Chidiebere Ibe and Shamel Washington | Two of the Leaders behind Illustrate Change

Are you struggling to keep up with the increasing demand to create content? And feel like your content creation process is all over the place, well, you're not alone. One of the hot topics on this show is content strategy. How to reach your audience. What content is relevant and whether to do this inside your company or to hire outsiders to help you? Well, Deloitte Digital can help with all of this. They understand the challenges marketers face when it comes to scaling content. And they offer an efficient and sustainable way to create, deliver and analyze content at scale, all without hiring additional resources. With Deloitte Digital's integrated solutions, you can streamline your workflows and create relevant and targeted communications to help improve your business outcomes. Visit DeloitteDigital.com to learn how their content supply chain solutions can help you scale your content creation and could improve your customer experience. A recurring theme has started to pop up on the CMO podcast, Sustainability. One of our recent guests even incorporated sustainability into his job title. He might not be alone. According to Deloitte's 2023 Global Marketing Trends report, Sustainability continues to be a focus for brands. While some organizations may want to pull back on sustainability initiatives in times of economic uncertainty, consumers continue to stress that a brand's commitment to sustainability is critical to their preferences. However, only 25% of brands that Deloitte surveyed say their focus for 2023 is on urging consumers to take action. Instead, organizations are recognizing that focusing on their own sustainability efforts can have an even more positive impact on the planet and on their business. For more inspiration on how to make this year be your organization's most impactful year yet, check out Deloitte's 2023 Global Marketing Trends report at Deloitte.com slash Global Marketing Trends. I would like you to both talk about what are the conditions that help you be creative. What I realize is that if the brief leaves one person in tears, we're going to kick ass when it's a concept in creation and I think lately, with this project and other projects we've been working on, with that brief, we emotionally connect to it and we want to make sure that we give this work the proper respect and care that it deserves until that story the right way. Hi, I'm Jim Stangle and I help major brands find their purpose and activate it and the profits follow. For seven years, I was the Global Marketing Officer for Proctor and Gamble where I oversaw the marketing of hundreds of brands. You may not know it, but the CMOs, the chief marketing officers of all of your favorite brands, are trying to connect you with your favorite products and services through purpose and on this show, I delve into how they do it. Creative. It's what all individuals, teams and companies strive to be, but in all aspects of business there are certain rules to follow or reputations to uphold. So how do you maximize creativity within these boundaries? Our miniseries, creative collisions, explores just that. We'll dive into how companies, brands and leaders handle those push-pull moments, why it's so important to have those conversations and what lessons were learned along the way. My guests today on this special Creative Collisions episode are Chidi Bear E.B. and Shamele Washington, two leaders of an initiative called Illustrate Change. Chidi Bear E.B. or Chidi is a Nigerian medical illustrator and a medical student, he hopes one day to be a doctor in women's health. Chidi is famous for creating the black fetus medical illustration, which went crazy viral around the world. It sparked a groundswell about representation in medical imagery, less than 5% of medical imagery today shows dark skin. Joining Chidi is Shamele Washington or Mel, an associate creative director at Deloitte Digital, focusing on life sciences and health care. Mel is a lead creative director on the Illustrate Change initiative, which we will discuss on this show. Get ready for an emotional discussion, get ready for one of my best shows I've ever recorded. Get ready to listen to these two amazing creative human beings. This is recorded at the Can Lion International Festival of Creativity. Here we go. Welcome Chidi and Mel to this very special episode of the CMO podcast, the most special I think we have done. So I want you to start with a very basic question. How did you two guys meet? Mel wants to start with that? Chidi, he released some time last year. He released this image of this black fetus and I sort of linked in, it had been passed around like my agency Deloitte Digital and you know, anybody's like, we got to do something with this. This guy's amazing. This image is going super viral. The guy, he's crushing it. Everybody loves it. He's the feedback. Because again, it was amazing. So he's like, can we just reach out with this guy? First of all, just have it. Just say hi to him. First of all, we'll just say hi. In other words, how can we help you amplify your message, you know, using, you know, our platform and create something that's not just one image, but something that's something that's, you know, a lot of every images that can kind of live on and almost change the idea on, you know, this black representation in a medical field. Wow. So you're sitting in what city when you see that? This is right after I moved to Atlanta. So you're in Atlanta. I'm in Atlanta. You see it online. Lincoln. You reach out and you're sitting where? Niger. Niger. So how'd you respond to that? Yeah. So I have my management team and we responded with so much, you know, interest because it came from Deloitte, like Deloitte. Deloitte? Deloitte? This is a big stuff, you know, and we're excited and we just responded. I