Dame/Harden Updates & Mavs Make Some Moves

Welcome back to another episode of the crossover podcast I'm Rohan, not really going today by not one, but two sports illustrated senior writers, New York Times bestselling author of the book, Bloody in the Garden, Chris Herring, and Longtime Sports Illustrated Senior Writer, Chris Mannix, guys, it's been an off season that I think now is going to be defined by Damien Lillard as we kind of just wait around and see what's going to happen with Dame. That's really I think the big storyline in the NBA at the moment. So it's only right to start there. I'd say the latest news this week regarding Dame being his agent, Aaron Goodwin, essentially going around telling teams, Dame wants to be in Miami period. We're now starting to get these reports. Wood, Dame report, if he goes to another team, our other team is going to step up and make big offers. Mannix, I'll start with you. I think for the most part, the way Dame's agent's handled this is par for the course in terms of these superstar trade requests. But what do you think of the efforts? Dame is making to go to Miami and do you really think it is only Miami or bus for him? Well, Aaron Goodwin is doing his job in this situation. He's doing what his client wants and his client wants to play for the Miami Heat. So he's been pretty brazen about it. I'm not sure that I would be as public as Aaron Goodwin has been about all this, but he's trying to accomplish what his client wants to have accomplished. Now the back half of that question is, would Dame and Lillard not report or would Dame and Lillard mope or would he be the unhappy player that Aaron Goodwin is spinning would be the case if Lillard was traded. That I'm less certain about. I've read some of the reporting about how Lillard wouldn't show and he'd be disgruntled. That just doesn't line up with everything I know about Damien Lillard. I mean, Damien Lillard is, you know, he's the ultimate competitor. He's the kind of guy that wherever he's playing, he's going to try to win games. And I just can't envision a scenario where Lillard is, you know, operating like James Hardin where he's effectively throwing up a white flag or, you know, doing what Kyrie Irving did in Brooklyn and saying, get me out of here or else it's going to go bad. Especially if he's traded to a contender. I mean, if Lillard is traded to Philadelphia where he's partner with Joelle and bead, he's going to be fine. If he's traded to Boston and his partner and would Jason Tatum and Jaylen Brown, he's going to be fine. I mean, I have no doubt and I've reported this along with everybody else that that Miami is Damien Lillard's preferred destination. But the idea that he, you know, would, you know, would not reports or, you know, sabotage a team season. That just isn't the Damien Lillard that I've covered over the years. And it's not the kind of player I think he would be. So, you know, we can get into what the Blazers are doing with all this and that end of it. But as far as Lillard goes, I think he and his agent go do everything they can to push a deal to Miami. But I don't, if it goes a different direction, I don't believe Damien Lillard would, you know, blow up his new situation just to be there. Haring, I want to go to you. I got some texts from a friend this week who said you were just killing the heat on the Monday pod. So now, you know, I've been tasked to hold your feet to the fire a little bit as you know, text outside the knee this week. But Haring, here's a question I have for you because to Manix's point, I also agree. I have a hard time believing that if Damien Lillard's traded to a good team, he's going to just not show up to practice, not report. He's always been the kind of player that wants to play, et cetera. My question is, let's say the heat are able to offer up to three unprotected first round picks. Maybe they're even so how would I able to get a fourth by sending Tyler Hero to a 13? I know you guys ran through some other options other than Miami on the Monday pod, but I guess my question for you, Haring, is what is a hypothetical better trade for the Blazers? What teams should they engage with that you think they could get a better return than they might get from Miami, which also has an incentive to go out and do this and maybe pay more than other teams are willing to pay. Is it Tyrese Maxx? Is he that valuable? What is the realistic package you see that could be an offer that would include three or four unprotected first? I mean, me personally, yeah, I think it's just easier to... It's a little bit easier for me to theorize around Maxxie, who I think if he was an all-star and maybe all NBA is a bridge too far for next year, but down the line, I mean, I think the craziest thing is that Maxxie is 22, so it's... I mean, that's someone that you can plug into that core, and I granted it would be a pretty small core of guys that you've got, and you probably need to offload someone like Simon's at that point if you're going to be that small, but whatever. For me, especially given that we don't know what Miami's picks are gonna look like and all sorts of other stuff, I would rather have a bonafide guy, and then whatever picks come with that, if it's a straight-up deal, if it is something where you're trying to get a third team involved beyond just Philly, it's just weird for me, and I can't remember too many situations off the top of my head where we're watching someone of Lillard's stature move on to another team when the best player asset that a team was even throwing out there was a guy that the other team didn't want. I really can't think of many of those, so from that standpoint, Philly makes more sense just because their headliner makes more sense, and I think that if another team is desperate enough, which, who knows whether they will be, if Dame's agent, or if Dame himself is kind of making it more difficult for teams to want to go all in here, but, you know, to me, it wouldn't be that surprising if some team stood up and said, let's do this because Chris is absolutely right. Dame, this would be a dog changing its spots at this point in his career. Dame has been maybe the most professional guy on the league. I mean, I think people would put stuff up there too as far as the way he's dealt with his team. I don't remember Dame throwing a mouthguard into the stands or anything like that, but just as far as the management of the team given his stature relative to everybody else, he's generally said all the right things. He's been all in up until this very point for the most part. So the idea that all of a sudden going to a team that is better than the one he just left is going to rile him to where he doesn't want to play. I mean, make it make sense to me. I understand that he wants to go where he wants to go, but it's not that he's in the last year of a deal here, which that was Kawai's situation, and a team still went in on that and won a championship. This is literally having a long runway here. Coming off the best season of his career arguably, I absolutely think that it could be Philly. I think that Brooklyn, if they really wanted to get serious about it, could make an offer like that. We'd have to see who else would get involved, but I mean, I think that there are, it's within the realm of possibility, the other team that we talked about a little bit, it would certainly not be from a pickstamp point because they just don't have them to deal, but another team that would have an interesting asset if they so chose to go in that direction would be Minnesota from the standpoint of Colonel Anthony Towns, who I think that for all the youth and talent that Portland is going to have in the next few weeks, months, Towns would give you a big instead of a smaller and other wing for what we've talked about. It's kind of a smallish backward if they get someone like Maxi. You plug Damien Lillard into Minnesota, and yeah, he might not want to live in Minnesota relative to Miami or even Philly, but that is a team that all of a sudden with Anthony Edwards, with a backstop like Rudy O'Bare defensively, and depending on who they don't have to