Office Hours: Sustainability | Nelson Kunkel (Deloitte Digital)

Hi, I'm Jim Stangel and I help major brands find their purpose and activate it in the profits followed. For seven years, I was the global marketing officer for Prokker & Gamble, where I oversaw the marketing of hundreds of brands. You may not know it, but the CMOs, the chief marketing officers of all of your favorite brands are trying to connect you with your favorite products and services through purpose. And on this show, I delve into how they do it. This is a special episode of the CMO podcast. It's an office hours edition, where we periodically dive into an important and topical issue that so many of you are wrestling with. Today, in the middle of Earth Month, our theme is as it should be sustainability and the role of marketing. Spoiler alert, we are not where we need to be. A full 56% of CMOs have little to no say in sustainability strategies at their companies. We will talk about that. My guest today is Nelson Kunkle, Deloitte's chief marketing officer in its sustainability practice. Before this role, Nelson was the global chief design officer at Deloitte Digital. Full disclosure, Deloitte is a sponsor of the CMO podcast, which is a big reason I can get such great guests from Deloitte on the show. This is my conversation about what I feel should be in the scope of every CMO and senior marketer listening. Here's Nelson. Welcome, Nelson, to our first dedicated CMO podcast show on sustainability and marketing. It's about time. But first, I have to ask you, I'm seeing behind you in this Zoom recording, is that a water ski? Propped up against the wall behind you? Probably unexpected. Those are surfboards. Oh. Which I see behind you as well. I have a surfboard here. Mine's bigger and older and clunkier than yours, though, I think. Yeah, I think my difference is I live in the middle of Nebraska and you live in California. So I've started a small, but burgeoning middle coast surf club out here. But I might be one of the few Midwestern surfers that you'll ever meet. So where do you surf? You're in Omaha, right? Outside of Omaha, we can go to Omaha and Lincoln, surrounded by cornfields, but we live out on Lake. And so we have a surf boat in the backyard. Oh, how nice. It's one of the consulations for moving back towards my wife's family that I got. Very good. Very good. All right. So I'm going to be surfing. Maybe we'll get back to that later. Let's begin this conversation with a really fundamental question. When Deloitte and you define sustainability, what does that encompass? What does that mean to you? Because the word is one of those words now that everyone has a different interpretation. So when you think about building sustainability practice, what does that mean? For sure. And I think we're seeing this evolve almost daily in terms of the nomenclature. It's a lot like back in the day when new media became interactive and then interactive became all things, but like a little E dash in front of it. And then that became at some point digital. And even that's becoming something else. Really for us is the intersection of driving and creating the future of business at the intersection of not just profit or prosperity, but the intersection of what's good for people on planet. And somewhere in there is really describing hopefully what is something that feels very timely, but also just becomes smart business. And so a lot of what we're doing here at Deloitte is trying to help companies navigate the current waters of regulatory, social and other pressures that are happening in the world and all the headlines that we see daily. And figure out just like times in the past, just like digital, just like the rise of data. How do leaders find business value, but ultimately how do they find competitive advantage in that territory? From everything I say, this is a big commitment on Deloitte's part. And you're devoting a lot of resources toward helping clients with sustainability challenges and opportunities, which you've just been kind of referring to. And I guess it's an obvious question why you're building out this practice. But I'd like you to talk a little bit about, was there a catalyst, a person, an event, a client that really inspired your company to do this? Because this is no small effort. Deloitte doesn't develop a new practice or a new business unit, cavalierly. We don't. And in some instances you could probably find evidence that we've waited until things are baked and in stone, so to speak, from a business perspective until we know it's a sure thing. I think this is one of those cases where a bunch of forces collided for Deloitte. I don't know, Jim, that it was any one event. I think it's the realization that as we've changed our firm dramatically, internally, around social and environmental challenges and ambitions. And others have naturally just built capabilities over time in various pockets of our big vast firm that it just made sense. It made sense to bring it together in a way that planted our flag and said, yeah, this isn't just a division of a thing. This isn't just a small group that's going to sell a widget. This is defining not just the future of us, it's defining future of all our clients. I mean, that's incredibly important, obviously, and very heavy. Tell us a bit about your choice to be in this role. Because you were a long time at Deloitte Digital, I mean, something like 11 years, I think, as global chief design officer. So how did you land in this role? And tell us about what it means to you. Yeah, I actually, it's interesting you bring that up. I actually came to Deloitte to build Deloitte Digital. It was a time when a few of us kind of floating around had this notion that the world's artists consultancy that really understood the strategic direction and intent of an enterprise and then new in spades how to build anything for that enterprise. There was this piece missing of creativity and sort of the why, why are you doing it in whom for? And we answered