said, I'm working on it. And here you are in Cannes doing a podcast and you're in the main stage yesterday, got a great reception. Exactly. That's so fantastic. So listen, what I want to do is you're both incredible people. So I want you to introduce yourself to our audience through a little bit of a lightning round. Okay. And the first question is hometown and where you live now, Mel. New York through and through, grew up in Harlem, spent my last 10 years in the Bronx and I moved to Georgia, part of spring's Georgia year, though, and we could do an episode on that, but we won't. Jenny, how about yourself? So hometown is Nigeria. I've basically been in Nigeria in my life in quite a few states and but I moved to Zambia this year for medical school. So I'm currently living in Zambia right now. First year medical school. Second year medical school. Second year. Okay. How's it going? Very good. We have an example. It's two weeks time. Oh. Oh. Are you studying, are you studying, done here in Cannes? It's difficult to study. Much of my homework, so I just have to revise and, you know, yeah, make it work. Well, good luck to you on the exams. Now I want you to just speak briefly about who or what inspired your current career direction. Right. You're in Deloitte, digital, in design, obviously you're in the medical field. So pretty much I was actually, you know, art school, a student throughout my education history. So, you know, I'm honestly dude, you can draw really well. This is to make that your thing, get, get rid of that and let's, you know, let's see where it takes you. So, from there, what's your art design, high school, end up becoming a graffiti artist. So got in trouble a couple of times because of that. Good trouble. Good trouble. My mom's like, you know, if you go through this art day, let's find, let's try to find it, you know, a way to do it the right way. So, from there, what's your art school, my goal at first was to work for Vibe Magazine. Yeah. Dude, I was, you know, I can remember the first nice spread I saw at the design. And I'm like, I want to work for those guys. Got there, hated it. I interned at Vibe. I ended up coming to coffee guy, I was like, okay, just sucks. Yeah. And then from there, you know, just kind of just took on little, you know, art design jobs and took a couple of buddies from college, you know, we just kind of rented a warehouse space in Brooklyn, gutted it out and just made that like our little Macyc studio. And then, you know, we just started taking on clients, you know, we've, you know, grabbed clients from like Sean John, Sarac. I don't even know how we, they even like noticed us with this warehouse. But, you know, we'd be, maybe for like two years, we just kind of started doing that thing with them that is spread to the Department of Education. And then we started doing like a couple of museums in New York City, just designing stuff. 2008, you know, the economy, you know, that, that issue I lost, you know, clients like, dude, we got no money. We don't want to pay you. Need a job. Baby was on the way. My buddy in mind, you know, had like a gig in the production office at an agency. He got me in there. And that pretty much began the run of my advertising career. It's a beautiful story. Thank you. Give a smart mom. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, Southern women. She's super blunt and just told me what it was. Fantastic. Jenny, how about yourself? So for me, passion for medicine started when I was quite very younger. But when I lost my mom to Verand Cancer and I was on the 25th December. So I said, I was going to be a doctor in the matter. So that, that woman's was that defining moment for me. But regarding illustrations, that was doing the log now where I didn't have money. I lost my job basically. So I reached out to this group on Facebook, a fan, then I was a graphic designer. So I said, I wanted to work for them and they should pay me. So I had a response that there was no money to pay. So because I loved medicine, I quickly obliged to work for them. So while working, I met my mentor, Dr. Aurik Sidney. So he saw my art to work and said, okay, you have passion for medicine and for art. Why not go into medical illustrations? And I was like, okay, what is illustrations? You know, I never heard about it before. So I made some research about it. And I didn't have any medical background. I was a medical student and I had a little background. So it was somewhat of work to do, how to, you know, watch some tutorials on YouTube about, you know, Photoshop, the stuff I used for illustrations. And basically, there was no tutorials on YouTube for medical illustration. So everything I learned was self thought. And then I had a very old computer mouse. I had a very old computer and a computer mouse. So that's literally what I used to learn illustration then. It was tough, you know, it was really tough. But one thing I learned was that I learned how to work for me as an artist. So that was really what, you know, that's how I really all started. But last question for introduction. We're here at Cannes Festival of Creativity, right? Once a time in your life when creativity was really on fire, that you were kind of breaking the boundaries, breaking the rules. Maybe it was when you were a graffiti artist. Maybe it was the small group you were in the warehouse. Maybe it was when you just started drawing, I don't know. But when were you really creatively on fire? Chitty will start with you. So for me was starting from what I said last words, when I was using very crude equipment to create illustrations, because it is very difficult to use a mouse. And she might would agree with me using a mouse to create amazing illustrations. I've created somewhat detailed with a mouse. And for me, I was like, okay, how am I able to create these with just a computer mouse? Because other artists