Welcome back to another episode of The Cross Over podcast.
I'm Rohan Notcherny, joined today by my good friend, Sports Illustrated Senior Writer.
New York Times best-selling author of the book, Blood in the Garden.
He only lives in high rises.
Please welcome to the show, Chris Herring.
Herring house of going, buddy.
Man, this is straight up whatever you can, whatever you say can and will be
used against you. I literally just told you that like 12 seconds ago
in the context of tornado watches and stuff like that and being able to see them.
But I'm fine. I'm just looking forward to the
week being over. How are you?
I feel you, man. Always looking forward to the weekend.
I think that's the general vibe I give off.
We are, this is easily just like the worst, I wouldn't say the worst.
No, I take that back. Windwarden's going on. We got the WNBA going on.
It's a very slow time for like the conventional American sports fan.
And yet here we are doing an NBA podcast in the middle of July.
Summer League is over going on. I don't know. I don't pay attention to Summer League.
We've discussed that on this podcast before.
But there are a few things I would like to discuss with you today, Chris.
We did get a little bit of news confirmed this week.
This was something that had been rumored to be happening
over the last few weeks and now it is going to be official for the 23-24 season.
Flopping technicals will be introduced.
A technical, for an obvious flop and coaches will have an extra challenge
if they get their first challenge right. Chris, where do you want to start with this?
The challenges of the flopping. Which one's more interesting to you?
I mean, what I really want to talk about is whether people can challenge
whether something should have been called a flop.
You know, whether we can get after the fact,
technicals, after coaches, but I mean, we can start with either.
I think both are, I mean, just in a general sense, I think both are positive things.
I think I don't know of anyone that wasn't in favor of the idea of coaches getting an extra
challenge when they're correct. I think the NFL has had that for a while at this point.
And it doesn't feel like everybody should get the same number
if Summer using them and they're wrong constantly and other guys are right.
So I think there should be a reward to it. But we can start with either one.
I guess I just kind of start talking about one a little bit there.
You know, I may actually zag on this a little bit.
I don't know that I want coaches to get the extra challenge.
So it's funny because Spowe was asked about this during the finals.
Somebody said, I think it was actually a pregame press conference. It was kind of funny.
And somebody asked Spowe what he thought about the rumored potential rule change.
And at first, he was like, I like it. That makes sense.
And then he goes, I will get annoyed, though, because players will keep doing that replay signal.
Oh, even more now. We see guys who are so egregious with the finger twirl,
like first quarter out of bounce call. They're calling for a coach to challenge it.
That obviously doesn't annoy me as much as the idea of introducing another stoppage to the game.
Yeah. Well, here's the thing, though. I mean, I hear that side of it.
In some ways, though, I would think that it makes coaches more judicious about what they're going to challenge.
Because if you know, and particularly about the idea of using it in the first quarter,
it has to be like clearly the wrong call to go for it at that point.
If you're not going to get it back, it's already abundantly important the idea of whether you're
going to use it or not. But if I would probably be even more likely to kind of block out my players,
if I know that not only can we potentially get this call fixed, but I'm going to get an extra one,
if I'm right, it kind of puts more onus on the coaches to really know what they're asking for a review
on and not have it be just the run of the mill play. You know, it's kind of a double whammy.
And that way, I would think. Yeah, that's an interesting argument that I haven't heard before.
The idea that if they get the extra only if they're right, they have to now be very sure if
they're going to use it earlier in the game. That makes sense. I'm very curious to see
how this ends up playing out because there are some coaches like Spau who just seem to hate using
the challenge and save it for the very end of the game almost always. And you know, there are
others who wasn't the challenge to call on the first quarter of a playoff game this year. Was it
Darvin Ham? Gosh, or what thing was booting holds her? It was booting holds her.
That cut it was out right to be honest with you. There are some guys who seem to use it just to
get it out of the way. Like, if I use it now, my players can't complain about it later in the game.
Yeah. Do you think the flopping tech is the kind of rule that we'll see a lot in the first month
of the season and then never see again? Or do you think that it'll actually stand the test at
time? I think we'll see some a little bit more beyond just the first month. First of all, I wouldn't,
like if you asked me to guess how many will be called or how often it will happen, I would have no
clue. But I mean, it's like anything where people are still going to test the theory and they're
going to need to get it out of their system, whether it was Chris Paul and Hardin and all these
other guys that were essentially doing their very best to bait refs and to calls, to draw calls
by trying to find contact basically and trying to induce contact in ways where they were the
person doing it and not anybody else. It was really jarring to be honest with you to watch.
What was it two years ago when that was first put into effect with the offensive valves and everything
and the idea that stuff just wasn't going to be called at all when it was going to be called seven,
eight times a game previously. It makes guys look silly and so I think that there will need to be
that for probably a month or two when I think about even the guys that are good defenders, Marcus
Smart, the Blake Griffins, the guys that take a lot of charge, Kyle Lowry was guilty of plenty of
flops, even in the finals, you know, to a lot of people's for sure, but these, but these,
but these, Chris, how dare you Kevin, Kevin love. Well, Kevin loves normally don't look like
flops to be asked with me, but he's taking flops. He's right. So, so that's the thing is like he's
taking legitimate hits, but that's the thing is I think it also sets up guys that just line
themselves up to take a lot of charges are going to be a lot of the people that might get hit with
these because sometimes even if you don't get the amount of contact you're expecting,
you're going to preemptively try to fall and start to fall and start to have it look a certain way.
