Revolutionizing Floristry: The Sustainable Solution with Phoam Labs and Dundee Butcher

If you're someone who has a passion for cut flowers, our environment and wants to make the world more beautiful, you're in the right place. Whether you're growing flowers for pleasure or profit, I'm on a mission to empower flower enthusiasts and professionals to help change the world around them. Whether you're just starting out or needing help in hand, or looking to scale as a substantial flower business, I'm your Cut Flower Woman. Welcome to the Cut Flower Podcast. So I am delighted today to welcome Dundee Bookcher of Phone Laps and we'll be talking more about that. Please do tell our listeners a little bit about you Dundee, your background, I've just heard that you're a tennis star, so you can tell us about that. And now today you've got to where you are. I know you were in London, you were in London up, and now you're in California and you spent time with Jane Packer, so do tell us a little bit more about it. Well, first of all thanks so much for having me, guys. So we're living in London, my husband is English and I have four children and they were going to school in London and the youngest two were turning, their twins, they were turning probably 15 or so, didn't need their mom as much and I thought what am I going to do with my time here? I wanted to do something, I didn't know what it was and I had been talking to my husband about that for a year or so, but my mom loved flowers and one day, one evening I was in our lobby room in central London and working, playing around with some flowers. My husband said, why don't you take a flower course and I thought really that's a novel idea. So anyway, I thought about it for a while I did and then that was a month course and then we lived in central London as I said and I would always walk by Jane Packer flowers and thought their window was so stunning and got all my courage up one day and poked my head and it just said, would you all need any free help? And this most wonderful, wonderful, lovely, kind, darling woman named Diana was behind the desk and she said, oh yes, please. And so she kind of took me downstairs to the work room which was very, very busy with lots of very young, English people and they all looked at me sort of like, who is this? Anyway, they put me to work basically sweeping the floors and cleaning faces which I was really happy to do and you are walking every morning and being not only American but Texan and I was very enthusiastic and I would give high fives and hugs to people and they really did look at me like I was a freak of nature. But they took me in. I ended up being head of business development for Jane Packer and worked with a lot of floral foam at that time. We did a party, a particular day I remember. We had done a party where it was at the Savoy Hotel and it was for Simon, Carol and Victoria Beckham and we used a massive amount of floral foam, traditional floral foam. And we got it back the next day and our job was to take the flowers out of the foam and put them in the compost can and then take the foam into a plastic bag, black trash bag and drag it across the floor heavy and try with our mic to hoist it into a lone fill can. And after several hours of this, I said to the manager, I said, really is this the best we can do? Surely there's a better way to do this and a better product and she said, Dundee, if you can come up with something, you'll revolutionize the floral industry. Well, I mean that was 2009 or 10 or so, of course I'm not a scientist. So I sort of thought, yeah, yeah, yeah, well, okay. Anyway, fast forward to a few years later, 2012, 2013, I had fallen in love with teaching, you know, I hadn't really done any, I just thought I really would like to be a teacher. I'd like to teach forestry and my great friend, Duck and McCabe, who had been at Jane Packer, had moved to McQueen's, there was a teacher there named Louis de Silva, who was quite renowned and I thought, you know, if I'm going to learn to teach, maybe I should go take their course, their month long course. So I did, there was another wonderful teacher there, Giuseppe Pedori and Deanna, my friend who had welcomed me at Jane Packer, also moved over there at one point. So I did that course and learned, of course, a lot more than just great teaching. And then 2013 did move to California, my husband went back and forth while he was a partner in a global headhine fund in London. And so he would come back and forth to California, but I moved over to finish our course here. So I got a beautiful space for the school that I went, Russian River Flower School, beautiful space was already go, thought I knew everything I needed to do about teaching, got here to Northern California, and I had all this knowledge about formal forestry, flowers very tightly shaped like a mushroom and bouquet, you know, bringing flowers in from Holland and all of this and, you know, and they looked at me like, we even know what you're doing, what