use the graphic tablets. But I realized that just the moment I was able to think outside the box, I was like, okay, what can I achieve with just a computer mouse? Just the moment I had this crude equipment, I was actively thinking when I wasn't drawing. See, if I'm walking on the road, I'm thinking, how can I use a mouse to achieve a perfect control creation? And then I was thinking and thinking and thinking. And I just keep having ideas on how to make it work. And so I think this moment was what really defined. And now I'm using good gadgets. I think this creativity isn't coming what anymore. It's a great story though, constraints, right? You really think creatively to get the output. The beautiful illustrations that you do. I love that. Mel, how about yourself? It was, uh, during the year 2020, like even before that, I was always a pretty good author. You know, clients was cool. They was happy with the work. It was good. But I noticed I felt like I was starting to trade a little bit in complacency. You know, why about 2020 and, you know, up rising unrest and stuff. There was a time where I was having a conversation with my daughter because she was wondering, like, you know, just because I was, you know, I looked at certain way people were going to hate me. And that talk broke me. And so, you know, my creative mentor and also, you know, I had the pleasure of still working with Aaron. We just had a conversation. It's a super candid conversation on just how we're feeling right now. And we talked, he's like, dude, we had to do something. You know, from there, we created this book called ABC Survival, where this book kind of teaches you, you know, especially encourages young people on, you just kind of deal with the mutual aspect of, you know, what's happening in society, dude, you know, racism and, you know, just being comfortable with yourself and their identity and who they are. And it's a really amazing interactive book. It went, you know, Supervival with insane numbers and won a ton of wars. And I'm like, holy hell, if I can take this craft I have, I think we all have a beautiful craft and a beautiful opportunity to tell amazing stories. So I think it's like, if I can take this craft and this platform I'm blessed with to tell stories in the world that mean something to me. I might be on a something. So since 2020, my main emphasis in my career, which is, you know, having initiatives that meant, you know, something to me and, you know, really I'm part of. As a marketer, our job is to be creative, but what does that mean? I love George Lois's definition of creativity. George is, of course, a famous art director. And he said creativity can solve almost any problem. The creative act, the defeat of habit by originality overcomes everything. I love it. The way I think about creativity, I love George's definition, but I think of it as fresh and unexpected ways to solve a problem or to discover new opportunities and new approaches. In the world of business, however, creativity can be a scary word, but it doesn't have to be. In the 2023 Global Marketing Trends Report, Deloitte surveyed more than 1,000 top executives from today's top brands to understand how they plan to meet their customers needs this year. Turns out, some of these high growth brands are reimagining creativity in their organizations. At a time when we're seeing a shift from creative skills to analytical skills in marketing, these brands are often doing the opposite. And some CMOs are discovering creativity can be their superpower. Are you looking to make a meaningful impact in your organization in the year ahead? Check out Deloitte's 2023 Global Marketing Trends Report today at Deloitte.com slash global marketing trends. As creative and marketers, we understand the struggle to keep up with the ever-increasing content demands. And the recent surge of interest among CMOs and chat GPT and other language learning models has added fuel to this fire. Today, businesses should embrace streamlined workflows and automated processes to step into the future of the content supply chain. Good news, Deloitte Digital can help. Their content supply chain solutions can help your business improve collaboration across teams, increase efficiency and reduce costs, all while maintaining high quality content. With Deloitte Digital Solutions, you can create more targeted and relevant content without having to leverage your internal resources. Visit DeloitteDigital.com to learn more. That's a beautiful bridge into the topic that we're going to talk about today, this Illustrate Change initiative. And I want, you're both part of this. I want you to talk about, you know, how did it start? You know, you just talked to the story. You wanted to be part of something that really was meaningful to you. You reached out when you saw the LinkedIn. So what, how did you get from that LinkedIn exchange to here, where we are now? We saw the image. It went around the office. Everybody was like, holy hell, this is amazing. Let's set up this conversation. Please just show one around the Deloitte office. And when I'm on the Deloitte office, yes. So from there, you know, we reached out to Chetty. Then we connected with Deloitte Digital Life Science of Equity team. And then from there, you know, they supplied us with, you know, just a field of experts and their medical experts. And then, you know, we wanted to find the perfect part and to amplify, you know, our message is someone that's really committed to this initiative too. So, you know, we found the perfect part in Johnson and Johnson. So we had all the team players. And then, you know, the one... Did you reach out to Johnson and Johnson? We reached out to Johnson and Johnson. They said, hell yeah, let's do this. So we had to keep opponents. But the one thing that we, we told us of the state truth is like, we can't do this without Chetty. Here's