Alakmanoa without him being represented in this situation. He. We don't know what he was told in terms of when he was sent down on June the 6th when he was brought back. That message has not been conveyed. All we know is that he's being portrayed as the villain in this piece as a guy who's a coward who doesn't want to play. Who's betraying his teammates. So to me, the best thing that could happen. He wasn't going to get called up anyway. So the fact that he's not pitching in Buffalo is not a huge deal. He wasn't going to be called up. He can't be that relief pitcher that that we were talking about that Kikuchi could be. And he wasn't going to jump into the rotation ahead of any of these guys. So. My suggestion to him would be to go to Winterball. And make six or seven or eight starts in the Dominican or Puerto Rico. Go to spring training. Be ready to fight for a job. Because we've seen the success. We've seen his success at West Virginia University. We've seen his success in the Cape Card League. We've seen his success at Buffalo, New Hampshire. And in the major leagues for two seasons. We saw him. Commitzing with the. During the all-star game as he struck out the side. So like this guy can pitch in the major leagues. And he's 25 years old. He could return to that. But he needs to have the support of his team. Have the support of his teammates and not. And fans need to not believe what they hear without hearing it from the horizontal. Yeah, we were talking about the playoff race earlier as being a bit of a roller coaster. The heights that Alec Manoa has achieved in the depths that he has fallen to. I mean, Leviathan, a Canada's wonderland. Doesn't have a climb that steep and a drop. That's significant. And that's a pretty solid roller coaster. I just want to piggyback on on what Griff. Has said about how this information has come out. I found it interesting. And well, I didn't air quote that. For anybody watching on video I should have. I found it interesting that it came out in the middle of the Texas series. When there was some spillage out their diapers with the way that they were performing. And I go back to the summer of 2018. When in private conversations. John Gibbons and Ross Atkins mutually agreed. And concluded that 2018 would be Gibbons final season in the Blue J's dugout. He would not return for the 2019 season as manager. That was privately mutually agreed upon. And then not long after that. Through Roger's own media. Trial balloons about John Gibbons being fired. In the very near future in season started to float. I think it's going to be a great deal like something similar has happened here. Where in the middle of an ugly ugly performance against the Texas Rangers. Suddenly a bright shiny object reflecting the sun right back into all of our eyes was created to distract us from what was going on on the field. And when I talk about why I don't like this front office and I don't hide it and I don't apologize for it. I don't want more people need to be honest about it. This is the stuff that they do. And so I am not defending Alec Manoa. I don't know Alec Manoa's situation. A lot of people don't. I just thought it was hideous what happened last week. And I hope the best for the kid. That's playing out of a free meditative situation. I don't know if it's an analogy on the podcast. I said that. Alec Manoa is the hundred Biden laptop of the blue jays. That's really good. Like in putting it into perspective. But the laptop. But the laptop can't speak back. But why why why then is that has there not been a retort from the agent. I mean, he has there. I mean, can the. Can the jays actually control it? I mean, rich human that you've been there. Can they control the narrative that much? To me, the players association and. Manoa's agent must be involved in this. And so it's like a. If you have a court case pending, you don't want to go out and publicly speak about it. That because. Alec Manoa is now screwed out of service time, which would give him. Super to arbitration status, which is going to snowball into costing him millions of dollars down the road. And at Buffalo, his salary is half of his major league salary. It's in his contract. It's on the internet. So yeah, he's losing $380,000 this year. You know, Crow rated to his time in Buffalo. And service time, which is even more important. So I think that that's something that's pending with the players union and with his agency. So that's why there's nothing come out so far. So you can see them filing agreements. Oh, definitely. Yeah. Okay. Well, I think that's one of the reasons of last week, Scotty. Do you think that was. The blue day is just waiting for an opportunity to do that. Or it was just things are going sideways. We got to do something. Well, it could also just be conversations that happen between team executives and media people that that occur. Relatively regularly. I was just put off by the timing. Because it did happen in the middle of the, the Texas series, where things were, were looking ugly. It could be purely coincidental. I just. My giving this front office, the benefit of the doubt expired long ago on this sort of stuff. And so piecing some of the dominoes together. I saw them fall a certain way. And so it was a red flag for me, just given the history of this group. I'm just keeping track here. You don't like analytics or coincidences, right? I do, I do like analytics. I do like analytics. But I do like a vibe test if a picture is throwing well in the seventh inning. Here's the, actually, here's the thing about Manoa that fascinates me. There. There is legitimate reason. That he was demoted in June. And he had advocated on exit philosophy for not a demotion to Buffalo, but for in fact, what happened, which was I think that I think he needed to step away. And people got all over me because I said he should go down to Florida and play golf. I didn't mean that he should go and play golf all the time and not. Robo pen sessions and sit with people and go to the pitching lab. I just said, there have to be times during days where you get away from it. There was also legitimacy to demoting him based on performance. And then there's a lot of time and time. But there's just been a lot of weirdness and too much quietness between both sides. And you wonder if the relationship is afraid. They got to manage this, though, because I think this kid could