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What is going on?
Here's Chris with your host, Julian McKenzie.
Part of the game.
CJ has to admit, I wasn't sure if it was going to get to this point, but we are at this point.
We are recording this podcast.
Moments after we have heard the news of Mike Babcock, the now no longer the Columbus Blue Jackets head coach.
He has resigned the 10 year with the Blue Jackets lasting just under two months.
This comes less than a week after allegation surface about him taking players photos,
putting them up on the big screen TV in his coaching office.
Those allegations were surfaced through the spit and chicklets podcast by Paul Bissinet.
And now we are here.
CJ, how did we get here?
Let's let's talk about how we got to this point where Mike Babcock no longer has a job.
Well, let me start by saying there's a lot of people right now that are surprised that we're here.
I think that clearly to make the kind of hiring the Blue Jackets did in July.
To put their faith in Mike Babcock and for him not even to see the end of the prospects tournament,
not even ever lead the team in a practice or open a training camp for coach a game.
I mean, this is a highly unusual set of circumstances.
And I think it's important for us to focus on the facts.
And you know, admittedly, we do not have all the facts in the circumstance.
I mean, we know that the NHL players association met with players in Columbus.
They shared those findings with the league.
We talked with that late last week.
But you know, it does sound as though there was one player in particular that that brought forward some concerns about his dealings with Mike Babcock.
But ultimately, you know, this is a resignation.
This is something where Mike Babcock and Blue Jackets management had a lot of conversations, you know,
leading up to figure out what they're going to do.
And they decide to go their separate ways, you know, without knowing the extent of the allegations, what happened.
I think that there's a lot of people drawing a lot of conclusions.
You know, one thing that my mind goes to though in this case is that you just got to a point where it was going to be impossible for him to go in that dress here with any credibility for him to lead the team.
I think that, you know, from the organization standpoint, I mean, you don't get to this point where you're negotiating an exit with a head coach before he's even coached a game very lightly, right?
I mean, this is a, this is a sign of something that's gone totally wrong.
And so, you know, it was a strange story.
If you remember, initially, Julian, you know, after the initial allegations on spit chicklets were about an interaction with Boon Jenner, the Jackets captain.
I mean, that was that fire, if you want to call it, was put out within six hours because Boon Jenner came forward and said that, yes, he'd, you know, had a meeting with my fabcock, but he had no issue with with what went on in that meeting.
But clearly, he, you know, that doesn't mean that there weren't other issues with with some of his teammates or at least with one of his teammates.
And ultimately, I think that that everyone looked at this likely might fabcock included, I mean, reading between the lines of the statement he put out on Sunday night as part of this announcement.
You know, you almost get the sense, you know, he doesn't need this at this point that the organization decided they don't need this.
And, you know, there's, there's a lot I think that we can kind of zoom in on because I think there's a lot of moving parts of this story as much as it started with one specific allegation.
You know, it ends up where, you know, the blue jackets quite frankly, we're looking to bring in a veteran head coach to push themselves up the standings.
And so to wind up a couple days before training camp having this happen, I mean, this, this is the disaster on a number of fronts.
Let me read the statement Mike Babcock put out through the team upon reflection.
It has become clear that continuing as head coach of the Columbus Blue jackets was going to be too much of a distraction while I'm disappointed to have not had the opportunity to continue the work we've begun.
I know it's in the best interest of the organization for me to step away at this time.
I wish everyone in the organization well in the upcoming season will be talked about this topic last.
I had brought the fact that okay, there were some players who said it wasn't a big deal.
And in my mind, I had not heard, okay, this player say this wasn't this was uncomfortable.
This player said it wasn't comfortable clearly in the last few days, enough players spoke to the NHL PA and made those feelings heard in this case.
I'm curious if it was younger players. I'm curious what other players in that locker room just said, hey, this isn't a good look.
I don't like this. I don't feel comfortable.
I know we don't have all the facts. I'm just curious.
My mind immediately goes to that point of this entire story.