the OG here. He's the administrator and we got to get a straight from the source. So once he was, you know, accepted to it, and he wanted to work with us, game on. Wow. Wow. So you started this. You said, we want to do something about this. It was personally very meaningful to you, obviously. Oh, absolutely. And funny thing you say that because right when this image came out, I was on paternity leave. So I'm sitting here with my wife looking at medical charts. And there was no black images. And then we're in Atlanta. So that is the highest black demographic, especially in, you know, in our county. But there's no, I don't see myself on that wall. I don't see my wife know my baby on that wall. So I was like, that was just even more fuel to kind of get this going. So I actually started and working through this process on paternity leave. But for this, this, this project right here, I made myself available to, you know, to help see this one through. So Chetty, talk about that, you know, when you reach out, you started to get involved with Deloitte and Johnson and Johnson. You know, how, what's your perspective on this? I mean, how does it make you feel when this started to become a real thing, you know, like a bona fide initiative of two of the biggest organizations in the world? Well, I would say, I mean, I was very grateful for, you know, to start with coming from a country like Nigeria, basically, where there's, you know, I had this obscure background where, you know, I didn't have access to, you know, hearing the name Deloitte reaching out to you, Johnson and Johnson reaching out to you was so much to me personally. And I know at that point, my image had gone viral. I've been on CNN, BBC. But I haven't had a big major collaboration before. And this was my big major collaboration. And for me, I was thinking, could this be a one-time thing? You know, we just create images for them and that's the end. But I realized that it was more of a partnership thing that we're going to build something that is big and as big as illustrious change. For me and my team, we're so excited. We had a series of calls since last year or so. We were having a series of Zoom meetings and everything. But seeing it coming to fruition right now is something I'm very grateful for and also being part of something big like this is what it's really humbling. And I can't wait to see where it goes from here, because I believe it's going to be so massive than these. And it's really been a very rewarding journey. It's going to be one of the high points in both of your careers. There's no doubt about it. And, you know, I've been in my career a lot longer than both of you. And you remember these special, special high points. And this is going to be one. You're great. So cherish it. I know you are. But can you tell a little bit about you're in the marketing business, the ad business, communication business, you're in the medical business illustration? Why did this go so viral? What was it about it that made it so viral? When I created this image, I created it from moving to my level. I was going through a lot. I was then out of visa to go to Ukraine when I was already good to medical school. And then because I'm a friend believer, I trust God for everything. And then I was going to go to my miracle. I was trusting God to help me, you know, to raise money for my education. And I started to go from the campaign. So for months, it wasn't, nobody would donate money for me. And then I said, OK, I'll start coming from Ukraine. As I came from the embassy for like two days after I created the image, I was a bit in between what it was to create. So I was in between creating a full anatomy illustration or the particular blood fits illustration. But I said, OK, I was going to create the blood fitters. And I created it and I just said, OK, God, just got to help me with this and to trust God, everything. So I woke up one morning and everything was just a hit. I still didn't understand what it actually meant in depth in the medical field, right? I didn't know that it happened at a time where there was so much of, you know, racism towards black maternal health care. And people started showing their personal experiences. And because it was literally everywhere, people started showing their stories and how they were ill treated because they were black pregnant women and all of that. Then I said, this is just beyond an art world. This is a message to people out there. And so it just started going viral and I was like, wow. And I remember when I was thinking, do people get viral? Or people can get famous for creating illustration? Because for me, it was just an artwork that was black-sinted representing people. And there was no M to be famous. It was just me being passionate about my work and putting it out there and God just did it. And I mean, the rest is history, basically. What do you think now? What do you think is if you were to share the lessons from this about something that goes viral, gets a lot of attention, is about something very positive. I think there's a human truth behind it. And I think it resonated with so many people, especially in the melanin in the community. You know, I'll be honest. I'm not a stagom. I'm an art nerd. But once that, when research in this project that took out to me is that less than 5% of medical illustrations are, you know, are represents melaninated skin. Another thing is that your image came off the heels of like, you know, especially during cans. There was a big topic about black-tolerie rates, especially dealing with, you know, women getting birth and stuff like that. And just the big styrosis and the lack of care. So it was really the perfect storm of what, you know, the company that's been happening and then this image, it kind of came as a solution. And, you know, there's been a lot of talks but it wasn't many solutions