is that? Well, of course, I was devastated, thought, oh my God, I've run into this beautiful space and all this knowledge and it's not going to work for them, I'm going to do. I don't know how to teach loose, relaxed forestry, I don't know, anything about foraging from, you know, gardens and the side of roads and all these things and pods and so in a way at that time my husband had, he had to go to New York and I had followed a woman named Emily Thompson, a florist who had, I think she had her background is sculpture, but she is just instilled today out, I love her work, very foraged, very, I had of her time sustainably, artistic, beautiful, yeah, natural, beautiful stuff. Wild, it just, it was just, it's so spoke to me, but I had no clue, so I said can I join you on this trip to New York, because I really was going to just show it out at her doorstep, well, I did and she was so kind, she had just finished a meeting with her dear friend, Shane Conley, I don't know what they were collaborating on, something and I basically just said, what am I going to do with myself, these collaborating on a royal wedding or something, I would think, a little bit earlier, but yeah, they would be now, I'm sure. Yeah, they're dear friends and such pioneers in this whole sustainable movement. But anyway, so she said, look, Dandy, you're going to be fine, you've got this fabulous background and formal forestry, it's much easier to go formal and then looser than the other way around, just use this as your platform to learn and meet the growers in Northern California, of course, she knew all of them. She introduced me to Deborah Prinsing, the slow flower movement. Yes, I've met her. I've met her. Yeah, Deborah is another one way before her time, so then fabulous work for that, for the sustainable movement. But anyway, so I came back to California and I thought, all right, I'm going to go meet all the growers, which I did, which there's lots of, and I met all the vendors at the San Francisco flower market, got to know them really well. And then one of the biggest pivotal moments for me was realizing that I needed to learn more about how things grow and how the movement and how we didn't have to harvest things. What stages do you want to cut them? And so I called a dear dear friend of mine, James David, who's a world-renowned landscape architect out of Austin and then had moved to Santa Fe and said, get on the next plane, come out here. We had built this house and we had this bare land, almost an acre of bare land, and I said, we are going to design a garden. And you're going to show, we've got to design it with the flower school in mind, so that we can use things for the school. And then he had worked with a friend here in Heelsburg. In Austin, and this guy had moved to Austin, he's a landscape gardener. So together, they designed this garden for me. There was heavily and heavily in foliage. And it was really interesting because I realized how, out here, you can buy a lot of flowers. But to buy really interesting foliage is harder. It's the same. It's the same in Europe. It's the same. So that was really interesting. And so I started, this garden was my teacher. They were my teachers. The garden was my teacher. And so gradually, I learned a lot more about that. And anyway, fast forward, schools in full ocean, Duncan brought two groups from London, from the Queens, and brought just Epipodori with them. We had two incredible groups out here, 20 something people. A group of South Koreans came, Lewis, the silver, we did a group together here. So it was, we had a really nice group of people across the years that came out here. One day, though, I was about 2014. I was in my school working with traditional foam. And another friend of mine, who was a Barbara Jementek, which is a science-based company in San Francisco, came in. And I said, Leonard, I really just got to hate this stuff. I wish we could come up with sustainable option. And he said, you know what? It's finally enough of got a young scientist friend coming to town. He's been doing his internship this summer at Berkeley, but he's coming to Healdsburg for the weekend. You should talk to him because he's going to get his doctorate in a few months under a very famous polymer scientist in Minneapolis, University of Minnesota. Talked to him about what he's doing. So he came, and I did, poor guy, I held him in the corner hostage for about two hours. Yeah, no idea what to think of me. But anyway, his name was David Goldfeld. And he said, well, you know, first of all, he said, this sounds like it might be pretty easy. And of course, I do remind him of that today. But anyway, he went on and he said, let me ask Professor Hillmeyer what he thinks is, is Paul, is a polymer the way to go forward with this, could that be a solution? And so Mark Hillmeyer said, actually, yes, I think this could work. They took it on. We financially sponsored it with Leonard and his partner, John. And so, you know, it was a long, it was, it was a