that with what became Deloitte Digital. And that began sort of my venture into getting to know this place and getting to know the tough beauty of trying to create something new within a giant organization. And I think that same challenge applies here to sustainability. I don't know if there's a clean answer. I think about this daily, like, what the hell am I doing in this business? It is, you know, on the surface, the world's largest design challenge. It's begging for creative answers. It's begging for a better way of looking at things and bringing humanity to it and doing a whole bunch of stuff which plays into everything that we've learned as a firm around building creative and then helping others build creative capabilities into their business. I think for me it was, came at a perfect time in my life where I'm sort of exiting the cross-man era of my career and thinking very heavily about what is this all for? How do we really leave something that's going to matter in the world? Is your company struggling to compete in the digital marketplace? Does your e-commerce ecosystem fuel growth and meet ever-changing customer needs? Well, Deloitte Digital recently advised a large consumer brand as it reimagined its e-commerce ecosystem and Deloitte Digital can work with you, too. Deloitte Digital has extensive experience in marketing, strategy, design, technology, and finance and works with brands so they can create experiences that cater to their customer's needs. As a former CMO who speaks to podcast guests regularly, I know the rise of online shopping means e-commerce services and experiences are more important than ever. If you're a company looking to reimagine your e-commerce ecosystems, contact Deloitte Digital by visiting www.deloittedigital.com. Did you know that nearly a quarter of workers say they are likely to quit their job in the next 12 months and less than half would recommend their organization as a place to work? Well, if you listened to this podcast, you shouldn't be too surprised by all this. I recently interviewed for this show Upwork CMO of Melissa Waters and she talked about the need to define a new reality at work. Well, here's some help for you in trying to make progress with all of this. Deloitte Digital's new study of workforce experience has discovered some potential solutions. They surveyed 4,000 plus US-based workers and determined the nine factors that can have the most impact on a person's workforce experience. And by elevating the workforce experience for employees, we can help elevate the customer experience. Workers who were surveyed, who have had an excellent employee experience, were found to be three times more likely to say their organization is customer-focused and one and a half time more likely to enjoy working directly with their organization's customers and clients, a potential and powerful win-win. For more, get the report today at www.deloittedigital.com slash US slash WXD report. In today's ever-evolving retail space, digital marketplaces offering a centralized space for shopping needs are very popular. If you are rethinking your digital marketplace, Deloitte Digital is here to work with you. They advise a large consumer brand as it transformed its e-commerce ecosystem, drove growth and met customers' needs. The brand wanted to try to stay ahead of trends and develop a faster and more flexible way to add new products and categories to their website. And Deloitte Digital delivered by advising them with strategy and the implementation of innovative technology. As the trend towards online shopping grows and grows, e-commerce services are more important than ever. So contact Deloitte Digital at www.deloittedigital.com today to see how they can work with you. You're about seven or eight months into the role with this enormous challenge we have as a planet, as a society at large, the crosses, national boundaries of course. You're in one of the largest firms in the world tackling this. Where did you start? How did you start designing your job, designing your role? Well, there's a few ways to look at that. One of the biggest things that I've been pushing for since second one of even hearing that this could be a thing that we could all realize is that we have a story problem. And I've been circling around this globe long enough that I've seen this before. I've seen the different times in history, at least my lifetime, where we've made a run of things because there's a hole in the ozone or a turtle that chokes on a straw or there's an oil spill or something. There's always a grand event that inspires some kind of collective action and then we see it just go away. Just a little bit of human nature that we forget. And I've never really seen what I'm seeing today, which is sort of the need of what's right for all of us to continue to do all the great things that got us here, that if not before, all these things could be then solved the challenges that we've created along the way. But I look back and I really feel that there's this moment that we're in because of what's happening with legislation, because of what's happening with investment in capital markets, because of what's happening with technology, and certainly because of what's happening with the world socially and environmentally. There's something really interesting there. But at the same time, that interest can't be fear based. It can't be mad max beyond underdome if you remember that one. It can't be the doom and gloom. Let's all shout at the wind until each other that it's failing or over or too late. There's a better story to be had. And so part of what I've been driving with the team and the collective leadership group since day one is, what is that story? And maybe that's something that's just sort of universal in our business and marketing, but that ambition that others can get behind and for a reason that's not based out of panic, how do we flip that and how can we find a new focus that's something useful and something and powerful and how can we find beauty in this moment? It doesn't return us to what once was, but it takes us forward into an unknown, which we all get anxious about, but an unknown that's wonderful. And I think in there, in that story is everything that we need, because in there, then we can sell services and we can show up with a different conversation and we can engage people in a different way and we can inspire them and we can uncover the stuff that you can only do and you notice, you can only do in a positive part as opposed to making a requirement. How far along do you think you are in building this story? 