deal, if it's McDaniels on the wing defensively, Nas Reed, they just brought back. There's talent there. There's certainly talent there, and that's a team that already has kind of cast the first stone from an all-in standpoint, and this would be, this would be sensible from the standpoint of saying, okay, we saw enough of last year to realize it probably won't work, but this would be a way to transition the team differently and put it on a much faster timeline. I mean, let me just add a couple things to that. One, I don't know why Joe Kronin is meeting with Lillard's agent. I don't know what, like this is now, whether we like it or not, this has become adversarial. There's no real going back for Damien Lillard and Portland. So if you're Joe Kronin, you can't really care what Lillard wants out of his next team or what Lillard wants in a trade. Your only objective is to get the best possible package back in return for Lillard. That's got to be it. If you have to trade him to Siberia, that's kind of the way it goes. He wants to be traded. He's got four years left in his contract. You have an opportunity now to reshape your roster with the kind of young assets that Oklahoma City used to reshape. It's roster that Brooklyn used to make deals for the Kevin Durant swap. You've got a chance here to do it. I don't really, the statement from Aaron Goodwin about how he hopes that Joe and Miami Heat officials are going to get together at Summer League and talk about that. Obviously, Miami doesn't have what Portland wants. If they did, this deal would be done already. So if you're Joe Kronin, you've got to just remain locked in on what's important to the Portland Trail Blazers. I think the league has to look at this as well. This is becoming a big problem for them. You know, where you have players signing long-term contracts and then immediately going, I don't want to be here anymore. I mean, Kevin Durant didn't play a single minute for the nets on his new deal before he asked out of Brooklyn. I know Bradley Beale's a little bit different. He had a no trade clause, but it wasn't him necessarily pushing for the deal. It was new owner or new management in Washington, but he gets a $250 million deal and he's navigating where he's going to be traded a year later. Now you have Damien Lillard, and I'm a huge Lillard guy, but Lillard, if he wanted control of his future, he didn't have to sign that contract extension. He could have been out of his contract in 2024 with a lot of room to pick and choose his team. He didn't want it because he's going to be guaranteed $120 million plus on the back end of that deal. So I just think it's just a tough look for the NBA to have guys sign these contracts and then after barely playing a minute on them, you know, decided they don't want to be with that team anymore and then dictating where they want to go and doing stuff like this. I just think that's something that has now graduated to a level where Adam Silver needs to publicly weigh in on and do something about because it's getting it's getting pretty crazy out there. Lillard, Lillard kind of is the, in a way, the straw that broke the camel's back because he does have four years left in his contract and he is not, there's not just reporting that he really wants to be in one place. There's his agent out there saying specifically, he only wants to go to Miami. So I just think it's a bad look for the NBA to have stuff like this happening. Yeah, all right. So a lot that I want to touch on. First, I do wonder if Lillard's contract works for the Blazers or against them a tiny bit only because as a man excited, those last two years, when I think he's going to be 35 and 36 at least in the years of those deal, are there do smaller market teams have the appetite? You know, would a Minnesota have the appetite to pay that money when you have the go bear contract and Anthony Edwards extension coming up and you have the second apron, right? So I think that it makes it difficult for a lot of teams. That's why if you're a team like, you know, Utah or Minnesota, why I think it's not as simple, even Boston, who's been talked about and we can compare Boston's package to Miami's package without Jalen Brown. I think they're, I don't know that Boston's necessarily better. Are they going to want to be a second tax apron team since some of their moves and for agency suggests they would not as soon as Lillard's trade request goes, I'm still on a case by case basis with a lot of these like you brought up Bradley Beale. We were all calling for the Wizards to trade Bradley Beale for a long time. Their own fans, one of them to trade Bradley Beale by this point, the mistake they made was giving them a no trade clause that we all criticize at the time. Kevin Durant, listen, no defense there. That entire net situation was ridiculous from start to finish. I mean, Damien Lillard, I think, is in a similar position where a lot of people, including some Blazer fans, were like ready for him to move on somewhere else, right? I think people just don't really like the way he's handled it, but a lot of people have been asking for him to be on a different team for a long time. I want to ask you because Wode reported that the heat's offer is quote-unquote still in the lead, but the Blazers are kind of taking their time. Seeing who can top it, is there a team that you think realistically beats it? Because, you know, Herring brought up towns to the wolves who want to put Damien with Anthony Edwards. Like I said, are they ready to baby go into the second apron? I think there are a lot of teams that at first blush makes sense when you kind of dive deeper into it, it becomes difficult for a lot of reasons. Like, who is the team that realistically you think can put together an offer better than Miami's? I think there are a lot of teams that can put together offers better than Miami. I'll name three in the North East. Philadelphia, if they put Tyrese Maxi in the deal, they could best probably any offer from Miami. They could also, you know, plus up that offer if they get draft capital back for James Hardin. So, I think the Sixers have an opening. I think Boston, as I mentioned, has an opening. The Celtics, and I don't necessarily have to do it by trading Jalen Brown. I don't, they wouldn't trade Jalen Brown. I do like that. So let's talk about that because I saw, is it bragging and Robert Williams? Like the Celtics cannot get it to work. It'd have to be, it'd be Derek White would have to be in it. Derek White got 18 million on his contract. He'd have to be included in it. So now we're talking, the Celtics are making a major adjustment to their team, which I don't, I'm not saying they wouldn't be better, but Derek White is on one of the best contracts in the NBA. And I think part of the reason you move on from Marcus Harding is you have Derek White there as it's a way player. Do you think Boston A would be willing to pay into the second apron for Dame and B can, is that Derek White centered trade better than one that has more draft capital from Miami? Because I think those are comparable. Well, you also have to consider the draft capital in Boston too. I mean, the Celtics have a Warriors pick next year plus all their draft capital moving forward. They have more draft assets than the, than the, than he do. So they, they can make a player offer and a draft pick offer. I think the, what they don't have, I mean, whatever you think of Tyler Hero, he's a good player. He's a former six man of the year. You know, more offensive oriented and certainly his stock has dipped because Miami was really successful without him in, in the playoffs this past year, but he's still a very good player. I don't think the Celtics have a guy like that they could throw in. Robert Williams is still young. You know, he's one of the best defensive bigs in the NBA. You could do that. Peyton Pritchard, I think has value as a young player. And the Celtics could throw a ton of draft picks, you know, at, at Portland as well. The, the, the white thing is where it gets difficult because Derek White is valuable to them. In an ideal world, they wouldn't give up Derek White