Gardening, An Orgy for Octopuses with James Alexander-Sinclair

If you're someone who has a pressure for cut flowers, our environment and wants to make the world more beautiful, you're in the right place. Whether you're growing flowers for pleasure or profit, I'm on a mission to empower flower enthusiasts and professionals to help change the world around me. Whether you're just starting out and needing help in hand or looking to scale a substantial flower business, I'm your cut flower woman. Welcome to the Cut Flower Public House. So I'm joined today by James Sinclair and I'm really excited about today. I came across James's profile on Instagram when I read that he was one of the most influential people on Instagram in the gardening world. So I've been following you James and having a load. So James, do tell us about your journey and how you've come to where you are today. You say you're a jack of all trades. What are you a jack of? Many, many, many things obviously. I guess that the reason that I put that wherever I put it is because gardening is a very wide spread thing. I described it at one point as an orgy for octopuses, which means that there's tentacles everywhere. So you start doing one thing and then you end up doing another thing and I'm very bad at saying no. So I started off as a landscaper and a sort of jobbing gardener. My tentacles went in all sorts of different directions and I designed gardens and I talked about gardens and I broadcast for occasionally about gardens and I write about them and I judge things and all that kind of stuff. It's basically anything that anybody asked me to do. I'm very bad at saying no to, which can be dangerous on occasions. One can get oneself into terrible trouble. I've managed to avoid most public trouble. But one of the things about life is that if you don't say yes to everything then you might miss out on something and one doesn't want to do that. I'm with you. I end up in all sorts. I don't say no to very much at all. Do you want to do this one? Do you want to do that, Rose? What about you take your business in this direction, Rose? What do you want to write a book, Rose? Do you want to have a podcast, Rose? Do you want to? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll do all that and nobody knows where it's going to take you. I've met so many amazing people by just saying yes. Exactly. And you would never come across them if you'd said no. Yeah. So tell us what you're up to now. What's your current position, your current landscape business? Tell us what it's all about. It's very busy actually, Rose. It's busy and I've got 47 gardens on the go at the moment and various stages of development and whatever. Again, because I'm really bad at saying no and I really should say no. I can't. I can't. Actually, the most exciting project is the one that you haven't been to see yet. It's the next one. It's always about the next one, the next one, which is a sort of compulsive thing and probably not very good in many different ways. But I have a number of currents of whom I am very fond. Many of them I've been working with for four years. I think we've got one I've been making gardens for them for 25 years or something. So it keeps on going because the way that there's two ways that the garden design or garden building or garden making it, but a nice way to put it, works is that they want you out of there as quickly as possible. Small garden. The only way into the garden is through the kitchen. You don't want a whole load of landscapers lurking around in there for very long. So you want to get in, get out. So that's one way to do it and a way that I tend to try and avoid. And the other way to do it is to make gardens the way that most people make gardens, which is slowly. And you sort of spend time to think about it and you change your mind all the time and you think, oh, yeah, yeah, I should do that. And then actually a year later you think, actually, you know, we said we were going to do that. Well, we're not going to do that now. We're going to do something else. And so it's an evolution rather than something that happens suddenly. It's a partnership between me and who's ever garden it is because I can't lose track the fact that it's only my garden for a short while. At some point I have to hand it back to whoever owns the house and say, right, it's yours. You can do what you want. Now is the time you can bring on the nodes and all the things that I've been disapproving of for ages. So if I hang around longer, then there's less chance of them bringing on the nodes or things I just approve of. So I like to do things so that we say, okay, we're going to do this bit this year. And then we'll do that bit next year. And you just, I drop in when I'm passing or I come back every six months and we think, hey, what have you been doing about that? So a lot of my life has been spent sitting around people's kitchen tables basically and talking about things and saying, well, how about this? You know, you have this sort of conversation. And from that conversation, a garden evolves. Yeah, I've got one gnome in my garden. I have to put my hand up to that. But we do it as a joke. It's a West Ham gnome. Don't ask. And we turn it, I turn it upside down and put its head in the ground. And my husband then turns it the right way. And so it's every day this gnome gets turned upside down and upside. And that's the only gnome. But I'm with you actually. I have nothing. I have no idea. I've got, if everyone would know to my garden, they can put it upside down. But gnomes, they've