Will Kyle Dubas Walk Away From Maple Leafs? | May 16, 2023

Siege, you were at Locker Cleanout Day for the Leafs on Monday. You spent most of your time at the practice facility. As an outsider, all I saw were the tweets and quotes and comments and reactions. You were inside, you asked questions. What do you think was the biggest takeaway from Monday? That was the most surreal Locker Cleanout in my career. Usually these events are, you know, follow a script. Usually they're pretty buttoned down and bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing. One interview after another. There's kind of a feeling, quite honestly, the players want to get it over with. I think the organization wants to get it over with whenever I've been doing them because I'm based in Toronto. It's been after a season that ended without a Stanley Cup. So, you know, I think everyone, it's just sort of an item to tick off the agenda. And on Monday, first of all, the Leafs didn't announce it until Sunday night, that it was Monday at 9 a.m. or about 9 a.m. I believe they said it wasn't a hard time. You know, we got there. The first interview was at 9.47 with Mark Giordano. An hour passed. Then Ronald Riley came out. Pace picked up a little bit. The nice folks were the least bodice pizza. But Kyle Dubas didn't end up speaking to the race ahead and not give you the whole agenda until 3.30 or just before. So we were there seven hours give or take. And then all we spoke to 12 different players, plus head coach Sheldon Keefe and general manager Kyle Dubas, no sign of Brennan Shanahan, at least at a podium taking questions. So from start to finish, it was bizarre. It felt to me like, you know, an organization again, and in years gone by, like I get the fans haven't maybe liked it, but they've come right out two or three days after a playoff loss. It's been Dubas. It's been Shanahan. It's been, we're running it back with this core, you know, we're steadfast. We believe we made progress. You know, it's been resolute. It's been a clear message. The entire thing felt up in the air. Like even as the players were coming along, sometimes with an hour between them, like you just didn't know who you were getting next quite or how it was working. And I think it's reflective of where they're at as an organization. It's not even entirely clear who's in charge right now, right? And of course, the biggest stunner of the day was, you know, Kyle Dubas kind of opening his vein a little bit at the podium. And speaking very rolly and emotionally, talking about how hard this was on his family this year and mentioned, I think it was maybe missed a little bit, but mentioned that he's kind of only that's only come to his attention in the last couple of days. So obviously he's dealing with some new information, you know, whether that's from his wife or another member's family, I'm not sure. But, you know, it's very clear he's not sure he wants to be back or that he can be back as a general manager of the team, which is obviously carries huge implications for anything we might discuss about the players or the decisions still to come. And so that was just, it was a truly kind of surreal day. It speaks to an organization, you know, very much at a crossroads. It speaks even to Kyle Dubas. You're seeing, you know, without knowing the nature of his family situation, you know, what I can tell you is he's married with two young children. I don't think it takes a lot of power of deduction to recognize that he's got a demanding, interfacing job in which he travels a lot, he works late nights, he's under a lot of scrutiny and stress and commentary. And you know, you could imagine how all of those things would take us toll on people close to someone in that role. And so, you know, he almost seemed a bit burnt out to me, honestly. I mean, it was only 15 minutes at the microphone. I didn't talk to one on one or anything, but it just, the way he came across as someone and you just wonder how much he has to give. Now, I also think that can happen. And then you take a few days and the sun comes up and you get some fresh air and you get some sleep and you're right back into it. You know, I'm not trying to presuppose the outcome of what's going to happen, but that was, it was a pretty stunning revelation because a lot of the discussion had been, well, the Leafs retain him. And now it does seem like management or the board of MLSE wants to do that, that they've engaged, it sounds like a lot of the contract details have been worked out, but it's not clear at least at the time we're recording this, if Kyle Dubas himself is ready to sign that contract. And that carries huge implications because it's, you know, it's already the middle of May. And in the next six to seven weeks, the Leafs in no short order have to evaluate their coaching staff and make decisions there. They have to start laying more groundwork on an extension for us and Matthews and potentially William Melander. They have to keep, you know, doing their final preparations for the draft and free agency. They have to consider trading one of their core pieces, I think, at least explore the market on that, at least get some more data on what that might look like, what could they get if they traded someone like Mitch Marner or William Melander, maybe even Austin Matthews, who knows? I mean, one thing Kyle Dubas also said is if he's in charge, nothing is off the table as it pertains to this summer. And so we're here and it just feels kind of surreal, but also I think it is necessary to change comes to the organization. They've been steadfast. They've tried it all kinds of different ways with the same group of players, with the same sort of contract structure. And I think it's fair to say with the way they've lost, the consistency in the way they've lost or come up short in the playoffs, that they need a different direction. And now we just wait to see who's going to be calling the shots in that direction. When you hear Kyle say he's either keeping on as Leafs GM or leaving, what was your instant reaction to hearing that? Well, it's unusual, right? To me, it takes away some of the idea that this was a power play because if he wanted to make a power play, and what I mean by that is try to create more leverage for himself and the negotiations that are going on with MLSE for his next contract, you know, you would want to leave open the possibility like, hey, maybe Pittsburgh does want to talk to me, hey, maybe Calgary would like to see if I'm going to fit there, you know, the name two of the places that you have an opening right now. But really, I think that's him just saying that like this, to me, that makes this all feel more genuine. I have no reason to believe that that was a show, I guess, is what my point is. You know, I think he's at that point where he's not moving his family on short order after they've been through whatever, you know, whatever that, you know, he described as a taxing year for them was. And you know, look, all things being equal, I would have a hard time imagining Kyle Dubas willingly walking away from this job just because it's been clear how much he's poured into it. You know, one thing I thought of in this last day or so, Julian, is you might question his trades, you might not like what he says in interviews, you might hate the way he reacted in the press boxes at various times during the playoffs, like you might think it's weird that he keeps getting to St. Marie Greyhounds on the Leafs roster. Like all those things, like my point is like you might have those questions or thoughts about Kyle Dubas, but the one thing you could never question is that this guy was all in on his job. Like he, anyone who has spent even a remote amount of time behind the scenes of the organization recognizes like he was all in heart, body, mind on trying to do what he thought was best for the organization. Like that's, that's a winner you wouldn't question it. The question I have now is can he keep doing that? Like has that taken such a toll? It's not possible because otherwise there's no, there's no debate that he would want to be here. I mean, this is his team. He's surrounded by his people. He's still young. I still think as much as there might be very real and fair questions about where this organization is headed. Like you're