in a trade like that. But to make the money work, you, you really would have to in that situation. So would they spend into the second apron? If you asked me a couple of little weeks ago, I probably would have said yes, but they just made a financial move with Grant Williams, where they, you know, one of the reasons they didn't pay him was because they would be in the second apron. If they had given Grant Williams that four year, $54 million contract, the Dallas was willing to give. So I think there are some financial concerns in Boston. But I don't know, push comes the shove. If they have an opportunity and they, they believe Lillard would want to be there, I think they'd do it. I think they would do it. I, I just think that's, you look at the way they've come up short in recent years. Yeah, you lose a lot defensively. And you've already lost a lot defensively with Marcus Smart going out with Grant Williams going out. But, you know, they've come up short because they haven't been able to generate offense. You know, in the finals, they came up short because Jason Tatum was just exhausted a year and a half ago. In the conference finals, this past year, you know, Tatum gets hurt in game seven. They can't come up with enough offense without him. Like, Damien Lillard solves that problem. Like, I know he hasn't advanced past the conference finals himself. But I think we'd all agree. He's a playoff performer. Like he's, he's someone built for the postseason. So I think that, you know, if it came down to it, if it's like Derek White, Robert Williams, draft capital, and that's the, the, the crux of the deal, I think they do it. I just think they, the opportunity to get a guy like that and fit him into your championship window is, is really small. I don't disagree. I just think it's, it's, it's interesting to me. Like, I, I think there's a good argument for why that's a, a worthy package. I just, the way people talk about the heat offers, like this would be one of the worst trades ever, et cetera, et cetera. I don't think that this Boston one is, is radically different, especially when, you know, one of the, they, one of the reasons I think Derek White is a better player than Tyler here. I'm not going to argue that. But I think one issue that these teams have with Portland is the one position they're loaded at is guard. They have scooped, they have Simon's, they have shade and sharp. So even Derek White, as good of a player he is, as good of a contract as he's on a little less value to Portland. But you're doing, Rowan, you're doing, you're doing what the, like, use the net as an example. Like they have now have a surplus of wings there. Like, you can never have enough guys that people want, right? So like, if the, use the Sixers and Tyrese Maxis example, I'm not sure Tyrese Maxi fits in with what Portland is doing. If they're going to keep Anthony Simon's, keep scoop and build around those two guys. But if you have Tyrese Maxi and you pay him, uh, somebody's going to want, we're going to want him, you know, in the next, yeah, you know, next year. So it's the same thing. Like, you know, I mean, look, after the sun's acquired McKayla Bridges, like how many teams are offering three, four first round picks to get him? How many teams are going to offer multiple first round picks to get, uh, to get something like Dorian Finney Smith? Like you, you, you make the deal for talent now desirable talent and then you figure the rest out later. I don't disagree. I think that's a fair point. I, I just look at it as I think Philly and Brooklyn are the real teams that can make Miami sweat here. I think more than any others. I think Maxi would be kind of the best player. Portland could acquire in this trade, even considering who they have in the back court. Um, and Brooklyn, the thing about Brooklyn for me is, is that are they ready to kind of make an all in move like that? Because they have some valuable picks that could be coming to them via Phoenix at the back half of this decade. So I'll ask you that, Haring, if you were the net is, is Lillard the type of player you go for now, someone in his mid 30s trying to win right now? Or do you trying to see out this build a little bit that still has some players and kind of a earlier stage in their career? Uh, I mean, I think until honestly, I think it's bad timing for the nets to go in with that, me personally. Right. Until you have the Ben Simmons situation resolved, you move on from him, you get him back and see that he's capable of playing at a high level again, which that's a huge if we don't know that. Um, you know, I don't think that you can pair Lillard with Michele Bridges really. I mean, we'd have to see who they're even giving up. I imagine the nets would love to be able to hold him out of that conversation and try to just lean on the picks they have. It just kind of seems like a team that's a little bit too young to me, around Lillard. It's going to be a talented team. And I think it would be exciting from the standpoint just to see Lillard in a new uniform in a big market, which we've never seen before for him. But I don't think that there it seems like a little bit too early and a little bit too, a little bit too early for the franchise for where they're at. Also, I wouldn't mind. I wouldn't be surprised if they're a little bit kind of exhausted of just kind of dealing with the whim of superstars right now, particularly the conversation we had at the start of the podcast about whether Lillard is going to kind of be difficult about this if he's dealt somewhere he doesn't want to go. I think I would probably pass on this right now if I'm them. But again, they clearly have the assets to at least be in the conversation and potentially make Aaron Goodwin and potentially Damien Lillard pretty upset because they do have the assets to certainly start a conversation and maybe end it. If they really wanted to, I just think it's a little bit early in their life cycle and a little bit late in Damien's playing career to try to mesh those two right now. Yeah, I feel the same way about Brooklyn as I do Utah, teams that I think could unequivocally beat Miami's trade packages and teams that Joe Kronin should obviously be trying to do business with. But I just don't know if Damien is the right gamble for either of those teams at the stage of where they are, team building wise. They all have guys who are in their mid-early 20s. And again, just the tax concerns too, that's why I just feel like I'm not here sitting here being like this is a great Miami offer and more than some pounds on it. I just do think there's just to me a little bit less places that make sense for Lillard than people I think have been kind of talking about is realistic options. Hey, all it's Amisa and Devon here and we've got some news for you. Get ready because MTV's official challenge podcast is heading back in time. For the first time ever, we're diving into an iconic season from the past. And what better place to start then? Say it with me. Free agents! It's a fan favorite and has so many iconic rivalries like bananas versus Jordan, Laura versus Cara. Oh, and also, you and I were both on it. Don't forget to marry the wig. All right, Pete girl. I know. We'll be joined by legendary cast members from the season and we'll go behind the scenes with them for the first time ever. Plus, here what they've been doing since the show ended because you know Yala knows anyone to know. Yeah, just because there's no challenge on TV right now, doesn't mean we're going to leave our podcast listeners hanging. Listen to MTV's official challenge podcast on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's move on though to the other superstar who's kind of twisting in the wind at the moment. It felt more imminent, imminent, on the night of free agency when we saw the tweets about James Harden saying that he's opting in and looking for a trade. I thought the Clippers made a lot of sense and I thought maybe a deal would be getting done there quickly. Now we're hearing reports that the Sixers may be trying to convince Harden to come back that Gerald Morrie is willing to play this