20%, 40%, 80%? Gosh, I'd say in my head, I'm a lot further long than than than on paper. And I think what's interesting about that, your audience might relate to this and I've heard this from some of your other sessions or your other episodes, but there's definitely resistance and I don't think that resistance is beholden to us internally. I think there's resistance out in the world. I think there is a bit of panic around sustainability. I think there's a lot of unenlightness, just a lot of divisiveness, listen, sustainability, whatever label you want, put the climate stuff, the ESG stuff. I think one of our challenges is how do you prove something that hasn't been done before? So how do you show up and say, I've got an idea that's dramatically different and you need to have some trust that this is going to be the right thing because if we're just going to rely on all the studies and all the research and we're going to wait for that perfect 18 month project, it proves the hypothesis, et cetera, et cetera, we're just going to inch along and this is not the time to be inching along. This is the time for us to show up as a brand and help others show up as brands and as markets as different and have something to say that's memorable and drives and inspires action. I do want to go to some research that you have done among CMOs about sustainability and marketing and I found two statistics in that research to be pretty amazing and I want to start with the first one and it's the one that says, to me I'm still processing this, only 44% of CMOs say they are among key decision makers regarding sustainability at their companies. So the opposite of that, 56% say they have no involvement in sustainability at their companies. I would have expected CMOs to be much more involved than certainly many that I talk to seem to be. So what's your speculation Nelson or what's going on here? I would have expected the same, Jim. I think there's a few things going on and I'm going to make this up. So don't put me on record. You are on record. Now I know the research is pretty fresh, so I'm sure you're still processing it too. I'm processing a few things. I'm processing that this current movement, if you will, of sustainability has been fueled largely by finance. It's fueled by the regulatory issues happening around tax and all the other things that are available. It's seen to some degree as either risk avoidance or risk remediation. There's a lot of things in there that hit squarely in chief finance officer, chief logistics, chief operations. I think as we've seen in other eras, the marketer tends to get pulled in last or tends to be the recipient to some degree of then other corporate pressures. Now I don't think that's true across the world because there's 40 something percent that are the inverse. This might hit on a consistent theme that this yet again is another opportunity for the marketer to stand up and own that vision. How does that, how do you pull that out of finance? How do you take that idea and make it something that everybody can see themselves in? That's really the role of the marketer that you've talked about before in your episodes of going beyond just the traditional version, the stereotypical version of how we think about marketing or the marketer coming or the CMO's role and taking it into the entire organization. I think for that 40 something percent, that's what we're seeing. For the 50 something percent, I have a lot of guesses. One of my guesses which ties into a report we did last year, which is the creativity gap around almost the decline of the CMO and in that decline of the CMO is evidence that points to CMO's largely becoming a lot more functional than maybe creative and I'm boiling gotten a lot of the meat off the bone on that. I wonder in there if CMO's have gotten so wound up in function and data and reporting and all the other stuff that's critical to measurement and effectiveness and all of that, that some organizations have lost a little bit of that connection back to you. What's the vision that's really driving us? Not the vision that's driving us today, which is important, but what's the vision that's going to drive us to the next five, 10, 15 years? What are those end markets we're going to create that we hadn't realized? What are those products or services that we could deliver in a new way, if not create a new way? I think in that territory is a playground that's rife in sustainability for CMO's to really tune up and say, okay, if I understand all those forces and I understand why all these pragmatic pieces of our organization are getting behind sustainability, how can I elevate that and make it something that's not external for us in terms of a headline, but something that's internal in terms of our ambition? Does that resonate with you out of the year? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think in my experience, it's often it rests with the CFO or the chief supply chain officer. And of course, they have to be highly involved, but I do feel like in the more progressive companies, the CMO, if the CMO has a strong role in the leadership of the company, they're going to have a strong role in their sustainability strategies. I mean, they would go hand in hand. The second stat that surprised me was that only 25% of CMO's are working to nudge or change consumer behavior regarding sustainability. Most from your study are really working on internal practices like reducing their own energy usage, reducing waste, other choices. So I guess my question to you is, I was kind of hopeful that 25% number would have been higher and I know in some companies, they are taking proactive steps with consumers to look for a win-win. So is that a good thing that they're looking inside first? I think it's a good thing. I think it's necessary right now. I believe there's just general fatigue about this topic. I think so many people have seen the spur of the moment short-lived, rallying cries around different things and it's gotten overwhelming. It's just so much to ask me as an individual to do yet one more thing. I balance out a little bit with, you know, there's been cases where we all just change our social icon in social media and feel like we're doing something incredibly wonderful, which we haven't done anything at all. But at the same time, there's also that fatigue of just, I did do the thing, whatever was asked, the faucet thing, the composting thing, whatever the thing. It didn't matter or why is this on me when we can all find lots of instances where giant so-and-so's are found guilty or accused of doing something, either that I can't control, that's having tremendous impact on millions of not billions of people, et cetera, et cetera. And I think there needs to be the ownership now of the inverse, which is corporations and enterprises stepping up and saying, okay, we need to do something here. And not just for the altruistic, greater good. We need to do something here because it's right for our business. It's smart. It helps us grow and have something that we can get out of it, but doesn't do it on the backs of others. We're going from where, it's just someone else's phrase, but the, you know, world's largest enterprises and brands were sort of built on the backs of doing bad things, potentially for people in planet, to where the ones that now are doing great things for people in planet are becoming the biggest and the most valuable and the ones that are growing the fastest. And I think we're seeing that across industries. But definitely that study points to the trend where CMOs, at least that 40-something percent are internalizing and saying, okay, this is no longer about the superficial nature of a promise or an idea. This is about us delivering. And the more that every business can internalize that first and say, we did it. And now let's set that example, especially in this world where that example is then leaking into the relationships that you have with your Scope 2 and Scope 3 partners, vendors, alliances, your supply chain, as you mentioned, like that's elevating the tide for everybody, not just for one. And I think that's important right now. Many leaders will tell you you want to retain the best talent. We hear that over and over again on the show. Deloitte Digital's research suggests that a positive overall experience with an organization alone is generally not sufficient to retain workers. In fact, 25 percent of surveyed workers reveal they plan to leave their current organization within the year. So what can an employer do? In my experience, I have found that it always comes down to relationships. In fact, when I was at P&G, we found a strong correlation between an employee's relationship with their first boss and their ultimate career advancement. Deloitte Digital's research also found this to be true. A positive relationship with the manager is a critical factor in employee engagement. Deloitte Digital's tool, the workforce experience north star, can help you build stronger manager employee relationships. It measures a combination of employee experience factors, satisfaction, and retention. If you are looking to drive loyalty and retention at your organization, and I'm sure you are, check out Deloitte Digital's new report at www.deloittedigital.com slash US slash WXD report. What do you think it will take to get over the fatigue? Because I think we have to have both, right? We have companies that are doing the right thing internally and we need the whole ecosystem to challenge some behaviors and behave in a different way. If we were talking a few years from now, are you hopeful that 25% number will improve and that we'll figure out how to tackle the fatigue issue? There's companies like the auto companies. Most of their communication really is about a better plan than electrification, the change they're all making. If you look at my alma mater, P&G Tides, been talking about cold water usage for years and they have impacted behavior on that. There are some interesting case studies where it has worked. Consumers are happy. The planet is better. The companies are more competitively distinctive. What do you think it will take for us to overcome this fatigue? Because I agree with you, people do feel almost helpless and overwhelmed. Two things have many come to mind, but I think the first is, I think while I'll get back to my telling better stories, I think there needs to be a focus on the good as opposed to the bad. There's some incredible things happening. I could tune my headlines so that every day I wake up and see a lot of gloom, but I'm trying to tune my headlines so that every day I wake up and I see some incredible stuff. There's robotic fish that can go through the ocean and consume microplastics. Use these giant weights that can be lifted into the sky using traditional energy and then store that energy for when it's needed later. They lower down to create friction that then builds energy back into the grid. There's so many cool things happening right now. That's just a few in the climate tech space. I'm really excited for a generation. I don't need to make this an age thing, but it could be just an era of individuals who are so focused on what's possible and how quickly we can make things happen that they just become obsessed with it. I think that's going to be part of what helps bring us out of that fatigue. I think the second thing is just in