Sejal Shah Miller (Converse) | Bringing Creativity and Curiosity to a Legacy Brand

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A recurring theme has started to pop up on the CMO podcast, Sustainability. One of our recent guests even incorporated sustainability into his job title. He might not be alone. According to Deloitte's 2023 Global Marketing Trends report, Sustainability continues to be a focus for brands. While some organizations may want to pull back on sustainability initiatives in times of economic uncertainty, consumers continue to stress that a brand's commitment to sustainability is critical to their preferences. However, only 25% of brands that Deloitte surveyed say their focus for 2023 is on urging consumers to take action. Instead, organizations are recognizing that focusing on their own sustainability efforts can have an even more positive impact on the planet and on their business. For more inspiration on how to make this year, be your organization's most impactful year yet. Check out Deloitte's 2023 Global Marketing Trends report at Deloitte.com slash Global Marketing Trends. I think that's another important thing in that social ecosystem. You've got to experiment and you've got to play and it's okay to be wrong. There is no wrong it, you move past it, but you've got to show that you're not perfect as a brand and it's like progress over perfection and they'll go with you. Hi I'm Jim Stangle and I help major brands find their purpose and activate it and the profits follow. For seven years, I was the Global Marketing Officer for Procter & Gamble where I oversaw the marketing of hundreds of brands. You may not know it, but the CMOs, the chief marketing officers of all of your favorite brands are trying to connect you with your favorite products and services through purpose. And on this show, I delve into how they do it. My guest today on the CMO podcast is Sejal Shalm Miller, the chief marketing officer of Converse, one of the brands that I often cite as having an early impact on me. Converse is a 115 year old brand founded by Marquis Converse in Massachusetts. Nike purchased the brand 20 years ago and since then, sales have grown to more than $2 billion. Today Converse is a creativity fuel brand with an aspiration to be a platform and champion for youth creativity and for that, they seem to have found the perfect CMO. My guest, Sejal Shalm Miller, has worked at some of the world's most creative companies, Loriel, Mattel, Estet Lauder companies and now Converse. She has been CMO for nearly two years. We recorded this conversation at the Cannes Lion International Festival Creativity, a perfect setting for a wide-ranging conversation about creativity and leadership. This is my chat with the CMO who believes her brand will be just fine if it focuses on relevance, resonance, utility, and you guessed it, creativity. Here's Sejalm. Welcome to the podcast Sejalm. Thank you for coming. Thank you. Thank you for having me. So we're here in Cannes, recording in Cannes. This is not your first rodeo at Cannes, correct? No, it's not my first, just my second. Just your second. Yep. It's your first one. 2017. So it's been a few years. So what's your impression this year? I don't know if it's impression or I came in with an intention to con this year. I really want to spend time in the Pelle in the basement to see the work. Yep. I think that's you. I spend a lot of time, you know, like all of us, your triple book to meetings, speaking at things. And this time I was really purposeful about how I wanted to spend my time. So I've definitely spent time in the Pelle in the basement to see the work. I've been impressed at how much of it is not North American. Good. Yeah. So that's been exciting. And then just really spending time with other peers, we're going through a really challenging time, I think, as CMOs and as marketers generally. And ultimately really just being able to learn. So I've been spending a lot of time in the spaces where I think I want to think about capabilities that we want to bring to the brand. So. Where have you seen or what experience have you had that's been most interesting for you so far this week? So one of the experiences that I found really inspiring was it was an intimate lunch with other CMOs. And we spent a lot of time talking about the things, I would say we were going to a place of vulnerability, like the things that are keeping us up at night with the things that we think about in terms of how do we create longevity for the brand, how do we navigate this next year, which is challenging. And I think out of that, you just realized, it doesn't matter which industry, which sector, which consumer, we're just experiencing very similar challenges at the moment. And so I think there was just a level of camaraderie and friendship that came out of that. And we all know this. It can be a little lonely as you get more senior and to have external partners and peers to talk through, I think, ideas and pressure tests and have sort of a sounding board that was really in a sort of a memorable moment for me in terms of what I'm going to take back from Khan. Well, no, I think this is one of the beauty, beauties of this festival. I mean, we go to a lot of meetings, but this one is oriented to network and to be with people and to have those kind of conversations and something about the South of France and everything that's surrounding us here. You are more open somehow. So I think it is the magic of the festival. Yeah, the sun, mother help. Yeah, the weather. Yeah, right. Exactly. Could you go there a little bit more, you know, what do you think is going on right now among with you and the peers you're talking to that make this sort of extra challenging times? I think, I mean, it's obviously the macroeconomic climate is one that makes it challenging because at least in the world of converse, our consumers are, you know, largely Gen Z, limited economic, maybe means in some instances and, you know, they're really being choiceful about where