I wonder who eventually expressed just concerns about all of that.
Well, it does sound like it was a younger player at least one that had some concerns or issues or was uncomfortable with dealing with Mike Babcock as opposed to some of the veterans right.
I mean, we heard Johnny Goodrow addresses to some of our colleagues that were at the NHL media tour in Vegas.
We had the Boon Jenner statement.
It doesn't seem as though this was driven by the sort of more veteran players will call it inside that blue jackets dressing room.
I think it was maybe players that haven't quite arrived to the NHL or in the earlier stages that brought forward some issues here.
And I think it's kind of noteworthy if we go over the timeline of events that the organization went to a prospect tournament in Traverse City, Michigan.
A couple days after the initial reports or allegations surfaced, they brought Mike Babcock with them.
He was seen at the first game there, that the team played.
I think where they started to gain a little bit more speculation or he is, you know, that they played games on Saturday and Sunday in which, you know, the reporters in the building, you know, said that Mike Babcock wasn't among those that were in attendance all of a sudden with this sort of blue jackets crew.
But I mean, they were operating as recently as a start of this weekend as though he was still their head coach, right.
So, you know, it's, I think that ultimately, if you're in the spot, the blue jackets are as an organization, do you even have a question?
If you have one question in your mind about whether, you know, you could send Mike Babcock in as your head coach and still expect him to get the results that, you know, you hired him to get.
And you're at the stage, right? I mean, they have Adam Phantilly. He actually scored a hat trick in one of the prospect games that were played in Traverse City over the weekend.
It's a real traffic. Obviously, a very important player for this organization. They hope for the next 15 years. I mean, they have other prospects because they have been a team in recent years at the bottom of the standings.
You know, this is going to probably be a younger-ish roster, you know, given where they're at in their cycle. And so, you know, I think that all that factors in to some degree, but, you know, it's a hard one for us to, you know, I want to be very careful here because, you know, there's a very sensitive story.
And because of that sensitivity, I can tell you quite frankly, there's not a lot of people saying too much about it. You know, the principles involved here, you know, we have this statement from the Blue Jackets, but are really not.
This isn't, doesn't like a trade where, you know, there's a lot of people maybe giving you a background on the side. I think everyone's very careful on this point.
And, you know, so it's hard to have a full picture into what happened beyond. I think, you know, what did become clear, though, probably on both sides quite honestly, is that this was an untenable situation.
You know, where it got to, I mean, you can't, it was a couple days of open speculation with Mike Babcock of thinking of the things he's done of, you know, reflecting on or discussing some of what's happened in the past.
And, you know, you go back to the original sin here, right? The original sin, I would argue, was hiring him. And, you know, someone might sit here and say, well, that's, you know, it's easy with the benefit of hindsight.
I mean, I think that there was enough people myself included that, that made that observation, you know, back in June, when it first surfaced and he was going to be their head coach.
That there was a lot of risk with that, that call, that decision, you know, at a really important time for this organization, I should add to, I mean, with with them, you know, having bottomed out and trying to to work their way back into, you know, a spot where they'll be a playoff team and what they will eventually will be a championship caliber team.
I mean, this was an important hire and, you know, it feels like it didn't really have much of a chance from the beginning, I think, because of some of Mike Babcock's past. And, you know, what we learned about the blue jackets here, right?
They, they, they didn't really have his back ultimately. I'm not arguing they should have, but clearly there's, you know, before they'd even seen him coach or practice or all the things I mentioned earlier, you know, they'd got to a point where they wanted to move on from him as well.
This was a mutual decision. And so I think that, that, that kind of underlines that this really was a mistake from, from the beginning, and I don't, I don't think it ever had any chance to succeed quite honestly. I just, I think that it was the wrong hire and the wrong thing.
And, you know, it lasted 78 days when all of a sudden done.
This lasted shorter, and I get that I'm making this analogy and people are going to look at as a joke, but it's lasted longer. No, this was shorter than the supposedly Kim Kardashian, Chris Humphrey's marriage or whatever.