So, so we'll see. That'll be really interesting to watch. Again, I don't know which direction it will
go. I would imagine that it'll kind of peter out over the course of the season. Maybe it's more
abrupt than that where it's just, you know, the first three weeks refs are really aggressive
about calling it like they generally are and they're generally coached to do that and told to do
that. And it might set an example very quickly. Nobody, you know, we talk about challenges and stuff.
Okay, a challenge depending on what it is might not cost you points as much as just an inconvenient
foul or foul trouble on someone that you really want to have available. A technical foul is points.
A technical foul is points potentially the ball as well. I guess it's a flicker anyway.
It's interesting to think about and it'll be interesting to see how quickly that shifts
kind of the thought process on all of it too. If this rule was in place two years ago,
do you think the Boston media mafia still would have been able to vote Marcus Smart defensive
player of the year? I mean, but also let's be real in saying that they weren't the sole reason
he won the award. I mean, also, I voted for the guy too. It was a successful, it was a successful
propaganda campaign. In all seriousness, let me ask you this question. Who are you, which player
are you most interested to see play under the flop tech era? I mean, I think a lot of guys have
kind of grown out of it a little bit, but I mean, like Patrick Beverly has been interesting before.
And I'm pretty sure he was one of the last people to get hit with a warning if I remember correctly.
The league still issues those every once in a blue moon. And I think he's gotten a few of them.
I also think he's just my standard answer for a lot of questions as far as funny stuff is concerned
flops going to the crowd to go get a camera and show the ref that something was a foul. You name it.
So I'll put Patrick Beverly on the top. God, the camera thing was unbelievable. That was surreal.
I am very interested to see how this, because we know the defensive irritants, we know the
Chris Pauls of the world who are, I don't even know if their floppers necessarily much is they like
to push the envelope and test the referees. I'm very interested to see how they're calling
these flop techs for star players because anytime LeBron gets one, if he gets one, it's going to be
a huge deal. It's going to be, it's going to lead first take when he gets his first flop tech.
And I'm very interested to see if the refs are really willing to hand these out to star players,
because I don't know. I have my doubts that they're going to be willing to really take a risk there.
I may be the first couple weeks of the season. And then we have to, like, when this,
if this happens in a playoff game, Chris, it's going to be pandemonium.
Man, all of a sudden, as we talk about flop techs and technical foul kings, obviously
Rashid Wallace is kind of in a league of his own, but it now has me curious about how many certain
people would have had, whether certain people would have pushed Rashid Wallace's technical foul record.
I mean, obviously, they wouldn't, again, we're talking about how the behavior is going to
shift once they really hammer down on this in the first few weeks, but it's just funny to think
about. It's also really funny, because it's like, we, in our mind, we know who the,
some of the abusers of it have been in the past, but there's no official record keeping of it.
Right. So it's like, it's all just kind of, even when you ask me, like, who are you really looking
forward to seeing or who are you most curious about? I mean, it's just, it's, it's just kind of
lore at this point, as far as the way we think about it, because it's just like, oh, we all know
that Marcus Smart has done it. We all know Patrick Beverly has done it. We all know, you know, Chris
Paul. So it's like, we, but we think about these guys as people that are on the floor a lot in
star players. One of the most fun, kind of weird stories I remember working on as when I was with
538 was about, I wasn't interested in the sheer number of charges people took.
Nessarily, they started calculating that one point throughout the league. I wanted to know who was
the most successful charge taker? Like, who is the guy that most often takes charges and never gets
called for blocks? And so I, you know, I ended up almost like creating a statistic for a season
called charge rate. And I think that Anthony Tolliver was the guy that like never got called for
block. That's funny. And so that speaks to what you're saying about Kevin Love is like, he's not
really flopping. Like, he's just really, really good at taking position. And, and, you know,
lo and behold, and interviewing him for the story, Anthony Tolliver was like, well, yeah,
when I was in college, our coach had us practice it as a team, like every one of us. And we would
win awards for whoever took the most at the end of the season. So I got four years to practice it,
then got to the pros and continued to practice it. So there are reasons some guys are better than
others, but this is a really good incentive to not try to take one unless you're not even,
not even just charges, by the way, we're talking about flopping, not charges. But the idea that
obviously that is a place where people are going to try to flop a lot. And we've seen any number.
The funniest ones to me are always the ones where someone is in proximity of someone's elbow.
And then, you know, they just, they were they snapped their head back. And then when you see,
and the analysis react really strongly to it. And then you watch the replay and it's a phantom,
it's phantom contact. So those will be interesting. And again, we're just going to have to see if like,
how quickly is the line drawn? I'm sure the refs are going to be on edge to call it. And maybe that
kind of nips it in the bud right away. But I think it's a positive rule change. And I think,
you know, the leak, it's weird to get props and shout outs to the league because this is probably
overdue. We all knew that this should have been part of the game before. But similar to last year
with regards to the take files, it did seem to make the game better and faster and less stoppages.
And so hopefully this won't be less stoppages right away. But hopefully it just cleans up the game
and and ridz it of something that I think most people were pretty annoyed by.
First of all, I don't like when you talk about the super cool stuff that you used to have 538.
It feels like you're kind of comparing me to an X. And it's like, look at how much, you know,
how much more fun I was having. We were so much more adventurous. Number one. Number two.
Number two. I I'm also interested in how it's applied. Like, are they going to be calling
these texts in real time? Are they going to be going back and looking at the monitor and saying,
oh, this in the first quarter, this was a flop. And now you're getting a tech for it.
Who who's going to be the first player to be ejected from a game? Because one of their
texts was a flop tech. That's going to be really interesting. I just think about that part.