bounce back. Maybe not to the top three in the American League, Si, young level that he reached in his second full season last year. First full season, but essentially came up in May of 2021. He won his rookie year, but he could bounce back to be a very good major league pitcher. And so they have an asset here that, you know, even if you want to look at it from a purely business perspective cold hearted. This into human being, this is an asset. You got to manage this because he's a useful piece to your future one way or the other. And other teams would be interested in him given his accomplishments in 21 and 22. His biggest asset might, his biggest asset might be his team control, correct, Rich? Yeah, that's, I mean, I think his biggest asset is his ability to get major league hitters out and to be at a front end of a rotation, which he showed. But I think one of the storylines out there that's not true is that he would, because of his actions, he's betrayed his teammates and he's lost the clubhouse. I think that Darren, you know, NHL PA and like he hasn't lost the clubhouse. He's representing in a way everyone in that clubhouse who's been pushed around bullied sent down. And so if he wasn't going to be a part of this playoff push down the stretch, which clearly he wasn't, but we haven't heard it from his mouth and the blue jays haven't said that. If he wasn't going to be a part of that, how is he betraying his teammates and how is he being a coward in this situation. And I think that's what we have to find out about and I think that he can easily come back into that clubhouse at spring training next year and start fresh. If it's in his mindset and if the blue jays front office is willing to go that route. If you don't have one, if you don't have the other, that's exactly that's a great point. And just just on just on one more business note to take it a step further, Alec Manoa did before this season. What Boba Shet did before 2022 when bashed was still pre arbitration eligible, which is to say there might be a little bit of negotiating wiggle room based on previous season's performance, but you're getting an incremental raise. You're still a six figure, not a seven figure guy and Boba Shet before the 2022 season didn't like the way that the blue jays apportion salary for pre arbitration eligible players. And so he had a salary assigned to him that quite likely was tens of thousands of dollars less, maybe $100,000 less than it would have been had they successfully negotiated. He took a stance on the blue jays structure for paying pre arbitration eligible players, Alec Manoa did the same thing this season. So in terms of losing the clubhouse from a business perspective, young players who've gone through this would also understand from that perspective any chance that he's not in the need and spring training. Only if he's dealt only if he's traded, he's, you know, he's got a career in major league baseball, I don't think that another organization will trade for him and give fair value at this stage of his career until he proves himself again. So my guess is that yes, he's not going to hold out at spring training, just to follow up on what Scotty was talking about you look at the blue jays rotation and he was the opening day starter. Including an injured re you at the time, there were five other starters and the lowest paid blue jays starting picture was $10 million or you say Kikuchi everybody else was up to 21 22 million. So it was between 10 and 22 and the opening day starter who finished third in the Sy Young Balloting a year ago was making $759,000. And that was a cut I was a figure that was renewed because he wouldn't negotiate as bow did not negotiate. So yeah, there's got to be some some mental gymnastics played in the head of Alec Manoa when he looks down the bench and sees five other guys making 10 million or more and he was the best picture of that group last year. And it's a business and it's the way it goes, but he's an immature kid who maybe didn't understand the process and I know how much Scotty loves the word process. Only with collaboration. Only in your meats. Are you suggesting that rich that I mean he would be sitting there and you know comparing bank books. I think it would have to be in the back of his head. I mean he wouldn't be doing it on a daily basis, but when it happened and you got renewed for that amount of money, which was a split contract they they pay him half that to go to Buffalo and then they cavalierly say we're sending you to the minor leagues on June 6th. And then you back and meanwhile every two weeks he's getting a half the paycheck that he was getting as he cooperates and goes and works in the lab and it's difficult. It's difficult for it not to remain in the back of your head while you're going about your business. And with Richard on this not many things get into an athlete's mind more than comparing salaries and looking up at that slumps having trouble during certain stretches. You can fine tune that but the bankbooks don't go away. Well, and Darren to your point, what did Boba Schetz say very early this season when he did the three year contract to pay through his arbitration eligible years. You don't have to think about my salary this year next year or the year after I can focus on baseball. And I have theorized that Vladimir Guerrero Jr. may have some of that in the back of his own head chasing stats chasing home runs right coming out of his shoes swinging at bad pitches because he wants to hit 35 40 45 home runs because he knows that's what we'll get him paid three 50 400 million dollars. It's not a lot of times the player salary it's what everybody else is making that that gets right I mean it's the same thing but they get so focused on what everybody else is is making. And the structure of how you play the game of baseball and your daily activity there's a lot of time for conversation to that's face so that becomes a factor before we go quick thought about we've talked about the American League playoff race quick thought about the nationally playoff race Scotty it looks like the giants are going to be on the outside looking in even though there are two games behind it in the last wild card situation but your Chicago Cubs and the Cincinnati Reds are tied for that last wild card spot and give us your handicap. Well the Cubs just went west and had a really bad week playing