they want to spend their time and money. And so we're navigating that and as marketers, we're navigating this constant sort of toggle that we play within, which is brand performance, brand marketing, performance marketing, you know, you've probably heard a lot of us say this, they're all performance marketing levels. They all are delivering revenue at the end. And so that's one of the spaces. And then you just think about in those moments, how do you continue relevance and like resonance with the consumer? It's not about just the purchase, it's about continued engagement and continue relationship with the consumer. So those are like the three spaces that we've been spending a lot of time thinking about. What area of development do you think most CMOs are talking about? I mean, their own development is it their presence, is it their communication, is it their strategy skills, is it being close to customers? What are you hearing? I think it's two things. One is this constant idea of we're constantly learning. The role of the CMOs, just evolving daily. We know technology, our consumer sort of demands of transparency and making our brands better. And then the other piece is largely tied to like, how do I continue to inspire my team and give them a, I call it psychological safety, to push boundaries, to continue to experiment, to continue to tinker and that it's safe, even if it quote unquote fails, there's, there's no fail. We have to keep trying. So those are sort of the two themes that I've been holding on to as I sort of have conversations and are these are things that I'm thinking about. Are you seeing a lot of converse here at Cannes? I'm seeing a fair amount, yeah, I'm pretty quite happy. Yeah, what are people wearing in Cannes? A lot of low tops, not high tops, obviously the weather allows for that. And then a lot of our collab sneakers. So you know, we partner a lot with, come to gas song, Rico, come to do see, so a lot of sort of casual streetwear type. Yeah, my friend, Chip Berg became CEO of Levi's years ago and you know, he's stepping down from that now. But early in the job, I said, what's success for you, Chip? And he said, when I see more of her brand, one shirts, and I was in Europe a couple of years ago and I said, there's a lot of Levi's. One shirts. So it's working. It's working. Yep. Footwear around the street. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Now, you're about two years into your CMO role and you seem from everything I read and see about you to be really enjoying it, it seems to be a really perfect spot for you. And you've been in senior marketing roles at L'Oreal, Mattel, Estee Lauder, so amazing companies, which we'll talk a little bit about later. But how is this role different and how is this company different and why is this so right for you at this point in time? It really felt like it was the perfect opportunity, perfect brand. So one, I love the brand. I love my role. I love the people I work with. And I think there were things about Converse that I could see patterns from my prior experiences or areas that felt familiar. This idea of being an inclusive brand is really important to me and obviously as myself being a child of immigrant parents, it's a really driving force of how I want to show up with my team every day and the kind of brands I want to work on. And Converse embodies that for sure and continues to push and my team pushes me in different spaces and places. It transcends pop culture and that is a space across all the industries I've worked in that speaks to me. And so it's not just reflecting culture, but sometimes leading culture, sometimes doing a call in response to culture. And then the other areas, there is just a lot of emotion in spaces like footwear, beauty, toy. People really wrap up often, I think, their own identity with the brand and often these brands, social Converse, I heard you say Converse was one of your first brands at you. It's a question I asked in the show. What's the first brand that had impact? We'll talk about that later, but for me, it was a little bakery brand near my hometown and Converse. It's amazing. I love it. And people have Converse first stories. They remember I was 12 and I got my first pair of red chucks. It was Christmas and that is something that I think stays with a consumer well beyond the utility of the product. Like that is your loyalist fan for life and they may not ever purchase it again for themselves but they probably will have a positive association with you and think about it for the future, for kids, and gifts. And so just the idea that it served pop culture, self-expression was really important to me and this idea of it delivers on an emotional benefit in a needs date. Yes, it's footwear for your foot, but there is a signifier with Converse. It's something we can't quite put our finger on, but there is a little bit of, when you see someone wear a Converse, you kind of look down and ultimately you've already decided, oh, we probably have the same values. If you know you know, and it feels like you're part of a community. And I think that's a really special thing to be a part of. It's a statement of creativity. Yes. That's for sure. And we're at the festival of creativity, so not surprised you're seeing a lot of Converse on the street. So you mentioned your parents were immigrants, what brought them to the US? The American dream. So they, you know, growing up as a child of immigrant parents, you're told this story quite often. The number changes. It's sometimes it's six dollars, sometimes it's eight dollars, but you're reminded often that we came to this country literally with six dollars in our pocket. And so we came for the American dream and I was born in the States. You're born in the States. And so it's, I think that was a tension that they were constantly balancing, which is how do we embrace the American dream and still protect and ensure that we, like, give our culture to our children. And so you're constantly living in that sort of dichotomy of those