there, that it's just inevitable change. It's the silly analogy of it's at some point my little device here lost its headphone jack. A lot of people complained about it, but at some point didn't have a headphone jack anymore. I know it's a silly little thing, but at some point these things that we grew up with that just felt like that's the way it had to be will just disappear and there will be a wonderful alternative. Some of us are going to complain about it. Some of us are going to embrace it. It's going to be a bunch of stuff in between. We'll get there. I think having that stuff show up in mass at global scale is probably as critical as asking somebody to participate and drive personal change. How's the external partner ecosystem involved in this at this point? Nelson, I mean the media agencies, the content companies, the ad agents, the media agencies, the design agencies, consumer experience agencies. We have lots of agencies that most clients are working with. Are they highly involved? Are they bringing new ideas? Are they on the sidelines? Oh, it's a Doc's breakfast out there. I think there's those of a vision that are seeing tremendous opportunity. I think the experiential agencies are having a heyday right now because the way they think about how do we get people through something that makes it real for them and tangible for them? How do we take ideas and ideals and things that could just feel philosophical and make them give them life and make them real? I think those agencies, we've partnered with several wonderful experiential agencies and this is their moment because it's part of that challenge I mentioned before of how do you prove the thing that isn't a thing yet? Let's show it and that's what those agencies are really great at. I think there's others that are falling into a little bit or cycling through the churn of the cliches. I have a rule on my team that's, I think we've violated it once or twice. You can hold my feet to the fire but the rule that I never want to see an image of someone in a hard hat standing next to a solar panel with a wind turbine in the background. I'd say that half-jokingly because I think buried in there is a whole world of cliches to our report that you were just citing. It's a little bit of how do we make people feel good on the outside as opposed to how do we deeply look at ourselves and do self-reflecting change moments internally. I think the agencies, some agencies I found are still a little bit on the outside. Oh, this is just another thing. This is just another marketing moment as opposed to, you know, this is truly a fundamental shift in how businesses do business and brands do brands. I think the agencies that are on that side that I've seen are going to dominate. I want to return to a question that you brought up earlier in this conversation and that's everything in this world seems to get sort of weaponized and this topic is no different. So what's your counsel to clients to pursue the right strategy, do the right thing and somehow navigate this very complicated external environment we are in? I think most marketers can look at something and understand intuitively if it's just good because it's in the moment or if it's good because it's lasting, that there's a timelessness to it. And I think in that is the decision-making around actions that we all need to take around sustainability. I've now lived through, I graduated college, the rise of the web design agency when all the advertising agencies said, those kids, those brokers, they don't know what they're doing, they don't know creative, you know, we do our thing and that that fad is not here to stay. And I've seen that time and time again in the last 30 years of my professional life that just, the something comes out, there's a group that resists, there's a group that makes fun and points the finger. You talked about this with Mark Singer, the consultancy. He and I both lived through that. The rise of the creative consultancy when so many agencies looked and said, ah, they won't get it, they can't do it. They're, you know, etc, etc. Now not to say that we haven't made mistakes along the way, but in each of those movements, you've just seen that there were things that just, they were right and they mattered. Of course, why wouldn't you create a website that becomes your largest store completely detached from all the constraints of the physical nature of retail as some crazy example? Like, why wouldn't you do that? It just makes sense. And why wouldn't you, you know, centralize this and do that and all these other things? And I think we're at that moment with sustainability that if you can, if you can put aside the politics and put aside the things that you feel shiny and interesting right now because you're just writing the current or riding the edge of that, that wave to go back to our surfing linkage and everything behind it or a lot of things behind it are real and material that objectively just makes sense because they're smart. It wasn't too long ago. We had one boat stuck in the Suez Canal and there were some incredible things that came out of that. So why wouldn't you create resilience in your supply chain? Well, of course you would because do you want your entire business model to be dependent upon one boat getting stuck or not? And I think that attitude bleeding into the marketing world and taking stock of what am I doing that's shaping the future, my relationship with my customer and how can I make sure that the things that I do right now can have dramatic impact on either changing that, shaping that, making that more resilience. If that makes sense and just do it and it's not to say that people won't try to do that here or now, I think that's relevant for a lot of brands, but behind the scenes they should be doing things that just becomes smart business. We have several thousand marketing leaders listening to this episode right now. What would you like them to know that you know about the role of the CMO, the role of marketing