starting, there's a lot there. And if you're making a trade involving one of those players, I mean the potential for that should almost be energizing because, you know, there's, there's an opportunity to, to really do something magical with the team still. And so because he is that invested because, you know, there are starting to see even some of the prospects he's drafted, you know, come up to the fringes of the roster. You know, you see Matthew and I's playing the playoffs and make a bit of an impact there. Joseph Wall. I mean, Kyle's invested so much into this. It would be hard to imagine him being the one to walk away except for the fact. And this is, this was new information that he brought forward Monday that maybe his family situation simply won't allow it. But, you know, really intriguing, interesting crossroads moment. And so let's just because we don't know, I don't want to even want to guess if he's coming back or staying because it's just not fair. And I think it's going to be resolved really quickly. I mean, I've been told even by Tuesday, maybe Wednesday, we're going to have clarity on the situation. But I think that's what I'm thinking about. And I think that's what I'm thinking about. And I think that's what I'm thinking about. And I think that's what I'm thinking about. And I think that's what I'm thinking about. And I think that's what I'm thinking about. And I think that's what I'm thinking about. And I think that's what I'm thinking about. And I think that's what I'm thinking about. And I think that's what I'm thinking about. And I think that's what I'm thinking about. And I think that's what I'm thinking about. And I think that's what I'm thinking about. And I think that's what I'm thinking about. And I think that's what I'm thinking about. And I think that's what I'm thinking is likely going to be the case. We're going to see some changes. Let's talk about Sheldon Keefe because I understand there's difficulty in trying to figure out what could happen with the players. I don't think it's nearly as difficult when it comes to discussing Sheldon Keefe. Am I wrong? Well, it's only difficult if Kyle Dubas remains because we all know about their long past together. And even as part of that media availability on Monday, you know, Kyle mentioned some of the adjustments he saw made even in a losing effort that at least got a reaction from the players. And he wasn't saying by any means that Sheldon Keefe is safe, but he was saying he'd be more down on Keefe if he hadn't seen him and his coaching staff make changes within that series to the Panthers that didn't produce results in terms of wins, but produced better efforts or what he saw as adjustments that made a difference. So if Kyle Dubas is a GM, I do think that it is maybe a murky question. If he's not the GM, it's hard to imagine a fresh voice sticking on with him. Although I'll give you one caveat. You know, there is a circumstance I could see that Brandon Pritum, the assistant GM right now, gets elevated to this role if Kyle Dubas were walked out of the door and, you know, I haven't talked to Brandon about this, but he has been in the trenches with Sheldon Keefe. So maybe he might have some of the same observations as Kyle Dubas that he's done some good here. But if I think if you're bringing an external voice from beyond the organization, we're talking about head coaching change and look, Sheldon Keefe has a ridiculous winning percentage in his time as the Leafs said, coaching the regular season. Like one of the best to start a NHL head coaching career in history, but, you know, the reality is he's had four playoff runs with this team. Three of them resulted in first round losses and the fourth was a five game loss to Florida where the team went out quite neatly. You know, any coach in that situation would be facing questions about their future. And he's also entering the final year of his deal. And so, you know, the question is, if you're keeping him, are you just making him coach out that contract? Are you looking at extending him or maybe are you making a change? You know, I think all things are on the table. I wouldn't feel too comfortable, I suppose, if I was Sheldon Keefe at this point, because all the uncertainty above him and also just, it's the easiest thing to do, as we all know, is to change a coach if you're looking for some kind of different result. I don't actually think he did a terrible job by any stretch. You know, maybe if anything, he changes too much in the big moments, but I mean, he's a really good tactical coach. I think he's improved. The Leafs defensive metrics have all improved during his time with the team. I think he's shown that he can definitely get better results out of the team, but maybe he still, maybe they need another voice to push them to the next level. I mean, I think that's really the question that's facing whoever makes that decision. So Kyle Dubas, very much up in the air, but there's a possibility he stays. Sheldon Keefe is future very much up in the air, but there is some kind of possibility that he stays. The core four is the core four. Some of those guys are on NMCs. We all know about the futures of one Austin Matthews, but considering, you know, the way those players are, the quality of those players, maybe there's an alternate universe where all four of those guys stay and they just change the rest of the, of the core below. No. What if the Leafs do that? You say there's absolutely no possibility. Wow. Okay. There's no way. There's no, so there's no, there's no reality in your mind that says Kyle, Sheldon, and all four of the core four come back. Something is going to change within those three tiers. Yes. I can't, if you're, if you're including GM head coach and the four top paid forwards on the team, I don't see any world that they're all back. Maybe I'm wrong. I mean, I guess there's always a, there's a percentage above zero where that's possible, but I don't think you get to 5%. Like, I think it's, I think it's a very, very small percent chance. I mean, this, this one rattled the man. Like they, they felt that they finally had accomplished something. And of course they did. They beat Tampa out of the playoffs. That's an accomplishment. But then to immediately fall down, oh, three to the Panthers to blow, you know, a lead on home ice in game two, sort of a game you have to have in the way that a series plays out. You know, they played pretty well, actually in game four, which they won game five, which they lost in overtime. I mean, they had a chance to win those games, but they, they put themselves in the position with zero margin for error because of how they started that series. I mean, I think it, it raised all these old questions again, right, about whether they had really improved. So I actually think you're going to see two changes. You know, whether that's GM, whether that's head coach, you know, that represents one, I guess your two could be right there. If there's a new GM, maybe there's a new head coach. But then I also, I think one of the core four will likely be moved. I just think that it's, it's time. You know, it's, it's, it's not just what the least have done. They've been really stubborn. I don't think stubbornness is always bad. Like, they've been facing these questions for years, right? And they kept saying to those questions like, well, we're going to prove you wrong. You know, all we need is more opportunities with this group, but one spring, it's going to click and, and, you know, I, and I don't think that's crazy because that's, it's happened over the years, whether it's the capitals. You know, even the Pittsburgh Penguins, for example, lost a Stanley Cup in 2008 and came back and won it in 2009. I mean, so often you might have questions like, can this team ever do it. And then they do it. The Leafs are past that point, though, like, I think even if they get in those big games, you know, the four players we're talking about might look around each other and just wonder like, Hey, is this going to happen again. Like, they probably have some seeds of doubt. I don't think it's crazy to think, you know, especially Matthews, Marner Neelander, who are now seven playoffs deep, you know, in which they've gone what one and seven in playoff, playoff series. They won one out of the