And I'm not just bringing this up to make a joke here. This is just a ridiculous situation. If you're going to get to this point where you realize, as you said, CJ, it's not worth having this person's back. What was the point of hiring him in the first place? We have discussed Mike Babcock on this podcast.
And how he might not have done the work to warrant getting a second chance. Why would Columbus think this person was worth going through all of this trouble for and then to have it blow up in their face spectacularly before training camp starts.
The Columbus Blue Jackets should have egg on their face for this. And then you have a whole statement that goes out where, hey, maybe it was fine for Boom Jenner and for Mike Babcock between those two, but clearly there were players in that organization who were not a fan of that particular situation and they felt uncomfortable and it's led to this.
It's embarrassing for this organization. I know we'll talk more about Yarmul Kekalainen and what could be next for him later on in the show. But right now, if you're the Columbus Blue Jackets, if you're John Davidson, if you're everyone of that organization, you should feel embarrassed that the fact that it has come to this situation. Mike Babcock was clearly not worth the risk and it has blown up spectacularly in their face. It's embarrassing for the organization as far as I'm concerned.
All I can really do is point you in the comments from Yarmul Kekalainen, the general manager, when they hired Mike Babcock. I mean, it seemed clear in what he told reporters that day that he was comfortable that Mike had reflected properly on his previous times in the NHL that he had done the work to borrow your phrase that he was ready to lead the team forward.
And yet, here we get, he really hasn't had a chance to lead the team. I mean, obviously, over these ensuing months, there's been an opportunity for him to meet with players. This is where the original allegations come from and start those conversations in that process, but never even got a chance to coach the team.
I mean, it is embarrassing. I don't think there's any other way to put it if you're looking at this from the Blue Jackets side of things.
And they felt he was ready that he deserved the chance that he had earned another contract. And obviously, when you say, why did they get to that point? I mean, we're not in that decision, but I think it's fair to assume that Mike Babcock's resume of winning was a huge driving force for this.
He's someone for better or for worse. I mean, his track record speaks for itself. And he's dragged a lot out of his teams. And I think that they felt, especially after last season, that things went so wrong there in Columbus, it was just such, it was basically a lost year for the organization that they needed someone to push some buttons, but it's a big mistake.
You know, the irony of it all, maybe they end up with the right coach in the end. I mean, Pascal Vincent, who's going to take over as the head coach now, who has been the associate coach in Columbus for a couple years already.
You know, is he's not young for say early 50s, but this is his first chance as an NHL head coach and you know, is seen kind of as as someone who I think has had sort of a hype around him a small hype around him the last couple years that he could be a good NHL head coach and
the changes, these things work out. Maybe they maybe they with the wrong process you know end up where they should have been to begin with.
I just want to read an excerpt from Elliott Friedman's reporting on this, according to multiple sources, one of the most serious concerns was a meeting that occurred away from team facilities that included several minutes of looking through a phone.
the initial thing at hand here was that Mike Babcock wanted to see players photos of their families
through the phone and the photos would get shown up on the screen in his office. And we discussed
on our last episode if that was just just if this was another couch maybe we would dismiss that
because they don't have that same background as Mike Babcock does. But seeing this particular
nugget from Elliott Freeman, you're just like, what like why are you doing this? Why are you
why do you need to have that power over a player whether young or old going through their phone?
I it just doesn't make any sense to me and to reiterate a point I made earlier about how
Mike Babcock doesn't see as if he's really a tone for the past transgressions. But despite
getting that job, I don't know this doesn't tell me that he's learned that much. I don't I don't
it just kind of blew my mind CJ and I just think it's a ridiculous thing.
Right and look at it's possible that that Mike Babcock himself didn't see a problem this right?
It's possible that he didn't think this was something that you know that's that's where you get
into is he you know is there a generational divide here? Is there something that isn't clicking?