in Colorado where they lost two out of three and then getting swept by the diamond backs who on the previous weekend at regly they lost three of four against. We've heard this with the blue jays haven't we yeah so so but they're you know I although I'll say in the Cubs defense they're a year early in my opinion the fact they're doing this right now is exciting in and of itself however it ends up they are back home and will play the pirates this week so. Like a trampoline if there's going to be a bounce back it's it's it's going to happen against a weaker divisional opponent at home. There's a strong part of me too that would be more than happy for the Reds to get in especially for Joey Votto I think that they are a young exciting team they captured a lot of imaginations back in the spring when they got on that hot streak and Votto came off the injured list. The crew is a special young player so it's it's a lot it's it's just going to be. I think specific to the Cubs and Reds the diamond backs are involved we know the giants are to I think it's going to be an exciting final. Don't forget the Marlins don't forget the Marlins are there too yeah yeah so they're looking to do damage to his old team the Cubs to riches point you know major league baseball has done a really good job and you know whether it's called parity or whether. It's called competitive balance for that for that wildcard certainly in the national league when you look at it there's there's you know by my count 16 still thinking they're going to be playing in a miniseries coming the coming next month so it's it is kind of fascinating isn't it rich. Yeah and and to your point don't sleep on the Marlins I think the Marlins have a combination of great young players like the Reds do but I think they have the pitching that could carry the man and if it's the Cubs and the Marlins and the Phillies as wild cards that would be terrific and you know just because a team like the Braves or the Dodgers wins. There's as many games as they do in the regular season it doesn't mean they're going to go all the way to the world series so it'll be an interesting month of October and God bless the Cubs but I don't think they're going to go very far. Yeah revenue that's coming in right now with this with this format compared to the old days that we all came up with it's before we go just one quick question you've talked about the expanded 28 man roster and you know excuse my ignorance because I'm starting to get to be into hockey mode but are we 26th for the playoffs are we still at 28 for the playoffs. So we're 26 for the playoffs I mean the four man roster was just because back in the day right had nowhere to bring those players was minorly player so they brought them to the majors and it was useless and it was unfair and now they're back to 26 for the post season. All right boys this has been a treat and what's the name of the podcast again exit philosophy with Griff and Scotty Mac. It's on youtube.com slash exit philosophy or wherever you get your podcasts always. This is the most promotion we've ever done for another podcast in our life. I love the name. It is good. It makes me it made me think and that's a problem on a Tuesday. A great guy isn't a great name. Love it. And somebody's wallet is within reach. It's amazing. It's an organizer and a friend. Thank you for this boys. All right man thank you. Again MacArthur exit philosophy. I'll be back after this on the McCown podcast. Yes I'm saying it now. We have mentioned their podcast more times that we have mentioned our podcast today. So this is the McCown podcast. Available on YouTube and all those platforms too. It's a great name but I feel like it would have it wasn't one of those brainstorming sessions. I feel like it was said by mistake at some point when you're trying to say exit velocity and you said philosophy and they went oh that's a cool name. And that's how it's stuck. It's not bad. It's not it's it's not bad. I I always wanted to call a. A sports discussion podcast. I always wanted to call it RFA. Because there are so many things. Describing an RFA is always used in sports right. Restricted free agent but I always believed RFA stood for what everybody everything happens in sports ready fire aim so. That would have been an I think that's a great name for a podcast ready fire aim is awesome. And to write that down I'm going to go on iTunes and document that and make you pay for it. By the way I spent more time with Scott MacArthur in the last couple of weeks and I've seen him in the all the time he was doing the morning show in Toronto Scotty and John Gibbons and I we were out in light minister for a hockey bank but for the text book, they said, I'm not really sure about. That's what after the entire year, Bobcats and the EA j. We had a blast over a couple of days. Lots of stories and MacArthur knows his baseball. That's for sure. Oh, he's dialed in and Gibbe can spinner yarn and you've got the hockey side covered. I would like to have been to that. Well maybe I'll maybe I can get you invited next year. Yeah, I don't want to speak. I just want to be able to sit there and listen to the stories. Yeah, I was and and MacArthur did a good job. good banquet and the people in Lloydminster came out in droves. Actually, here's a great story. So at the Lloydminster Community Center, where the event was, there were 600 people for our banquet. And at the other end, in the other hall, Brett Kessel was singing. And about 20 minutes before we started the banquet, a guy came over, tapped me on the shoulders, as Brett wants to see. No, really? Yeah. Yeah, we didn't get a chance to connect, but I'm sure we will during the season, because he'll be at an end in some lots. But so Kessel's down at one end, and then we're down at the other. He had 1,400 people, and we had 600 people at the banquet. So it was a great time. A really good time in life. Nobody works a room like Kessel. Oh, he's good. If he finds out somebody of notoriety is around, he will find them. That dude is a fan. He's a big-oiler fan, as we all know. Thanks for this, Daniel Taukakki tomorrow. Jim Nill, the general manager of the Dallas Stars. What's going to happen in that central division? An interesting central division. And Pete DeBourre and the Stars, and what they have to accomplish after our pretty successful season last year. This is the McCallum Podcast.