eight they've played together, you know, John Tavares is now in five years of the Leafs so I just think it's time to change that up. I also think they need a shock. The other thing that probably got lost a little bit yesterday. And I don't know what players can say really but there wasn't a whole lot of I've got to be better in that group like it's, it's a comfortable, it's still comfortable right. They've been allowed to believe that this was just going to happen naturally through time that they just kept individually trying to get better that eventually would come together I think that I think the system needs a shock. Quite frankly, and that shock probably isn't a coach leaving because that's that's normal right they've they've had Mike Babcock be fired. I think that shock is seeing one of their teammates that they've been with for a long time relative to how long teammates spent together in sports. You know being teammates with one player for seven years doesn't happen too often with too many organizations. You know, we've seen one of those players moved and bringing in a new personality right. If you're trading someone like Mitch Marner like you can only imagine the return but I think at minimum the return is another star quality player that maybe even right now we'd be surprised to think of that player being moved by his team but that's that's that's kind of what happens here that's that's how you get to Hubert O and Uyghur for Matthew Kachuk. I'm going to talk in last summer but Matthew Kachuk maybe being dealt I don't think Florida was the favorite in kind of the rumor mill and certainly I don't think a lot of people had Hubert O and Uyghur as a return, but that's the kind of thing that can happen here. Obviously if you're the leaf she want to be on the Kachuk side of that trade. You want to be hopefully getting the younger player and the better player. But, you know, however it shakes down I think that would shock the system like seeing that that level of change it would change how they deploy the lineup right depending on if it's a center, defense man I mean I don't know what the deal is going to end up being that to me, that's what they need that it's too comfortable, it's to all this will just figure itself out I think they have to be proactive and find the solution externally rather than counting on it happening on its own internally. Man that core four Austin, John Tavares, William kneelander Mitch marner. Again I get it's difficult because we don't know who's going to call the shots but like if we're talking about making a move to shake up the shake up the system. Who do you move like I think you could I mean john Tavares as an MC but like you could reasonably make some kind of argument for for anyone in that court for to think okay you make that move. And that's that that's that move that could potentially make your team better like like where do you go with that particular group of players. The move, the move needs to be about what you're bringing back not just who you're moving. Right. Like I think probably it's fair to say William me land or is the easiest to move of those players just because he makes the least amount of money he's got one year left on his contract. It's it's an easier trade, but as a result of those factors you're probably not getting back as much for him. And I think there's a real question. I think both the sort of swings of what will be a me land or is will either good and will be the bad can be there's there can be a vast canyon in between those two things at times. But you know due to the fact he makes a little less than seven million next year like there's a lot of value to the least in that. I think it has to be contingent upon what you're getting back and if you can, if you can look at the whole picture on the other side of it. And say okay this is why we're better. And it's going to be a risky trade because you know really I'm pointing you to. You know likely it's going to be one of Mitch Marner Austin Matthews frankly that I'm pointing you to. I'm not saying William, Neil, Neil, Neil and her camp he moved I just don't think you're getting a whole lot of value back in that deal. Unless maybe he's willing to sign an extension I suppose there's there's a way that all that ties together and it's a little different of a trade. You know John Tavares made it clear that he's not willing to move his no move class so I don't think it's worth spending much time on what you could do with him because it just it just seems like he's staying here and that's that's what it is. So, you know, I, what's interesting to me Julian is, it's my understanding I don't think this organization has ever even had those conversations like in a meaningful way with other teams. Like if you wanted Mitch Marner what would you send us or Austin Matthews like I just think that the door is essentially been closed on that for the entire time these guys have been members of the team. And now that door is at least open the door is open the invitation is there. Every general manager has Kyle Dubas's cell phone number he basically said yesterday everything's on the table. So if you're in any of the, what are we down to now 28 markets that aren't well 27 other markets that aren't playing games. Maybe even some of the four that are playing games might want to call Kyle and start laying some groundwork. I mean I think that they're free to call the Leafs and put an offer on the table or start to exchange like give ideas that that's what they do right they don't necessarily table direct offer but to say well if you would do this well then we would do this that's the way they kind of play that game and those phone conversations. You know I think that now the Leafs are going to start to get information they've probably never really gathered about what their players are worth their top players. And you know then I think you go from what, what those were those conversations lead you I think you have to go into with an open mind it can't be we're just trading this guy I think it's like okay, what are what could we get for any of these guys and then make the decision from there. So if you're trying to point me in the direction of Austin Matthews and Mitch Marner and look at the Leafs can do anything this is just us talking. Those two players it's Mitch isn't it. I mean Austin's the greatest leaf of all time. They do want to keep them in order to ensure that they remain competitive not that Marner isn't you know lacking on his merits too but isn't Mitch the guy to trade in this situation am I wrong. I mean it might point there in some ways but I don't know what Austin's next contract's going to look like. You know that's part of this and I think the Leafs already have an understanding of kind of where it needs to be. And you know I don't think he's likely to sign a max level deal in terms of timeline. And I don't blame him for that really this isn't about loyalty to Toronto or anything it's more we're actually finally going to see the salary cap go up in these years right. We're finally going to be released from this flat cap world in the next seven or eight seasons. You know the cap could be 110 million by the end of the next seven seasons. No one has that crystal ball but the point is if you're awesome at use I'm not sure it makes a whole lot of sense to lock in and eat your deal again just from his standpoint. And finally entering the period where the cap's going to go up. So I think it makes the most sense for him and let's remember he has all the leverage here like all of it. The only leverage the Leafs have is they can trade him by July 1st without him saying where he's going to go. Even if they traded him somewhere he's not all that thrilled to play. All he has to do is play next season in that city and then he's in a UFA at 2627 and he's going to have his pick of the league and he's going to get a monster deal then. And so he has a ton of leverage and I think it makes sense for him to sign a mid level deal whether that's three years or four years something in that range and it's going to be at a big it's going to be at a big ticket right I think he's going to be the highest paid player by AAV on that contract. And so the Leafs might look at that and I don't know how they view this and again we don't even know