Yeah, there's just there's a lot that's going to go on in this. And I think it's going to be
very fun. Chris, I'm going to have to rewire a little bit. I mean, they really are and it's
really interesting to me that like people that have played a sport for however long they played it.
I mean, Chris Paul, I was writing a story on him that's up now. I think he's 38, man. And like,
he's been doing what he does for quite a while. It's it requires a rewiring to not, you know,
as we've seen with a lot of the guys as far as trying to draw, fouls and draw,
defensive fouls on guys. And it's it requires a reset a little bit of just mentally. And
I want to say it was hard. And I remember Lillard had a really slow start too.
A few guys just of trying to adjust to the idea that you weren't going to get certain foul calls
anymore that the rip through was another one. You know, it's it'll be a hard reset for certain
people. But I but I would imagine within a few weeks or a month, a month and a half that,
you know, that people are able to kind of stop doing it. But the the idea of someone getting
ejected over a second tech that's a flop is hilarious. And that chef's Twitter will never it
Twitter still exists. It will be a good time. I'm going to be I'm going to be talking about it on
Blue Sky for sure. I want to discuss something I'm writing about for SI that should be up
later today. Hopefully by the time all of you are listening to this podcast. But I'm just writing
about some new lineups. I'm excited to see this season Chris. You know, the dust is not fully
settled on free agency as much as some of our friends in the industry like our frenemy,
Michael Pinar trying to will Damien Liller to other teams besides the he the raptors.
We are interesting. It isn't interesting. We are still waiting on Dam
to land somewhere. But I would say we are getting a good sense now of what the league
is going to look like next year. How these teams are taking shape. So I just wanted to run through
some new combinations. We're excited to see this year. I don't know if you want to go first.
If you have one right now, you're fingertips that you want to talk about or if you'd like me to
drop my first line up. Okay. I think this is the ones that we're most intrigued by are most
interested in seeing. Okay. I didn't know if it was like saying the ones we think will be best
or anything. Okay. Okay. No, no, no. I mean, this is what I wrote about today. I might as well
just roll it out. Just Chris Paul with the Warriors because it's like, do we expect him to be a
starter? When he was traded there, I immediately just assumed he's going to be a bench guy.
Right. Just because they've had essentially one of the most effective starting line-ups in the league
for a few years. It's not the death lineup or anything like that, but it's got a little bit
of everything. Obviously, anytime Steph and Claire on the court had shooting, it's got defense from
the standpoint of loony being out there. We've seen how well he moves his feet even at the top of
the key against guys and switches. We've seen Dremon play at defensive player at the year levels.
Andrew Wiggins is kind of the cherry on top for them. We saw how much they struggled without him.
And quite frankly, I wouldn't say that was the sole reason that they didn't get further
in last year's playoffs, but you saw that they could win a championship with him on the court.
He's their best defender at this point on the wing. Who were you pulling out of that lineup to
insert Chris Paul into it? I could see doing it, but I just don't know. I imagine you're going to
take out either loony or Wiggins. Neither one of those is something that I'm looking forward to
doing. I'm not looking forward to replacing either of them. Chris Paul, and I did, I realized this
until I was reading Anthony Slater's story over at the athletic. Chris Paul has never not even once
in his career come off the bench. He has had essentially the longest streak to start a career
without ever coming off the bench. Crazy. And not to mention that earlier this week, he was
interviewed out in Vegas and was asked the question of what he thinks of the second unit and what he
would think of leading it. And he literally shot back, you coached question mark to the person who
asked the question. So, you know, and granted, it was ingest. And then he said, look, we haven't
talked about that yet. It's not the sort of thing you would talk about in a getting to know you
conversation, like in a first conversation with someone over the phone. Look, I think ultimately,
if you're just asking my opinion, I think it will be best for Chris Paul to come off the bench.
If not right away, then at some point, because we've already seen this lineup be effective,
Chris Paul is not getting any younger. So, he's, while he's incredibly cerebral, and we all know
that, including on the defensive end, I don't see him boosting them as much defensively as either
of the two guys that he could potentially replace. To be honest with you, if he was going to replace
anyone, I would maybe say it should be Clay, but I don't think that makes sense for them either.
So, I just don't know that the upside of including him on offense over one of those guys makes
enough sense. But egos are a thing. I would imagine that if anybody can set aside their ego,
it would be a guy who desperately wants to win his first championship. With the team that has
already won four of them, with a core that has already won four of them. I think he can get over
it, but I don't think it's as simple as just snapping your fingers and it's done. I think even his
press conference from earlier this week hinted at that. There's pride there. But because of that push
pull, because of the fact that the Warriors had the most turnovers in the league, and Chris Paul,
even at his aging spot in his career, is a four and a half to one assists a turnover ratio
in his career. They could desperately use his ball handling and his sense of calm with the
team. He's also still a very good mid-range shooter. He's a very good change of pace for them,
as far as all the picking roles he runs, for a team that doesn't really use many of them. I think
that could be really useful off their bench. I think it could be very useful with their starters,
quite frankly. But I think it will be a fascinating thing to watch, because they've already
got a really good start in group. How does he fit in with that or how does he not and where do you
use him? I'm really intrigued by that. That's one of my biggest questions for any team this year.
For sure. I do think Chris Paul will eventually come off the bench, even if it doesn't happen
right away. I would say the majority of his games this year will be off the bench, and that's
where it really helps to have someone like Steph Curry, who was willing to come off the bench in a
multiple playoff games. When you have someone like that, I think setting the tone. I also think
Chris Paul is going to get a lot of good minutes to run with that second unit. It could be an
interesting group. You got Looney, Saurich, Kaminga, Gary Payton, Moses Moody. They'll have some good
pieces to move around in that second unit. I think he'll get a chance. I think he'll relish those
opportunities because he'll have an opportunity to put his stamp on the game with the second unit
in a way he won't with the first unit. I think that'll be really interesting. I think that's
definitely lineup I'm looking forward to. Let me go maybe a little off the board for you here.