out like the Ben Simmons situation and waiting to the season to trade James Harden if he needs to, et cetera, et cetera. I'm just going to say I think Philly should get out of the James Harden business. I would take a deal that didn't have draft capital back. I don't know why they'd be expecting good picks with a guy on an expiring deal who just had the playoffs he had. I think you'd get packages from a team like the Clippers that would, hey, keep you very competitive right now. Be maintain your cap flexibility moving forward. But, Manics, I'll go to you like, do you feel like the Sixers are just kind of wasting and beads time a little bit? Like, shouldn't they get going on this or do you think that Morrie can really put another rabbit out of his hat here by waiting on a hard and trade? If people think Gerald Morrie's not willing to bring James Harden back next year, they must have fallen asleep two years ago when Ben Simmons was texting his teammates saying, don't come to California. I don't want to be back there and they went through that entire year or at least half the year with Simmons on the roster. I give Darryl credit for this. He's willing to be uncomfortable in these types of situations. So I absolutely do believe that if the right offer doesn't materialize, James Harden will be on the Sixers come training camp. I think right now, the offers are not very good. They don't include any young players. They don't include any serious draft capital. And, you know, even though James Harden is on the last year of his contract and you can't extend him if you're the team that acquires him, the Sixers want that. If for no other reason, then they want to take that draft capital, turn around and trade it to another team, maybe for a little bit, for somebody else to to plus up the roster around Joel M.B. And look, it would be, it wouldn't be ideal to bring James Harden back next year and play all the next season with him there. But if you're Philadelphia, if you bring Harden back, you know you're going to get the best of Harden, who is in the interest of self preservation, is going to play well or is going to try to play well because he wants to get that next contract. And if he's a mouth content and if he shows up out of shape and if he plays poorly, that next deal is going to be like the mid-level exception when he goes into, to free agency at age 35. So I think there's less danger in bringing him back with one year left on the deal than bringing Ben Simmons back with the entirety of his long-term contract left. Ben Simmons could wait that out. I mean, Ben Simmons had, even though he was fined, you know, eventually, and who knows if you haven't ever to pay those fines. But Ben Simmons had the contract to be able to wait that out. James Harden doesn't. So I think James Harden coming back, you'd get the best out of him. Plus, like the worst-case scenario for the Sixers is you're bringing him back, you play next season. And then in the summer of 2024, you see like $75 million come off your books in the form of James Harden and Tobias Harris. And they didn't extend Tyres Maxi because they didn't want to get that number on their books for the summer of 2024. So you would have the opportunity to agree to a deal with Tyres Maxi early in that off season, but not sign it until you use your capsules and then have Tyres Maxi, have Joelle and Bede, and whoever else, like whoever else becomes available, either via trade or free agent signing. I don't think that's a terrible option for the 76ers right now. That's why I think there is a realistic chance we see James Harden with this team come September October. What do you think, Aaron? Because I hear what Manix is saying. And, you know, I didn't think, I thought Darryl Morrie should have tried to trade Ben Simmons for Tyres Halberton or any other move that he made before ended up, you know, the Harden trade worked out and they unequivocally won that trade. I didn't think they should have waited, although they still haven't made it out of the second round. So, Aaron, I'll ask you, do you think it's worth waiting because I, we can debate whether Joelle and Bede should have won MVP, but you have the MVP on your team. Undoubtedly, one of the best five players in the NBA at worst. I just, to me, it's like, I don't want to play with fire a second time here and potentially waste another season of imbede when he's this good. What do you think? Because I hear what Manix is saying, but to me, that seems like too big of a risk. Yeah, I mean, it's, look, it's obvious that I remember just kind of complaining left and right on our podcast, off our podcast to anyone I saw in the street that, man, the sixers have an MVP level talent and they're sitting here with this Ben Simmons circus, kind of off to the side. They were really good that season without Simmons even being there with literally a zero, you know, slotted in his spot while he was just their sideline, basically, and that the team frustrated with him and everything else. I think they still won close to 50 games that season and that was not getting anything from that spot until they eventually make the trade. So ideally, you don't want to really go into a situation with the possibility that you're going to have a disgruntled player there. I do buy into what Manix is saying a lot here, though, that this is a little different. The stakes are pretty high here for James Harden. And as we've seen, frankly, even from Kyrie last season, after everything that happened with the, you know, the Twitter and the idea of promoting or, you know, retweeting a film that had anti-Semitic sentiments in it, that whole thing played out. And once he came back from suspension, he was largely quiet and just doing his job and just being a player on the team, essentially saying like, okay, I can be on my best behavior for the next few months. Now, I think where it went wrong with him is that, obviously, he inquired about what his contract status was going to look like and they didn't hit him with the answer he was hoping for. And then he asked out, but my point is, I think people, generally speaking, when they have that big of a, you know, a dollar figure, a money sign hanging over their thought bubbles or whatever you want to call it, that they can fall in line and that they can give their best effort or whatever their best effort is. I'd like to think James Harden would do that here. There's no way to ever know. He's becoming highly unpredictable too from asking out of Brooklyn right after getting there, essentially, a year, a little bit more than a year after getting there to then wanting to go to Philly and, you know, everything else and now wanting out of Philly potentially. Even though they are a contender too, a flawed one, but a contender, I think that I could probably ask him back and would want to have him back. But absolutely, I'm knocking on every door there is about the Lillard situation first because that is a, if you could get him and I think even if you had to give up Maxi to do it, I still think that might be a better move here than having Harden come back as a question mark as someone that I don't think you're excited to have him back. He's certainly not going to be excited to come back. But, you know, all those reasons I think Lillard is the best situation for them here. But how does that look if you go for it and it doesn't happen and Maxi comes back and, you know, he's been on the trade block. How offended is he? How does that wreck dynamics and chemistry to some extent too? All these things matter. But if you had indications that Maxi and some other stuff would be enough to get Lillard, I think you probably should do that. The Harden thing is interesting to me, the contract to your Harden narrative only because I could see him going for his numbers without necessarily being conducive to winning necessarily either. Manics, what do you think is what's like the dream within reason, the dream filly package for Harden? Like, what is it? Who is that they're looking for? What is it that they're looking for? You know, what are they hoping to get back? I bet the dream filly package is