bit of a slog. I'm not going to lie, it has been. It's been a wonderful slog, but it's just not easy. Everything we've done has been groundbreaking, new, one step forward, two steps back, two forward, one back. But 2021, we ended up, David had done some other things after he graduated with his doctorate. So he was now doctor David Goldfeld. We hired him as our chief technology officer. So that was huge. And then drag my husband away from, you know, I started realizing this was a thing. This was, this was big. And this can be big, much bigger than me, especially in the business part of it. And so I said, you know, I need some help, whether it's with you or someone who's more in business, you know, talented than me. And so he agreed to sort of do a little more for us, probably more than he thought. But I remember it was funny one day. You know, they dress in dark shoes and dark suits and basically black shoes in his office. It was a very formal and central London. And one day in 2021, he was going to go to this, this foam expo in Detroit and he turned to me and he said, what do I pet? What do I wear to a foam expo? Not your dark suit in your black shoes. But anyway, he has just been incredible. And he's, he's are, he's, he's, he's really just been incredible in what he's brought to the company. And so that's 2000. So I was. So a sustainable floral product is born. That's it was born really 2022 was when it was born. We have first brick size prototype. And we developed our first brick size. So that's the size of a traditional floral foam. And we also, we also were invited to be in the Minnesota Cup, MN Cup. And that is the biggest competition in the US 2600 companies. And we it was a long three month process. And it's for the, I guess the most, the company that they think has got the most promise to be a success. And we ended up winning that, which kind of blew open our cover, not that we were trying to hide, but it really gave us kind of a global profile. And we also won this Sustainable and Green Chemistry Award there. So that was a big deal. We also that year added a bunch of big talent to our team in Minneapolis, the CFO, chief financial officer and operations manager ahead of engineering and assistant scientist. And then most recently, Duncan McCabe came on as our head of social media. So and then Professor Hillmeyer put together at University of Minnesota, he put together a scientific advisory group, which a group of experts in the polymer science and manufacturing business from around the world to advise us, advise phone labs going forward. We completed a successful fundraising round in early 2023, have a fantastic group of investors. And now we march forward towards commercialization in the US and Europe, hopefully about into the year. So there you go. I brought you up to date. So you're going to change the world because we all know that fluorophane doesn't degrade, traditional fluorophane doesn't degrade in the environment. You know, something like 50% of it does go within 365 days, but up to 91% is still around in 1,100 days. And they talk about that biodegradable as in biological active landfill conditions. Well, I don't know any biological active landfill conditions that actually exist. So I think in a laboratory that probably exists, but not in landfill. So we definitely don't have those conditions. So it's really, really frightening if we looked at what traditional fluorophane does for the environment. Yeah, well, you know, landfill, as I understand it, landfills don't want things that break down because, you know, they create smells and gases. But what we have to remember about traditional fluorophane, it does break down, but it breaks down into microplastics and they never disappear. No. So that's, you know, it might break down, but that's what it breaks down into. So, yeah. Stay with us. We'll be right back. Polarance of distinction, founded in 1987, are a small family-run sea business where customer service really matters. Their policy has always been to offer something a little different, introducing new and unusual annuals and preneels together with hard-to-find heritage favourites. But what really sets plants of distinction apart from many other sea companies is their extensive range of individual colours, along with a wide range of cottage garden and container grown varieties. Plants of distinction offer a fabulous collection of choice-cutting flowers. Amongst this year's highlights and absolute must-hams are an introduction of some beautiful cut flower banses, together with some stunning antirinum in a host of individual colours. More salt after varieties are being introduced this forthcoming autumn, so don't miss it. Plants of distinction are offering a 30% off your order using the discount code cut flower 30. Do you have a look at plantsofdistinction.co.uk? I think that's a big problem and it's really exciting because when I came across your product, I thought, oh, look at this, look at this, we're going to have a floor room