got it. They just have to be really nice gnomes. And they have to have a story behind them because the answer actually mostly about stories. And your story, you know, there is obviously a reason which we won't delve into at this point. It's the way you have a West Ham gnome who is constantly being upended for darling every day by you and your husband. So it's obviously something going on there. There's a story there which means that it has a purpose and a point. One of the least pointless things I'm so sorry, you've probably seen them there quite popular is half a dog. So you have a lot of dog with its arse in the air. You think jokes and gardens are very difficult because they don't last unless there is a story and there you will have the story. So a jokey West Ham gnome would be funny once. But if it's constantly being upside and being, you know, if it's part of your daily life and part of your routine and part of the way that you basically wind up your husband or he winds up you, then it has a story and a purpose and a point. And as a result, your West Ham gnome has my eternal blessing. So tell me they're up. You hang the garden back at some point. They must be gardeners. You don't want to hang back. That actually you want to see development evolve and actually you want them to be yours, not theirs. Yeah. So are they gardens like that? Up to a point there are some, you know, they hang around for a long time. They hang around for a long time and I used to always got some part of me is sort of sort of involved in it. And there's always some part of me that's going to be there. And I will always go back. I try very hard not to fall out with my clients so that they ban me. I never want to see you, never darken my doors again. You gusty man, leave him. So I try not to do that. So there, because one of the interesting things, and I'm sure that you can't resist the fact that you only really make something good if you work with somebody you like. Yeah. If you constantly batting against each other, then it's going to be a bit, it's going to be a compromise. So you need to have somebody with whom you can be ironed to be somebody with whom you could be straightforward and say, no, I don't think you should do that. And this is the reason why they think you should do it. And some of you listen, if they say, well, actually, I really want to do this because with this, you say, fine, okay, I get that. I'm sad. West Ham know, you know, you understand, you have a reason and a purpose behind it. And so, so I tend to go back if I'm passing unless they move house, sometimes they move house and they care off and they leave. I've got one actually quite interesting one where I did the garden when they built the house. I think that must be now 15, 17 years ago. And then they said the people who employed with their solar house. And so I went and knocked on the door of the next owner. And so they haven't finished here yet, actually. I think we should do something together and then I did and then so we did more stuff when they arrived. And they've just sold it just now. And I went and knocked on the door again. And so this is the same garden three owners that we sort of sort of gone through and doing slightly different things. And because it's big in its hill sites and things. And there was stuff that I want to do I haven't done. So now I'm on the third owner and the third project in the same garden. And we're doing different things. So the answer to the question you asked me quite a long time ago, I'm sorry, is you never really the other any that I wish will mine. Not really, not really. You know, they're there, they're fun, they're exciting. But I don't really want to live in them because I'm quite happy with the one that I'm living in anyway. I don't want to. I don't have a massive garden in the. I don't hear, I mean, you know, there's some place you go to you think, Oh, I wish I had that kitchen. I wish I had that house or I wish I had this. And there are gardens in the world, which I love and I adore and I think that they're fabulous and and I would quite like to be there more often, but I don't want to live in them. So I'm a contented visitor to most of the gardens that I've made some of them have disappeared. Some of the people, though, some of the new people come on and they've heated everything that once done and they want to make up. After tough or whatever it was, they want to do and they don't sort of quite, you know, get the vibe, but that's life, isn't it? So not everybody understands what you're trying to do. Other people want to do other things and believe in them. So what's the trend at the moment in gardening? Because we obviously would sustainably it is a big thing and the environment is a big thing and being having rewilding areas is a big thing. What's the trend? If I had to say what's the biggest trend in 2023, 24, what would you say? Do you know that's the worst question for anyone else? We're going to be doing... Tell this, going to be out and saying, what are the gardening trends? I don't bloody know. Why am I supposed to know this thing? Why ask me this? I don't know. I do the reason why I don't. The reason why I don't know is because I am a chap of a certain age. I am an old fellow. And it's not up to me to invent trends. It's not up to me. It's up to the next generation. It's up to them to decide what's coming next. It's not up to me at all. I've been doing this for 40 years now. I've gone through an awful lot of ups and downs and different things come in and different things come out. And if