who's viewing this because it might not be Kyle Dubas but they might look at that and say do you know what it's just not worth it for us to not have more certainty than that. And maybe it makes sense to trade him. So I don't think like if if you're just making the decision based on players you probably want to keep the center who scores like a unicorn who's six foot three. Who is on pace to literally rewrite the record book and franchise although Mitch Marner isn't too far behind in most of the category certainly assistant points. It's a hard call it's it's not easy because the cap situation everything factors into it. And the fact that everything is on the table Julian I'll just keep pointing back to that. Everything is on the table if Kyle Dubas is in charge that that includes Austin Matthews. And so Matthews has a more accomplished resume but I don't think he's entirely clear here. And what's wild about this is that deal probably has to be made before July 1st not doesn't not necessarily because you know the players might work with the team and all that. But I think if you're the Leafs and you're maximizing the asset you've probably got to make. And really with Mitch Marner you make the trade before July 1st because he's got two years left on his deal so there's some certainty for the team acquiring them. I think I think any team making a deal for Austin Matthews and giving up whatever the hell that package would look like. They're going to want to talk to Matthews and be sure that he's comfortable that he's willing to sign extension there. Yeah, we don't have much time for all this to get work to work through. Like six weeks and a few years ago. When we're talking about the when we're talking about the level of decision that these represent for the organization. Whatever happens with awesome Matthews to my mind is even more important about whether Kyle Dubas stays or not. Like I think I think if you get in a world where you're trading Austin Matthews mean like that's a trade. I don't even want to open that door too much farther. But it's kind of wild because for so long, maybe not for so long. But like we've mentioned the idea of Austin Matthews playing at another market. But it felt like we did that in just now this is like the most realistic. Like this is the closest I've ever heard any kind of realistic scenario to that happening. Well the door was open to that Monday publicly for the first time. And here's a thing. I should be clear on this because I probably made this point. I still believe awesome Matthews wants to be a leaf like this isn't about him wanting out it's it's more that the organization is at this giant crossroads and they have to decide what they want. Right. You know, Austin Matthews I believe wants to stay wants to sign that extension on or about July 1 like I don't think he wants this dragon on he doesn't need any more speculation. But he also wants to believe the team can win the Stanley Cup I think that's most important to him. And so the least need to put a plan in front of them too. I mean this is. It is it's a little wild we're sitting here on May 16 and so much feels up in the air. Like literally what could be more up in the air than like potentially moving franchise superstars potentially having a GM walk away potentially having to change a head coach. And having to do it all in a six to seven week window at the busiest time on the hockey calendar for transactions I mean it's it's it's hard to put your mind around it all. There's a there's a reality where those three things I mentioned the head coach the GM and that core for there's a change in all three levels I know I kind of said hey maybe there's a reality where everything stays and you said no great sound by but also there's a reality all of that changes. Well the high ridiculous the higher up the chain of command it changes the more likely there's change below right like if you just get a brand new GM who's a fresh set of eyes. Well it's more likely he's changing the head coach and trading one or two of those players like that. I think that like the it's like it's like if you blow up a little higher up the chain. The explosions go downwards in this case so. And then when I gave it I said unfortunately you always say something and get you radioed but I said I said on T I said 10 50 yesterday that I expect one bomb possibly more than one bomb and I still I stand by that I mean I think that there's one major change if not two or more coming. Okay what about the rest of the roster in terms of guys like the unrestricted free agents that are to come what about that aspect for the Leafs. Well summarize it quickly right O'Reilly sounding like a guy who is grateful to have a chance to play close to home and be part of this for a few months, but is probably going back to to unrestricted free agency. Michael Bunting sort of interestingly I think he was a little hurt this year that the least didn't engage in in more meaningful contract negotiations with his agent. You know he is a local guy did establish himself as a full time NHL or in these two years in Toronto. I think it's no secret he'd like to stay but he he was walking out the door yesterday feeling like the Leafs aren't going to extend on that invitation. You know there's there's time for that to change though I mean they have exclusive rights to negotiate with them for the next month plus and maybe, maybe once all those blows over they go back to him and there's a contract to be done. But he certainly sounded like someone who thought he was moving on. You know some of the new guys Luke Shannon and Nolichari actually you know both pickups at the trade deadline were quite clear they'd like to stay if the opportunity was there for them I think it makes a lot of sense with Shannon he was excellent in the playoffs I mean really one of the great individual stories from the Leafs run was was how proficient. He was in meaningful minutes alongside Morgan Riley I think the goals were tended to in the Leafs favor at five on five with Luke Shannon the ice during the playoffs he just was was steady. He ticked some of the intangible boxes. He's obviously there to fight or do you know handle some of that other stuff and the odd time that happens in today's game and you know he's got to see organization. So so odd seem pretty good that he would stay we'll see on a cherry. Some of the other free agents off top my head what Wayne Simmons, you know probably not going to be back. I would say at the stage of his career didn't you know was only used sparingly during this run. You know Alex Kerfoot Justin Hall, you know feels like they're probably moving on even though they've been long time leaves I just see potential turnover in those positions in halls case the Leafs signed also Connor Timmons to an extension so they've got a right hand shot that can maybe feel some of what Hall did and only killing at least a start but you know we'll see there. You know but it all comes back to one thing who's making those calls I mean you and I consider all day and say what we would do but you know until we figure out who the GM is it's hard to go too too far down that rabbit hole. That sounds like a pretty good podcast episode itself doesn't it like you and I just sitting together like maybe in the SDP at studio or something we just try to do that like that sounds like a pretty cool idea I would do that. I would do that off camera. Yeah well of course that's what we all do off camera that's the beauty of a podcast is this is no different than you and I sitting in a bar other than the fact we don't have a beer and you know we're recording it but it's it's we're really just talking about what we know about the league what we think about the league what we think we know about the league and thankfully we got a hundred percenters out there keeping us keeping us in business. Is there something else you want to mention about the Leafs that I didn't ask it. No because let's face it we're recording this on a rare Tuesday we're going to have another show Thursday and I think there's going to be news by then and we'll probably be right back on a Leafs on Thursday so I think this this was a pretty good wrap up of that that wild media day. All right perfect we're going to do a quick you can bet that we'll talk about the Oilers