two worlds as a kid, you know, most kids you just want to fit in. Yeah. And so it was an interesting, I think, space to be an obviously I can look back now and realize what a gift it was, but you know, when you're younger, you're like, I just want to fit in. Yeah. For sure. For sure. That's a thing too. So did you feel prepared for this role when you came over two years ago? I did. I'll tell you why. Yes. The role, the brand, so those things were obvious. I think because I navigated different industries, I was able to see some patterns or develop some frameworks. And I knew what types of brands or industries I would probably gravitate towards. So I was thoughtful about what that next step was. It wasn't just, you know, being open to it, yes, being open to an opportunity, but also a little thoughtful about what the next role should be. And I felt prepared because I've worked on brands that were legacy brands. A lot of legacy brands actually that either were in a, converse is not in a turnaround, but were in a turnaround. They were iconic. They needed to be reinvented and sort of surfed culture. And so I felt prepared, but as everyone knows, there's always a surprise as you arrive. And I think it's been exciting to sort of bring new capabilities to the brand in new ways of thinking. And the team pushes back on me as well, which is, I love the culture of the brand, which is one of creativity, self-expression. And so I felt prepared. What in your leadership style or your skill set or your superpowers, if you will, do you think are really on fire in this role? One in particular that comes top of mind, because I am still, you know, relatively new. I haven't been there for 10 years. I haven't been there for a long time. I think because I've also worked in global and geo marketing and in sales and in regional markets, like India and the Middle East, perspective is really important. And being able to already come to the table with the idea of, okay, this is really important to my stakeholder. How do we sort of come to sort of a middle ground and so that I can have the conversation that I'm looking to have, but I've already have, I already can understand their perspective because I've sat in their role. And I think that that's really important. Marketing, your influencing consumers, we're also influencing the internal organization. Sure. Sure. That's under, that's under talked about, I think. And we try to talk about that a lot in the show, you know, we talk about purpose in the show a lot. This is starts internal. And if it doesn't start internal, it's going to flop. It's not going to be authentic. So what do you, as you look back in the last two years, what are you most proud of? The one body of work that I think collectively, as an enterprise we're really excited about is the brand had been a bit quiet for the past three years. And so there was a little bit of, if you know, you know, and I just, like I said before, I love this brand. But people need to hear what this brand is about. They need to know that this is brand of creativity and self-expression. And it was our first integrated campaign in four years. So that's a pretty long time to be quiet. And really thinking about putting creators at the center. So not necessarily the brand. And so, you know, we talk a lot about where a brand of youth culture, where the zeitgeist of culture, where a brand of enablement, we have a strong platform. So why would we not put established creators like Finstables, Turnstile, Shae Julius Alexander with emerging creators who are yet unknown. But it's the power of those emerging creators that, of the established creators that brings the emerging creators along, as well as reaching our all-star community, which are a group of Gen Z creators that are either behind or in front of our camera. We give them a lot of opportunity that they would not have had otherwise. Putting them on the same playing field was really exciting. And then I think the other piece that was fun about the campaign is we sort of inverted the ad campaign. We started with six seconds, but 20 individuals, six seconds that they co-created with us. So it wasn't scripted. It was their story, how they believed, you know, they saw their craft or their Metier. And so that was a really exciting moment for the brand because we had been quiet for some time. As creative and marketers, we understand the struggle to keep up with the ever-increasing content demands. And the recent surge of interest among CMOs and chat GPT and other language learning models has added fuel to this fire. Today, businesses should embrace streamlined workflows and automated processes to step into the future of the content supply chain. Good news, Deloitte Digital can help. Their content supply chain solutions can help your business improve collaboration across teams, increase efficiency and reduce costs, all while maintaining high quality content. With Deloitte Digital Solutions, you can create more targeted and relevant content without having to leverage your internal resources. Visit DeloitteDigital.com to learn more. As a marketer, our job is to be creative. But what does that mean? I love George Lois's definition of creativity. George is of course a famous art director, and he said, creativity can solve almost any problem. The creative act, the defeat of habit by originality overcomes everything. I love it. The way I think about creativity, I love George's definition, but I think of it as fresh and unexpected ways to solve a problem or to discover new opportunities and new approaches. In the world of business, however, creativity can be a scary word, but it doesn't have to be. In the 2023 Global Marketing Trends Report, Deloitte surveyed more than 1,000 top executives from today's top brands to understand how they plan to meet their customers' needs this year. Turns out, some of these high growth brands are reimagining creativity in their organizations. At a time when we're seeing a shift from creative skills to analytical skills in marketing, these