a deal with the clippers that brings back Terence Mann and the two first round picks that the clippers can deal. That's pie in the sky because Harden's not what he used to be in Harden as one year left on his contract. But that's an ideal situation. I think, you know, would the clippers settle for a Marcus Morris centric package with draft capital probably, or sorry, with the Sixers, I should say, settle for that probably because I think the draft capital is more important. You know, Philadelphia is kind of tapped out of a future first round draft picks to trade as a result of of the Harden deal, you know, with Brooklyn. So I think getting those picks from the clippers or anybody is got to be a priority. But it's going to be challenging. It really is because you're not trading away 2000 and, you know, 20 version or whatever version of James, even 2021 version of James Harden. It's just a different player on a different contract. And I feel the clippers, you're smart to play Hardball with the Sixers. You're going to dare them for a while to see if they really have the appetite to bring James Harden back next season. If you're the clippers, why would you make them your best possible offer for James Harden right now? Like what is the market for Harden? Like the nicks. I've been told the nicks aren't really all that interested. And if they are, the nicks are keeping their powder dry for guys like Yanis. And, you know, maybe Lillard or, yeah, it's just, and be protecting, and be like, yeah, they're protecting RJ Barrett and those draft picks for bigger fish. And beyond that, like, who else is acquiring James Harden? Like, you know, for months, we heard about Houston and, and they showed absolutely no interest in, in acquiring James Harden via free agency. It's the clippers are bust and the clippers know that. So why wouldn't you offer them just, you know, base of your poo poo platter of expiring contracts and maybe second round draft capital if you want to throw that in there. But yeah, you're just, you're not too many times this off season. We've seen teams bidding against themselves. I think the Mavericks did that with Kyrie Irving. You know, I don't know what the, the Blazers are looking at, you know, Miami, you know, with what they're going to bid. I just think that the clippers need to keep it a low ball offer as long as humanly possible and just see if how serious the sixers are about bringing James Harden back. Yeah, I think I would do the exact same thing. And it really wants to do another awkward year with imbuedness prime. If they have the appetite for that, I think you fear the clippers, you say, congratulations. That's impressive resolve. But um, I just, sometimes you just got to tip your cat with the stubbornness. Like, I think that would be an insane route for Philly to take. Um, when you have a, why? Like, but I just think it's like, imbued is too good to be wasting his time. Like, okay, okay. So, so let's say you do a clipper deal, which gets you Marcus Morris and Nick Batum just throwing that out there as two, two possibilities. Like, does that, what does that do for you? Does that make you a better team next year? Like, Joel and beat at least showed he can thrive in chaos. Like, the year that that Simmons sat out, imbued was runner up for MVP. And if not for injuries, he probably would have been the MVP that year. So, like, imbued is fine in these situations. In fact, I think he's one of the best leaders in these situations. Because if you remember when that Simmons stuff was going down, like, imbued was front and center every single day, like talking to the media about it, not ducking any questions. He's really good at that. And I think Nick Nurse, who dealt with his own craziness with Kauai for, for that year, he's shown he can thrive in those situations. I just don't think it's as, it's just complicated. I think more, and this is where Darryl and I, this is where I respect Darryl. Darryl and I have been on the opposite side of things a lot over the years. And his constant chirping at members of the media from Boston is consistently, I love it. But, because Darryl, it's kind of, yeah. Guys like Darryl and Danny Angel and Pat Riley, guys that just have the stomach for, for doing what they think is right for their team, regardless of how uncomfortable it makes people. I think that's the, that's the way you run your team. So, Chris, I think, I think hold on to him is the best way to go. Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off there at all. I think Rose Point, and I don't want to completely speak for you, but I know this is how I'm feeling and I get the impression of how you feel too. It's not even necessarily how imbued handles it. I just think it's more a question of his health. And I think if, you know, one year here, one year there is fine, but that's what this becomes now, effectively, is two years, where you did at least the better part of two years, it would be that you would have a disgruntled point guard point forward, however you want to phrase it, that either is off the roster, on the roster, with the team, not with the team, but you're kind of playing with fire from that standpoint of these were, this was the better part of two seasons of your MVP players prime, that you kind of toyed with while knowing that his injury history isn't the greatest. He has, I think, the mentality to deal with it, although you don't want to take that for granted either, I just think that even with anyone, Lillard included, by the way, that you don't want to take for granted that physically, that it's something that they can take on, if Hardin does go out there and is numbers focused, but not doing what's best for the team, or if Hardin goes out there and kind of surprises us all, and isn't viewing this as enough of a a carrot or a motivation or an incentive. Again, I would err on the side of bringing him back if I had to, if it comes to that, you know, there are worse things than having a guy that probably should have been an all-star last year back on your roster this year, a guy that, you know, you almost got out of the second round with, in part because of how well he played at times during the series, but I do understand where Rose coming from, if that's kind of what he was, the pace he was making, I think it was. Definitely. Yeah, I just, I'm taking time by him as way too strong of a connotation and not what I want to say, but I just don't want to continue to take chances, which, Roland beat, even though I've with you, Chris, I think the way he handled it was exemplary, and he's done a great job there. But you also risk him being like, I'm sick of this, and I don't want to stay here anymore at some point, because I have to keep dealing with this. Does, does, does getting Marcus Morris and Nick Batoune make you feel better? If I got Norm Powell and Nick Batoune, I trust Norm Powell more in a game seven. I'll say it. Norm Powell was ballin against the suns. I would take Norm Powell and Nick Batoune and some variation of those guys, because I think they'd actually be really good, and I put the ball in Maxi's hands more, and I think I have a more balanced team, maybe even a better two-way team, if I make a trade like that. Okay, all right. That's, that's, you're, this is like NBA trade machine stuff that you're doing. Hey, Chris, just hung up the phone with you as the other GM on the side of that call. Listen, oh, I, all I don't know is when the Sixers needed hard and to step up at the end of that game six, or in that game seven, he was nowhere to be seen. Hey, all it's Amisa and Devon here, and we've got some news for you. Get ready because MTV's official challenge podcast is heading back in time. For the first time ever, we're diving into an iconic season from the past. And what better place to start then? Say it with me. Free agents! It's a fan favorite and has so many iconic rivalries like bananas versus Jordan, Laura versus Cara. Oh, and also you and I were both on it. Don't forget to mayor the wig. All right, key girl. I know. We'll be joined by legendary cast members from the season and we'll go behind the scenes with them