I mean clearly privacy is very important and you know at the end of the day you know you're trying
to keep your athletes comfortable. If they say they're not comfortable, I think that then you
have to look at what led them there and you know I would imagine there's a lot of coaches
around the league looking at this and you know I'm not saying that other teams would have
necessarily done this. I mean I do think stuff like this has happened. I certainly know this is
you know that there are other teams that try to include family as a way of team building as
getting to know each other. I'm not saying that it goes down in the same way that it went down
here and I think some of that context which which you know we're missing the specific details of
but but is important. But yeah I mean it's a lot of people are going to are saying
it doesn't surprise them right? I mean I think that at the end of the day you know we didn't we didn't
really hear a lot of I don't we didn't hear in that that three and a half years that the times
of Mike Babcock spoke you know a lot of evidence that that he felt that he needed to change.
You know I think that he addressed it somewhat in that series of articles he did with NHL.com
but you know it didn't didn't go the whole way and you know I'll revert to something I said in
our last episode. I think that he was starting this job with two strikes or two and a half strikes.
I mean there was no margin for error and at the first side of trouble look what what happens.
I mean the the team is moving on from him pretty quickly and you know he's this is I would I
would venture to say this is the last time we'll see him associated in a formal way with an NHL team.
In a formal way with an NHL team does that mean we won't see him at all associated with an NHL team
or will some NHL team try to have him as some kind of senior advisor. Do you see that scenario
pointing out where some team says they want Mike Babcock in some capacity just not as a head coach.
Well not anytime soon you know I don't think that that's something I can't imagine something he
wants any part of the stage and they would want any part of you know I can't I can't see 10
years down the road and you know how everyone might be viewing all this and what might happen and
you know it's hard to it's hard to say 100% never but but certainly I'm confident in thinking
and saying that that he's coached his last NHL game and you know we'll see over time you know how
how things are viewed and and what happens between them and now but you know he if you remember Julie
and he more or less disappeared after you know getting fired Toronto I mean really for someone who
is very front center in the media during his four plus years as the Maple Leaf side coach you know he
he was very quickly onto his other passions pursuits not not in the public eye at all and you know
I would think that you're going to see something similar here for Mike. Let's do a quick you can
bet that and then I want to continue this discussion with regards to Yarmou Kekalainen and maybe
a little bit about Pascal Vincent as well. You can bet that with David Bastel brought you by sports
interaction get in the action and make a play 19 plus please play responsibly a bit of a heavier
episode today but we still have you can bet that remember to hit up sports interaction.com slash
sdpn for all of your gaming needs CJ on the sports interaction website they have some different
prop bets whether they're looking at regular season goalie wins in particular Ilya Samsonov is
there the puckline for him 32 and a half if you're taking the under odds are at 1.84 if you're
taking the over 1.90 how do you think Ilya Samsonov will look this season interesting that they
set the bar there right you know I have no reason to believe that you're going to see a huge fall
off from Samsonov but the question is really for me how many games is he going to play you know
that that will be a key factor and how many wins he ultimately ends up with you know he's not
been someone who's who's really ever handled what we might call a number one or even one a work
load over his career you know even last season there were stretches when when he was out injured
for Toronto the Leafs mix starts between a few different players including Matt Murray and you know
Samsonov ends up logging the most amount of games but only by a small amount and so to win 32 games
I mean you probably got to play something close to 50 maybe 55 you know I would lean towards
the under there from being honest and really not because I'm forecasting a terrible season I just
don't know how many games he's going to play and if you'll play enough to get that that number of
wins I'm curious about that as well I might also be leaning towards the under you can find the
full list of goalies on the sports interaction website don't forget to check it out for all the
best odds before game in game and the best props that is sports interaction dot com slash sdpn I'll
say it one more time for good measure sports interaction dot com slash sdpn cj when we were talking
about this story in the group chat as it was unfolding uh you noticed that uh Yarmul Kekalainen
was able to speak about this through the team statement uh no john davidson the team president
there are a lot of people right now who are wondering about Yarmul's future with the organization
what do you think it should be in light of what has happened