out there. So this felt like a solution. It felt like something that could, you know, we want to pick up on it and more people want to be a part of it. I think that was the reason why it went viral. It's also a mother and child, right? There's something. Yes. It's a beautiful illustration, too. It's an amazing illustration. You're very talented. No, thank you, thank you. And just to add to that, and, you know, it also came out of a point where people said things like for 50 years in the healthcare, I have never seen an image of such, right? And it wasn't a common illustration that people have ever seen. And also people also had the experiences where, as ELA said statistically, block men are likely to die from bad complications than white women. And it was also a point where, I think the short letter, George Floyd's, you know, George Floyd's incident and, you know, about, you know, not treating black people fairly and all of that. So people felt like this was not just a medical, but it was like a voice to them. And you know what happened after that? And whether people started sharing their personal stories, short-sighted image in viral, because people didn't have the courage to come out and said, oh, I was ill-treative about my physician. But now the image gave them more, more, not the courage to speak up and what really happened. So I think that people sharing their story, as ELA said, stories are more powerful than data. So people sharing their experiences was just another heat of conversation. And I think that's a reason why it also blew up. It's now an initiative, right? Deloitte's behind the J&J's behind it, you're involved. What are your hopes for this initiative if we look out a year to five, even? Absolutely, you know, with Deloitte Digital and J&J, our hope is to have more representation in its field. You know, we, you know, right now, if you go to the Electric Change website, you know, get down low for free public library, open source, 25 images, done, amazing images done by Chinator Berry. The goal is not only to have, ideally, have images from you, but other, you know, artists, a millenated artist, and you know, millenated representation on his website. So we want this to be a, everyone wants to expand and ideally, we want to change the lack of medical representation for millenated skin. And also to that, we're also looking to us, you know, encouraging more artists because, you know, as Elia said, one image is not enough, right? We need more people who are constantly willing to contribute. And also, we're also seeing how to move this from just being a site, but into textbooks, because textbooks are greatest resources medical students use. And we want to see how we can transform these images from just being on the site to textbooks. And I believe that is like a long, a longer time impact in that. So you're from Deloitte, right? You're all about measurement and results and all that stuff. So, what do you think the KPIs, the key performance indicators would be that this is successful? Would it be the textbooks change that are, that our base of illustrations becomes representative of the world? Absolutely, I think, yes. When this becomes, you know, this, we want these, you know, the industries to be in textbooks. But also, we want, you know, more black artists to just kind of get in the field of medical illustration, because ultimately, you know, the more medical illustrations out there, the more data out there, the more education that we have, and then the better care for the million in the community. So I think that'll be an ultimate KPI. Better care for the community, absolutely. That's a breakthrough. Yes. In my perspective, I think the KPI would be that we, you know, we would visibly see a difference. But for example, I strongly believe that in the nearest future, we're going to see it from now, the data that proves that less than 5% of image would be an increasing data, right? It wouldn't be less than 5% of people, I'm like 50% now, right? Because this has been a workforce, and we launched yesterday, I would say the traction, also showed me that it's massive. And we've had over 50,000 impressions. People are already, already, people are retweeted, we've been flesh-wrapped, already done it. So it is, it is already going there. So what can our listeners do? Everyone who's listening to this right now on the CMO podcast, what can they do to help and get involved? You know, the first time we'll say is, go to the website, illustratechange.com, download the images, spread the message. You know, let's just become a game. If you know anybody who's an illustrator, speaks to them to try to, let's get more illustrators involved. You know, we, this Johnson & Johnson Deloy have a big, you know, initiative with funding that we want a hundred more, you know, illustrators that, that, you know, specialize in melanated skin. So, you know, if you know anybody that's an illustrator, let's get them out there. Let's feel, let's get more people involved. Let's just make this thing, and let's not even make it just a thing. Let's make this a global standard. Right, friend, for me, I think that one way or that it all affects everybody, and it's a job for everybody to do, not just illustrators, but for those who have TV stations, for those who have websites, who can, for those who have big podcasts like this, I would say, talk about it, we share it, and also, it also a measure of, you know, educate people, because sometimes people think, because I'm not an artist, they don't have a role to play, right? But you can educate your neighbor, you can talk about it in school, amongst, it can be including your faculty, where you teach people about lack of representation, because I think that's basically the problem, people don't talk about it, and that's why people don't see it. So people now educate people. So that's, that's what