for the first time ever. Plus, here what they've been doing since the show ended, because you know y'all are nosy and you want to know. Yeah, just because there's no challenge on TV right now, doesn't mean we're going to leave our podcast listeners hanging. Listen to MTV's official challenge podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. There's more to get through this. I think this might be the like in terms of value and need and fit. This might be my favorite signing of the summer so far and that's the Dallas Mavericks getting grant Williams on a four year, 53 million dollar contract and the signing trade with the Boston Celtics. I mean, he brings big game experience. He's a shooter, which you need around Luca and Kyrie, someone who can space the floor and spot up from the corners or above the arc or above the break, I should say, and he can guard multiple positions. They want to go small. They want to play him big. I mean, he's really just the exact kind of player they need, exact kind of player. They need to stack around Kyrie and Luca. What have you guys made of the Mav summer so far? Because I think they took some heat for trading for Kyrie in the first place and obviously resigning him, you know, they're not able to sign with he's title. The players are going to match that offer they could go after someone like Kelly Ubrei. Luca missing the playoffs as good as he is is to me a pretty big red flag. So what have you guys made of the Mavs have done so far this summer? Do you think they've made the right moves to get back into the playoffs? I think they've done okay. I think that they took one gamble that I really liked, but, you know, we'll all figure out how that goes when we see if Dante XM. Yes, I liked Dante XM. It's actually himself. I think it was a gamble. I was the biggest Dante XM fan coming out of. That was like five years ago. That was a long time. Exactly my point. No, no, exactly my point. So that's why I'm starting with him because I think it's a gamble that may or may not pay off. I think it's one that a team like Dallas absolutely should make because you're kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place in part because you put yourself there going all the way back to Jalen Brunson, bringing in Kyrie to try to fix that mistake, feeling the need to kind of over really give too much in the form of a player option in year three. So, you know, that's something that I don't like about their summer at all. I think it was too much. I think that they didn't have to go there. Again, Chris mentioned earlier, who were they bidding against, so to speak, with Kyrie? So the XM move I think is something that you don't have that much money to play with. You have to do something. I think it's a gamble that, you know, all of us like XM, I feel like he's been injured repeatedly. You hope it works out for them. If it does, you get a plus defender. Grant Williams on the other hand, I feel like is a solid player that all of us, I mean, maybe we're not puzzled exactly why he was a lesser part of the Boston rotation. He wouldn't have been in my ideal world. I thought that he was more useful than he got credit for. But as Chris has said repeatedly on this podcast, Joma Zula wants everybody willing and able to take threes in that offense. It's one of the first things Joma Zula points to after every press conference is whether the team got up enough threes or not. He, you know, I would say as much as some of the nerdiest people I know on Twitter, is quick to point out when they lose that our threes just didn't go down or we didn't have a good night from outside. So, you know, how does Grant Williams fit within a team within a context within an offense that plays like that? If he's not willing to shoot as much as he should or as much as Joma Zula wants him to, then maybe he's not quite as valuable as we thought. At least to that team, I thought he had more value to them or should in light of them getting rid of Marcus Smart. But as Rohan brought up, there's the second tax apron. And, you know, that was a situation where it's looked like at least on the surface that the Celtics don't want to really go there, at least not for this. So, I guess I understand it from that standpoint, but if I'm the Mavs, I'm really happy about it. Do I think it totally changes the trajectory of the team? No. I think that they still have made some moves that were very offense focused too. They went out and got Seth Curry, who's a guy that maybe they shouldn't have let go in the first place, gives them more shooting. We understand that part of it. But, you know, I think the team is a little bit better out than where they started. But the XM move, I feel like, is a swing move for them. If he can give them something, then this team has much more of an upside, I think, than they otherwise would have. I think they entered the offseason needing two things. They needed a rim protector and they needed a perimeter defender. I didn't get either of those things. So, I have a hard time calling this and overwhelmingly successful offseason for Dallas to get Kyrie Irving back and we can quibble over the money, but they had to do it. They had to get him back in the fold. So, now he's there. Anyone I've talked to in Dallas, and I've said this year before, has said that Kyrie was great last year. Like in terms of a locker room guy, he wasn't distraction. We'll see if that continues, you know, over the duration of this contract, but, you know, they needed to get him back. Grant Williams is an excellent signing. You need catch and shoot players opposite Kyrie and Luca Doncic. And Grant Williams is an excellent catch and shoot player. He's been playing off of Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum for the last few years. Now he plays off of Kyrie and Luca. And like I've written this and I'll repeat it again here. Like Grant Williams, first half of the last season, shot 41.5% from three point range. That was over 58 games. So, not a small sample size before the all-star break. The second half he tailed off. And I do think part of that was because Grant Williams, who is a thinking player, you know, he's he thinks a lot. He's a very smart guy. Obviously, he's the VP of the players union. But he's a thinking man's player out there. And I think free agency, all the pressure that came with it, a new contract. I think some of that crept into his head. And after a while, it became kind of a rock rolling down the mountain with the, you know, him hesitating on three point shots. Joe Mizzoula pulling him out because of that. I think having the security of this four-year deal at a number that Grant Williams won. This is right around what he was looking for in negotiations last fall. I think having that that security is going to make Grant a more relaxed player up there and a better player because of it. But they still don't have that big. Like, who is the starting center right now? Is it Dwight Powell? Is it Maxi Kleber? Are we reviving Javille McGee? Like, what is what is happening down there? Who's the wing defender? Tim Hardaway, Jr. is not a wing defender. Yeah, he's just not. He's, you know, Matisse Tybal was the guy they were trying to bring in and they did everything they could to poison pill that contract. But, you know, the Blazers, not surprisingly, frankly, you know, said, all right, 11 million bucks a year from Matisse Tybal is not an absurd overpay. So we're going to give him that money. So I think they're where there, there may be a little bit better than where they were last season where they're a heavy offensive team with some real defensive holes. And we'll see if Jason Kid can plug them with some of the guys he has there. I mean, a full season of Maxi Kleber is, is going to be useful. Grant Williams is a versatile defender, plays multiple positions and can do that pretty well. But when you have two guys on the perimeter that are below average, that's what Luca and Kyrie are. They're below average defenders. And they're getting beat on the regular. And you have nobody that inspires fear in, in, in penetrators in getting in terms of shop blocking. That's a