In a new series from the teams at Novel and I Heart Radio, this is the Fighty Pucks.
We're going out on the ice with the most violent hockey team ever.
That was Gorilla Warfare, at the highest.
Were they heroes or villains you decide?
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Welcome to the jungle.
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It's the crossover, Sports Illustrated, NBA Show.
Break it down, the latest news, rumors, and everything in between.
Here's your host, Chris Manix, Rohan, I can be in Chris Hearing.
Welcome back to another episode of the crossover podcast.
I'm Rohan Akini, joined today by my close personal friend, New York Times, best-selling author.
Of the book, Blood in the Garden, Spike Lee's friend, Chris Hearing, as well as former Celtics ballboy, Chris Manix.
Guys, the NBA Finals have ended a pretty awesome Game 5, all things considered.
But the nuggets pulling away from the heat at the very end there for a 94-89 win.
Their first championship in their 47-year history.
In the NBA, Nicoliokitch, unsurprisingly named Finals MVP.
Manix, let's start with you, our man on the scene in Denver.
Just tell us a little bit about what it was like after the game, what the celebration was like.
I'm curious, we did not.
There was no small talk before this podcast.
What was the mood like in Denver?
How would you compare to other championship clinters you've seen?
It was comparable.
It was loud, certainly, inside the arena.
And, you know, what I kind of watched the faces of each of the key players,
you sort of saw a variety of different things.
I found it amusing that Nicoliokitch's instinct after the game was not to, you know, point to the heavens or jump up and down,
but to congratulate, quite literally, every one of my energy players afterwards.
When he was done with that, he kind of looked around like, what do I do next?
You know, the emotion on Jamal Murray's face was real.
The emotion on Michael Porter Jr's face was real.
Both those guys, you know, went through a lot to get to this point.
Physically, you know, had to train their bodies to get to this point.
So, yeah, I mean, it was up there with every kind of celebration you've heard in buildings past for championships.
I just thought how each of these players responded was most interesting.
Because in the case of Murray, you know, this is, I mean, look, ACL tears.
We look at them differently now than we did 10, 15, 20 years ago.
But, you know, there was a point in the last couple of years where Jamal Murray really wondered if he would ever get it back.
If he would ever, you know, be the player, he was on track to being.
So, when you saw him kind of crouch down and the emotion overwhelm him, you know, talking to him a little bit after the game, that is what was kind of running through his mind.
That was what he was feeling in that moment, the relief that he had finally made it all the way back.
Haring, one thing that's really stood out to me about this series now, pace has helped with this a lot.
But the nuggets and all four of their wins held the heat to under 100 points.
And now again, that doesn't mean every single one was kind of an incredible defensive performance.
Game five was, game five was Denver winning the kind of ugly game.
I think a lot of people never expected them to be able to win during the playoffs.
Haring, what did you make a kind of Denver style of play in this playoffs?
And what do you see is kind of sustainable for them in playoffs moving forward?
Well, I think what's so interesting about Denver just generally is it's easy to say now that we can all, you know, we all remember like two weeks with two weeks left in the regular season that like every contender in the West had like a flaw.
And with Denver's, I feel like we were more than anything trying to kind of find one for them.
Everybody else had a really obvious one.
The Warriors were terrible on the road.
The Lakers were still a pretty new team, even though they had been winning towards the end of the season.
Memphis picked her poison, you know, it was the injuries, but it was obviously the John Morant stuff as well.
The Kings had never been there.
So there were so many, you know, the sons of Kevin Durant.
The nuggets, when I really think back on it, it was that they were a pretty average team defensively.
And that, you know, really that what did they struggled a little bit in March?
And, you know, they were losing teams to teams that they had no business losing to.
But, you know, if you go back and look at it and Manics was there, so maybe they got into this a little bit.
Maybe they didn't, who knows, they might have just been bored to be honest with you.
They were relatively healthy this season.
They got a chance to play through their growing pains.
Michael Malone, I think I wouldn't necessarily say to a fault, but if it was to a fault,
it was during a time of the season where the nuggets were allowed to make mistakes,
where he was letting Jamal Murray handle the ball and take the last shots in games,
where he was really struggling.
And I think it was a means of trying to get his confidence back from the stuff that Manics was talking about.
It was a team that had a weakness.
They were not a great rim protection team for a number of reasons.
It's not really Yoke just strength, but it wasn't a fatal flaw.
And frankly, when you look at who they played for all the jokes and all the comments that have been made about how easy a path they had,
they played against some great players on this run.
And they had the most difficult offense in the league to defend.
Because they were so balanced, because if you took Yoke its a way in one regard,
he could still beat you in another.
I mean, you know, he had a 53 point game against the Suns.
Like that's not, first of all, it's difficult to do that even if a team is forcing you to try to beat them through your scoring.
But there's just so many other guys on this roster, the depth that this roster had,
whether it was Christian Brown stepping up or Bruce Brown stepping up, Jeff Green making plays,
Contavia's Caldwell Pope leaving the game and coming back.
Aaron Gordon just dominating guys in the post and also holding up his end defensively with Jimmy Butler.
There wasn't a better team in the league top to bottom this year.