I feel, and I believe that our roles for those listening should be that we need to start educating people about this, and also resharing these to our closest contacts, and see how this grows. Chidi, you're in your second year of medical school. Right. Are you still illustrating? Are you working? I am illustrating, I'm working. You're working illustrating as well, studying and preparing to be, what's your goal in the medical field? Well, I would say, first of all, my goal was to be a pediatric neurosurgeon, right? But I'm still unraveling that, because I realized that, unconsciously, my illustrations are still to women's health care. And I don't know why that happens, right? Because I know that when I was younger, we read a lot of Bincastan's book, and we wanted to be a neurosurgeon, because he inspired us, but I realized that more on deep down inside of me right, I realized my art talks are unconsciously going towards women's health care. So I'm looking to, I'm still yet to discover that, but if I'm going to change, it's going to be into the gynecology and an obstetric area of medicine. Fantastic, fantastic. So you want to be a practicing doctor with illustration? Yes, a practicing doctor. As a kind of a side hustle, the illustration you'll keep doing it? It's not going to be a side hustle, isn't it? No, okay, all right, okay. Main hustle, main hustle, okay. Yeah, because from NETA, which is a part of illustration, was a physician and illustrator, right? So it's possible to combine to and wonder not to suffer. Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful thought. Hey, I want to kind of shift our conversation into the larger creativity space, because we're here in Cannes, which is a festival creativity, and Chidi was on stage. That's a big stage. It's an intimidating stage, right? It's a tough audience, too. If they don't like something, they boo. Yeah, they hiss. So tell me about the experience of being on the big stage in front of all these creative people here at Cannes. Well, first of all, it was just really amazing. I like to be on my imagination, because I literally see people pulling out their phones, taking pictures and making videos. I was like, okay, I'll make a good impression. But at first, when I, because I've given a take talk before, and I think that was a good preparation for these. When I went on stage, I was a bit tense, you know, but I just did an ice breaker. I just, I said to them that in public speaking, we are taught that if you are tense, you have to look into someone's eye that you are very interested in. And I said, I'm interested in everybody. So they all laughed and I was like, okay, I'm good. So from there, I just started speaking, and it was amazing to see the reaction of people reacting to everything. It was fantastic. You got a great reception. Very, great reception. And your main message to them at the end of the speech was, was that we all have to join the, we all have to download the images. We have to join the work first. Now you were on Mel, the health and wellness jury this year. Do I understand that right? Yes, yes. I was on the health and wellness shortlist jury, yes. Well, okay. So tell us about that. You saw a lot of work. A lot of work. Yeah, you had to judge it. Yeah. You had to work with the team and judging it. So how was that experience? Was it tough, fun? It was fun. The one thing I do appreciate about the canned jury is that each piece, you know, that's that submitted, especially the ones that do well in this festival has been long debated. It's been long debates about it. We dissect everything and we make sure that it's, you know, it's in the right category. It's where it needs to be hit. And, you know, it's quality, great work. What were some of the themes that you, when you look at this work, did you feel it was, there was great insights behind it or beautifully crafted, or there was a lot of work in, are there any themes that you could draw from everything you looked at on the health and wellness jury? For the most part, you know, I think a lot of it, the global reach and the global response to women's health has been a big topic on this. So, you know, there was a lot of work submitted from, you know, Burma, there was places in West Africa and South Africa. And even in South America, we, you see this lack of, I would say agency, when it comes to, you know, you know, dealing with women and their health needs from something that's simple as, you know, just learning about tampons and being able to go to school. And it's so crazy because, you know, me living in the States, I always thought that was essential, like, you know, they can go to school whenever, like, it's not a big deal, but in other countries, they're still, you know, delivering in there and women do not have the right to even go to school and get their education because of things that's happened to them naturally. PNG's been working on that for many years. Yeah, it's a fabulous initiative through their healthcare, their women's health brand, always, yeah. Okay, I want to talk a little bit more about creativity before we end this great discussion. We talk about when you were creatively on fire. I would like you to both talk about what are the conditions that help you be creative? Is it an environment, a challenge, personal commitment? What is it? What are the conditions when you really feel like, ah, you know, I can really be myself and do great work? What I realized is that if the brief, least one person in tears, we're gonna kick ass on this, I want to accept him in creation. And I think lately, with this project and other projects we've been working on, with that brief, you know, we emotionally connect to it and we want to make sure that we give this work to probably respect and care that it deserves and tell that story the right way. Adversity basically, you know, builds that, you