brands are often doing the opposite. And some CMOs are discovering creativity can be their superpower. Are you looking to make a meaningful impact in your organization in the year ahead? Check out Deloitte's 2023 Global Marketing Trends Report today at Deloitte.com slash Global Marketing Trends. Why was the brand quiet for four years? And what did you do to talk to your team and your leadership about not being quiet? I think the brand's the team and the brand are very humble. And it's part of the Congress ethos, which is a beautiful thing. But I think in a world that we're living in today with Gen Z, they're just so active. And they are so loud about their opinions and thoughts that I'm like, this is a time for us to have a calling response. And I think if we're a brand of creativity, we also need to show our creativity and exemplify that. It felt like it was the right time to sort of start to have that conversation. What kind of reaction? Lots of excitement. And we can see that, you know, you know, exactly, there's excitement and there's a commitment to playing in this basis that our consumers play in. And that means like outsized presence in all the platforms because they are on multiple. And I think that's another important thing in that social ecosystem. You've got to experiment and you've got to play and it's okay to be wrong. There is no wrong it. You move, you move past it, but you've got to show that you're not perfect as a brand. And it's like progress over perfection. And they'll go with you. Yeah. How do you establish a culture internally where everyone's okay with that? No, not being perfect, moving fast, doing new things like you just did. I could to think one psychological safety, I think, is really important. And when I say that, it can be about how you present yourself in the world, depending what community you come from, but it's also in when we actually try and it doesn't work that it's okay. We're going to figure this out together. It's not sort of, we're sitting on separate sides of the table. The second piece is, we used to call them, well, I used to call them Martini Glass sessions. We're looking for three olives. And basically we're starting at the top of the Martini Glass and it, we just did want a session. It's a big idea session. Anything goes. We're going to tell you the amount of energy I got out of that room. Each team had three minutes to pitch an idea, 20 ideas from the team, anything goes and we're going to fund some of those ideas. And we sort of curated down to five ideas that we thought were really interesting. And the team came back and said, we've got to do more of this. This was fun. And I think creating those environments is really important. What you would never brand like yours about creativity and self-expression, do you have guardrails? I mean, you know, that's a topic we hear a lot in this show because you want to give your brand over to your team, to your consumers. But that can, you know, you can sometimes lose sight of the brand you're trying to build. So how do you think about that? That's a great question. So we are Canvas. We like to say that of creativity and self-expression, of youth progress. And there are spaces that, you know, as a brand, I'm not comfortable with, where anything that would perhaps threaten a consumer safety or a space that would make them feel excluded. Like, we have values that we want to stand by and inclusivity is one of our core tenants. So yes, be bold, yes, be irreverent, yes, be raw, you can still be respectful and kind. And so it's a tough space to navigate, but we do have sort of soft guardrails. Yeah. Do you have those written down or is it just in the culture or how do you make it live so that people internalize it in their behavior? Yeah, it's not written down. It is cultural. We have, we have, we have definitely started to be in a space where if you're not sure, let's just talk about it. And we have a group of sort of leaders that will go to to make sure that, are we being too conservative? Are we not being risky enough or is this a space that, you know what, it's not our story to tell. And I think that that is the challenging space to be in because you want to play where they play and you've got to figure out what's the right story for your brand and what are the stories that your brand should be telling and sharing. So yeah, we do talk a lot about it, but it's not really. It's a great question. What's your greatest challenge right now? Two years in the job, made progress great campaigns out there. If you had to boil it down to one challenge, what would it be? I think the one space that I am, I don't know if it's a challenge, but it might be my own perspective. Just thinking about what's next, like what's, how are we raising the bar for the brand? And I don't mean, like, what are the new spaces and places that we're going to play in that is going to surprise our consumer. And I came from an organization in Dorial and I had a leader where we're constantly reinventing the next story that we're going to tell. And so this constant idea of tinkering, experimenting, that's the space that, it doesn't keep me up at night. It excites me, but is where I spent a lot of my time thinking about it. So you've worked for all these great companies and now you're in the Nike family for two years. What's that been like? I mean, what have you learned from being under the Nike umbrella? I don't know how much interaction you have with the Nike folks, but speak a bit about that. Yeah, you know, as a marketer, I always admired Nike, you all, you, you, anything that you worked on, you, you look at their website, you look at the work that you're just like, wow, I wish I could work for this brand. And then you're right. And it is incredible. And I do have interaction with the Nike team. I think one of the things that surprises me, it's just like any other space in that, you know, there are things that we're trying to figure out, Nike and Converse and Jordan, we're all trying to figure out sort of