well I mean I think that we're all wondering if that's the next shoot a drop and and you know it's
pretty evident coming through this I mean if Yarmul Kekalainen is is the one making the statement
on behalf of the blue jackets you know in announcing this news you know it sounds to me like he's
still the GM of the team and I don't have any reason or information that suggests that's about to
change but you know certainly I think this through you know he was viewed as a GM that you know
had to get some results out of his team you know he was the one ultimately who was responsible for
hiring like fabcock and you know on this day he's responsible as like fabcock is resigning from
the organization as well and so you know I do think it's fair to wonder what the longer term
ramifications of all this will be um as I said it earlier though I mean if there's there's a world
maybe because sports are unpredictable and you don't know what's going to happen where this all
takes off in a positive direction under pascal vinson and it's not maybe the same discussion point
about the blue jackets and and kekalainen but you know certainly I think that this you know how
these next few weeks go will be important you know this is this is a pretty major change to be
happening I mean I can't underline enough the fact that training camp essentially opens on wednesday
or you know on ice on thursday and on sunday night that the blue jackets are making this kind of
announcement you know they're gonna have a media day on monday and discuss it all you know this
is not the way you want to start a season in in any of the 32 markets in the league and I think
for one where this organization really needs to take a step forward where you're curious how
you know something like atom fantilly performs this year um you know creating the right environment
for those players to learn and to find the way in nhl is important and you know that that didn't
happen with the hiring of my fabcock so you know I do think that there there's going to be questions
and and focus on that and and and rightfully so and I'll tell you this when you when you get a
story this big of this magnitude and and you see those statements you know the quotes themselves
aren't necessarily exciting but I can tell you that there's no there's no coincidences or just
afterthoughts I mean there there was definitely the potential there where you could have had the
president of the team john davidson be the one to to maybe weigh in on that there would have been
thought put behind you know what was said there you know how it how it comes across and the fact
that it was you know at yarmul kekulana getting attributed with that quote and so you know I think
to me that's a signal that he's very closely tied to everything that happened and you know we'll
see if there's anything he can do here in managing this team out of this and so to speak and and
trying to to set things right and have a good training camp and get off to good start in the year
create the right environment and and I would suggest you that if that doesn't happen that
you know a lot of pointed questions will be directed at his way as they should I think when you
make a move like what yarmul did uh it's if there's some desperation involved this is a team that
is trying to make the playoffs uh they've made all these acquisitions over the last little bit I
know they had the injury plagued last season that they had and Brad larson didn't work but say
what you want about Mike Bapcock's track record when you consider everything else that
gone on with him it was a very desperate move and the fact that it blew up in the team's face
I think there's every right for people to wonder or not whether it yarmul should continue to have
his job and initially before we started recording I was leading towards him being fired too and I was
very surprised uh at least when the announcement came out with uh Mike Bapcock resigning that yarmul
was still there as I think if you're making a decision like that you essentially have to stick your
neck out for this person and justify why uh he should be there and and we've talked about it
already in this podcast that he has that yarmul did feel that Mike Bapcock had changed at least in
some way so I was surprised that Yarmul Kekalainen at least as we're recording right now is still
working as the GM of the team this guy has been in his post since February 13th 2013 it's been almost
over 10 years since Yarmul Kekalainen was named General Manager of this organization if he had been
let go you know it wouldn't have been that much of a surprise you look at where the blue jackets are
at you think okay they have Adam Fantilly you get someone new in charge you go into you go into a
completely new direction so I am a bit surprised and I wonder how much of a leash he will get
for this upcoming season I'm very surprised he's still in his job right now it's got to be
shortly so I mean let's remember to though these these are big decisions and they're unfolding in
real time and a lot's moving and you know it's last Tuesday that this initially the allegations
surface seems by Wednesday initially that that everything is fine that you know it's the players
that were initially spoken to there's no issues then you know more comes to light by Friday there's
a meeting at the league office you know the blue jackets themselves are in Trevor City with their