I think for a lot of the season, we assumed that the Celtics, the Bucks, they didn't even make it here.
And the team that knocked them out was really no match for this Nuggets team.
They took one game in the series and quite frankly, if I'm being totally honest.
And I'm saying this without a bias, I don't care.
Miami, you better be careful. You better be careful about what you were saying.
You care more than I care about this.
Miami got gifted a couple of calls yesterday that like frankly, I was kind of happy that Denver was able to finish the series yesterday
because that, look, that three point shot foul that Butler got.
If you think it was a foul, if you didn't, I didn't want to see them win a game that has the chance to throw that series in the flux.
When one team so clearly was better than the other.
And that's no fault of Miami's necessarily like they deserve to be there.
They fought hard. They played hard, which to me, the way that they played and competed in that game where they could have just laid down.
To some extent, that's heat culture.
They were playing in the altitude. This is a tough game.
Nothing was falling for them at the basket.
They played hard, but Denver was just a wrecking ball.
And led by Yokech, they won in different ways.
Michael Porter gave them nothing as a three point shooter in the series.
He stepped up yesterday and all sorts of other ways that a lot of people did not think he could.
So I'm really happy for them. I'm really happy for their fan base.
But it was a team that had enough chameleon aspects to them that they could win in different ways.
And they showed it all throughout this playoffs.
Absolutely. And yeah, just Kudos to Denver, like you said, winning in different ways.
I thought that was the most impressive thing to me about game five.
Just the fact that they were a win that defensive slug fast ugly foul game.
I want to talk a little bit about something.
Manics actually wrote about this week, which is the Denver Nuggets kind of their dynasty potential.
Do you see this team winning multiple titles?
Let me start here because I think something that we've seen or something that I think will typically happen in the NBA right or wrong.
There's usually some kind of reaction to a team that wins the championship, right?
There's usually some kind of reaction to, well, we're going to need to have to figure out how to slow down this player.
If we want to win a championship, we assume we'll have to go through them at some point.
I think if you're in the Western conference, especially you have to consider what is our plan for the Yo-Kits Jamal Murray two-man game if we have to play it in the playoffs.
I do think that's something that's going to have to be on the back of mind of teams.
But, Manics, let me start with you. Do you agree with that notion?
Do you think there's going to have to be some element of every team in the West is looking at how do we slow down Jamal and Joker in the playoffs?
Or do you think teams are kind of looking at this like if we had been healthy, you know, if XYZ had happened, maybe we're not so worried about Denver.
What do you think?
No, I think they have to take that mindset.
I think it's more than just stopping that two-man game because I think in the years to come, assuming Michael Porter-Jumer's back holds up, he's going to be even better.
I think Aaron Gordon with another year under his belt in that role is going to be better.
These are not guys, you know, that frankly are even approaching the age of 30.
I mean, Yo-Kits is 28, Gordon's 27, everybody else is younger.
So there's room to grow organically on this roster.
And when you look at the guys on the younger tier and Christian Braun, a brown rather, is going to look that that guy was an impact player in the finals.
And he's only going to get better in the years to come.
I think there's a, there is going to be an off season spent, you know, kind of zeroing in a ways they can slow that specific part of the game down.
But I think Denver's so much more than that.
And you know, it's part, look, they're dynasty potential.
You know, it's not like just us bringing it up.
Like the first thing Michael Malone said when he was interviewed by ABC, your ESPN, whatever aired it,
was, you know, we want more.
And when he got to the post game press conference, he answered a question that I don't necessarily think was about dynasties with, you know, something Pat Riley once said about a team becoming a dynasties.
This is a forefront of the mind of people in Denver and going into next season, they're going to be the favorite.
I think that's fair to say they're starting five is back. They're going to lose Bruce Brown. Like that's just the way it goes.
Even Bruce Brown kind of knows it. Like everybody in the team was like Bruce Brown is going to get paid and Bruce Brown is talking about getting paid.
Deservedly so.
Yeah, he completely deservedly.
So I think he told our buddy Mike Singer last night that he would like to stay.
Money isn't everything.
But I bet players say a lot of things when the champagne is flowing.
Money, money, money.
Bobby Porta stayed to his credit, a guy that like had a huge playover and you're noting the exception and not totally totally.
No, I'm right there with you on that. I'm not trying to say that he's going to stay no matter what.
But he's a big part of that team.
He's a big part of that team, but look, I would expect him to get anywhere from 15 to $20 million per year, depending on how crazy it's going to get.
In the off season, and look, we know that the deal Denver can't offer more than $7.7 million in a new deal.
It would just be just such a big risk Bobby Brown take.
Probably Brown Bruce Brown.
You said Bobby Porta is probably doing it.
Sorry.
Can we say we'll be such a big risk room to take in.
You know, it just, and that's why I think Denver is going to be banking pretty hard on Christian Brown.
Right.
I mean, they went out and they quietly did that deal with Oklahoma City that got them next to first around picking next year's draft because they know what their situation is.
They've got to find ways to get cheap talent and make it work.
So the pressure is going to be on that front office led by Calvin Booth to find those types of guys.
Yeah, I will say one thing real quick interjection.
I'm fascinated to see how contending teams start to navigate this new CBA.