This is a lineup I'm interested to see this year. I had no idea if it'll be good.
Let's go to Dallas. We have Kyrie and Luca, Grant Williams, Maxi Cleva,
and Dante Exum. Everyone's talking about how Dante Exum allegedly found his three point shot in
Europe. He was shooting close to 40% from three. Who knows? Here's the thing. People will sit
here with one face and tell you this guy was killing in Summer League. But then you say someone
shot 40% from three in Europe and they're like, oh, but here's my thing. I'm not making that
face with Summer League. I know. I know you are. I know you are. But I'm definitely not going to.
Yeah. So that's what that's the thing is I just want to see it. If Exum can shoot,
I would like to see it. Exactly. This is like the second or the third straight pocket.
It's one of the best. It's one of the best. Listen, if Exum can defend and even if he's not,
if he's just shooting average from three because he was never a great three point shooter,
if they can get up to 30, if he can get up to 34, 35%. That becomes a really interesting two-way line-up
because I think Exum becomes a good defender. Williams is a good defender. Cleba is not a
traditional rim protector, but he holds up well in switches and I think it's pretty good on the
defensive end and underrated guy. You're always going to have to deal with Kyrie and Luca, but that
that interests me a little bit. I think that's a potentially higher ceiling lineup than some of the
other options the maps have had in the last couple of years. Yeah. I mean, it's intriguing.
Manics and I talked about that on the last podcast we did, I think, about the idea of he was asking
me what I thought of their summer and I said, look, I don't, you know, up until the Grand William
stuff, I did not love their summer. I think we could all admit that Kyrie came back at a higher
number and not even just that, really just the length of the contract and the guaranteed nature of
it. The player option in year three was not something I would have wanted to do, would have felt
comfortable with. But I mean, Dante Exum, I think, is exactly the sort of player that if you're Dallas,
what are you losing by rolling out that opportunity to him? I'd love Dante Exum for as long as I
can remember from the standpoint of the guy just defense. I also have a huge soft spot for
another guy that I think is still on their roster in Frank Milke and I don't know if he's still there.
But Franky smokes. I've always had soft spots for guys that really, really defend their
butt off and give their very best effort. You always kind of, for me, hope springs eternal that
the shooting will find its way to them that work on it enough, but also that maybe they're in the
right environment where you can afford to have a non shooter on the quarter or shooter that's
not great on the court because they do other stuff so well. Dante Exum, first of all, is a great
defender, great effort, works hard, but also from what I remember was playing very well when he got
hurt the last time and it might have been accurate the last two times. And so it wasn't like he lost
the opportunity because he wasn't showing improvement or that he wasn't playing well or playing
hard. His body was giving out repeatedly. So it might happen again here. He might not develop. He
might have regressed in some ways because of all this stuff. Time will tell, but I think it was
like a spot on sort of opportunity that the maps need to take because they really don't have
many other routes to improve the team and they're desperately need more defense. Grant Williams was
obviously a way to address that. And what I thought was a very reasonable number. So I think
that that could be a really good lineup for them. I think we have to see. I think that there's
no reason they shouldn't be able to score. Even if it's just Luca and Kyrie by itself, you should
be able to score. But if Grant Williams is given the green light and he actually takes it and shoots
and shoots anywhere near what he did last season percentage wise could be a very, very fruitful lineup
for them. So I like for sure. Cleaver can shoot too. Do you have another one or do you want me to go
again? I'll give you one more. Okay. Okay. So we're going to go to the Midwest where I know you are
right now tomorrow. Not necessarily Chicago. But look at one state over. We'll go to Indiana.
I'll give you Tyrese Halliburton. Let's see here. Bruce Brown. Bruce Moneybags Brown.
Buddy Heeled. O.B. Top and Miles Turner. So you've just you've got I mean you've got a team now that is
you've got and what was that stat that they showed when the Bruce Brown deal got completed?
Well the O.B. deal got completed. I think ESPN had it in one of their stories and it was like
Tyrese Halliburton, Bruce Brown and O.B. Top and and some order I can't remember which over the
last two seasons are have been the most efficient players and like the highest percentile in transition
over the last two years. So this is a team that has the ability to play really fast.
Will they hemorrhage a little bit on defense? Probably a little. Like I mean I think Bruce Brown
and Miles Turner are fine defenders. I think Halliburton and Heeled and Top and are probably not.
But but this is the team that already plays fast and now you're adding two guys that absolutely
will help you kind of forge a track meet if you want. They're going to be really really difficult
to stop. You've got a lot of ball handling in a group with a group like that. You've got a lot of
guys that are going to race up and down the floor and you've got a pretty good amount of shooting
between Halliburton, Buddy Heeled, Miles Turner, O.B. Top and's not a bad shooter and certainly
Bruce Brown is not a bad shooter either. I mean like the I've all five of those guys can shoot.
I you know I like the idea of kind of seeing what you can get out of that group just you know
running other teams dry it basically. So I'm excited to see it just because it'll be a lot of fun
for a team that is already pretty fun but also a team that you know they're going to be some
elements of what the what the Kings did last year just as far as how fast this team is going to
play how much shooting they have on the floor at times. It's going to be a lot of fun.