I have a question for you about the final four and the teams and the fact that they're all southern markets and the team. We'll get to ask CJ on the other side if you can bet that. You can bet that with David Bastol brought to you by Sports Interaction getting the action and make a play 19 plus please play responsibly. It's time for you can bet that remember to hit up Sportsinteraction.com slash SDPN for all of your gaming needs sports interaction in terms of their NHL futures they have a bunch of stuff but the most valuable player the team is going to be the first to win the game. They're going to be the first to win the game. They're going to be the first to win the game. They're going to be the first to win the game. They're going to be the first to win the game. They're going to be the first to win the game. They're going to be the first to win the game. They're going to be the first to win the game. They're going to be the first to win the game. They're going to be the first to win the game. They're going to be the first to win the game. They're going to be the first to win the game. They're going to be the first to win the game. They're going to be the first to win the game. They're going to be the first to win the game. They're going to be the first to win the game. They're going to be the first to win the game. They're going to be the first to win the game. They're going to be the first to win the game. They're going to be the first to win the game. They're going to be the first to win the game. They're going to be the first to win the game. They're going to be the first to win the game. They're going to be the first to win the game. They're going to be the first to win the game. They're going to be the first to win the game. They're going to be the first to win the game. They're going to be the first to win the game. They're going to be the first to win the game. Don't forget to check out SportsInteraction.com. For all the best odds before game, in-game, and the best props against SportsInteraction.com. Of course Siege, the Leafs were not the only Canadian team to be eliminated from the playoffs over the last few days. The Emmets and Oilers were at the hands of the Vegas Golden Knights in six games. What are your initial thoughts and takeaways from the Oilers season once again, falling short of expectations? Well, the emotion of Leon Drysidal was hard for me to miss. I know it was a tough end for him personally to that series with Vegas. He took some ownership of that. It was clearly frustrated, upset, about another year gone by, where that team's not playing games as late into the spring as they would like. I think you like that, especially if you're an outsider, seeing that level of care. When we talk about windows opening and closing quickly, I look at the Oilers with Leon Drysidal under contract for two more years and think like, wow, I mean, if you're in upper management there, you have to really be thinking this is the last guaranteed year you have Drysidal and McDavid as the centrepieces of your team. It's not saying he won't go. It's not saying he's not going to sign. Who knows? But by this time next year, we're going to be talking about, will Drysidal sign his extension sort of like Austin Matthews? And if not, will they trade him? Or will they let him play it out? This run for the Oilers core players gets a little smaller. I mean, there's so much riding on next season. I suppose there's a world where you're trading a Drysidal and rebooting it and keeping it going, but there's a lot of uncertainty for Edmonton beyond the next year. And so, you know, disappointing for them to go out the way they did to, you know, I think much like the Leafs on the eastern side of the bracket, they looked at the West and saw a real opportunity to get to the Cup final with some, you know, difficult teams already pushed aside. And instead they're having their locker clean out day this week and they're facing questions about their future. And as I mentioned, their future is not maybe as secure, long termish as some would feel or like. I mean, that's just what happens. The contractual stuff gets into it. And, you know, even if Leon Drysidal is siding another contract in Edmonton at some point, it's obviously going to be at a considerably higher cap hit, which carries complications for the team. And so they've got, they've got one more year in my eyes to kind of go all in at this. And then they're going to have some really big questions, you know, next spring. I wonder what they do with this roster. I think the biggest problem that emerged in that series against Vegas was the fact that they were not as effective at five on five. But like you went through a year where you added players like the TSAC home. Nick Buke's dad comes to mind as well. You move on from Mike Smith last year. You try to see if it works with Jack Campbell, but you realize Stuart Skinner is your number one goal tender. It's not as if the Oilers didn't make any changes. They just see Jay, they just didn't work. Well, their team built around the power play, right? They historically great power play. And the problem with that is and they were they clicked on the power point in the playoffs too, but you just don't tend to get as many for one. And so you're going to have to be able to grind out some two one games that are largely five on five play. And I'm not saying they can't do that, but I think some of the changes they consider or personnel decisions they have should be around better insulating them to be able to handle that. You'll be very curious to see what happens with Jack Campbell. I would think they'll at least explore if there's some kind of trade that makes sense. They'll have to look as a buyout makes sense. You know, it's too soon to say what they'll decide, but, but, you know, when we talk about everything being on the table, I think everything has to be on the table with Jack Campbell, just because that. That first year of a five year deal didn't work out very well and that cap space is important. The Oilers. Every year of dancing that the dance. The limbo just under the cap ceiling and I don't expect that to be any different. Come 23 24 season for them. So, you know, I think there's a decision or at least an exploration needs to be had there. And they got to keep finding good players. I mean, that's, that's the challenge. You have these stars. And, you know, I think that you like a lot of what you see from McDavid and dry subtle like I don't place this totally at their feet. We want to dry side of 13 goals and two rounds. I realize he didn't score any at the very end of the series and that's part of where the self criticism from him comes from but. You know, this, this, this wasn't necessarily them being let down by the stars. They just, you know, they just weren't good enough. When it came time to figure out who was good enough. Well, the Vegas gold Knights played really well, as you mentioned, even strength and won the series and got through and they did it with Aidan Hill, who was it wasn't. You know, I don't know what was either second or third goalie depending on where they were at depth chart wise with injuries and such. So full credit to the Vegas. They're one of the teams along with Florida that I twice have said they were going to lose in round one and round two and they didn't. So maybe when it comes time to make some round three picks I'm going to have to revise my thoughts on those two teams. But, you know, the Oilers, they just weren't good enough of five on five and I think they might have to ask a more profound question because they're going to have a great power play again I mean you roll out the guys they roll out. I don't see why that'll change but but they maybe have to try to find ways to ensure they can win games, or there's no power plays or you only get one or something like that. You know that's the problem between regular season and playoff hockey there's a difference there. And I know people want to debate it and all that but you just don't see as many penalties called. You know prison rules take effect at times during the playoffs and that doesn't happen too often during the regular season. Make the regular season matter more. We're not going to debate this fine. Okay. That's okay. That's fine. I don't