And I am fascinated the idea of contenders kind of being forced to work in first round picks.
Let me go to you though.
What do you think?
Do you think this kind of team that is capable of going on a run like like Manics mentioned, they've also been pretty upfront about this alone.
It was one of the first things he said last night.
Haring, what do you kind of make of their ability to maybe pull off a couple here with Joker at the helm?
I mean, first off, just that basic question without any other context of do they have a generational enough player to do that?
I think what I'm happiest about is that we can move past this debate, this question that I think was kind of a bottom-feeder's question of like, is Yokeuch that good?
You can't win two straight MVP's arguably deserving of a third without being that good.
And so he answered that question I think he answered a lot of questions defensively.
He was massive defensively in that game yesterday.
It's not the traditional way we think about.
We think about a center and the way they defend and the impact they make.
We can agree on that.
He's not the most athletic player.
He would be the first to tell you that he's admitted that to me multiple times in conversations.
That's not the point.
But his offensive talent and his ability to get by and sometimes really impacting him defensively is enough to win them multiple championships if you have the right players around him.
Jamal Murray is obviously one of those guys that, you know, should spend his whole career alongside Nikola Yokeuch.
I think it's a question here of what do the other teams around the league do?
I think, you know, to my confusion, the Lakers waited till really, really, really late in the game to make trades that, you know,
Manics picked them to come out of the West.
They actually could have maybe done it.
Had they made moves sooner and gelled sooner to be able to put up a little bit more of a fight against the team like they're not because would they beaten them?
We don't know that.
But they they looked good and cohesive and if they're healthy and they're playing from the standpoint of a higher seed.
It's a big question with how old LeBron is with Anthony Davis's health.
Obviously, but when you look at that, when you look at the team like the sons, if they go out and retool.
Let's say the sons have an offseason like the nuggets had last year.
And you go out and you get someone who has the impact level of a Bruce Brown or you go out and you trade.
I mean, like as we've had KCP before the sons, you know, get somebody like that.
And you've got more depth to your team.
And you have a new coach.
Crazy things have happened.
The Celtics, you know, with the second year at Jumbozulu, the the bucks for that matter.
Their teams capable of taking aim at them.
I'm sure the Warriors don't feel like they should be left out of that conversation either.
There's absolutely teams capable of making a leap to kind of be on the same levels as the nuggets.
The truth was there wasn't anybody or at least not that we got to see them play in the playoffs that was on their level.
And it's fair to say that I don't think it necessarily guarantees anything about next year for the nuggets.
But absolutely they're capable.
I'm really curious to see what team has a quiet,
but impactful offseason the way the nuggets had last year that can put them on the same level as the nuggets.
And you know, we so often look at the major trades.
I remember the day that the Bruce Brown stuff was announced, you know, via Wode's Twitter, whatever.
I immediately thought that was a massive signing and a perfect signing for them.
Just because you could tell just his play as a cutter, as a ball handler when he needs to be, as a defender.
Wow, that's going to be a perfect fit for them.
Did I realize it was going to be a perfect fit to where it helps win them a championship?
No, but it made perfect sense as did the KCP trade.
So I, you know, if there's another team anywhere near their level that makes deals like that.
I think you're going to have to watch out for them.
And also the thing that we, I don't want to say we've taken it for granted.
One of the biggest things with this team and why they've been interesting even when Jamal Murray was hurt.
When Porter was hurt.
Nicole the Yoke has been extremely, extremely healthy and durable for really.
At this point his whole career, but certainly over this span where you can play two games after the bubble.
Or not, but every game that year.
Right. I mean, he's been basically, I think he's been all NBA five times like basically that whole run.
He's been as durable as just about anybody.
And, you know, if at any point that's not true, all of a sudden, he's so impactful again.
I said without knowing anything else about this team, you would say that they're a contender to run it back and to win it again.
If he's not as healthy or if he's not healthy or if he has a serious injury, the way that most guys do at some point.
Then obviously the conversation shifts.
So that's the, you know, that's the biggest thing you have to be mindful of.
I don't think it's a given, but you know, that's something that we've gotten spoiled with watching LeBron.
And, and step curry even after his injury run to start his career.
Yeah, Aaron, you mentioned how not many people saw Bruce Brown being the championship piece for the nuggets.
I was one of the very few who did just want to float that out there.
They were my preseason title pick everyone.
I also called Bruce Brown the best move of the summer.
So pretty incredible full circle professional moment for me last night.
I guess you could say.
I'm Claire Crofton and in my new podcast, The Fighty Pucks.
We're going out on the ice with the most violent hockey team ever.
That was gorilla warfare at its highest.
The Dambry Trashers wanted to win at any cost.
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You wanted to break every bone in his body.
Literally throwing him like a rag doll.
He's throwing bananas here at the Dambry ice arena.
They can't restrain him right now.
So are they heroes or villains?
You decide.
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There's the FBI side.
There's my side.
And somewhere in the middle is the truth.
Listen to The Fighty Pucks.
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I want to talk about the Miami Heat, a tiny bit. Obviously, make it to the playoffs as an
eight-seed via the play-in. Jimmy Butler, I think, is just like one of the greatest rounds in
playoff history. First round against Milwaukee. They beat the bucks in five games.