That's a very interesting pick. I like it a lot. Halliburton could also be interchangeable
with someone like Ben Mathurin and that configuration. And the transition stats are really good one.
That's really interesting. Indy will have to have a more serious discussion about them at some
point because they're looming as an interesting team especially if they go out and try to get someone
like Pascal see outcome. Yeah. That would be a lot of fun man. I would. Halliburton was obviously
fantastic last season. I love them bringing in Bruce Brown and I think that's a great deal for both
sides. They're very interesting. That's one that's that's really like a new group like I have no
idea how it's going to look and I'm with you. It's a it's a it's a small group too but that's the
kind of line of like regular season especially. You run that out against the right team on the
wrong night for them and you're just like you said it's a track meet and they're running them off
the floor and it's going to be really hard to slow a group like down group like that down. That's
a really fun pick. Let me hit you with a couple more. Let's stay in the Midwest about a team you
wrote about this week and let me start here. Do you think the calves will have the stomach to play
Max Truce and George Neang together a lot this regular season because because the lineup I would
like to see is Garland Mitchell Struce Neang and Evan Mobley. Oh that's a fun one. Well here's the
thing and I mean not seeking to be controversial here. I mean I think some calves fans would tell
you they'd probably like to see it too. If you decided to move off of Jared Allen that's your lineup
right? That's what you would be doing and then you would be trading Allen either for another presumably
like another really good wing player. But you have Struce there that I imagine he probably slots into
that 5th starter spot. You still need depth and that's where the team has been weak. They were
really really bad. They were the worst bench team in the playoffs and I think they were maybe the
worst or second worst in terms of scoring. They were worst or second worst in the regular season as
well. So I mean it's hard to look at and this was kind of what I said and my story about them is
like this was a really nice offseason for them but they still need more. Neang is capable of
starting. We've seen him do it with Philly. We've seen him in other situations too in Utah.
He can start. I think he was actually like it was not thought I had in mind before the offseason
but he was about his perfect like body type wise and just roll basically a younger version of
like a Kevin Love type within the standpoint of like what Kevin Love does now. He was about
as good a replacement as you could really get and I thought got him again for like a reasonable
number. I think it was what three for 26 in his case. I thought it was a very very smart deal for
them. He could start. Now you would only need to start him if you're not going to play one of Alan
or Mobley and obviously you're going to start them both. They both then all start but the question
that I think a lot of us had is like are they going to bring Alan back? You would obviously keep
Mobley given his upside but just the lineup itself regardless of whether Alan has kept
you can use the data from that lineup to make a decision about whether you feel like it makes
sense to keep Alan long term. Move them at the deadline. Move them next offseason. It's a fascinating
look at something and something that really even when I wrote that story had not really considered
but you can bet your bottom dollar that the calves are going to be paying a lot of attention to that
lineup data with that group if they get chances to play them. If that group is healthy and they're
able to play them together a lot. For sure. I'm just really interested to see it. I'm with you. I do
think I don't want to be out on the calves two big lineup after one postseason but they're on a
little bit of a clock because of the Mitchell contract. It's not so simple. It's going to be a very
expensive team if they try to keep everyone together. Garland, Mitchell, Mobley, all going to be on
Big Max's. If Jeremy Grant had not signed such a huge contract I kind of think like an Alan
for Grant something around that center to round that would have been very interesting.
Just like the language is speaking today man. I feel like we're reviving over these 100. There we go.
There we go. That's the kind of player they need and that would be a very interesting look
for them to have but it's also I'm also just not sure if Mobley is going to be more of a
four five or three four which is a big question right yeah a big question for them and that's
going to have to play out this season so they're they're very interesting. I think that
like as much as I like Struse and obviously like I think the deal made sense. You watch your mouth
whatever you want to say about Max Struse. That's Eastern Conference. That's Eastern Conference
Champion Max Struse. I don't like I think that it was I understand what they're doing. I think
that he could be a huge pay off for them. I think that the way a lot of us a lot of people in
general are thinking about him is slightly inflated due to the playoff runs. I agree. And he
all sorts to them was not a knock down shooter necessarily during this last playoff run.
That's my only point is that he like he's been a perfectly fine. She's been a slightly above
league average shooter basically for his career. Now granted that's in a lineup where it's pretty
equal opportunity Jimmy Butler even for everything he does is not someone that dominates the ball
in that offense. He's someone that more does it in key moments. But for a team where you've got
so much attention that is going to be devoted to the two lead guards on that team you can imagine
how many kick out passes they're going to be you know at some point maybe mobile is commanding
double teams. Alan probably is not that sort of guy. But Max Truce is going to be in position to
take a lot of open shots potentially. And I think what was always so important about this team
dating back to last season when they got Mitchell was whoever that fifth guy is is going to need
to be able to hit shots. And so like there's a part of me that like in a perfect world if he was
healthy and I know the pistons just picked him up. And I know Michael Michael Pino was was not critical
but he was saying like this might not be the payoff that the pistons were thinking was Joe Harris
would be a really good fit like a prime Joe Harris like a not down shooter Joe Harris and a lineup
like that would have been perfect. Now I understand he's been banged up I understand he's regressed
a little bit. But Max Truce is like he's he's a good pickup for them but I don't know if it's a
great pickup yet. If he develops into a better shooter than he's been then it's a home run signing
for them. And even if it's not I don't think that it was a bad sign I think it was something sensible
but I do think that there there was a like I think Grant the way you were talking about him is like
he's kind of if Keras Leverd if you could kind of mold him a little bit more he's exactly what
Grant is like what you would hope Keras Leverd can become is what Grant is. And I think that that
prototype would have been interesting to watch them to someone that can play make a little bit
create his own shot a little bit but also can knock down and more than enough shots to make it
worthwhile to kick the ball to him. And so you know I'm really excited about the Neang pickup
I actually feel better about that for them than than I do about the Truce one but I understand
that Truce fits a need for them particularly when he's playing at his best so we'll see how it goes.