you look over the 40 years, there is a consistency. And the consistency is basically that people need gods. It doesn't really matter what sort of garden that they have, whether they have something that, you know, pricked with an inch of its life or something that's just been left wild and is full of fridges. I don't really care. What they need is they need somewhere where they feel safe, when they feel comfortable and they feel relaxed and all of this sort of thing. And they understand the power of being outside, which is something that people have been going for a long time. I understand. We've understood this for years. People come and come along and say, oh my God, did you know that if you feel a bit shit and you go outside, you feel better? And I see, yeah. And people would be a bit off the path between the pandemic. This was like a big revelation. It's not a revelation. It's been the case for 20,000 years or however long it is. Whenever the Chinese, you know, the Chinese started gardening when we were basically running around the face banging each other on the head with axes. And they were making gardens and they did it because it made them feel calm. It made them feel better on it, made them get away from things. So it is that. So the answer to your question is that I don't know A and B, the garden trend is whatever you want because there is no right and there is no wrong in gardens, which is exactly about what you want. It's your garden. It's your space. Well, how you feel that it's in it is not up to any, any transitive to decide what it is. And yes, all the things that you mentioned are there, but always happening, you know, the whole, the whole rewilding thing is rewilding is a difficult area because if you think about it, what people are really talking about, what they're talking about rewilding is gardening to wildlife. Yes. And, and realizing that again, one of these, these truths that people have gardeners have known for ages and, and is the case in the world over is, is that the human race is not the most important thing in the world. And that there are other people who have every right to be in your garden as well. And, you know, when I first started gardening in the sort of 1980s, there were, I mean, it was a pursuit to try and kill everything in your garden. I don't want this. I don't want worms. They make worm casts on my lawn. I don't want these animals. I don't want these bugs. I don't want these weeds. What should we do? Well, we'll kill them. And we'll spray them with something, something horrible. And it's excluding people. And it's keeping you say, gardens are just for us, for us, for us, which is a very selfish and slightly, well, I mean, it's counterintuitive because, I mean, the basic thing is if you don't have any bugs in your gardens, then you won't get any birds. And you're like, why are the birds going to my garden? And so why are they not in my garden? Why are they in roses garden next door? I said, because you've killed all the food. So why should they bother to come to lunch with you when all you're offering them is, is nothing whereas, whereas, whereas Rose next door in her garden has got roast, a fit, and all sorts of things that she's offering to you. So, so, so why? So, so rewinding is gardening in sympathy with other species and other creatures rather than just gardening for people. I think that's... Yeah. And I'm completely 100%. I mean, way back in the 80s, we're talking about the 80s. I did a degree in environmental chemistry, if you can imagine, it even existed. And I'm sure it wasn't. And it was always... It was kind of a bit of a learning and I kind of learned an awful lot, but you couldn't get a job because nobody wants to employ an environmentalist. You could imagine it was almost like, we'll sit them in the corner and we won't ask many questions because that could be quite. We were talking about the environment and sustainability then and roll on, you know, 30 years and we're still talking about sustainability and environment now. But then we were talking about pesticides and we were talking about the damage it was doing and not having environmental influences in our gardens and if we could build all the bugs, there wouldn't be any food. And I think maybe we're waking up to that now. Yeah. It's a long time. It is quite late, but then that's the way of the world isn't it? Sometimes, sometimes people don't really want to do anything that is against their best interests or against what they perceive as their best interests. They don't want to do something. Okay, so the people who make environmental chemicals don't want to stop making environmental chemicals because they're making quite a lot of money out of it. Therefore, they will argue and they will fight and they will struggle to the very last moment before they get, before they put it down and put their mind to something else. So it does take time and you need an ongoing or an oncoming catastrophe, which is what we're facing. We are convinced people of things. Two things drive it. Two things drive it. The price, the price we're going to have to pay if we don't do something about it personally. And that will drive the market and then perception and knowledge will drive the market as well. Maybe those two will come together and will form an opinion about how we live better. But there certainly is more scientific research going on and there's more people involved in it. So maybe the message and the PR message is out there so people won't be using products. Just leave the little aphids. The aphids are in