Beat them with the audience. Beat them without the audience. They come back to be the next
team in the second round. They're epic seven-gamer against the Celtics. Win three, lose three,
win game seven on the road with another great Jimmy performance in that game. We saw him struggle
in this series a lot though, especially I think that that fifth game was kind of a microcosm
of the series for Butler. He could get it going at some points, but it just wasn't enough.
We saw Bam at a bio. I think 20 point games in every game this series. But again, second half
of game five, I think he had only one field goal in two points.
You know, some people are like, we're the heat, just a hot shooting team, a wacky team.
To me, like, I'm just kind of, I don't understand the point of that discussion. At the end of the day,
just win playoff games. You know what I mean? People like it's a maker mislead.
I'm getting tired of that being the end point of all playoff analysis. The goal of the game is
to make shots. Sometimes teams are going to do it more than others. But I really want to ask
you guys about the heat is, where do they go from here? Do they treat this team like a team that
made a finals birth? Or do they also have to respect the fact that they won only 44 games
in the regular season? Manics, I'll start with you. Is this like a, is this the summer where Pat
Riley has to go all in around Jimmy and Bam? Or do they still need to figure some things out?
I mean, there's never been a summer that Pat Riley has not tried to go all in. Like, you know,
dating back to, you know, Shaq and his trade that acquired him 15, 20 years ago now.
Um, he's always looking to add pieces to the roster at the expense of draft picks and whatever
else, you know, looms in the future. So yeah, I, I expect Miami to once again go big game hunting,
you know, whether that means a run at Damien Lillard, Chris Paul, whoever is available. I think
Miami's going to try to find a way to squeeze that player onto, onto the roster. As it always is
with Miami, it gets complicated because you, you have to look at what they have to deal. Now they
have enough draft picks. They've got their own pick in this coming draft. They've got a few picks
at the back end of this decade that they can deal. But, you know, who on that Miami roster are,
he's going to be the centerpiece of a potential deal. I mean, Tyler Hero is often talked about,
but it's Tyler Hero someone that, you know, gets teams excited about, you know, dealing a potential
franchise player for. I mean, that's, that's tricky to, to do a deal like that. But look, they're
going to keep trying to build onto this and try to keep maximizing this window with Jimmy Butler.
And even look, even if they don't, like, you go into the playoffs next year. If Miami's still
in that same place where they're like a 45, 48, 40, 44, 45 win team, like, it is going to be next
level to see the teams on the top of the bracket trying to avoid them in the first round. Like,
they're just, we're just going to be thinking the exact same thing. Like, Miami is to get into the
playoffs. Jimmy Butler decides to play. Bam and a bio ratchets it up. The way they execute offensively
with their discipline is, is going to be just a challenge in and of itself. They're going to be
a tough out, you know, regardless of what happens this off season. They've got some internal
decisions to off season. You've got Gabe Benson, who's going to be a free agent. Max Bruce is going
to be a free agent. They've been very good kind of plugging in play guys, you know, into those spots,
you know, with Struse and Benson, you know, taking the place of others. Kyle Lowry is a year older.
So they've got some internal decisions to kind of make. But, you know, they'll go out there and
look for that next big star. If they don't get them, they'll grind out the regular season. They
won't care where they finish in the conference rankings. And when they get to the playoffs,
they're going to consider themselves as good as any team in the conference. So I feel like it's
a similar off season for Miami has been for years past.
Hey, Aaron, what about you? Do you think this team is closer to the one we saw on the playoffs,
or closer to the one we saw on the regular season? I mean, I guess I'll say playoffs just because
regular season, you know, they were a team that barely even made the playoffs. And so when you're
making it to the conference finals and winning them to get to the finals, you were one game shy,
one win shy of making the finals year before that. It seems to suggest, and you made the finals
during the bubble year, obviously, as well. It seems to suggest that that's kind of more than norm
for you. Whether it looks that way or not, it's the truth. I do think making it to the finals without
Tyler Hero should give them even less hesitation about trying to find a deal for him. Manics raises
the excellent point, which is like, okay, what team wants him and what are you going to get back
for him? When you guys were having the conversation about whether Riley, whether this is the summer
to go all in, and Manics saying that he always tries to or at least is looking to, I'm reminded of
this tweet one time that Amin Elhasson ginned up about Rich Homie Kwan and how essentially all his
mixed tapes are in order. I go in on every song, still going in, still going in, reloaded. I promise
I will never stop going in. If you ever think I will stop going in, ask Royal Rich. I mean, this is
kind of Pat Riley's mole. It rarely works from the standpoint of getting like a bonafide, bonafide
star. Ever since the LeBron years essentially, Jimmy Butler they got. They haven't really done much
since. I wonder what they, it's weird because when you talk from the standpoint of your undrafted
guys, that makes up more than half their roster. Although they are very, very, very good players
and perfect within their roles, it's hard to consolidate anything into like a trade for a star
necessarily. And heroes contract makes that really difficult just because I don't think he
enjoyed puller kind of in that same sweet spot if you'd call it that of like, sure, you hate having
to play against them when they light you up, but you're not really sure whether you would want them
on your team at that money because they're deficient on the other side of the ball for teams that
play pretty good defense when those guys aren't on the court. So of course you want to do something.