what's the next technology, what's the next space that we want to play in. And so it's not all figured out. It's not, but it is exciting to be in a place where you have really imaginative storytellers, people are willing to take risks, people are willing to take stands. You've seen Nike do that in the past. And that's an inclusive use core, truly core to the ink. I have certainly felt included, recognized, valued in ways that I may not have always felt at some, in other moments in my career. So it's been a really exciting space. But we're not perfect. We're figuring it out. Yeah. Yeah. On the show, I asked people what's the first brand they remember making an impact on them. And Nike is the most frequently cited brand. I can see that. And it's a lot of just what they put out there, it inspires people, lifts them up, raises their ambition, motivates them, and certainly it's, I mean, it's played a role in all of our lives. Yeah. They do a really great job, or I guess I should say, we have a feel, like feel, and then what's the do? Yeah. So I need to make you feel something first, and then do as secondary. Yeah. Yeah. Now I've heard you say some very thoughtful things about being a CMO, and you've already been saying many thoughtful things about being a CMO, but I'd like to share a few of them back to you. Okay. For some discussion. And the first one is you talk about curiosity and creativity, being highly related, maybe even causal. So it's tough to be creative if you're not curious, right? So they are highly related. Why is this such a strong conviction of yours? How did that develop? I've personally always been really curious. It's a large part, lived in multiple countries and worked at different companies and worked on different brands, worked with different consumers. It feeds me, and if we, like as I look at a lot of the research, and as I am a mom of two small kids as well, curiosity and creativity have a very strong link and creativity actually is probably, which is interesting. It's evolved since when we were kids or when I was a kid, creativity is one of the most important life skills, not just by Gen Z, educators, parents, society at large, and creativity, I think sometimes has this, we think only the arts or we think only me, but it is creative problem solving, it is creatively looking at a challenge and saying, okay, why isn't there a solution for this? I'm going to write, we think about all the entrepreneurs, entrepreneurs out there. And so I think they are highly connected. I think it's difficult to be a creative if you're not putting yourself out in the world. And so for, I was drawn to converse because of that, I felt really close to my personal values as well. And so yeah, it's... Have you had a muse or a mentor or an inspirational creativity in your career that particularly stands out? I will say, L'Oreal, one of the things, and it's a French company, right, in France, and I spent some time in France, this idea of going to the museum, going outside to listen to music, walking through, I remember being a marketing manager and my leader at the time, she was French, and she's like, on the weekends or in your free time, that's work. That's your work. Your work is to learn about a new artist, listen to new music, try a new cuisine. This idea of like, I would say challenging your senses was really integral to how they raised sort of marketers in the company, and it's something I took with me in other places and spaces, and I think just thinking about your work outside of your work, because when you're a marketer, you're kind of your cultural anthropologist and a futurist. So if you don't do those things, I don't know how you can stay connected to culture and surf pop culture and play back culture to the youth. So it's a really important part of sort of my practice, if you will. Yeah. We had a guest, we recorded a guest in the show just yesterday, who has a very deliberate and intentional rhythm of pulling his team together and going out and doing something creative together. And I mean, I tried to do that when I was CMO, I wasn't as intentional and rhythmic as this person was. So I took that away saying, that's a really good practice, because it has all sorts of things. It does. It works on many levels. The emotional. I mean, the serratote, all the things, and then being with others and seeing the same thing differently and talking about it, I think is a really powerful sort of outcome. Second thing I've heard you discuss that I want to kind of unpack, be unafraid to evolve a legacy. And you've worked with a lot of legacy companies, you already referred to that. And you're kind of doing that. It sounds like for this 115 year old brand, respecting where it's been, but preparing it for the future. It's a lot easier said than done. I've tried it on many brands and some success with some not. So what have you learned about evolving a legacy, how to approach that, how to respect the past, but not be constrained by it. So what are your principles as you approach something like that, and you've had experience with lots of legacy brands? Start from the archives. So honor and respect the past and be curious about the past. And I've found that when I have spent time with the archivist or spent time in the archives, I've been so surprised and actually some of our greatest ideas have come from that because you realize, wow, we were doing that, but maybe it wasn't the right time. Maybe it wasn't the right moment. Maybe we didn't make it as important as it should have been. So starting with the equity and the DNA of the brand and honoring that and owning it. And the second piece is, how do you twist that, or how do you add modernity to that, to think about what that next bridge is for the current consumer. And so, you know, I'll take, in this case, Barbie, for example, Barbie had all these careers, but guess what? Girls, girls say, don't just want to be a nurse and a ballerina. And so that really set us on this trajectory of, well, why not a judge and why not a