The School of Sustainable Floristry with Cissy Bullock

If you're someone who has a pressure for cut flowers, our environment and wants to make the world more beautiful, you're in the right place. Whether you're growing flowers for pleasure or profit, I'm on a mission to empower flower enthusiasts and professionals to help change the world around me. Whether you're just starting out and needing help in hand or looking to scale a substantial flower business, I'm your cut flower woman. Welcome to the Cut Flower Pods. So welcome Sissy, it is an absolute honour. I've been following you for a while and I've loved to introduce you to our audience today. I've followed what you've done and we don't live that far away from each other and it's madness that we haven't actually met in person but we're going to put that to rights. So tell us about your journey and how you came to where you are today about the work you do. Looking at researching you before this podcast, I know you have an unconventional career which is exciting. So do tell us about what you do, where you came from and why I'm conventional. Yeah, hi, it's really exciting to be on here. I think I'm quite an unconventional person really perhaps. And I never sort of went into my life with much of a plan but I was also that really beautiful daughter that went to school, came from a good family, you go to school and you get good grades and then you go and get a degree and you get good grades and then you go and get a good job and I was very much on that classic eventually. And I was always just a bit up for something slightly different as well. So when I went to like start university or work out what I wanted to do to university, I'd done to do Chinese which at the time was mad. I mean people would, I mean nowadays people are like, oh right, yes, Mark, at that time, it's just literally like, why? I mean honestly people couldn't complain why I wanted to do it. And why did I want to do it? Well it's just a bit different really wasn't it? I've got to go and spend my gap year, my gap year, not my gap, but my second year of like studying as a student in China and I was like, how cool is that? And I had a backup, I was always, I guess I've always been a little bit strategic, I thought well I'll do it with economics and then it because I liked economics. So if I didn't like the Chinese then I'll drop that and I'll just do economics. And I absolutely, I loved it, I loved it. My mum's Swedish so we grew up speaking a second language anyway. So perhaps that made it easier for me to pack a new language, I don't know, but I loved it. I loved living in China, I spent a year there as part of my degree. And then yeah I sort of finished, didn't really know what I wanted to do, but I knew I wanted to go to China so I just went at 25, I didn't realize that I'm after, it's carried on around doing what I wanted to do before that. And then I was like, just go to China, get a job, grab up, basically. But I went over there and I worked for this really cool, small strategic controlling business which had been set up by another super hardcore woman who'd gone to China on the 4th, on the 10th of June 1989. So it was quite a contentious fantasy in China and I'd ended up staying even though the business that she'd gone over hadn't quite, it's wanted to have it on doing that. She'd been there for years, she'd be able to change the new array of land and we helped small international businesses, not no, actually no, we helped big international businesses go into China and understand how to operate in China, understand government relations, understand like kind of strategic imperatives of working in China and a lot of that automatically meant that you have to be aligned with sustainability. So I kind of got into the sustainability side of businesses quite early doors and understood quite early on, it just made really good sense to me that if you just ran your business well, it was a good thing, you could run a business in the right way and make money and that's like a field for me as an idea. Anyway, long story short, I was in China for a long time, I ended up working in carbon trading which was mental and you know, that's a whole other podcast. And then I got married, met my husband in China and we left China, we went to Singapore and I really sort of fell through the gaps in Singapore. I didn't fit into the kind of, I guess, this is a more top-sticking approach to how... Eric, when, where we did it? Yeah, a bit, a bit, a bit lost in Singapore, I wrote live. And I ended up working again, totally kind of randomly and without much of a strategy or a clear plan, working with small businesses that were small sustainable consumer businesses and brands that were set up by really interesting founders who had a passion and a craft and had seen, you know, for example, this really cool company that made shoes and they made the soles of the shoes from repurposed moped tires and moped cycle tires in Indonesia. So taking all this landfill waste and then converting them into shoes at all these really incredible clothes that were made with women's pockets in India. Like just, if they were cool business, they would start by really interesting people. And