It's difficult for them from the standpoint too of the whole, with the, they wanted to maybe
make a move for Donovan Mitchell, but they couldn't even do it last year because I think there's the
rule involving him. Was it the, is it the Derek Rose rule or whatever it is? The extension rules
out the window now. It is now, but it's just like, you know, they might have been more involved in
other stuff before, but like you weren't going to trade BAM to do that. And so they've got a really
interesting situation. I think BAM showed you something in this finals. I also think that this
was a rare sort of opponent from the standpoint of the sort of drop defense that they play
was part of the reason why it was unlikely for Miami to ever win the series to begin with is because
if you're forcing BAM to be a 25 point score, sure, statistically it looks good. He was a huge
impact player in the series, a star in the series, but that's also like not the way their team operates
generally. When BAM is a guy that you're leaning on to get almost 30 points out of off of mid-range
18 footers. That's a really difficult series to try to win against a team that has that many
offensive options. So I would expect them to try to do something. Pat Riley always is looking to
try to do something. Also Pat Riley is not a young buck at this point. He's closer to 80 years old
at this point. I think he's 78. So I would imagine that he wants to try to, you know, this was as close
as he's gotten, you know, in the last few years, but I would imagine he wants to really give it one last
shot here somehow. And I would imagine that involves trading for a star. But I don't know who you get
that puts you over the top so clearly in the east. They were fortunate to get there at this time.
They did it and they deserve full credit for doing it. But would I bet on them again as an eight
seed to make this happen again? Like I would want them to have a better regular season so that it's
not as difficult for them the whole way to climb this uphill battle again.
Absolutely. It's going to be a fascinating obviously and a man-ext-mentioned. They're going
to figure out what they want to do with Gabe Vincent and Max Truce, which is a perfect example of
guys who were solid in the regular season. But we're much better for large stretches of the playoff
so that we saw Truce kind of struggle again in the finals, same for Vincent. What do you do with
contracts for those guys? What if other teams come in with crazy bids? Can you afford to lose them?
I do think it's interesting. You look like Duncan Robinson and Kyle Lowry. Before the playoff
started, people talked about them as to the more untradable contracts in the league. But now after
the playoffs, both look in a completely different light. I mean, Robinson was huge. In the last two
rounds of the playoffs, when people thought he'd be unplayable, Lowry is now kind of an expiring deal,
but you even saw him have some moments. To me, I'm torn if the heat need their version of like,
obviously they're going to be connected to Damian Lillard. If they need that trade or their
version of the Aaron Gordon trade, because since Jimmy Butler got to the team now, their number one
of the league in playoff wins. They were like neck and neck with Denver in terms of win percentage
over the last four years, winning about 58% of their playoff games, which is very good.
They have the most finals appearances since Jimmy Butler joined the team in 2019. This is not like
what really associate with this heat era, but they have had a lot of postseason success.
It feels like Jimmy and Bam are very close to being able to get it done as a duo.
But yeah, I'm not even sure what the kind of right third piece is around.
I think the, we have to look at two is that Jimmy Butler's going to be 34 in September.
And yeah, he didn't, he didn't look like he had anything left in game five. I mean, yeah,
that like two-minute stretch where he knocked down a couple of threes. He went to the free-throw line.
I mean, he was electric. And he gave you the thinking, the belief that he could help this team
to the finish line. But for most of that game, his legs just didn't look like they were under him.
And we know during the conference playoffs, they asked a lot out of Jimmy Butler. He delivered,
but they asked a lot out of them. Can he do that again next year? We know he's going to be
not a part-time player during the regular season, but he's not going to be this first of Jimmy Butler
during the regular season. I think I have to take a similar approach with Kyle Lauer if he's
back next year where you've got to just kind of hate to use the phrase load manage, but you have
to do that with him during the year to get him to this point. And even if you do,
are they going to be the kind of team that can beat back Milwaukee again, that can beat back
Boston again? It's just asking a lot. It was a perfect storm this year. Jimmy Butler played
incredibly. Duncan Robinson stepped into a role. He hadn't played months and played incredible,
all the supporting players played well. Eric Spulstra outcoached everybody during the playoffs.
I just don't, I'm with herring there. If I was a betting man, I don't know if I'd bet on them
being able to do it again. They're going to have to find a way to make it and make a deal that
upgrades them and gets them kind of into that top four in the Western Conference. They're not clawing
their way through play internaments and you know, have home court advantage and try to do it that way
because this doing it this exact way again, you know, it's statistically improbable to say the
least. Definitely. And I'll just add to that, the Butler one point is a salient one and it will be
very interesting because one of the downsides that comes with playing so many playoff games as they
had. They've almost had, you know, whatever, 66 now I believe over the last four years,
that adds a whole other season on your body. And Jimmy was already a very high minute sky
for so much of his career. They're going to have to find a way to keep him fresh.