problem. If you don't have somebody that can defend the Kevin DeRance and LeBron James's and, you know, the Michael Porter juniors and go down the list of great wing players in the Western Conference, that's a problem. So where I pencil the Mavericks in right now, fully healthy, I'd still say they're a play in team at the moment. And that's crazy. Like, like if I'm Dallas, you know, Clint Capella's a guy I would want. Like that's someone I'd be eyeballing. You know, Atlanta's making some changes down there. If I can get my hands on Clint Capella, you know, they've been focused on DeAndre Aiden. How do you take the offer you're going to make for Aiden and, and turn it to, to Clint Capella? I mean, Clint Capella and Luke Adonchich. Yeah, that's a good parent that that's a good combination in picking roll. Like the number of lobs Capella could catch off him. Like that's the kind of deal I think that could turn Capella, or turn Donchich into an MVP. Like because of, you know, the numbers are going to skyrocket. He'll play well in Capella is that shop locker on the back end that'll protect them defensively. So if I'm Dallas, you know, if the suns are not talking eight and anymore, even if they are, I'm taking that package of assets that I was looking to deal for DeAndre Aiden. And I'm turning to Atlanta and I'm saying, well, will this get it done here for Capella? Can we make a deal happen? Because Capella Capella to me is the kind of player that could push that team from a 7-8 team to a 4-5 team pretty quickly. That's interesting. I'm maybe a little higher on the maps offseason than you guys. I do agree they still need help on the wing. I mentioned I think Ubrek could help him there. Not that he's a perfect player, but he's very serviceable. I like the idea of going out and getting like someone like Capella. Maybe Derek Lively gives them something as a rookie who knows. I can't sit here and say that we know exactly how he's going to turn out, but I thought that was at least a very sensible trick for them. I want to ask that they're going to be. I think that subtracting Christian Wood from the defensive rotation, like it was weird that, even fans and bloggers that I really respect down there were saying they were kind of confused about the fact that Jason Kid wasn't leaning in more to Christian Wood because it was a team where nobody could defend last year. It's like, well, nobody defends and we're going to make it known that we're basically playing track meets and we're just trying to outscore everybody. Why not use maybe our best scoring big, basically, a guy that, you know, every time he gets the ball, he's a threat to score, but he wasn't good on defense. Like on a team of guys that nobody defends, like he was one of the worst guys, I think, from that standpoint. So pulling him out of their rotation while it leaves a little bit more to be desired, scoring wise from other guys, I feel like it will help them defensively to not have him there, but I fully agree with Chris too that you still need someone that inspires fear or that engenders fear in your heart defensively. And they just haven't had that. As much credit as Maxi Cleaver and everybody else has gotten over the years for all the stuff they do, he's not an ideal rim protector and they've kind of relied a lot whether it's him or Bertons or, you know, Pursing is, I guess, was more of a rim protection sort of player, but they haven't really had that guy for a while. A really, really great one, maybe going back to Tyson Chandler at this point. I forgot the Christian Wood was still out there at Freedon, so you didn't find anywhere, right? I think. Correct. But by the way, shout out to our friend Kevin O'Connor over at the Ring of Rhymer. Two years ago, it was telling me that Christian Wood was going to be an impact player for Dallas. I was insisting that he was not for the very reason that you are related. They're herring. You were early on the Christian Wood. Let me see it on a good team. Let me see it on a good team. Like those numbers you're putting up in Detroit and in Houston. Like, let me see it on on a good team. And you had some chances with Dallas last year. I know his agent and him were looking for, you know, kind of that 55 million over four type contract. That's not going to happen, you know, for Christian Wood. He's probably going to wind up on some kind of minimum or biannual exception contract somewhere. That's because you can't rely on him defensively. You just can't. And if you're a 6-11-7 footer who you know, is is unreliable defensively, I don't care how many points you're putting up. You're not going to impact winning. It's not going to happen. So yeah, it is probably for them, you know, addition by subtracts. You got plenty of offensive Dallas. Like you're going to score points regardless of Christian Wood. But you need some kind of defensive players to to succeed. And, you know, if if a Kyrie Luca headline team can't do better than like the 7 seed in the West next year, that's a problem. That's a big problem for Dallas. And it's all roster construction at the moment. Manics is the opposite of the Shaq meme. He's like, I don't owe you an apology. I was familiar with your game. I do not owe you. I was familiar with your game. Yeah. Yeah, Christian Wood, but that's a polarizing guy for me for years because I remember going back to the draft and like I heard some things about him then. And, you know, just like the desire to be great defensively or like just the effort on that end. It's, you know, it's just bad. It's a bummer. How good would the guy be? He's a talented player. Yeah. Oh, he can shoot threes. He can do a whole bunch of stuff. But I am, look, this is not not to pivot it back. But like, this is why porzingis bothers me a little bit. Like not the same player, of course. Porzingis had successful years in New York. It was traded from Dallas in part because of the contract. I wanted to break that up. But, you know, I got all these Boston people in my Twitter mentions about, you know, like great Williams overrated. You know, what do you say? Grand Williams stinks. We got porzingis now. All right. Well, porzingis had a breakout year last year when he played 65 games, which is the first time he's played over 60 since his second year in the league. Shot 38% from three. But he did it on a crappy wizards team. And he did it in a contract year. So, like, I mean, do it on a winning team. I do it with winners. Like maybe porzingis will prove me wrong. And look, I'm much more bullish on his chances of doing it than I was on Christian Wood. But I mean, come on. Don't don't tell me that Chris that's porzingis on Boston is going to duplicate the numbers that porzingis put up with Washington. I do not believe that to be the case. I do not believe that's going to happen. So I'm numbers on bad teams. I'm always, always, always going to be worried about. Well, I'm glad you brought up Boston because that's the flip side of this Grant Williams thing. And I want to ask real quick, hearing I'll start with you, is Boston better or worse right now than they were at the end of last season? Because they've effectively sent out Marcus Smart and Grant Williams from last year's rotation and replaced that with Chris Tabs porzingis. If I were them, I know the second apron is scary. I have a hard time letting Grant Williams walk on a number that I think is very reasonable. What do you think, airing? Is this seen better or worse than that they were where they ended last season? I'll say this. I think they're worse, but that is me not assuming, but it's me kind of to some extent, expecting that they're going to have injury issues. Man, they get then, after a while, if God helped them, if Derek White gets hurt, is the way I would put it. From the standpoint of their defensive stuff, we kind of expect Robert Williams to get hurt. So maybe it's helpful to have Chris Tabs porzingis, but Chris just told you it's rare for him to be available all the time. Last year was a high water mark for him in a lot of ways from an availability standpoint. When I look at it from that lens, they've got three centers. One guy is