nature. I mean, we're a flower farm and for us, if our roses get attacked by aphids, it's like, you know, this is money. This is what we're going to sell. So we bring in parasitic wasps now and we sit on our hands for two days and we wait for the nature to take its course and think, is this going to work? And then it does. And you think, actually, that's what we should be doing. We should be just sitting on our hands. Life is balanced. Life is balanced. Life is not all activity. Life is not all. No thing around. You need a balance between them. Both things. Yeah, absolutely do. So tell us about one project you're really proud of. That's another awkward question, isn't it? One project that you love to do. That's your one would be easy question to answer. Actually, I made a garden six years ago now for a charity project. People, Horatius got what you may have. I didn't bowl. You didn't bowl. Okay, then you know the deal. But I better tell you the story anyway. I don't know how the rest would just be asked. So yeah, we know. Nobody else out there. We know who Horatius got on this. I raise money for them, actually. Yes. I do. Which are generally all for a particular one. Where'd you live? Generally, the whole charity. No, I mean, it's great. I mean, I'm a trustee of Horatius. So I began writing, it was the second garden. So Cleve, let me tell the story of Horatius. Horatius Chapel was a 17 year old boy who was tragically killed by a palabao while he was on the school trip 10 years ago. And in his memory, his parents, David and Olivia, set up this charity. And David, his father, is a spinal surgeon, an erasure before he died, but done a certain amount of sort of research. He rather wanted to be a doctor who was doing a bit of research and he'd done research among the patients in Soresbury's spinal injury unit. To find out what they thought would improve their lives. The interesting thing about spinal injury is more than anything else in the other illness that there is. You're not even going to affect anybody that quickly. You hit that bus, you fall over, you have a stroke. Anything could happen and you or I or anybody else who listens to this within six hours time or three hours or hours time or a minute's time, your life could have changed irrevocably and forever. And not just your lives, but also the life of your husband, your wife, your children, your mother, your father, your uncle, your friends, your colleagues, everybody's life is changed by this change in your circumstances. And the fact that you are now spinal damage and you can't walk and you can't go home because there are two steps to get into the bathroom. All of that kind of stuff, everything, everything sort of changes. So this is something that is traumatic and sudden to often and can affect anybody. So Horatio asked these patients what would make a difference and the spinal injury in it, the surgery is on the first floor for a building. And they said we want to go home. And he was sort of proper research and he'd written it all down. And then he went on the school trip and he didn't come back and his parents gave his memory. So right, we're going to act on what Horatio has started on the seed that he has sown and we're going to put a garden in this spinal injury in Salisbury. And friends and people ride round and they quite rapidly raise the money and always be able to do this. And there's a lot of arguing with the National Health Service and they got my friend, Cleave West, who's a very distinguished, very delicious, very handsome garden designer who's made and done lots of justy gardens and all these sort of things. And he came and he designed a spectacular garden for the spinal injury unit at Salisbury and that was the first one. And having done one, then David and Olivia thought, well, how many spinal injury units are there in the country? And there are 11. He said, well, we're going to do them off. We're going to do all of them. And so this little sort of vibration became this great big ball of energy and fundraising and all this sort of thing and stuff. And so they rang me and said, would you like to design a garden for us in Glasgow? I have a Scottish name, and I am a Scottish. So that sort of helps. So I went to Glasgow and I went with Olivia and one of the other generation's trustees at Victoria and we went to this place and it was really, really, really, really, really to us. And there were people in there who were in the hospital for six months, nine months a year. And the garden was, there were two bits of garden. There's a central courtyard that was basically, it was paving that was all over the place and was bumpy. And completely and totally unsuitable for spinal injury patients. If you've just broken your back, a bump hurts. You get pushed over it and it's like, Jim, you can imagine what it's like, you know, it's just being jolted all the time. And then there's a second bit of a bit of garden that ran down the side in between the hospital and the main road that goes up to the Clite Tunnel. And this was the way the view of the wards looked out onto this piece of ground, which was, I mean, it was a note of miniseries and rubbish and rats and nothing that took. And so I took these two bits of garden, I turned them into this garden and had conversations with the patients and with their families and girls. And there was this woman who I spoke to, extraordinary impression on me and maybe understand what was really needed. She said, when? You're in this place and your life has changed and you have to find a way to adapt to this. And