know. I'm not. I don't have a strong enough feeling like I've seen the debate happen a lot online and I'm not saying those like I just don't know if we would like watching a playoff game with seven power plays aside either. We might complain about that too so I don't know the exact answer. It does feel like what we have now is maybe that there's there's a way out of it's so hard like you watch. You watch a game like I don't know if you saw the Toronto Florida game five you know it gets to the third period overtime and you know there's not a penalty being called until TJ Brody flips a puck over the glass in the neutral zone like totally by accident which has really didn't break up a scoring chance because you know mistaken play but that's a black and white call in the rulebook and he's Florida gets a power play. You know that's that's kind of. It starts to seem absurd but then at the same time I know if I was at a game that had huge stakes and there was like 14 power plays however they're divided up. It might feel like that the flows disrupted and the referees are getting in the way so it. I can understand I'm a little more sympathetic to like I don't know where the answer is there. But it's true though that you can't win with just high skilled players in the playoffs like I just think that's been proven time and time again. It doesn't mean you can't win with high skilled players but you need you need to have a little different element or you need those guys to maybe play in different ways for success in the playoffs. And I think the other guys are doing that though like they push through there. They are being productive and they're scoring some nice goals I mean it. But as a team the Oilers got to try to make improvements to be better at five on five to be willing to navigate whatever comes next at them in next year's playoffs. Yeah, this whatever gets them to that balance also if you were trying to mention other penalty calls with regards to the Oilers golden night series the Patrangelo slash is a good idea. Let me see his echo took a gash has a gas on his face off a stick like. There's some source material in that series which I don't want it to go. How about the refs are in should have been more than one game like that. I've yeah, but I mean I don't know if I would have changed anything in terms of the outcome but. I don't like that one. Anything else you want to mention about Oilers before we move on. Not yet I mean they haven't had their locker clean out day we'll see where the dust settles with Ken Holland and everyone there but. You know I just disappointing for them I mean I. We really felt like we might get. You know a Canadian team and a cup final and here we are in round three and there's nothing of the sort. Let's talk about the final four teams in the NHL. The Vegas Golden Knights will match up against the Dallas Stars. The Carolina Hurricanes will match up against the Florida Panthers. What do you think of this final four? What do you think of the fact these particular four teams have made it this far. I think it's awesome man I mean to me it's a sign of. Where things have gone like I'll just give you the my perspective on being in sunrise for two of the games in the second round like. Those were by far. And I've been down to that building a lot of times now called FL a live arena but it's had numerous names over the years. And that was those are by far the best games I've ever been there for atmosphere for energy. You know I covered the Panthers on the off days and stuff like there's a lot of local media coverage. Certainly far more than you'd see during the regular season. You know I've always thought Carolina is a great building for games Vegas is a place that I've. Repeatedly put on my top you know three or five list of places you should go watch a game if you want to see your team on the road. Dallas is an established market for the NHL like like even though we could focus on the weather and focus on. How many true NHL players have come from these places or what have you I think that this is a sign of progress for the league because. Florida would probably be what I would list the weakest market of those four. But in the playoffs like that you're seeing the respect or I've seen the response firsthand that that they're creating excitement in their marketplace no doubt converting some new fans. You know I don't know how this isn't actually good big picture I'm not worried about TV ratings like I. I've never understood that argument. If you're going to have teams in markets that you deem not to be good TV markets but you have to live with the fact that some of those teams are trying to win a Stanley Cup too like like what are we what are we doing here. Does everything have to be Chicago versus LA or whatever New York versus pick big market. I don't I don't care about TV ratings. I don't work for any of the rights holders anymore so like I just that doesn't make my reaction to the final four isn't based on on that. I think this will be fun hockey. We're going to get probably you know it's not an unlikely cup champion like if Carolina wins a Stanley Cup you're going to look back and be like well yeah they've been in the second round multiple times they went to a conference final a few years ago like they've been knocking at the door with a great team and they're going to be a great team for an organization you know I think Dallas clearly like what they did in one draft getting Hayskin and Jason Robertson and Jake Ottinger like a true difference maker franchise shifter at all three positions in one entry draft like that gave whole new life to what had already been a good team and they have some of the older players from that team still around. I think that winning a cup is in a shock I think Florida winning a present trophy last year big picture it's not a shock it's more a shock how the regular season played out that they've found themselves here. And obviously Vegas is knocked at the door forever so like you're one of organization that's really been building the right way is going to win the Stanley Cup here. You know I'm I'm fascinated to see it'll be I you know my cup picks are all dead so I'm starting to freshen this round and I don't know who's going to win honestly. The worst thing you can do is spend time around one of the teams in the playoffs that's having success like I just did with Florida because it makes me go like oh wow like they feel like they have something here like this this is, they've got the mojo but the truth is all four teams feeling like they have something here that have had success that have come through hard moments like a game seven. And they're only halfway there that's the other thing like I am exhausted Julian not to make this about me and exhausted from a month of you know this is the first time we've recorded the pod where I'm at home in a month. Because every single day I've been out and about airports, ranks, wherever it may be. And but the guys and I'm sorry imagining how the players are feeling and they're only halfway to the cup at this point like who has the who's got the juice left who's got the gas to make go another month I mean that's that's the question. Game seven of the Cup final could be on June 19. It's May. So one team or two teams are potentially going to have to play for another 34 days from today. The grind is real my friend the grind is real. They have to play it to go through all that physical stuff they have to skate hard try to get goals all of that stuff throw their face in front of pucks face washes fight all that stuff contact with pucks and sticks I don't know if there's been a lot of blood on the ice in these first two rounds. We've gotten some ass contact to we've gotten we've gotten at least one or two ass goals. Yes, there is there is an ass goal in the Leafs Panther series. Yes there was. Yes there was. I'm trying to remember who went on for Hagey I think was it a good shot. I think it was a good shot. It might have been Hagey's ass and then. Yeah, amen. Look, whether it go as long as it goes in doesn't matter man. We all about that ass. I got it. I got to tell you that there's a lot of Radco good us love in the press box during that least Panther series like he he was like he was a character of mass fascination from the visiting media