video gamer and why not a scientist and why not a doctor? And so evolving something from the past and making more modern the bodies, we know we're a challenge. So how do we think about beyond the blonde hair, blue eyed iconic Barbie, who is true and core to the heritage of the brand, but how do we evolve that brand in terms of skin tone, ethnicity, representation, differently abled, I mean, the list goes on in different body types. And I think, you know, at Converse, similarly, we have a history in skate, basketball, obviously, creativity, music, art, sport, style. I mean, we were sort of organically adopted, but we were starting to see, you know, we've just launched a few products that are really attached to basketball and skate culture. And now we're looking at the intersection between skate and basketball and taking influences from both sports and adding that modernity, bringing back things from the vault. So it's very much sort of, you've got to be able to identify the areas that could have relevance today. And I think that's when you have the most power in terms of evolving. I love where you start on this. Go to the archives. And you know what, when you go to the archives and you do that as a team, it's a really fun exercise. It's super fun. It's really fun. When I was, my first assignment outside of Cincinnati at PNG was when we acquired Cover Girl, I was sent there to be the marketing director over Cover Girl and the brand wasn't growing. It was getting a lot of pressure from Cincinnati to grow the brand. I was an outsider coming in, wasn't trusted. But one of the first things I did was get the team together and say, let's just walk back to the founding of the brand and just look at everything and spend a day just going into the archives, the ads we did, the products we came out with, the tone of voice we had, the models we hired. And our behavior today, true to those principles, not the tactics, but the principles. And it was very powerful. And I kind of instantly got trusted because you showed that you respected and honored the brand. Even if you were a new outsider coming in for, yeah. So I want to start. I want to talk about an outsider's perspective. That's the next story. I want to explain. I've heard you talk about how important it is to keep an outsider's perspective. I totally agree with that. You're two years in the job. The longer in the job comes a little harder to do that. So what are your practices or your rituals to keep that outsider's perspective the longer you're in the job? So I wish maybe it's not groundbreaking, but one of my practices is I do keep a journal. And in that journal, every time I have an idea and it's by my nightstand, I write a journal. And after about a few months, I kind of go back and revisit, and it's basically ideas that I have for the brand. And I just did it yesterday, and I'm like, oh, that's interesting. That's on the list because that's on my mind right now. Or that's interesting that I'm finally moving forward something that I had thought about two years ago. Now, it wasn't the right time then, or we didn't have the capacity, all the things that make that a reality. But it is a practice, and I find it really helpful because it either validates what I'm working on now because clearly it was something that struck me, and it's still striking me that tells me there's got right in that there's something there, and it lets me reevaluate because the consumer does move fast and our brands are moving fast like, okay, not so relevant anymore. I don't feel like I missed that wave. That's okay. It's okay that we didn't do that activation or that we didn't play in that space because it has evolved. And it's okay. So when did most of those ideas come to you? Is it all times of the day, or? It's often it. Yeah, it's interesting. I said I had two small kids, so it's usually at night after everyone's gone to bed and there's some quiet and then commuting time. It's basically time that I have to myself. A lot of time. Yeah, quite a time. A lot of time. Yeah, it's a good ritual. My daughter got me a book for my birthday recently that's a five year journal of a line a day. Impressive. It's kind of nice discipline. Yeah. So I now take it with me and try to, at the end of the day, what was the line of the day? And sometimes I go back if I miss a day or two and think about what was it about that day? It's great. So I want to remember. Consumers, you said consumers demand brands take a stance and issues important to them. That's gotten tricky. It's always been tricky, but I think especially tricky over the last few months, but I would suspect your consumers, younger, creative, inclusive, they still want you to be about the issues they care about. So how are you thinking about that and how are you talking about that with your team these days? Okay. So let's take, I mean, sustainability is a big one. And our brand is not putting our head in the sand and the environment is challenging to navigate in that. What you can say about what you're doing is challenging legislatively, but it's not stopping us from making the improvements we need to make to the product. And I find that really encouraging. And so we're still improving our product, even if those stories are not consumer facing, because we think it's the right thing to do. It's the right thing to do. And we're trying to find where we can talk about that. And you know, Converse has had a history of upcycling where we take old materials and then we take old denim, we take old velvet and we bring them back to life. They're pre-loved, pre-discarded. And so this idea of progress over perfection, we don't have it figured out and I'm not going to pretend that we have it fully figured out, but we are making strides to move that forward. And when we're ready to talk about it more widely, we will. But I think that I find really encouraging and our consumer has given us credit for when we do that. And I think these sense, okay, they're trying. And it's okay to not be perfect and we might fail a