sustainability? I think part of this is just having the courage to take the idea out of marketing and put it into the rest of the business is probably the hardest but most ambitious and rewarding thing that any marketer could ever do. It's easy for some of us, I won't put this on everybody because we're all different, but for some of us that have grown up being craftspeople, I'm used to building things and when you build something you rally a team around a vision and you a lot of times protect it and it will cost. You protect that vision, you protect the execution of it. I think we need to invite more people into this and sustainability, that it can't be just you and your department certainly can't be you and the individuals who believe in what you're doing. It's got to be so much bigger than that. So I'd say taking that idea, making it relevant, having that idea find itself in others, there's incredible challenge in that, there's incredible beauty in that and I think that's where we're going to see incredible gains in creating a sustainable future for business that just becomes business for all of us. Obviously, you're building a new practice with your team at Deloitte. Are you super hopeful? I mean you said it's a tough job, CMOs are feeling a little bit beaten up. You seem like a very pragmatic but a positive guy. Are you hopeful and if you are, why? I'll admit that I've become pragmatic through the years because I'm so obsessed with creating a collective around something that I'm incredibly passionate about and love to do. But if I do it in my natural creative way, I just might or often do come across as just a dreamer. And so being able to temper that and being able to spend time to communicate that in a way that feels right and objective, strategic and logical, it's very much why Maggie Gross and I get along so well because there's this version where you need to present yourself in a way that feels pragmatic. Oh, of course, that should be the thing that we do. But in there is the Trojan horse of, yeah, I did the thing. We actually created the mission and maybe everyone didn't realize that this was going to be a crazy wild ride that no one would ever have done before. But if you sell it in a way that feels like it's okay, then that works too. So that's probably the pragmatism, the part of it. But you asked the second part of that question and I'm missing the second part of that question. Are you hopeful about? I'm not hopeful. Am I optimistic? Yeah, I think it's in my nature to be optimistic. I tend to go through the world looking at the good stuff, not the bad stuff. I too, and maybe this isn't hopefully not just me, but I too tend to, man, I can get overwhelmed by that bad stuff. I just don't get any utility out of it. There's no function in it for me. So yeah, I think optimism is right. It's certainly not idealism. But I think the optimism and sort of the hopeful nature of things is something that I very much relate to. You were part of the team that built Deloitte Digital into quite a force. Now you're part of a team that is building the sustainability practice at Deloitte into something very important for your company and the world. If you were to dream a little bit and look out five, seven years on what you're building now, what do you think the greatest impact it will be for clients and for the world? Well, I think that the clearest premise that I can stand behind is we are a very small part of a large movement that just becomes the norm. It gets back to my, in the 90s, every company just became a technology company and then the early 2000s, every company became a data company. We saw in the last decade, every company just became a creative company. It used to be beholden to the Nike's and Apple's and versions of the world. And now everyone is, at least all the leaders in across sectors and ministries are just creative. They operate creatively. I think this now is this movement that every company to exist and to survive the next 50 hundred years will just become sustainable and that will just be part of business. And we won't talk about it potentially, which might be controversial, but I just think sort of as we saw the rise and then disappearance of the chief digital officer, there's a potential we might see that with the chief sustainable officer. Not because it doesn't matter because sustainability is a trend because it will just become embedded in the thing that functioned everybody brings to the table. And I think there's some wonder in that. I'm really obsessed with what's going to happen when an EV battery gets a thousand or two thousand miles per charge. What's going to happen to rural America and the highway system and all those little stops that we get when you travel from one coast to the other? What's going to happen to those towns? What's going to happen to the economy? Or what happens inversely to urban America? How does it transform cities and boundaries and how we think about commuting and logistics and all these things? It's just one of millions of examples that get me excited about this work that we're entering into. That's a good place to end this chat, Nelson. Listen, I wish you tremendous success in the company and what you're tackling and thank you for doing it. And I wish you happy surfing. That was my conversation with Nelson Conkel. This was an important conversation anytime but especially appropriate in the middle of Earth Month. If you want to learn more about Deloitte's sustainability research and practice, you will find a link in the show notes. That's it for this episode of the CMO Podcast. If you found this helpful and entertaining, I would be so grateful if you could share our show with your friends. And I would be super happy if you subscribed so you can be updated as we publish new episodes. And if you really want to help, leave us a five-star rating and a positive review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. The CMO Podcast is a gallery media group original production.