know, creativity in you and because from it, that's what really happens. And I think for everybody who has also, who have also created some sort of innovation, you know, because they wanted something to work, well, they didn't have to make it work. And at that point, it makes you think outside the book, what can I do differently to make this work? You know, and this has happened in my images, like sometimes when I was using my very creative images to create illustrations, sometimes I would use a week to create a particular illustration. And on the last day of exporting the image, my system would crash, everything just crashes. And it kept happening every week and every week. So I had to think, okay, what's the way out of this? Then I had this, I had a friend of mine who had a laptop, a very good one. So I would copy the file and export it in his laptop. You know, as as as simple as that, you know, that was my creative process. I'm not repeating an illustration over and over again. So I do believe that, you know, when sometimes I'm difficult in your life, you know, just gives you that, I believe to be very creative about the thing. And I think that's the sign of a great creator of who could have problem solved on the fly and like, dude, that's super unexpected. You had to figure out and call that pivot and find the solution right on the spot. You got to call that audible and make it happen. So I think that's just something that's, you're just born with, man, just that creative problem solved. And I think that's the reason why your career has taken off in its fashion and you're doing such wonderful things. You do a beautiful job with barriers. Right. Really? Yeah, they can get a lot of people down. That doesn't get you down. Absolutely. And that's creativity, right? Definitely. Now for the senior leaders out there listening to this, who run big organizations, what can they do to pull, to elicit more creativity, inspire more creativity from their teams? You said a great brief, that's emotional. What else could senior leaders who have a big organization do to bring out more creativity from their people? I would say, you got to do the groundwork. You got to go with the people who are, you got to listen to who's out there, listen to your audience, listen to your demographic. I think a lot of the tastemakers now aren't the old guards anymore. It's the kids on TikTok. Those are the creatives. And they go with the Lloyd Digital Dunn really well. It's kind of seeing what's happening with Chide, and we being on the ground, and we seen his image. He was like, all right, this is what's happening. This is something that's needed. And had that vision at Forsyte to determine, like, no, we're going to be both with this, and we're going to be unapologetic, and we're going to take this, give the respect you deserve. But make sure that he gets to tell a story the way that's authentic to him, and we're just going to go along for the ride. Exactly. And I do also think that they have great roles to play, because we have so many creatives, but they don't have the assets for growth. Because sometimes, growth can be very difficult if you're in an environment that's not supportive of growth. And because we have, for example, in Africa, there's so many creatives who are innovating things, who are building things, but the environment is not supportive of their growth process. So I believe that big organizations are able to give young people the opportunity to show what they have. And I believe not just that, but helping them to grow by providing their resources, providing the mentorship. Because for me, I'm a part of good mentorship. And because from people who really want to learn and grow, but they don't have the opportunity to sit on the shirt on shirt of people who are doing amazing jobs. So I think that great organizations can provide good mentorship, come to write a venue for growth support. And I think that's just a great way to start off. And I was at a talk yesterday with my guy, Kenny Goes, a rock star. At this talk, it was somebody from Africa. And he does sound brand, audio branding, audio advertising. And the one thing that resonated with me is that it's so amazing how we are starting to acknowledge and appreciate the creativity that comes out of Africa. I think that's been such an overlooked market for so long. And now, and so recently, we start really pay. And the gold community started really paying attention. And y'all are crushing. One site was that hip hop is actually no longer the number one music genre. It's been replaced by Afro beats, and surprisingly, and R&B. So it goes to show that a lot of the talent that's controlling the pulse in this industry, and the taste of the industry is coming out of places like Africa and India. It's important that we pay it to TITUUM and we help them and listen to them and understand the story and realize that they're not just doing an African version of an ad that's done from the West. No, let them do it their way. They understand their base, they understand the audience, and they understand the trends and how to create and send new ones. So yes, we definitely appreciate it. I noticed, and I appreciate the creativity and the work that's coming out of Africa. This festival's way better because this festival's way more diverse. When I first came 20 years ago, it was all people look like me. I'm more older than me. This festival is so much better now, and there's so much more creativity. Okay, last two questions, most inspiring person in your life. In my life? My wife is going to kill me. But I would say, I would have to say my mom, and the reason is was she the one who got me into R and made sure that this is something that, if I'm going to do it, I'm going to be great at, but she's a Southern woman geeking, family from the coast of South Carolina. And the one thing that I do appreciate about