that involves a lot of really quite serious conversations. And she said, the only place that hire an husband who'd fallen off the cliff and had been there for six months, the only place that we could be alone, was in the broom cover. Because all there is is curtains around the beds, there's curtains around the bed, there is no privacy there. There is no place, I mean, you can't, every is in the same boat, but you know, you don't want to cry and let everybody hear. You don't want to break down, you don't want to have these sort of conversations within your shot. And so they would go and shut themselves in the cupboard and cry. And I thought, that's just not right. So we made this garden and in this garden I've got these three buildings. So there's a big, there's quite a big building that will set maybe 20 people in it and it's got a kitchen and a kettle and a never, a never emptying biscuit tin, which is the secret to light to the happiness in many different ways. And then there's another building where you could fit, I know, two people in. So this is, this is where you go and the door closes and it's warm and there's light and the garden is what you look at. And that is the place where you go to have this conversation. So then the third building will fit maybe 40. So that's where you go with your children and your aunt and your uncle and your, you know, to show that you have a group of people so that you can do it. And it's not all for sounding. Sometimes it's just because you want to go and laugh. You want to be with your friends. You want to go and have a cup of tea normally. And we have great parties in these gardens and some of it is about gardening. But the important thing about it is, you know, you think about gardens for disabled people and it's all about, you know, you've got to have raised beds, you've got to have all this and say, no, no, no, no, we have that, yes. But actually a lot of the pleasure from gardening is just being in it rather than doing the work. You know, not everybody wants to go. A lot of people just want to go, but even if they're not even faintly interested in the fact that we should be selling a sweet piece or chitting potatoes or doing all that sort of stuff, nobody, they didn't give a damn about that. Not everybody is excited about what they understand is the fact that they're there. And there's a blue tit eating something or there's a robin on the floor or that plant over there is the most gorgeous shade of, you know, odenmieden or crimson or orange or whatever. And the fact that there's a butterfly sitting right is amazing. And only if you go this way and you stop here and you breathe and you will smell all of the things you notice, you understand this, you understand this. And people who are listening to this, understand this. The whole sensory orgasm of gardening, basically, and everything is there. Every single thing, what you touch, what you feel, what you smell, what you hear, what you taste, all of this you find in a garden. And all of this gives you this extraordinary relief from being in a spinal injury unit where it smells of hospital. And it smells of disinfectant and it smells of unhappiness. And you go to the garden and it's better. So that was Glasgow. And then my friend Joe Swift, who's the bald one from God and his world, did Stoke Mandagal. And then we do, then Tom Sietz Smith's done one in London and then Sarah Price has done Pardiff and where's next? Oslo Street, Bonnie Guinness did Oslo Street. Then she was on the floor. And then Andy Surgens did one in Belfast at starting an event now. And then John Harrison, Hugo Baga, doing one in Sheffield at some point. And then there is Middlesbrough and Wakefield. Is that 11? No, I didn't miss one. There are all these various ones that are there. So exciting. And then I became a trustee two years ago because I wanted to be more involved in this and more excited by it. And then this year, 2023 Chelsea Flowers Show, there is a Racious Garden on May 9th, which is sponsored by a project given back, which is a whole other charitable thing. And so there will be a garden there designed by Charlotte and Hugo that will be the model for the garden in Sheffield and it will be the start. And everything that goes into that garden, Chelsea will then go into a lorry and go to Sheffield and, yeah, no, no, no. So that was a really, really long answer to a question. I'm sorry. It was an easy one's answer. That is the most important garden that I have ever made in my life. And there's probably the most important garden I ever will make in my life. So I have another one. But I'm also quite interested in it and quite insane, which is sort of partly underway. Which is a hospice garden. So it's a long the same sort of idea. It's a hospice garden in Norwich, a brand new hospice garden in Norwich, eight acres of garden in this. And the idea is basically to do everything that I've been saying is the idea is to make sure that the garden is the center of the hospice. It's all about that. It's about what you see from your bed. It's about what you can walk out and experience with because nobody should, I mean, we all die. We all come to an end at some point. And nobody should ever die while looking at the bins. That's basically the message line. It's that you should always have the option that if as you take your dying breaths, you look out the window and you see something that is beautiful and you can leave the surf knowing that there's something that is good. If you die while looking at the bins, it's quite the same. No. So that's