It's going to be very interesting because they have more options for that fifth die now but
they still I still feel like they need one more. Yep they still don't have a great wing defender
they have two great interior defenders and maybe Moby you know becomes that perimeter lockdown
guy and we've seen Truce go after fours in the playoffs during these heat runs and maybe that's
a configuration that works for them but it's still kind of finding that right two way piece which
is going to be interesting for them. Yeah I hope Coro continues to keep shooting a little bit of
rhythm and the playoffs against the Nixie looked a little bit more comfortable after game two
I think it was after he started to you know came off the bench for a part of that but I they need
a little bit more and I think you know there's something about the way they lost in that Nix series
where it's like they're not running it back necessarily but getting Max Truce and even getting
Neang who's very very involved and physical but I think it's just someone that's more willing
to like give up his body and more willing to kind of get into the mix. I don't know that they
added even with Truce like playing for a team like they I don't think they added like enough
toughness particularly in the post considering the way they got pushed around in that Nix series
so I'm curious but you're right like I think it would have been a little bit too reactionary to
just scrap that core or scrap a piece of that core when they had the second best net rating in the
league and it's basically the second straight year where they've been like right at the top net
rating wise they certainly were for most of last year too so I don't think you can give up on
that but who knows and in Donovan Mitchell's there maybe in some ways they are going to become
a repeat of what we saw with the jazz were on paper on the regular season in the metrics show
that they are consistently one of the best teams but they just don't have it come playoff time
they just don't have the adjustments they just don't have the depth through the roster so we'll
see it'll be an interesting year for them let's run through a few more than I have just quickly
here just because I think they're interesting and these are this one's really interesting because
it's a one-for-one swap so we can compare it directly to how this lineup performed last season
I there's a couple of those but Memphis jaw, bane, Jared Jackson Jr. Stephen Adams and then Marcus
smart taking over the Dylan Brooks spot that's going to be interesting because that's that's been a
good lineup for Memphis the last couple seasons and it'll be very interesting to see how smart
works out there the Celtics Derek White, Jalen Brown, Jason Tatum, Al Horford, Chris Stapps,
Wresengus I have to imagine that'll be their opening night starting lineup
and then I'll give you one more the Lakers can roll out Austin Reeves, Gabe Vincent, Torian Prince,
LeBron James, NAD I'd expect to see that group play a healthy amount especially in the post
season which one of those kind of perks your ears up the most I mean I think it maybe it doesn't
have to be but I think the one I would pick and also is most interesting because of just the
suspension part as Joe like the Memphis lineup where we're not going to see it for a while
right yeah you know and that's without even taking into account the job often is injured and other
guys in that lineup are injured but it also gives them like a more stabilizing force then
you know how would I put this I don't it's not a hot take or anything but but Dylan Brooks was
flimsy from the standpoint of he was too he's a lot of parts and he's inconsistent yeah period so
that's even better way to putting it than saying flimsy he was a wild card yeah that highs are high
but the lows are low right and he and he tapped into a lot of that I think some some of it was
intentional just as far as the decision making or the sorts of moments where you're kind of like
you want guys to play with an edge but you can't reel it in with him sometimes and he played
into the villain role but it's like okay but when it's hurting you on the court or when you're
like when you're kind of baiting the opponent by by saying you know by essentially calling out
LeBron and doing other things over the course of a series there's a time and a place and I trust
Marcus smarts ability to know the time in the place more to to be better about it right there's
a certain aspect of leadership that he brings that Dylan Brooks maybe he was a leader but you know
very clearly from the way that stuff was handled with Memphis the report that they weren't bringing
him back and that they told him that it accident interviews and that it leaked there were all sorts
of suggestions that they did not view him as a leader if if he was no knock on him but it certainly
wasn't enough to kind of to hold jaw accountable you know or not even accountable but just to kind
of make sure that he was doing what he needed to do off the court and who knows again I'm not sure
that leadership means that because you're leading the team that that stuff can't happen Steven Adams
was said to have have made mention of some of the stuff directly maybe not to jaw specifically
but to the team about behavior and off court behavior and focus so it's no knock if Marcus smart can't
reel that in but I I think there's a better chance of some of it being more in line both between his
presence and the fact that jaw has now been dinged for this twice but we're gonna have to see it's a
team that just having Brandon Clark back and having Steven Adams back alone would have been
interesting enough but adding Marcus smart into that mix someone who at his best has been a
better shooter than Dylan Brooks but has also struggled with his shooting relative to recent years
the last couple years I think he's also generally speaking a more consistent defender than Dylan
Brooks is Dylan Brooks was never defensive player the year or anything like that or in that conversation
really he was you know an all defensive team pick but not not really as consistently at the level
that Marcus smart was so I'm very interested to see it I'm very interested to see there being like
another closer to full-time ball handler um Marcus smart is such a good pickup for them just
because jaw's gonna miss all that time anyway they obviously lost ties Jones he's gonna be one of
the most important players in the league this season for all sorts of reasons and I think depending
on how effective he is there this could be one of the veteran pieces that they're missing to kind of
make the job I still feel like they might need one more shooter um you know and maybe even one more
guide to replace uh ties Jones just for when Marcus smart is not on the floor I went while they're
missing jaw but uh it's he's gonna be a fascinating fit and you're like you said it's one to one so
it's very interesting to see it's gonna be very interesting I yeah man fits man that's gonna
just gonna be a strange season to say play see play out just see what John missing so much time
up front you mentioned Brandon Clark I'm curious when Brandon Clark is gonna be healthy to play