Yeah, please. I stress one thing that you said, you know, I think it's a really good question you
raised from the standpoint of like, do you have to go swinging for a damn type or can you kind of
make this sort of in between trade really well timed trade like for an Aaron Gordon that the
nuggets made? I think the difference there is that for the nuggets, offense comes relatively easily
for them. And it just doesn't feel like that's the case for the heat, not that it doesn't feel like
it doesn't. If they're shooting well, it comes more easily when Tyler hero is out there and has
it rolling, it comes more easily for them. But even when they're humming a lot of the times, like
they're humming versus the nuggets is just fundamentally different. So I don't know that there's
like a fourth score necessarily that you can plug into the heat that makes them the best team
in the league. I don't think that they probably need a guy that's a number two at worst a number
three right behind BAM that, you know, that that's true. I guess hero is their number two. But
again, the way we are even talking about heroes that again, he's flawed from the standpoint of
if you could upgrade him and get somebody else that has a higher upside than he does offensively,
you know, I think you would do it if you could. And certainly if you could find a way to turn that
into a Damien Lillard, I think you would try. I'm not sure they've got enough of what it takes to
go get him. It's going to be really interesting to see what they do. It's not an enviable situation
of being an even though again, they've been right on the doorstep now of titles, what three of the
last four years from the standpoint of either being in the finals or one game away from the finals
three times in the last four years. So that's hard to do, but I just don't I don't see exactly what
the move is here. I won't ever bet against them from that standpoint, but I don't see what the
move is. They they seem to somehow do their best work as a team on the court and a front office
with their backs up against the wall. Somehow they usually able to pull stuff out and it'll be
interesting to see if Riley has any rabbits left to pull out of the hat. I'm Claire Crofton and in my
new podcast The Fighting Pups, we're going out on the ice with the most violent hockey team ever.
That was guerrilla warfare at its highest. The Dumbroot Trashers wanted to win at any cost.
He wanted to break every bone in his body. Literally throwing him like a rag doll.
Going bananas here at the Dampery Ice Arena. They can't restrain him right now.
So are they heroes or villains? You decide. I don't know what to say and I don't want to get shot.
There's the FBI side. There's my side and somewhere in the middle is the truth.
Listen to The Fighting Pups on the IHART radio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Okay I want to end with just two real quick questions and I'll start with this one here
Herring I'll go to you just give me one thing you're looking forward to playing out this
offseason what are you kind of most interested uh keeping an eye on you know the draft only a
couple weeks away we could see some movements starting that night especially with Portland having
the number three pick so Herring I'll start with the what what are you keeping your eye on as we
head toward the offseason um there's a couple things I think the the point guard situation for a
lot of these teams is going to be really fascinating you've got first of all the Irving situation
and whatever the hell those reports have been on that we were just talking about Dame Van
Fleet just kind of said that he's gonna opt out which isn't a surprise um Chris Paul is another name
that you know all of a sudden it's like wondering basically who's gonna who's gonna run the team
and Phoenix as the point guard is is a massive question and one that I think if you answer it
correctly in your Phoenix might make them more compelling in the in the title conversation
for next year they obviously have a good team they need depth they need more consistency out of
that position they need more help too and I you know so if they move on from Chris Paul wouldn't be
terribly surprising but who are you replacing him with um so I'm very interested in that question
I think I'm also interested to see what happens directly behind the stuff with Wenmyama
in the draft do the Blazers trade that pick if they don't does that kind of essentially push
name out the door uh so you know again I think it all still sort of comes back to a lot of the
conversation around point guards in the way star point guards in this league are kind of going
to shuffle a little bit this offseason man it's not you yeah please yeah I would I would keep it
exclusive to Damien Lillard because uh I don't I think trading the thick report that would be a
mistake um you know some of the early reporting that I've seen has Charlotte leaning towards Brandon
Miller at number two in part because they already have Lamello ball at the point guard slot
I don't profess to be a draft expert but I think that would be a mistake because I've seen
a little bit of Brandon Miller uh mostly towards the end of his season and he's very good
I've seen more of Scoot Henderson and I think he's really good like I think he has the chance to be
something special and if he's on the board at number three you can't trade that pick to
get a player that'll ensure you closer to uh playoff success because I just I just don't think
there's a player that Portland can acquire that puts them on a championship level not not during
the two to three years we have of Damien Lillard playing at that championship level and I think
if you're the blazers if you're going to trade Damien Lillard now may be your best in last time to
do it because he's coming off a season where he was electric you know he is still an elite guy uh
his contract is big but everybody's contract is big nowadays I mean the number of guys are going to
be making you know 50 60 million dollars because they're going to grow significantly over the next
couple of years so it's not like that's this enormous albatross around the neck of teams if Damien
Lillard gets banged up this this has got to be the I think this has got to be the year Portland makes
a tough call and you know it says we've done everything we can to do a deal with Lillard but
we're going to talk to Miami we're going to talk to Brooklyn we're going to talk to New York we're
going to talk to Philadelphia and you know I'm sure there'll be a more more teams out there that are
in the mix but I feel like this is the year that Portland's got to find a way to to make the
tough decision and and move off him because it's not fair to him really to to kind of keep him
around on a team that's not going anywhere and for them it's just time like it's time to hit the
recent button it's time to use that top three pick which you you know the ping pong balls fell