little bit. Now I want to reflect on your career path a bit more and you started in banking, right? And then you work for some of the most creative companies in the world, Mattel, L'Oreal, Estee Lauder, and now of course Converse, Slash, Nike. What have you learned about building a culture that is sustained, that is sort of centered on creativity? Because I would say all those companies have a long history of creativity, they're known for it. Every company has ups and downs, but they've laced it. And they all have pretty amazing equities. So what have you learned about building a creative culture? Here we are, Ken, right? This is the whole theme. First is, as a marketer, you are the voice of the consumer. And so being fiercely loyal to the consumer and curious about the consumer. And you know, in CPG, or I call beauty, CPG and Jason, we talk a lot about the needs and the wants, but I like take it another step forward, which is their hopes and their dreams. And that's where you start to think about innovation. It's where you start to think about creativity, new spaces and places. The other base is, and I've talked about this before, but this idea of being able to come to the table with any idea. It's okay if it's not the right moment or the right time, but being able to come to the table with that idea. And then the last piece, which is not obvious when I go back to my experience of financial services, understand the business, understand how your company, how your brand, how the product that you deliver makes revenue, understand the economics of the business that you're in, because a large part of marketing is helping to drive revenue and future value creation. Not just for the consumer, but also for your business. And so I think that is a really important underpinning that we sometimes lose sight of when we're talking about creativity, but it's critical because those are the guardrails sometimes or the constraints against which you're operating. No, it's like, I want to punctuate all of that, but especially that last point, because it's an area that isn't always obvious. But if you don't understand the business model, where revenue comes from, as you say, how economic value is created, and to really think about that with your team, what's our role in that? And so we've spent some time with our finance partner. Yeah, no for sure. Understand the P&L beyond the marketing, contribution line, right? Think about how we actually deliver EBITDA at the end of the day. Think about your portfolio, new consumers to the brand, new audiences, new use cases. Yeah. Now, we're going to move to the creative brief. Okay. It's going to be extra creative today because we're in Can. What's the first brand you remember making a creative impact on you? Creative impact. Yeah. Something that inspired your creativity. Oh my gosh. You're going to, we're going to laugh, fashion plates. Oh, okay. Go there. I'm going to go there. So do you, I don't know if you remember them, instead of creative impact. Yeah. They're, they're these tiles and you could pick the face, the top, the bottom, the shoes, and you, every, you could create your own look and you could style it the way you wanted. And it, it comes to mind because I just bought them for my daughter, actually. And she loves it because again, it gets back to self-expression and you can sort of imagine a personality or sort of an identity with that. But yeah, that's the first sort of brand that had a creative impact. So if I asked a question, different way, which one had an impact on you? What's the first brand you remember having an impact on you? What would that be? It'll sound a little bit more serious, but it's Barbie and specifically the Barbie Dreamhouse. And I shared earlier when you're, when I grew up in a modest home, that was a big purchase. It was a really big purchase. I was six, I had one Barbie, one Ken, that's all I could have, but I got the Dreamhouse. And I remember thinking, it was my first moment of, oh, like, access and inclusion. So I'll take the kids down the street, might actually want to come and play because I've got the Dreamhouse. And it's this idea of, oh, I've arrived and this is, I'm, I'm part of something. And that was a really special moment because I remember feeling like, okay, this is a special gift. And this is sort of a moment that would not, that's not normal and different and special. Now, wonder, you want to work in Mattel and then we added the diversity in the body. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. What was your favorite room in that Dreamhouse? It's so funny. The third floor, because you had to pull the elevator in the bedroom. I mean, this is before all the mechanics that we have now, but it was a string. It was like a pulley system that you had to pull to the third floor. But yeah, it was a, it's a great unlock of imagination. Yeah. Yeah. What creative campaign in your whole career that you've been involved with? Are you most proud of or it's most meaningful to you? Probably imagine the possibilities for Barbie. And I say that because the brand was going through a really challenging time, there's a lot of skepticism, moms didn't feel great about their purchase. Girls wanted it, but moms didn't feel great about the purchase. And being able to put the girls at the heart of the story, you can have your opinion about Barbie, but it's a little girl and it's her imagination and her vision of herself. And that's really a hard thing to argue with. And I think it really shifted the conversation from the sort of the negative conversation around Barbie about her body or being pink or superficial and really talking about the emotional benefit, the unlock it provides to children and this idea of self-esteem and confidence. And that was a really compelling moment. How do you work on your creativity? You talk about the outsider's perspective and visiting different places. What else are your practices or rituals to ensure that you stay creative? Yeah. One of the other things that I try to