covering that series just because he was in the middle of everything and then ultimately he's in the middle of the overtime winning goal that ends the series from Nick Cousins. So so so what did you think of the fact that as that goes in he's he's like doing that yelling face in front of Joseph all that photo that's going around everywhere. I got no problem with that. I mean I don't know problem with that either. That's emotion. Like I don't think he's trying to show up Joseph Wall in that moment. I think literally the Panthers just beat the Leafs in five. They just did the impossible or the unexpected anyway. I didn't I didn't look at everyone's picks but I don't think there were a lot of Panther picks even after they beat up Boston. So he gets a right to celebrate like that you know Joseph Wall was asked about it. He said he didn't remember it. But if you get if you it's sort of like way back in the day I had no problem with the Jose Batista bad flip not just because I'm a Blue Jays fan, but because I think if you if you do the thing you can celebrate the thing. And so the Panthers did the thing and Radco let it loose. We could do a whole podcast not to mention all these different other podcast that he's doing it entire what like leave it for the summer where we just spent like 20 minutes talking about the bat for supposedly about these days because it's more than just Oh hey you hit like a go ahead like was a three run shot like I've been to the upper deck like that entire inning was a masterpiece theater. It took an hour. There's so many different elements. You have ever read to do the thing. That's one of the greatest. I'm not kidding one of the greatest sporty events I've ever been at, including all the Olympics and Cup finals and everything. It was magic the way that all unfolded. It was crazy the release. Yeah, awesome. The other thing I'll say by the way. So I was in the hallway the night after Nick Cousin scores that goal and he's waiting to go into the media room. I was just sort of like hanging around seeing who I would see see if any familiar faces a chat with. And Nick clearly took like a FaceTime call from one of his buddies he's from he's from Belleville Ontario, which is not so far from Toronto. And he's like, what are you doing wearing that Jersey get that off get on our bandwagon. So like the guy scores that the I don't know that I wish I had a chance to ask him but who it was and what the circumstances are but based on what the one sided version of the call I could hear it sounded certainly like one of his buddies called him in a leaf Jersey after he scored the overtime winner. And he was he was urging people to get on the cat's bandwagon there. Yeah, I could imagine that also a suit Greyhound alum if I'm not mistaken. I saw that on Twitter. I actually don't know for sure. I didn't look that up but I'm sure I'm not sure. I'm sure people are tweeting that they're right. I just I actually am not familiar with his background. It's not like it's not like you haven't, you know, emptied the tank on other things. We'll let that one slide. It's all good to do. I just do Greyhounds in a league. That's what I've learned. There are a lot. Yeah. It's like more than you would expect. It just feels like every time someone gets acquired by the leaf someone's like, Oh, yeah, he was part of the 2012 Greyhounds team that did this. Kyle Dubas can't acquire them all. Anyway, how about the Peterborough? By the way, what about them? That was my OHL team growing up. Well, they're up to one right now in the OHL final against London. They shout out to them. They're heartbreak kids, man. They won Game 6 and overtime facing elimination against North Bay and then one Game 7. Now they're up against the mighty London Knights. They, you know, put a little d'Naro under the table to get the best player Knights and the plucky Peterborough kids are in the series. I love it. That's your very early stick tap of the week. Yeah. I mean, we'll see. They might be tied to two by the time we're doing stick taps. So I want to get, I want to get the love in while there's there's reason to be optimistic. I only had for a very brief time the Montreal juniors as a junior team. The only NHL player I could think of who was on that team was Jake. So I don't have like a. Oh, I don't have like a Q team that like I would support. Or I guess Le Compard would be the closest one, but like, I don't have a Q team. Right. Well, I was going to games, right? We couldn't really afford to get tickets or tickets were hard to come by for NHL games. I think I went to three games as a kid, like over my whole childhood despite being hockey mad NHL games. But, you know, we could go more to the junior games. My dad actually ended up being a season ticket over with his buddies for 10 or 15 years. And, you know, even when I got to university age, I'd go up there. I saw both Eric and Jordan Stahl be stars for the Pete's. Actually, I remember going to a Pete's game in the playoffs against Kingston and Sam Bennett was an absolute menace. Like he was literally, he looked like Wayne Gretzky against a bunch of beer leaguers just in that particular game. Like he was so much better than anyone on the ice. And I think that might have been his draft year or maybe the year after his draft year anyway he's, he's, he's making noise and he's playoffs too. But junior hockey is great if you can can get out to it. I, you know, I don't get a chance to see much of it live these days but I always follow along and see who's who's trending up and down. Are you ready to answer questions for ask CJ? Yes, let's go. Let's start with that Bay guy 92. Well, we kind of had this discussion a little bit but why not just, you know, give them, we'll temper this one. Is it realistic that one of Matthew's or Marner could be traded prior to July 1. Realistic. Yes. Don't know who. Don't know how. Don't know what. But it's, I think it's realistic when the GM says what Kyle Dubas said on Mondays avail. From contrail off of discord. Which team do you think will overreact the most this off season. Ooh. They mentioned all these different examples will Toronto trade one of the core four. Well, the Rangers trade one of the members of the kid line. Well, Chicago tried to surround but Dar with talent too early and ruined the rebuild. Who does the biggest stupid. Well, I don't, I don't think that trading a member of the core four or even maybe trading a member of the kid line is actually overreaction. I mean, that's, that's like what good teams are they make those kind of hard decisions in an effort to be great. Chicago's going to be interesting like this isn't the spirit of the question. I don't know who's going to react most like I'll just be straight up honest but one thing someone pointed out to me that works for another HL team is that it's great of course Chicago wins the draft or they get Connor Biddard. But they don't have a whole lot of other prospects around him. And when we talk about contention windows like how long is it going to take them to amass enough to be to become good slash great before they're paying him like 14 million a year. Assuming he becomes a player we think he's going to become like it's, it's, it's going to be a challenging window for them and I think that there might have to consider dealing some of their picks or what they have now for players that are a little bit younger and more ready to compete right like Crosby enters the penguins with Mark Andre Flori already there. Chris Latang gets there. He draft of getting Malcolm the next year I mean like the core of that team arrived at the same moment. And you know similar patterns played out whether it's it's Washington with some of their guys. I think it's going to be a challenging situation for Chicago because I think you almost have to try to get good quickly. But you also need more cross control talent so, you know, winning the lottery is great and then the reality of winning the lottery will set in pretty quickly. Sam Tron. Hey guys I have heard Gary Betman say that NHL refs are the best in the world. But my question is how does he know do. Are there metrics performance indicators that can be used to compare refereeing quality year over year amongst referees between different leagues a mentor always told me if something can't be