your way and get the next franchise player and try to build out that way so you know he Damien
Lillard if and when he's traded has the you can be landscape altering like if he goes to Philadelphia
you know in a deal that involved let's say Tyrese Maxi in picks I'm man sixers with mb'd and Lillard
talk about two competitive guys playing at the highest level that's that's that's difficult he
winds up in New York I mean man going from a small stage in Portland to a massive one that's
the square guard would be interesting to see you know for Lillard he can be an impact player there
so he's the guy I'm watching in that situation that I'm going to watch the closest this offseason
yeah all very interesting I'll just add the Golden State Warriors to the mix we already saw Bob
Myers leave the architect of their championship teams dream on green has his player option what's
going to happen with drain well green is this kind of the beginning of the end are they going to
still try to build around their core three of Steph drain Clay and you know Clay's extension eligible
I'm not expecting a new deal for him this summer but I'm the dream on thing is going to be really
interesting because Bob Myers was a big advocate for him someone who he was really close to in that
front office now he's gone dream on this said what happened with Bob Myers would have an impact
on history agency decision so very curious to see what the Warriors come back looking like next year
because I do think they are in many ways Steph to me is the most interesting threat to the nuggets and
then I'll just end here I want to end with a question on Denver only because hey there they are the
champions it was such a fantastic run man I'll start with you this time what what will you remember
the most about this nougas team what kind of stands out to you about them when you put them in the
context of recent champions I just think what stands out is how they were able to take their game
to another level in the playoffs we nobody pushed this team further than six games you know
Yokech clobbering that Wil Chamberlain triple double mark for a postseason Jamal Murray you
know he finished the finals averaging 20 plus points and 10 plus assists the only other guys to do
are Michael Jordan magic Johnson and Lebron James so he entered a different stratosphere
Porter Jr. struggled in the finals but you know this team wouldn't be here if he wasn't the player he
was you know during the the conference playoffs Aaron Gordon you know continuing to you know
slide into that new role and being incredibly effective in I mean you know kids watching basketball
coming up should look at Aaron Gordon's play in the finals as an example of how to be
you know how being a role player is cool and how being a role player can be impactful what
did Aaron Gordon Gordon do in this series he defended and he cut and he took advantage of mismatches
like you know it's that's basketball 101 and I think his ability to do that you know was was
remarkable so really just how you know Miami on the Eastern Conference side took its game to
another level obviously but Denver even as the number one seed were able to elevate their games
to a different level to get them there yeah I think for me it's it's some of what Manick's got
into earlier just the stories behind this team between whether it's Murray and kind of the
stick to it of this to to come back from his injury if it's if it's Porter and in his was he
had three back surgeries at this point I think about Yokech in the start of his career he always had
talent but if you go back far enough you had people in Denver and fans and stuff like that that
wondered where they're making maybe the wrong call as far as him versus uh Nerkich when they both
were on the same team which is you know a little bit strange to look back at now but he was you
know Yokech for a while people said to him for years and said about him for years on Twitter everywhere
else he needs to lose weight um and you know that's been said about other players has been said about
Donchich and other guys uh and and Yokech did it and has basically been the size that he is ever since
and has been a guy that no matter how long the guy plays for he makes an impact uh he's been one
of the healthiest superstars in the league he's gotten better every year despite the fact that he's
basically the most efficient player in the game this was the most efficient season of his career
which looking back on it when we talk about MVP's and stuff like that there were some people that
were saying in the moment not I'm guilty of not having voted for him this year whereas I did last
year but they're you know the same way that people look back on certain years and they're like how did
this guy not win the MVP this one's going to be one of those cases that people look back on
like we can already say that given the way that this postseason run was um he perseveres and he
just fights and he keeps fighting and he stays with it um so I just think it's it's a complete team
it's a story of not just giving up when it would be easy to it would be easy to let go of a coach
when you have this mini 45 win seasons in a row without even making it to the finals um instead
they they stuck to it and they took the hard route and and and they got it done and and now we're
talking about the potential of a dynasty and I my column today on Sports Illustrated was just about
how all that stuff changes in an instant this was a work and progress for seven eight years for
this organization but now all of a sudden instead of talking about Yoke kitchen like whether he
deserves any of the MVP's he's gotten the idea that like he probably should have had this one too
and the idea that you know for a team that couldn't get it done it never won anything and they're
and they're franchise history now all of a sudden we're talking about a potential dynasty and
it all changes so quickly so simply but it was because they stuck with this for as long as they
did and they made so many of the right calls and they deserve all the credit in the world for that
yeah I'll just say I think what impressed me the most about the nuggets is they just had an answer
for everything this year and that is to me the hallmark of a great champion a hallmark of a great
playoff team especially you know think about the heat series alone it's like okay you want to go
zone we're gonna offensive rebound you to death we're gonna put Yoke it to the elbow make you defend
it with guards you are going to try to blitz your malmari okay we're gonna kill you with baseline
cuts once your defense tries to scramble you know defensively it's like you're gonna keep going
at Yoke it's like we are gonna keep adjusting his depth in the pick and roll and make you guys
take tough shots we're gonna stick to your shooters on the perimeter in a way that we didn't