one that I've done, it's a nice important one and there will be hopefully other things. And there's gardens for nice people in nice places. And I'm doing over a hotel and various bits and pieces and stuff like that. The thing you've got is you can produce joy and beauty. And that's amazing, isn't it? Not everybody in what they do can produce joy and beauty and have a reason for it. I mean, I did get involved with a gracious garden because I think I read The Well Garden Mind by Sue Stjurtzmann, obviously Tom's wife. And I then got involved and went to a Carol concert in London. Oh, well, this last one. Yes. And the one before. Oh, yeah. The one I read a lesson at that. Yes. I read a poem that was a really, really difficult poem to read. Because yeah, there's a flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop. It's called Thrive. No, not Thrive. Thrive, thrift. Thrive, thrift. Look it up. That's it, great. It's not a poem that you can read if you're even slightly pissed. Oh, you're good, but nobody would understand it. But with Horatius Garden, and I will be asking my podcast listeners as well as my whole audience, my cut flower audience, just sponsor me because I have agreed with Horatius Gardens that I'm going to cycle India because I'm mad in September. And it's even more mad because it's a pretty difficult thing to do. I've cycled India once before, but this time I'm going to do Kerala. But it's even more mad because I have two knee replacements. So it's quite challenging. It's not just, oh, Rosie's going to get on a bike and go cycle 450 kilometres and everything's going to be easy. It's absolutely not going to be easy. It's going to be very difficult. But that's part of it. That's definitely part of it. It's an electric bicycle. I didn't know there were many. I was going to think, I have an electric one too. And I was going to think about asking if I could have an electric one because even on an electric one, it's still quite challenging to do one and 50 kilometres. No, it isn't. So that's fantastic. Elriche's sponsor. Elriche entered their PE Max and poured them into the coffers of Horatius Gardens. Absolutely so. Absolutely so. So you talk about a revolution in gardening. That's another difficult question. You talk about revolution in gardening. What is it? Where can people meet you? Where can they join this revolution? I don't think I'm the leader of the revolution. Because again, like I said before, I'm quite old. It's not up to me to the revolutions are the privilege of the young. And basically, the revolution is something that we've been gardening. I guess there's another different way to putting it. I remember gardens in flower shows specifically in the 80s, which were quite similar and then everything sort of changed and then new perennial movement appears. And everybody was doing sort of a peat out of the prairie planting and great swathes of what I knew that was fabulous and fantastic and still isn't it still going on? And so that's been going for a while. So what I'm looking for is the next one. What's the thing? What's the thing? What are you going to do? What are you people going to do? You're going to do something amazing with cactime carrots or whatever it is. And what I think should happen is there has to be change. There has to be constant change. Gardening gardening has this central threat that runs through it, which is fun, relaxing, it's, you know, healthy. It's good for your head and your heart and your hips and everything else that begins with an H. But there are different ways of doing the different styles. And what's sort of slowly emerging is, again, we covered it and talked about it a little bit earlier, is the fact that my perception of a garden, any old-fashioned garden, is not necessarily the same as every perception of a garden. Some people get intimidated by something that is a garden and enchanted by something that is just there. And they're saying, okay, which is the most valid form of gardening? And then there is not whatever you say that makes me feel good. So the revolution is on its way and it will not be led by me. So don't cross the question. Ask it of the next generation basically. You know, I'm here. I've lived this life or had this career, which I'm very pleased with. And I'm very happy and I wake up every morning and think, well, hey, this is wonderful and this is exciting. But one of the most exciting things is it's having things on. It's moving along and saying, right, what are you going to do? How can I help you do what you want to do? How can I make you do 20-year-olds, you're 25-year-old? How can I make your progress easier? How can I, you know, maybe what I can do is just take it out of the way. Yeah, and stand back. Maybe I can make a suggestion. Maybe I can help. Maybe I can say, why did this eventually that do this instead? You know, it was all of that kind of thing, which is... It's knowledge sharing actually. We employed some students here on the farm. We do every summer and they keep coming back. You know, we employed them when they're 16 and now they're at university and they come in there some holidays and it's lovely. And one of them went off to Cardiff to study maths. And we went, oh, I want to do maths. You want to do court culture? I want to do maths for it. Anyway, he went to do maths. He lasted the first term. And he came back at Christmas and said, I can't do maths. I can't do maths. I need to be outdoors, Ross, because you taught me about being outdoors. And I can't... This was a person who was never outdoors until I got