because he had that Achilles start pretty late in the season but someone who was obviously very
forgotten come playoff time that I think it's gonna make a big difference for them hopefully he's
healthy and ready to go when he comes back and not having kind of a prolonged effect from that Achilles
injury I just want to talk about the Lakers real quick I just think Gabe Vincent is like the perfect
point guard to put next to LeBron because he can handle the ball but he doesn't need to handle the
ball that he's effective as a pick and roll operator but he can catch and shoot in space the floor
although his three point percentage last year and I mean the heat shooters thing it's just hard
to know what's real what's not because he shot so well in the playoffs within the regular season he
was kind of right at league average I think probably below league average I think around 33% so
those guys were all two to three points lower than what I thought like when you actually
look at their basketball references like they're much closer to league average shooters but also
again the the influence of the playoffs particularly when you have a long run like that everybody's
value and it's not to knock them at all but it's it's a little inflated like they also
to a team like the Lakers that might want playoff performance to be better than regular season
performance given where they are the thing is he also has you know previous seasons where he
shot better so I guess we'll get we'll get more information and find that reality but Tori
and Princess someone I'm just to see play for a really good team because he just fits that 3 and
D mold and yet he's bounced around the league so much and this seems like his best opportunity
playing off LeBron and AD and I'm interested to see the battle that could emerge between him
and Hachimura in terms of who takes to the fifth spot and closing line up because I do think
Vincent and Reeves will be in there just because of what they offer on both ends of the floor
and I think Prince versus Rui is going to be an interesting kind of subplot to the Lakers season
because obviously Hachimura got the money played really well in the post season last year
but you want to talk about small sample size when we've just never seen that from Hachimura
to consistent level in his career so that's what I think my own yeah I mean and to what we were
saying about ups and downs and shooting Tori and Prince was was a guy that when they picked him up
it's easy to forget about him just because he's been he's moved around but also the teams he's
been on in some cases have moved so many guys around that he hasn't really had a consistent
perch to hang from he's been really consistent as a shooter his whole career like right around
37 38 occasionally a little bit higher maybe one year a little bit lower but that's the sort of guy
that you really look forward to plugging into a group where again you know LeBron is going to see
two defenders at times when he's going to the basket 80 is going to command two defenders just
because he's 80 particularly playing at the level he did last year so every time we've kind of
looked at the Lakers and said what's wrong with them it's always been a function of whether they
had spacing or not whether it was the Russell Westbrook era whether it was before they won
you know their championship and the idea of like well why don't you just add spacing to it and then
they go out and they have a whole offseason where they dedicate the whole team the you know KCP and
everybody else what do you know they went a championship and so that's always been the formula for
this team Austin Reeves developing the way he has like you said he's probably a mainstay at this
point and he should be because of what he can do drawing fouls getting to the basket cutting
shooting um they're going to be really interesting to watch like I don't think that they're the favorite
they shouldn't be um but they also can't be far from that conversation certainly we're talking about
who comes out of the West um I want to wrap up today's show with just a quick question here
and it's simple yeah not so simple we just you know we spent all this time asking about new line-ups
teams are excited to see who's your number one championship contender right now
it's cheap but I mean I just looking at what Denver did I'm I'm certainly curious how Denver looks
without Bruce Brown that's you know and Jeff Green had big moments for them you're you're right you're
totally right so I mean it's it's it's really easy to say Christian Brown just kind of slots in
I mean he's he was a rookie man like it's not he was fantastic he had brighter moments and we can
ever realistically expect from rookies but you know is it a side of things to come in might be but
it might not be consistent it might not be in an everyday role where he's playing 25 minutes
so you know I will still pick them as my top contender but certainly I've got questions
certainly we've now seen what the nuggets can do when they are fully healthy but they also
haven't been fully healthy aside from last year you know in a while so uh you know Yokech has been
extremely healthy for years now and I hope it stays that way but it's not a given so I'll pick
them but but do it you know just because more out of a show respect because I do want to see how
this club looks next season just without a couple key guys off their bench but also what happens
if they're not healthy so that would be my top pick what about yours I think I have to go with
the nuggets as well just had a difference for Joker it's interesting because I think the Celtics
got a tiny bit worse but will still be really good the heat it kind of now entirely depends on
Damian Lillard the Lakers I think got a little bit better and that was your final four from last year
is the right is the Paul trade enough for the Warriors the Paul for pool swap it's just hard to
pick right now and I think Yokech is so good and the Yokech Mario 2 man game is so good that I'm
gonna lean on that but when you're a big offseason move is to like re-sign Reggie Jackson in your
taxpayer available and everyone's like it's a little concerning I mean if you squint and you're like
okay Christian Brown takes Bruce Brown's minutes Peyton Watson takes Christian Brown's minutes
and maybe Zeke Naji takes the Jeff Green minutes you're counting on a lot of guys now to make
a big leap from a position they weren't in last year I'm not saying they can't do it and Malone
is gonna have to be committed to playing them through some tough times in the regular season but
that was that was a sneaky they had more depth than in the past that was a sneaky to thin team
on the way to the finals you know they relied a lot on Gordon at center in those backup minutes
you needed a vet like Jeff Green who was steady who hit some big shots he had a huge shot in
game five of the finals a corner three that you know helped them win that series obviously so
I think I lean nuggets as well but it feels wide open again as a right now
it does which is cool I mean you brought up the massive caveat which is that we don't know where
Damien Lillard is gonna land any team you would imagine that gets him you know save for maybe
the Raptors and Michael's case or something like that any team that would trade for him is likely