in the first two games of the series just everything that was thrown their way they had an answer
for it they won defensive battles they won shootouts against the sons when Devin Booker looked like
he was never gonna miss again they just had an answer for everything and I think Yoke it's
individually had an answer for every narrative that was out there about him as a player in terms
of couldn't defend I thought he was the best condition player in the playoffs you know running
up and down the floor in altitude pushing the ball all the time you know outside of the very brief
ankle roll in game four and ever looking like he was hurt just he had an answer for every single
thing his critics would say he couldn't do in the playoffs and I understand the people who needed
to see it you know the people who needed to see it on the biggest stage and it just felt like
Yoke it's had an answer for every single one of those narratives so it's just an incredible run
it's a fun team I think it's good for the NBA when teams like this win it just it gives other
mid markets and smaller markets hope I think that they can maybe one day pull off a similar route
that will do it for this episode of the crossover though you know as everyone knows
things don't really slow down in the NBA the NBA draft is coming up very soon
Jaws going to get suspended forever coming up with the java rants ascension team
there was a there was by the way there was who was it our our twitter friend Josiah Jaws that
got the tweet of the night when me and some me and some me him up there about
java have waited to get suspended I wonder how long like I would imagine Adam Silver
gives it a couple of days but it is that that's like bro you know that's when the news cycle
you know it's new cycle breaks yeah like all the attention goes from Denver what it did
at bam it's our job red part of me thinks that this Friday it's gonna be bigger for people
than than the nuggets winning which is is I won't say it's sad because I also think there's a lot
more that goes into Jaws thing and and just he you know all the stuff that people have said about
Yoke it's in a lack of marketability or like like Jaws has been marketed heavily and it was just
starting to happen so now that this is upon us it's it's gonna get a ton of attention I'm slightly
confused that the league chose to handle it this way and that really I understand I understand
that Adam Silver was doing the media rounds he always does during the you know the playoffs and
during the finals it always happens but just basically leave it it's just this thing that's
just going to hover until after it's just because of that it's all we're talking about whereas
it could have been over before this no I I think you did the right thing because what was it he
said before game one they basically knew what they were going to do if he had announced between
games one and game two for three or four days that's all anyone would have been talking about you
flip on ESPN and it would have been few harsh two light what do the Grizzlies do uh it does
job or rent should he stay in Memphis like it would have been that would have dominated this new
cycle it just would have okay I mean fair enough I just think that it also would have been over by the
time the like before the finals had ended and and now I don't know maybe you want to stay in the
new cycle and also maybe they wanted to stay in the new cycle because they're going to drop the
hammer and if that's the I don't think so I think I think they if they could they you know
snap their fingers and make everybody stop talking about it after a day they would they would they
were just looking for look they don't they don't do it during the offseason that that's my whole
point because now the offseason that's all we have to talk about they were trying to do like they
didn't it's been so much there's so much attention on how look it's not Celtics and Lakers and all
everybody talking about you know smaller market teams in the finals you drop a bomb like a
John Moran suspension and it overshadows the games and and that's a that's fair that's the NBA
it's from the small market standpoint that's very fair there's no there's no stop in this
become something a massive story everything John Moran does at this point is it is just oxygen
consuming in the NBA media sphere I still think it's going to be 50 plus I really do like
right here about it I'll make my prediction like I've heard
there's 30 is the number that I've heard wow and be able to know from where I said okay all right
yeah I I don't think you know Adam still and we don't need to go off on this but Adam Silver
look he's been involving the players union every step of the way in this process which tells me
it's a it whenever it comes down it's going to be an agreed upon not that it has to be but it
will be an agreed upon number so that suggests to me it might be a little lower than some people
are anticipating but you know I think 30 30 to 35 he's going to be my prediction for this
suspension okay wow that would surprise me but you know you're right and it does seem I don't
know I think even the idea of that whole I don't know growing up if you hear that store if you
hear that voice from your parents in you're going to get it when you come home this was kind of
what that felt like and the idea makes it seem maybe more ominous than what it'll ultimately be
it's not to say 30 games is nothing but it really was sounding like oh you crossed us the first time
when you sat here stared me in my face and said you understood and you took accountability
and now you're going to do it right now you know during the playoffs you're going to embarrass us
like this oh no no we're going to come after you this time that was the impression I was getting
that I think a lot of us kind of felt like we were hearing from Adam Silver but we also haven't
seen him have to do this at all so there's really not much precedent for it from him specifically
not David Stern it was David Stern I feel like we would be seeing 50 plus and I thought maybe
that he was going to invoke his ghost for this punishment but maybe not if it's 30 then he's not
here I was thinking we just end the podcast on a line of lifting note oh at the Denver
guys are just here's nine notes all right I'll never stop going in on that note thank you guys as I
said you will be right back I'm sure it'll be a busy office in the least through
for agency thank you to everyone for listening all season and we will be back soon
in a new series from the teams at novel and iHeart Radio this is the fighting pups
we're going out on the ice with the most violent hockey team ever that was guerrilla warfare
at a highest were they heroes or villains you decide I don't know what to say and I don't want to
get shot welcome to the young girl listen to the fighting pups on the iHeart Radio app apple podcasts
or wherever you get your podcasts