him. And he was just doing it for money. So he went back and I said, well, have a look and see what courses there are. You're going to make something. So he came back and he said, right, that's it. I've now given up and I'm going back to do year one again. I'm going to do archaeology because I'm going to be outdoors. So that was a start. It was like he started to realise that he was so very good for his mental health and so good for his physical health for being outdoors that he definitely didn't want to job doing maths. So maybe that the revolution and the whole horticultural revolution will happen where people start to go. There are loads of other things they can do and that being outside is a really good thing to do. I mean, it's also... I think that you can't... It's not that you can't do horticulture if you're a mathematician. You can do more things. You know, horticulture probably needs maths. It means somebody to do the counting. I definitely can't do it. I managed to fail my maths so level five times, which is quite impressive now. That is impressive. And I've never understood maths. I have two sons, both of whom do they level maths. Because of their mother, obviously. But she just can't do numbers. But you need people who can contribute all sorts of everything to it. So the good thing about horticulture and about gardening is that you can do both. You can be mathematician and a gardener. You can be a doctor and a gardener. You can be a farmer and a gardener. You can be a... Delet contestant owner and a gardener. All of these kind of things. It's something that you can do all the time or so on to. Well, it's both ways. Yeah, it's not mutually exclusive. You can do both. Correct. Which cannot be said about a state agency. You can't be a mathematician and an estate agent in your spare time. It doesn't sort of work like that. No. So maybe that's the revolution. More people are realising. The benefits are being outside. And therefore they try it. And then you get... That's death. That is the revolution. That is the revolution. And that's a revolution that's just been accelerated by pandemic. Basically. And suddenly people realised, we were talking about earlier, it was suddenly realised that there's this thing called outside. And it's not just something you have to walk through in order to get from one building to another. It's actually worth stopping and looking in the way that ever really wore their parks to mud just by walking around and around and around. She understood and they'd be appreciated the fact that there were trees there and they weren't just there in the way. They're there and they deserve respect and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, I mean they say something like 7 million people have taken up gardening since Covid. So that's an awful lot of the UK population. Yeah, I mean not all of them will stay. Some of them will be like, hey, it's winter. It's winter. I don't like this anymore. It's cold. It's wet and it's miserable and it's horrible. But some of them will be fine. They're good. Yeah, it will be a change. Maybe that's the revolution. So do tell listeners, if you were in Desert Island, if there were three books you'd take with you, a couple of books you'd take with you, what would you take? Oh, God. I'd take plants and flowers, RHS, and I'd learn every single plant and flower that exists. I think it's here. There it is. Yeah. That's it. Trust me. You know, the last time I took that out of that shelf, very long time ago. Because all of these garden books here, in front of me, I don't read them at all. Because why do I need the RHS garden? I could just Google it. It's just there. I mean, it's lazy. I don't do it. But if we're looking for a garden book, I'll show you somebody. Do you know the works of the great Beverly Nichols? No. Beverly Nichols, he's sunlight on the lawn and other works. He's a rather wonderful, he was sort of writing in the 1950s. And he was American. He wrote about all sorts of things. He writes very amusingly and slightly elegantly about gardens. So that's worth, I mean, it's definitely worth reading and worth finding. I mean, it's a glorious sort of deity. It's a deity covered to it and everything. It's about him and his garden and his man, sir, and all sorts of stuff like that. So it's quite interesting. So I would take something of his and then something on the same lines is that my life would not be the same without PG Woodhouse. So I would have to take some PG Woodhouse with me. I would say to me, serious, shouldn't I, really? I'd tell you something that I've been reading about quite a lot recently and which my wife got me into because she has been reading about agriculture. She is about regenerative farming the way that farming needs to change in order for a source of survival. And it's a sort of extension of what I do as a garden designer as well. I quite often need to have a garden and that garden then backs onto a field. And so where do you stop? You obviously can't garden into the field because it's a different thing. But I'm still designing fields and landscapes and things like that and working out how to deal with them and putting more hedgerows in them. Changing the way that fields are grazed and trying to encourage field margins and more trees and spinach and water and all of this sort of thing which is sort of an important extension of a garden design. It's more into landscape design. And regenerative farming and the way that we have basically ruined an awful lot of our countryside by the way that it's been farmed over the