prospects I mean this this this happened very fast and so you know I would say that the one thing
and him you know when his job status is it's a lot to change ahead coach at this stage it's
also a lot to maybe change a general manager in full course I mean there might have to be a little
bit more I think due diligence probably at the ownership level and just is basically evaluating
what exactly happened here where were the errors made I mean it's one thing for us to sit on a
podcast and say well you shouldn't hire them I mean I think I think that first of all I think it's
a fair take but it's also an easy take for those of us on the outside I think on the inside
have to be some some real you know some really looking at at how they got to that point who's
responsible for it how the decisions were made here in the last few days you know again this is
the resignation it wasn't a fire in lots of coaches get fired and let's be clear there was the
ability to fire Mike Babcock I mean that that's a part of the job and you know for whatever reason
that wasn't the case but but I guess my point is is I think it's a little too soon for us to save
any definitive confidence you know what's going to happen at the management level you know this
was already a hot GM's chair too I mean I think that you're right to call it a sort of a desperate
risky move to bring in Mike Babcock I mean it was only to your contractor Babcock remember
so it was it was brought in really for short-term results you know a short-term coach late in his
career you know trying to get a specific reaction from the team and you know I think that was
assigned to that that you know probably that in the management office there isn't this feeling that
they just have forever here to kind of get things on track and so you know I do think that leash
would be incredibly short coming out of you know a pretty turbulent start to their training camp and
you know Columbus is one of the sort of smaller quieter markets in the league I mean what a
what a fascinating next few weeks they're in for with that team that that I don't think any of us
look on paper I mean they certainly got better they they traded for some NHL players and they
they've brought in a you know they've got a few young players I think with legitimate you know
talent and ability to become difference makers over time but you know it's it's it's going to be
a lot to try to bring that group together I think after everything that's happened here and and
I think they have to rebuild some trust right I mean within their own dressing room
um and and maybe they can't do it I mean I don't know how that's going to go so I think yes this is
this is now squarely on on the GM and you know it's a GM that's been there a long time 10 years
as a is an extremely long tenure in what can be a difficult job and you know whether he gets to
11 and 12 and 13 I think is very much an open question I have questions about Yarmou in a spot and
I have a weird feeling we're not this is not the last we talk about the Columbus Blue Jackets
I know we're running short on time the only other thing I'll say is
Pascal Vainsa as a track has a track record proceed to give coaching the minors and
in the Jets organization it seems as if in hockey circles a lot of people would be happy for
me get this job obviously coming through in some unfortunate circumstances with the
Mike Babcock situation but seems like it was a long time coming for him it was and you know I
think there's a real opportunity for him I mean look most people when they get their first NHL job
it's never under good circumstances usually you're taking over a team that's under performed or
something's gone wrong you know you don't get hired when the teams you know perfectly ready to
win and everything's been coming along smoothly at least not not too often now this is at the
extreme end of that I mean until two days ago he was you know going to be an associate coach on
my Babcock staff he was working very close of course with Babcock over the summer as you would
expect and the coaching staff and so you know pretty pretty quick change of view for Vainsa but I
do think it will serve him well that he's been with the organization you know what would obviously
have established relationships with the the more veteran players and you know look if your
hand you almost have to think what do you have to lose I mean I don't think anyone's expecting
them to succeed in the near future especially after you know everything that's gone on here
but you know would not be surprising if this turns out to be a great thing for him and the blue
jackets but you know I might still take some time I mean I don't think we can look at October or
November and put this on the new head coach or you know at any point you got a two-year contract
though from the blue jackets so there's a bit of window or a runway for him to establish himself and
you know when one door closes another one opens and this is a great opportunity for someone who's
waited a long time to take over an NHL team. As CJ will be on Thursday as opposed to today and
that's when we'll have our next episode for CJ I'm Julian so long and peace this concludes
our emergency CJ show episode thanks for tuning in. The Chris Johnson Show powered by sports
interaction all of that. Inside the game twice a week follow Chris on Twitter at reporter Chris
and follow Julian McKenzie at JK McKenzie. The Chris Johnson Show.