going to be a contender already and if you add him to that depending on what that team gives up
of course they're going to be in the conversation more firmly I think the second team I would pick
feels a lot like the nuggets just from the standpoint of man when they just have everybody healthy
they've always been in this conversation and that's the bucks no they haven't done anything wildly
flashy I think they added Malik Beasley this offseason but you know just generally speaking this
is a team that you know they won the title in 2021 they were this close to making it to the finals
in 2019 when the Raptors came back from a two-oh deficit to beat them and Kauai went nuts
they could have won it the season before last but Middleton missed the whole
you know missed missed the whole second round and they still went to seven against the team that
eventually went to the finals and and looked like they were going to win at the Celtic so last season
obviously don't say it I'm saying obviously it's cost for concern that they you know that they
that they got dropped for four games to one look I know Yannis was out that's the reality of it is
that any team that loses their best player for two and a half three games in a series even a one
versus an eight even with the team as solid as Milwaukee I'm going to expect them to struggle now
did I would you if you told me that would I've picked them to lose four one no but I also don't
know what that does for the psyche of the the team we don't know exactly how physically right Yannis was
once he came back although he'd still looked enough of himself to again maybe have it be more
competitive than four to one but essentially what I'm saying similar to what I was saying before
about the nuggets is that this was the first time we got to see them fully healthy I also don't know
whether to expect that anymore okay well the the bucks have been unhealthy in the playoffs now for
two years in a row and I just think if they're healthy which is a massive if it's fair to expect
that they can at least be one of the three best contenders I don't know if they're the second best
contender after the nuggets but like it's fair to think that they could be back there it's fair to
think that Yannis at full strength who I think he just had didn't need to just have a surgical
procedure right or a clean out or whatever it's fair to think that if he's at the level he's
been at which is MVP level for the last five years or so that they should be in that conversation
I don't think that's you know it's not a hot no I know the box are absolutely in there you're
you're couching it too much they're absolutely in there I just am nervous about their depth
they brought back to powder for believe easily I'm looking at the depth chart right now they're
starting five as long as they have holiday middleton Yannis and Brooke that's such a great place
to start but gosh it feels like the you know they lost angles who never really kind of came together
for them which was a bummer I was excited about that signing me too the crouter never really got
full time into the rotation and the playoffs which was strange it's gonna be an interesting team
but they're gonna be there I mean listen they have they have a first time coach too which is
really really interesting I mean I was just bright before the podcast just randomly decided to
like I had a brain fart for a minute I was like did who hired Mike Poonholzer you know and I
realized like he you know he's essentially sitting he's probably gonna just sit this year out
which that's fine like I think that sometimes it could be good to have a reset you don't have to
take a job just to take one doc is also another guy that didn't get hired this cycle after losing
the gig with the six years but you know it's so interesting to just think about I mean we've seen it
even recently with Nick Nurse taking over the Raptors job and then them winning the title
in that first year but it's it's hard to do but also that's a really talented top-end group
absolutely their questions about the depth to me the biggest thing that I think is just kind of
weird about it and I thought this last year even when they got angles it was just that okay you
generally want to see a little bit more movement with the roster you would think particularly after
you take that sort of loss it's very easy to two years ago or a year ago I'm sorry blame Middleton's
absence and say oh well if he was healthy we would have won especially when you lose in a seven game
series against the team as good as the Celtics it's a little bit more curious to me when you aren't
changing a little bit more about your roster when you lose in five in the first round as a one seed
obviously you honest missed a chunk of the series but it's still like okay you didn't think that
there was a little bit more that needed to happen a little bit more tinkering with the roster a
little bit more that you could bolster so I was a little thrown off by that but not enough to where
you wouldn't say that they're contenders anymore certainly it would be more surprising than then
unsurprising if they didn't you know make it back as a one seed a two seed something like that
it will be undoubtedly a fun season when it starts unfortunately still quite some time away
Chris that is going to do it for today's episode before we go I just want to shout out
the daily north lester my guys at the daily north lester some incredible reporting last week
shout out to them just that's important work I don't even want to qualify it by calling it
student journalism but they're reporting they're reporting leading to the realistically they're
reporting we leading to the firing of fat share I know this is not a college football podcast we're
right to shout out no it's a good shout out I am you know I have it in a while just because of my
book stuff and and obviously the work here but when I get free time teach grad school journalism
there at northwestern and I'm very proud of the students not as proud it kind of made me happy
that I don't route openly or or even silently for the football team because it's just like damn
y'all are doing all that stuff off the field a y'all are one and eleven come on
okay okay okay okay bad bad stuff but but no I mean it's it's just you know at a time where
um the industry is just rough I mean you don't need us to tell you that if you've even
lightly follow the the shifts in the movement even today the stuff that Bob Eiger sang over at Disney
um it's it's a slight slight slight bright spot to at least know that their kids grinding and
doing the work of professionals professional level work that uh to kind of uh find that sort of
stuff so it's very very cool to see that and props those students yeah and no and Jim Harbaugh
seems like a totally uh normal guy no I'm not I'm not gonna I'm not gonna uh tout the pom-poms either
because Michigan's had some ugly stuff it's it's just the reality of sports is that you're not
rooting for pure things yeah at any point that we can all stop pretending that we are here
um that we'll do it for today's episode though Chris thank you so much uh to all our listeners
we'll be back soon thank you for listening