last 50, 60, 70, 80 years is pretty dam scandalous and we need to make a difference to it. So I've got two projects that shoot them. One which is 55 acres of farmland that we're trying to change the way that it's looked at. Another one is restoring about five hectares of heathland. It's been a grass field for 50 years. And so taking this out of growing grass and actually putting it back into growing heathland. So it's basically this involving stripping all the soil off and then sowing heather and heathland grasses and planting pine trees and birch trees. And that's sort of rough and restoring that. And so something about regenerative farming is good. There are lots of people who have written good books about the awful thing is that I have a mind like a sieve and I can't remember the one that I really enjoyed. Sarah Langford I think is the awful. Anyway, there's a lot of books about regenerative agriculture and how important it is. It's not culture is not gardening, but it is a huge part of what we do and how it works is the connection because your connection extends your connection. Okay, so say you're in your house and the first thing that you step out of your back drawing to is this sort of very domesticated piece of garden and then you go a bit further and you go a bit further and you get further and everybody's garden gets a little bit rougher as it gets further away. So you get a bit where all the old pots are and all the compost seeds and all that sort of rubbish. And then if you're lucky enough living the countryside, the next step is a field or a wood or a piece of common land or a park or a boat is and then it goes on and goes on and goes on. You keep following that line. You can walk out of your back to walk in a straight line. Then you will walk through garden and then walk through parkland depending on where you and then you'll walk through through you know heathland and you'll walk through hills and you'll walk through moors and you'll walk through dales and you'll walk to beaches and coastland and all that kind of stuff. All of that is connected. All of that just flows from one to the next, the next, the next, the next, from urban to suburban to rural to coastal to wherever it goes. If you keep walking in a straight line you'll go through all of these things no matter which direction you go. And there's no point where it says, oh there's a fence here. I can't get from suburban to rural. I can't get through to the next piece of countryside because fences are around me. Keep it fly at the top of it. You know it goes. So everything connects from one to the other. So if you're a gardener then you're also to a certain extent a farmer. And if you're a farmer you're also a custodian of the settlement of the land. So even if you all you have is a window box or a couple of pots. That's the beginning. That's the start. And you still have this connection to the rest of the countryside. So sustainable and species sensitive agriculture is a really, really important thing. It's like we again were talking about we were talking about rewilding earlier is the fact that we human beings are not necessarily the most important person ever were. There are other species and other things that have people heft to humans just because we walk on two legs and talk a lot. One of us I apologize to more than they should do. But it doesn't mean that we are being on end. Well James I will finish today and thank you very much for joining us. And we are definitely not the be all on end all. And you're exactly right. I walk my dog I go through the back of my garden. I go from go out garden. Then I go out into the field and pass the pond. And then I will climb the sky and I will go into farmers land. And then I will go down to the river which then becomes a little bit of public land. And we're unfortunate or fortunate to have a gravel mining at the moment for 10 years. We're in year six so far because we're by a river. And so they are mining it for gravel to build houses. And you kind of have to accept that for a period of time. And then after that they are going to put lakes in I hope. And then it will be beautiful again. But you're exactly right it's an extension my walk with my dog is an extension of walking completely through different landscapes and being noticing and being responsible for all of them. That's both of you. That's both of you. Okay do you have cheering on to finish? You really have to finish on that. Is that brilliant? Do you need to do something else? No that's cool. That's good. Thank you. Thank you very much for joining me James. Really really interesting. All your contact details will be in the show notes. People will be able to get hold of you. I will follow you with the trustees of Horatio very closely. And it's lovely to talk to you. Thank you very much for asking me. It's very kind and very sweet to me. It's always lovely to spend a dark Tuesday afternoon talking to somebody like that. So that's great. Thank you. I look forward to next week's episode. Please don't forget to subscribe and rate and review on your podcast app. We do have some wonderful free resources on our website at thecutflourcollective.co.uk. We also have two free Facebook communities which we'd love you to join. For farmers or those who want to be from our farmers, we have cut flower farming, growth and profit in your business. And our other free Facebook group is Learn with the Cutflower Collective for those starting out on their flower journey. All of the links are below. I look forward to getting to know you all. Bye. ♪♪♪♪ .