because, you know, there are situations and as florists and flower farmers in the UK, we are using chickimoya and we are using moss and we are not using any form of floral fur. I would say that not using it is time restrictive. It takes a long longer, not to arrange something and it hasn't got as much flexibility, but we kind of live with that. But I know your product has much larger implications, doesn't it? Just not just in the florist industry, as much larger implications. Tell us about those. Well, let me back up a minute. I want to tell you a little bit because I know people want to know what this is. They're all going to go, what's in it? What's in it? So, you know, it's made of PLA, which is polylactide, which comes from corn. It's totally renewable within a 12-month cycle from the corn back into the earth. So, basically, earth to earth. And in our phone with a pH, generates no microplastics, contains no toxic materials. And that's what we have always said, absolutely no toxic chemicals for our employees, our users, or the environment. And so, it was designed to be from the get-go, no brainwashing of any sort. Designed to be an alternative to traditional floral foam. And to give florist a sustainable option for a substrate that's compostable. Sorry, that was an introduction. Keep going. Oh, just to give florist a sustainable option for a substrate that is compostable. And like you talked about with time, you know, without compromising their creative creativity. You've got to make a living. Time is money. And so, as a florist, I know how this has to work. And also, you know, we wanted it to look as much like traditional floral foam as possible in size and color and all that. Because we know it's going to be a big job. And so, we thought, as much as it can look like traditional floral foam. But it's actually, it's a very, very pretty green. We're limited in the color because it has to be food contact grade. We don't want anything in this. It's not food grade. Or it doesn't compost. But it's a beautiful green. It smells, people love the way it smells. It smells like maple syrup. And I think one of the funniest things that I've learned a cool thing is, you know, florists are engineers, deep down, they're engineers. And they're going to come up with all kinds of new ways to use foam with a pH. And you know, we always wanted to hide traditional foam leaves and moss and whatever we need it, we wanted to hide it. But it's been so funny. I've put it if you look on our Instagram foam labs. You can see a lot of times it's not hidden at all. It might even just have a few flowers at it. And people and said, God, I just love showing it. I almost didn't need to have a vase because it's so beautiful. And we're so proud that we're using something compostable. So I think it'll be fun for florists to not have to hide the mechanics in other ways. And we get very good at it. But yes, it will be fun not to do it. Not to do it. But some of the differences are is the soaking. So I just want, you know, I think it is going to be a big ask for florists because it's different. It's not exactly the same. It's very close. It works as well or better in most ways. But, you know, I'm sure they're going to say, yeah, they're going to naturally want to compare it to exactly the way traditional foam works. But you soak it, you know, fluorophones soak down the water and take some water. Ars does not. You have to hold it down right 45 to 90 seconds. And when the bubbles stop, you take it out. It is light. It does not weigh near as much as fluorophone when it's wet, which is, which is to me, a positive because you know, those like flower walls or whatever you do, you know, those can get so heavy. The fluorophone wet is heavy. Yeah, very. So that's a difference. We're carrying a full vase of foam. So it's going to be much lighter. It's got incredible rigidity, but also with major ease of getting all sorts of, I was worried with very thin stems of, oh gosh, but you know, goes in beautifully. And there's a video on our Instagram right now of a fabulous florist named Sophie. And she's on her Instagram with a whole video of using our phone so she can, you'll see that if anyone wants to go watch that, watch that video. But so the flowers go in beautifully, but they stay very, very rigid. And so for transportation, it's fantastic. It's also rewetable, which is another difference. And a traditional foam, you know, is not really rewetable or as you can add water in three days or so, you add water and completely soaks it up. And we were broadly pounded, which is wonderful in the US and Europe. So our product is patented. I know there's a lot of interest in compostability because there's been so much green washing. So let me explain that a little bit. So about foam with a pH, you know, we're in compostability certification process. It's a long and technical process. It's underway. We early on, our results have shown greater than 95% degradation in eight weeks. So let me go, let me say it