measured. I think if you watch the double IHF World Hockey Championships going on now and watch it closely you're probably not going to say hey we should be bringing those refs over to be NHL referees and I say that with respect but there's not clearly better officials in these other leagues. The NHL has done in recent years a lot in terms of having training camps for referees. They've tried to recruit a lot of former players and have successfully done so both to be linesman and referees, you know they've trying to get more athletic, younger people involved in the game that understand the game and you know I think it's plausible to say that there aren't better referees in the world but at the same time I don't know that there's anything like how do you I don't know how you would begin to measure that. But the I test will tell you it's there's not someone working in the Austrian hockey league as a referee that is better than what you're getting from the best NHL officials I'm pretty confident of that. This next one from Jay Money, what a playoff it has been, what has been your favorite moment of the playoffs so far. I mean the problem is is I would live the playoffs primarily through one team right I covered the Leafs for two rounds. So I would probably have to say the night they won their first series in 19 years in Tampa was probably my favorite playoff moment just because it was really interesting to see that happen right now in the context of the entire playoffs I don't know what it means because then they lost in five games, but for me I haven't been able to watch the playoffs like a fan. I've missed a lot of games because I'm at games themselves and working late into the night. And so my personal favorite of just the 11 games I went to was just probably seeing the Leafs win a game and over time seeing them celebrate just seeing the release of emotion that came with that. I get in it won't be found anywhere in the history books because it didn't didn't amount too much, but I've also got to another 34 days now to watch what's left of the playoffs and I'll probably see something that you know resonates a little deeper with me as that goes along. My personal pick is a card over Hakey scoring the series clincher in game seven over the Bruins that I've been able to watch the playoffs is just a general hockey fan. And I think that is like number one for me with all due respect to the Leafs I think that's that's obviously a really big moment that's really cool to see that happen, but like just the fact that the Florida Panthers were the giant killers that they that no one expected them to be. I still think that's the coolest story of the playoffs right and tied that game seven with a minute of change to go on Montour so yeah I mean like that's that's I say there's been more impactful moments but he's asking my favorite moment I can only go by the 11 games I went to quite honestly because that's more that sits better with me like it feels more real than anything I watched on TV and so game six and tap that was been my best moment so far. Nico D. We have a fun one for you. So, I think that's why they're playing Michael Jordan one on one first three points you need one basket. Pavel dad took gets three breakaways on you and net you need to stop one or George St. Pierre has three attempts at a takedown on you you need to stop you need to stop one. What matchup are you taking why would you fail how would you have a chance to win this one actually be a bit too elaborate but I'm taking dad I've got no chance against Michael Jordan I'm five foot seven. I don't have any and I don't have any discernible basketball skill and I'm not getting anywhere near a fight with George St. Pierre. So by process of elimination I get to dad's so the way I win is I throw a very uncommon goal 10ing style Adam I maybe aggressively go for a poke check or do something he's not expecting come right out at him. I'm not saying I would succeed but I would just I would look like nothing he's ever seen I would cover as much of the net as I can and I would just hope that at least if he embarrassed me I wouldn't I wouldn't be in any physical pain which I might be in the other two circumstances. Physical pain or just embarrassment. Well I mean I've been embarrassed. I'll be embarrassed again embarrassed embarrassment is overrated I mean come on no one should get that embarrassed. What did you learn in your life that it didn't really matter to be all that embarrassed. I'm not sure there's I mean honestly that's a product of getting older. Like I think that that I think it's a universal human experience that you know when you go from 20 to 30 and 30 to 40 like you're you're you're give a shit meter about what other people thinks just goes down because you recognize you can't control so much you can only give your best effort and be your best you and you can't control what anyone's going to say and there's no sense getting wrapped up in it. Like quite honestly people could say like you know I get mean things said to me online I'm sure we all do anyone who's slightly public facing like they doesn't even impact my day at this point I just I could care less really I just I try to be fair to everyone that I cover and do my job honestly and up front and let the chips fall where they may so I think I'm not sure that there's any substitute because I if I told you at 20 that I was like that there's just not it's not reality like I was like anyone I think I was always worried I didn't know my place in the world yet right well I've got a better understanding of my place in the world now and so I you know I do my best and live with whatever happens beyond that. Beautiful dog. Wow, this is the truth. And for any think our young listeners as much as you cannot get involved in that stuff I'm telling you your your mental space will be better but as I said I don't have a magical lixir I just think sometimes you gotta you gotta grow through your experiences you gotta go through hard times you gotta go through good times and then eventually you start to make peace with the fact that life is short and you gotta you gotta make the most of it and just not get carried away or caught up in the bullshit. That's honestly what I'd even tell the players like it's the one observation I have about around being around a team like the least it just seems like they still care so much about all the nonsense and bullshit and like the truth is all that matters is enjoying their moment and if they win games people are gonna say nice things and if they lose in bad fashion everyone's gonna freak out and you know I think that you should just have fun with pressure and give it your best and live with the results like what like I wouldn't spend any time micromanaging caring about all this stuff beyond your control the Panthers that that's what's been the cool thing about spending the last two weeks from the Panthers like they look like they're just having fun and I get that it's a little easier maybe the expectations and pressure are different but I think that they're just like letting the chips fall where they may and if their season ends with a loss and they don't move on at some point or they lose in the cup final I think they're probably gonna go have a bunch of drinks and just be like what a run that was fun great to be us I think that's the best way to approach your life I think that's the best way for us to end this Monday edition of the CJ show with some really worthwhile and fulfilling life advice well done I don't know if anyone got this far maybe a few hundred percenters are still listening an hour in but there's the bonus sage words from CJ at the end We'll be back on Thursday with a brand new episode subscribe to the podcast whether on Spotify Apple or subscribe to the YouTube page for all the other great STPN content you can watch and enjoy including the Steve Dango podcast which has episodes throughout the week as well Siege will do this again later this week my man I heard I might be seeing you in person We'll see CJ I'm doing things so long and waiting to see The Chris Johnson show Powered by sports interaction One of that Inside the game twice a week Follow Chris on Twitter at reporter Chris and follow Julian McKenzie at JK McKenzie The Chris Johnston Show. Well, I'm going to go.