embrace is spending time with, we have Gen Z employees at the company and I have found that when you start to really spend time with them one on one, not where they're in a room and representing and maybe they're managers presenting an idea, but really talking to them about what do you think, where do you think we should go? It's been really inspiring because they are employee, they're closest to our brand and reflect the audience that we serve. And those have been sort of the most meaningful conversations I've had lately, which is also an internal lens, but it's a lens of also our consumer. Sure. What are some of the themes you're here when you talk to them one on one? More in social. I would say, what can we do to be more bold, say the thing that no one else will say? I think Gen Z at times is often told, be patient, your time will come, but they're times now. Right. So how can you show up as a brand as an ally for them? I think it's really important. Who are some creative inspirations for you? I mean, there's brands, certainly, that have been inspiring, I mean, they're iconic brands that we all have had a relationship with, Coca-Cola, Apple, Nike. And then I think in this space of artists, a lot of the contemporary modern artists who did the thing that others would say, well, I could have done that, but you didn't. So I think a lot of our modernists and contemporary artists. And then lastly, most recently, I think a lot about the new genre of music that's coming out. And more and more, we've all talked about punk rock, but Afro beats, Bollywood, there's great K-pop, there's great music actually coming out of China. And I think that that is another space that when you think about inclusivity, diversity, creativity, curiosity, can be really exciting. Yeah. That sounds great. I also think there's so many great storytelling examples out there with the explosion of streaming. And I'm always battling with what do I want to watch tonight, and I mean, I could spend my whole life doing that, but it's so inspiring. It is very inspiring, especially because now you can see stories about cultures that I didn't have this inside lens into, and it's completely accessible if you're curious. Now I know we're midweek in Cannes, and you're having a great time, I can tell. What are you going to say to your team when you go back, or what are you going to do with your team? Anything that you're wrote down, and your little idea book, or a note, because I think it's interesting when you re-enter an experience like this. You have a lot of things in your head. Your team largely didn't experience it with you personally. So I think it's always interesting to think about the first 48 hours when we're back. So how are you thinking about that when you return? I probably jumped the gun because I was so excited. I was like, let's go. We're moving forward with this one idea that we have, and I could feel the energy back from the team, which is, okay, you don't need to review it, we're good, just go. I think there is a debrief, for sure, planned in my mind with the team on the new spaces that we haven't discussed, that I want us to start to explore a bit of, okay, let's push the button, because I was thinking. We say to the team, for the small things go fast, but for the big things, slow down and take your time, and I had slowed down, and now that I've been here, it's a go. One, we're going to see this. Potentially in two years, one of them. One of them sooner, and then really just sharing some of the work that I have seen, specifically giving them access to the virtual view of the work, because a lot of the work, even us as marketers, that we see is very North American focused, and the work that often does when is coming from Southeast Asia, is coming from the African continent, and I want them to see that work to be inspired, because that's what's been sort of really exciting. You forget, you can sort of end up in your bubble. Yeah. Who has been the most inspiring person in your life? My mom. So she shares the same birthday as Barbie, which is really funny, it's March 9th. She passed away in 2012, but if you've got to know her by the end of this session, Jim, she would know your favorite food, what gets you excited at the end of the day. She's just one of those people who really wanted to connect with people, and how can I make you happy in the most generous, simple way. So she definitely would have made your favorite meal by the end of this podcast, but inspired me. I would like that. I think just optimistic, but I called her, she was a realistic optimist. And I think that is inspiring, because it's push, dream, and also recognize the reality in which you live in. And I think that that was really inspiring, because it's a large part, I think, of how I am where I am today. We'll say, Joel, I did not know your mom, but I think you embody a lot of those characteristics. Thank you. Thank you. That was my conversation with Sejal, three takeaways from this one, if you're a business brand in life. The first one, this was a beautiful lesson on how to bring out the creativity of your team. Sejal is beautiful at maximizing her team's creative effectiveness. She takes time for off-sights, for brainstorming. They do cultural visits. They do lots of things to stimulate their imagination and their creativity. Second lesson, I love the saying, make sure small things go fast in your marketing, but big things slow down and think about them. So this is a culture that is fast and on top of culture, but when there's something big, that's going to affect the brand and the arc of the brand, they take their time to think it through. And last takeaway, beautiful class on what the role of the CMO and the scope of the CMO should be. Sejal talked about being a cultural anthropologist, being a futurist, understanding what drives the business and always keeping an outsider's perspective, even if you're years into the job. That's it for this episode of the CMO podcast. 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