that part of my family is that they're very honest, they're very blunt. And they pretty much like, you work with what you have until you get more. And she gave me that word for everything. She makes sure it's like, if there's something, if this is your calling, which is good at, she still don't know what I do exactly, but she just supported. So every time I see it, she's like, oh, my baby just makes drawing. She do those little drawings and stuff. But she's like, I'm just glad he's granted it. So I think, you know, and because of her, her straight talk and her keeping me on a straight and that one, you know, I'm able to have the career, you know, I have now. It's a great story, Chitty. For me, I would say definitely my last mother, you know, she raised the man out of me. And she was someone that was very sucker-free, she didn't have good education, but she ensured that children differently should have good education. And I'm sorry that she's not here anymore to see all of this blur and everything, but I really say she really inspires me because she was so hardworking, she was so committed to her cause. And at the very time, she would go extra mile to Burmone, just to ensure that the kids are all in school and she really inspired me. And that's why everything I do is always to ensure that, you know, I'm making our pride in it, I'm not saying she's not here. And that's why in all my presentation, I always use my picture that I took with her the last time because she inspires me to be, to be everything I am today, and I'm really, really grateful for that. I always ask my guests what the first brand, they remember as a young person making an impact on them. So what brand do you first remember saying, wow, this is meaningful to me, Chitty? No, it's really hard. We grew up in a very small community, right? We didn't have access to so many equipment and all of that. So, but I could tell that we just, we're just very natural people, always, you know, playing around sand and trying to hunt on different things, but yeah, I can't really tell anymore, but I do know that we always seeing local television, maybe once in a while, it's just been a random thing. I don't really know any brand that I really, you know. No, I get it, Mel, how about yourself? I would say the cross-pollulation branding between Michael Jordan, Spike Lee, the Spizzikes. Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, once, not only just the shoes, just that campaign and the coolness of it, change my life, I'm like, you know, just do for Brooklyn. And it just, it made me look at just the Nike brand and totally different. I mean, I'm pretty sure Nike is somewhere in Brooklyn. Just the fact that they spoke to, you know, me or the, you know, authenticity, I can't afford sneakers, but I just appreciate having just the posters and watching the commercials. So I think that brand is, I would say always resume, will be resonated with me the most. Guys, thank you for this. This has been a gift. This show. Thank you. I told you, when we started this show, before we went live, this would be the best podcast of the year, the best podcast of Cannes. They'll put that pressure on us. And it has been, and you're done. And it has been, this is a real gift. They good luck with the initiative. I hope all of our listeners get online, take a look and see what they can do. And I hope the medical industry, the pharmaceutical industry rises up. It sounds like they are. And cheers to Deloitte and to Kudos to Deloitte and to J&J for what they're doing to help you with this passion project that will make a huge difference. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thanks for having us here. And I'm just, I'm just a fan being able to sit next to the people that I, you know, I'm a fan of. I'm a kid in the candy store. I'm totally going to fish myself and maybe jump into water after this. That sounds good. I'm talking to you. That sea looks very nice. Yeah, exactly. I mean, for me, I'm very grateful. And this is my first time on a yacht, you know? And having a park doesn't have a yacht. It's fantastic. I'm going to shoot this on my social media that I want a yacht, you know? But I think it's a fixer. Definitely should take a picture. And I'm super excited, you know. Thank you so much for having personally. I'm grateful. That was my conversation with Chitty and Mel. Three takeaways from this one for your business brand in the life. The first one, if you're a client out there or a brand, the power of a brief that brings emotion to the forefront, that brings a tear to the eye. Mel talk about, he does his best work. When the brief gets him, chokes him up, makes him feel like he really wants to jump in. Second take away, it's amazing what can happen when we have our ears and eyes open to what's going on in the world. Mel saw the medical illustration on LinkedIn, reached out to Chitty. And here we now have a major initiative with Johnson and Johnson and Deloitte involved that can make major impact in the world. This happened because Mel was listening and watching and reading and acted on something he cared about. Last take away, this was so obvious in this recording. Work on things that are meaningful to you. When you're working on things on a brand or in your personal life that have deep meaning, deep relevance, an emotional kind of tie to you, you do amazing work. So seek that out in your work, in your life, in your career. That's it for this episode of The CMO Podcast. If you found this helpful and entertaining, I would be so grateful if you could share our show with your friends. And I would be super happy if you subscribe so you can be updated as we publish new episodes. And if you really want to help, leave us a five star rating and a positive review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. The CMO Podcast is a gallery media group for original production.