again, early on, our results have shown greater than 95% degradation in eight weeks in an industrial compost pile. Now, the norm is much longer than that. So we feel there, we were very encouraged by that. There's more to go and keep posted, keep on our Instagram. We are, we should know in the next six months, we should have all of that information. So we're on it, we're in it, and we'll keep you posted. Price, I know that's another big question. Our foam, it will be more expensive than traditional floral foam, but it will be very price competitive and even less in some cases than any of the other alternatives to floral foam claiming to be sustainable. So we feel really good about the price that we're going to be able to offer. You know, when will it be on our shelves? When will we be able to get our hands on it, when I, when will I be able to play with that? We have a list of florists that want to play with it, and you will be able to play with it before it will be available broadly in commercialization. We are on this 24-7, as a matter of fact, in the next couple of weeks, we are going to both manufacturers in the US and Europe to, to, to make this. So we, we are, it is, it is our most, it is what we are after 24-7. We think and hope it will be available, you know, about the end of this year. Now that said, hopefully we'll even be able to get this out to florist trial before that in the next month or so. You know, as soon as we get some that we're happy with it being made, in, you know, we, we're going to send it out to people like you to get us your feedback, because actual florists, you know, we have sent it to florists, you know, Duncan and Gemma and Sophie, and there's people that have, have loved it. We want to get it out to our much broader basis to florists, so to give us their feedback. Yeah, so yeah, I think it's a really good thing, because there have been other products that have tried, you know, we've tried Agro wool, and we've tried even the biodegradable oasis, but of course it isn't biodegradable. So in the same situation, yes, it biodegraded, but, you know, everything biodegraded over, you know, hundreds of years. So we've started to use Agro wool, but actually it's not very user friendly, and it's quite expensive, in fact, very expensive, and kind of failed with it really, so it's kind of like, when we heard about you, it's quick, quick, let's talk to Dundee, let's see where they are with it, because this, I mean, to be honest, the world's been waiting for this product. And you think about traditional foam, you think about all those frames, and you think about these letters, which are done for few rules, and you think about, and how can you replace all that, and that's, that's, you know, where are we going to be in five years time, and this is really exciting. Well, you were asking me about the implications, and you know, I think two things. One, we want to be part, you know, there's been this movement, especially in the last two years, maybe longer, two sustainable floors, three, to make floors, three more sustainable, and I know, as a florist, florists want to be sustainable, they want to be environmentally friendly, but we have to help them, we can't just say be, you know, we can't just say be that, they've got to make a living, and we have to help them with their, with tools, and, and so we want to be part of that movement, and to be able to help florists do that, and make a living without, you know, without their creative ability being, you know, compromised, but also the CEA controlled growing environment, and indoor growing, or hydroponics, you know, they're having, they're having the same issues with the substrate. They have, they're using peats to grow. Well, peat releases a huge amount of stored carbon dioxide when it's harvested, which adds to greenhouse gases. You know, peat lands store more carbon than all other vegetation in the world, and, and the sale of, I think in the UK, you are, come to, a peat plant post is going to be banned in 2024. Yeah, it's banned in many situations now, anyway, it's banned, yeah. And then of course, they use traditional foam to grow food vegetables, and as, as crazy as that is, they, they use traditional foam, and of course, as we know it, that breaks down into microplastics, and it doesn't disappear. You know, and then, then they use rock wool, and they're a wool, which has huge, high, huge carbon footprint, breaks down into volcanic dust. And, and then they, their, their other substrate, they're using as cocoa core. And processing cocoa core requires a significant amount of water, which of course we know is shortage, takes 300 to 600 liters of water to wash one cubic meter of cocoa core. I mean, so it's, it's extremely party, but does not decompose quickly. The process can take several decades. So the, the indoor growing market, of course, with climate change is, they use a lot less water, they have no waste. So that's going to be the future of our growing. And so that is also really after a new compostable substrate. So that has big implications. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Wow. I wish I was involved. People who know me, know me in business know, well, also be a bit annoyed, you didn't get in the first place. So what's been your biggest challenge then in this whole journey? I mean, there must have been times when you just wanted to throw it all in and think we're never going to find this solution. Stay with us. We'll be right back. This podcast episode is sponsored by First Tunnels, leaders in domestic and commercial polytunnels. A polytunnel is an amazing protective environment for plants, vegetables and flowers, extending any growing season. And whether you're growing for pleasure or commercially, whether you go for a small or a large tunnel, you can be assured of the same high-quality product from First Tunnels, polytunnels. I personally have three of their polytunnels. Two of them have had for over 10 years, and I highly recommend First Tunnels, polytunnels for their product, and also for their great customer service, which is second to none. Do pop over to their website and take a look at their range. www.firsttunnels.co.uk Well, I do remember at time a couple of years ago, you know, I think it was hard for me as a non-scientist, just to get out of the lab is so hard because, you know, scientists work in this very pedantic, methodical way and for good reason. And I kept pushing, pushing, pushing, and it's been really hard to get out of the lab and into commercialization. But we're there, but for me, I was really, really impatient and not understanding how long all of these things take, not understanding being part of a startup. And, you know, I finally had to, well, one day, a couple of years ago, I did say to the two scientists, Mark Hillmeyer and David Goldfield, and I said, look, you know, we're putting our personal money in along with John and Leonard, and I just said, look, do we need to know when to fold them, you know, like Kenny Loggins? I was like, we've done a great thing. You all have written papers. There's great scientists behind all of this. But taking to commercialization, get a real product, should we just say we did aren't, we tried. And there was this long silence on the phone. And then they both said at the same time, absolutely not. And so, you know, that's kind of when I brought my husband in all of that. And, but this is groundbreaking. It's been groundbreaking every step of the way. The material has never been been been made before. But there's no manufacturers ever manufactured this before. So, we have had, it's been, it's really been difficult all the way along. And the problems, you think you're going to, you think you might know, but there are things you can't even imagine. Like, we were shipping material to Europe a few months ago. And with a professional shipper, didn't realize that the belly of the commuter jet on the runway that we had to transfer to was smaller than the transatlantic jet. They couldn't fit the crate on there and had to sit on the runway for two days and be driven across Europe, you know, things like that. So, there's all of these channels, but it's been really interesting because it made me, rather than being attached to the outcome, enjoy the process. And I know that sounds cliche. But the people that I've met like you, like millions of wonderful florists who have been, you know, cheering us on and manufacturers who are cheering us on and scientists around the world who are cheering us on. I mean, those are, it's the relationships they have been so rewarding. Yeah, it's a, it's a difficult one because, you know, it's a lot of investment both in time and end money over the years. And it's been a long journey. And I can understand that at times, it must be, is this actually really going to work? But it's supposed you have to believe, you really, really have to believe that you've got something that could actually change so much and so much about sustainability and make bringing the floral industry as a whole into really the 21st century. I mean, who are we still legally allowed to use something that doesn't buy a great environment is kind of beyond me, really? So, using Pete free is great, but how we still got away with using floral fame, I will never know. And also, you know, if you take it one step further, the consumer doesn't know. The consumer doesn't know when you'll turn up for a wedding that their flowers are in floral fame and they have no idea what that is on how it's used and how wise it's then or not. So, there's a massive PR job to be done. Because if I took 10 people who worked with us and said, okay, well, you know, I do your weddings and I do your few mores now, can I just ask for your opinion on floral fame? They would have no opinion because there's no press about it. So, that's another job that has to be done. It isn't that interesting. I mean, the more we dive into, you know, some of the things that it's just, it is shocking and it