extremely consistent, but he's pretty old at this point. The other two are guys that are in and out of the line at most years. They just lost two of their better, I don't know if you'd call Grant Williams a wing defender, because obviously you can play power for it as well. But someone that is pretty versatile defensively, that in a pinch, he could play five for you if you need him to, if you play small ball, and can shoot from the outside, can allow you to maintain your offense because you can still space the floor with them. That is all without even mentioning a guy that is in some ways the backbone of your team, the guy that actually will chirp in other guys' ears when he sees something that doesn't make sense to him. When he sees something he doesn't like about effort, is going to give you his best effort all the time. Grant, he's not someone that stays healthy all the time either, but even if he's not healthy, you at least know he's there mentoring, he's there, talking, he's there chewing guys out when they need to hear that. Which I tend to think Joma Zula needs people in uniform doing that, given that his personality is a lot different than Eme Udoka. So I wouldn't be surprised at all if I just end up being wrong about it because maybe they're healthy, all it takes is one year where you get lightning in a bottle, everybody's healthy and you win a championship maybe. But if they have injuries with some of these guys that they just brought in, they were letting go of some guys that have been pretty durable and have certainly been good for that program, for that system. So I think they're a little bit worse off, it might not be by much, but also if they don't win a championship in the next year or two, I think people will probably look at this and be like, should they have made these moves, should they have allowed these guys to leave? Manics, where do you stand on their summer so far? I think I'm worse. I say that with the caveat that I don't know that their summer is over. It feels like they're up to something with all these movable contracts and all these draft picks, particularly the second round capital they've been stockpiling. So we put the asterisk attached to this conversation with that. But if this is the team they go to training camp with, they're not as good as what they were last year. You know, on paper, are they better up front with Porzingis over Grant Williams? Sure, but you have three guys in your front court that you can almost bet are going to miss a chunk of time. Every one of them. Robert Williams for injury issues, Al Horford's 37, Porzingis, because he has not played more than 60 games since that second season. So and behind them, they've still got the same depth. You've still got Luke Cornett. You've got some young guys that, you know, unreliable, you know, again, Boston fans who love jumping in my mentions are like, we got Jordan Hardy now. Okay. Well, I mean, second round picks, 90% of the time, maybe more, do not contribute right away. And like 75% of the time, don't contribute at all. So I'm going to, you know, I'm not going to hold my breath that Jordan Hardy is going to be their, their savior at that spot. The back court, too. You know, the Celtics are, you know, telegraphing that Malcolm Brogdon's just going to rest is going to be fine going into the season. But Malcolm Brogdon's injury was so significant that the point guard starved Clippers were like, now we're good. We're good. Like that, that's a team that doesn't care about money, you know, particularly comes to Brogdon's contract and is all about winning now. And Brogdon coming off a year where he won sixth man. And the Clippers are going to say, no, that tells me that injury is significant. And I don't know, I've heard some rumblings, nothing, you know, I can, it can share and reporting wise that, you know, there's, we're keeping an eye on that, keeping an eye on that Malcolm Brogdon injury and how that's treated over the next couple of months. So if Brogdon is forced to miss some time, which by the way, he's done for almost the entirety of his career, you know, he's, you know, last season, the number of games he played was an outlier from Malcolm Brogdon. If he's forced out, you're talking about Derek White, Peyton Pritchard, who's, I think is pretty good, but didn't really play last year. And Sam Howes, you were played a lot early on, but then became unplayable in the second half of the season and the playoffs. They've got a starting lineup that is, you know, maybe better than the one they had last season, but their depth is just, you know, toilet paper thin. It just is. They, they don't have the kind of reserves that they had last season. And you're going to have to count on these guys at some point. I mean, Oliver, Oliver's money goes down significantly this year because he signed that new contract that's going to make him pay him like what 10 million per year. I think part of that is you're going to see Al Hoerford play like 40 to 45 games because they're going to want to save him for the post season. You're not going to want to burn him out. So I think, you know, back to backs are done. You know, the few three and four nights are over. They're going to rest him a lot more this year than they did in previous years. And you know, that's going to cost them, I think, in the regular season. And if they're not at 100% in the playoffs, I think they're going to have problems against some of the deeper teams out there. Yeah, that is interesting to me. Yeah, it's a team that I think weirdly could have a lower floor, but higher ceiling at the same time. If everyone is healthy, Derek Whitesman, it's go up. Poor thing is, is the player he was last season. Then they look like geniuses. But I'm with you. The depth is, is paper, paper thin. That, I think, is going to do it for today's episode before we go. I just want to mention while we were recording, we got a mild bit of news. And that is that Sir Foster, the renowned organist for the Lenox retiring stepping down after six years. I know. I know. He's a legend. Absolutely. Yeah, what a bummer. How do you, Rohan, bring up the organist of the hawks and you don't lead with Wemba Nyama versus spears? Like, how is that? Like, I figured you would lead with Victor going up against Britney Spears. Like, I thought that would, I was convinced that would be the first. I am, like, I'm scrolling through Twitter. And it's like, I see statements from Britney on there about an interaction with the service. Like, the clip of Wemba Nyama being asked about Britney Spears by Spurs beat riders was a man like his first day. Yeah. His first day of summer league, you know, practice. And he's getting asked about Britney freaking spears like wild. Absolutely. Why? I also thought you would bring up, you know, the Brandon Miller panic meter. Are we? Are we in on what's the Brandon Miller panic meter right now after two lousy games in Sacramento for the Hornets summer league team? Like that summer league stuff, man. Like, let's go. Let's get it to summer league next week. I'm glad you're wondering why I didn't bring those up, Manics. And it's because I could not care less about NBA summer league. It is a joke when I see people breaking film down of summer league games. I just want to say, go outside. There's a whole world out there. I love summer league. I love summer league. I bet you love the Vegas summer league, Manics. I'm going to say you were not as frequent as a participant as Orlando summer league. Well, I go where all the teams are. They weren't always there. I went to Salt Lake summer league a couple of years ago. All right, summer league. Okay, okay. Manics loves summer league. I think it's a complete waste of time. Shout out to Sir Foster, though, that time you played the organ version of Nevada by young boy. I was that was art to me and it doesn't get much better. Because that's that's way more interesting than Wemba Nyama and Brett Emila or something like you're right. You nailed it. You nailed it. On that note, that will do it for today's episode. We will talk to everyone next week until then continue to enjoy the NBA off season.