is, it's, you know, I've talked to some very, very well-known florist, even in California, where you think, oh, they would know and they don't even know and not only is it so harmful to our environment, it's harmful. It's good for the florist to work with and it is shocking that people don't know and it is so humbling and that's the thing. You asked about the implications earlier, you know, there's even, I can't really go into it because it's so down the road. But of course, these people that really do know what our product is all of what it's made of and how exciting it is because it's so brand new, which is why we're patented. They have come up with all kinds of other uses that people are wondering if maybe even the floral foam could be the smallest use of this material. So, it is humbling. It is humbling and but I am so dedicated as a florist to not move past the floral foam until we get that just right. And so, so it is, we are so dedicated to getting this ride and getting it out and getting it to all florists and keeping the price reasonable so everyone can afford to use it. But we, I have no doubt we are, we are, we are, we are so close if not already there. And also, Ross, we have just been fortunate to have literally I'm not kidding you people from around the world and I'm talking rocket science smart people and bringing everyone together to collaborate and and I just sit there in these meetings. I just want to say oh my god. So, that's why I know we'll get there because it is so much bigger than they and our team is phenomenal. Our little team at phone labs is is they are rocket scientists in in their realm whether they're you know whether there are engineers or scientists or CFOs or really we've been so fortunate. It must be inspirational for you to know that you're going to produce a product that that is going to save parts of the environment. Now, I'd love it to save the whole environment and I'd love us to reduce climate and change and I'd love it. But it's a start. It's a definitely start in the right direction and not to be able to see masses and masses of I spoke to a florist this week and she was a big London florist doing in big arrangements and massive luxury hotels in London. Big weddings like you've talked about before and she said at the end of the day there's a pile of it. There's an absolute pile of it and they're loading it in the van and it goes in landfill. And yeah, I think we're doing nice not to see that for a start. I mean, I'm an environmentalist by trade and having studied environmental science as a degree way back too many years and I want to remember. But we were talking about it then not necessarily a formal phone but definitely climate and sustainability and and and now roll on so many years more years and 40 probably than I care to remember that we're still not really moved any further if I was on this thing 40 years. So it's kind of like it's not about time we actually took control. I mean, my children always say to me, you know, they blame us and blame the industrial revolution of course. Yes. And you kind of say, okay, well, what can we do about it now? And they say, there's all your fault and of course it is. They're right. It is. That's right. So it's really really inspiring to see that we're making steps in the right direction and I'd love to see more of it. And it takes investment and it takes guts and it takes you know brain power. Yeah, it takes big. It's absolutely an inspiration, Dundee, to see what you're doing is very inspiring. I wish I was involved. I can't wait to get hold of it and just have a go with it. Like I say, it's environmentally sound really keen. All the people who belong to all my groups and memberships and following me on Instagram will be just as keen. So I can't wait to get this podcast published and see what happens. This will be really intriguing. So I want to thank you, Dundee, for coming over today. It's an absolute pleasure to talk to you. I could go on for hours and hours and hours but want to thank you at this time for coming over telling us about the new product. You must be extremely busy just trying to get it into full production. You know, I know you're coming across to Europe. I know you're off to Manchester fairly soon. Wow. That's all I can say. Big wow. And well done. It's amazing. Well, I loved Emma's second of talking to you. I could go on for hours. Dundee, thank you very much. Thank you very much. I look forward to next week's episode. Please don't forget to subscribe and rating review on your podcast app. We do have some wonderful free resources on our website at thecutflourcollective.co.uk. We also have two free Facebook communities which we'd love you to join. For farmers or those who want to be from our farmers, we have Cut Flour Farming, Growth and Profit in Your Business. And our other free Facebook group is Learn with the Cut Flour Afflector for those starting out on their Flower Journey. All of the links are below. I look forward to getting to know you all.