I realised really early doors that the most successful businesses and the ones that I personally was most attractive to were the ones that the founder had a craft and something they were really passionate about. And then the business kind of grew organically and actually off the back of that. And I just thought, I haven't got a craft. And people were saying to me, can you speak Chinese? And I'll write, yeah, but I don't want to be a translator. That's kind of, I'm not, I don't speak Chinese that well. And that wasn't sort of, that didn't appeal. And I, but it was sort of lodged itself in the back of my mind. You haven't got a craft. And if you want to do something like your own business and something created in that way, you need to hone a craft, you need to do something like that. That sort of was in the back of my mind. And then we moved back to UK. I was pregnant with twins. And I'm a really long winded story, how I got into flourishing. But bear with me, at the top point. And then we got back to UK, we lived in Edinburgh, I had my twins. And my mum, bless her, who I've been out of the country for 12 months, for the years. And I think she's quite excited to have rantled and to have her daughter back in the UK. So she came up every week, for three months, from Monday to Thursday, to be with me in the twins, because I didn't know what I was doing, obviously. And, and at the end of three months, I wanted to give her a gift. So I went on this really lovely local florist website to give my mum a workshop. And there, on the website was this special training course. And you know, honestly, it just was in front of me. And I was like, that's what I want to do. That is, I know it's so unfair, Andy. And I was like, I want to invest in this course. You're like, OK, you're mad. And that was it. I just think these things come into your path. And I just, I, you know, I lived in Singapore, which doesn't really have seasons. And I was feeling I really needed to reconnect to like the idea of four seasons again. And yeah, it just, that sort of ended up in this course. And that was it completely got bitten by the bugs and, and well, it's them. So, well, so I trained in 2015. I literally, I had, I started going my twins with three months old. And I did one weekend a month, the six months, which was also great for like a mental wellbeing perspective, because my mother-in-law came up on those weekends and she and my husband looked after the twins, and then I got this thing that was, you know, not babies and was just so creative and so beautiful and so, you know, meditative and all those things that kind of you need to create some balance in your brain. And, and I did that for six months. And then, and then sort of, you know, kind of played around with flowers and basically ended up doing a friend's sister's wedding, a venue, which I had no idea how good the venue was. Like, I just, you know, turned up with the flowers. And they were like, oh, we like to all that. We like your flowers. Would you like to be on our recommended supply list? I'd like a complete idiot, you know, complete newbie novice. No idea. Oh, sure. Yeah. Okay. Quick, print some business cards, make a website, you know, like all those sorts of things. Anyway, had absolutely no concept that it actually is a very successful wedding venue. And that by being a recommended supplier, I just automatically then suddenly started getting in fire, and I wasn't quite prepared. Like, I don't, yeah, you know, anyway, of course, I responded and I was like, absolutely, I could do your wedding. Brilliant. I could do babies here and there, but it's fine. I had a son, you know, so my third child came along. But it was lovely because I could work my business. I saw my business grew and evolved around my kids. And I took putting things on when I wanted to or when I was able to. And, and it also, again, like the mental wellbeing thing, like it meant that I had something that was me that was not just my children. And, and so yeah, it's kind of evolved like side by side alongside my kids. And now they're all in school and, and the itch, like, you know, properly get back into the business of things is sort of being allowed to scratch. I've got a bit more time on my hand. I could just, I've got visions of you and the mother-in-law arriving with banks and all that stuff. Food and all sorts of things. And you jumping in your car. Oh, I get in your car and that rope. Yeah, it's my time. I've just got visions of you. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I honestly, I was so here from my children. Like, you know, they were hard for, but they took a long time to come to me. And so I was such a present mum, but yeah, on those weekends, I was really, I was somewhere else and it was lovely. Yeah. I get that bit. I really get that bit. So tell us about your current business and what inspires you now because you've, well, I've stemmed, but you're much more than well, what, what you currently do. Well, so, well, since it's kind of like an event forest, a studio forest, I guess, that's what people call them these days. And I realized really early doors that I wanted to work with British flowers. I mean, that aligns with kind of the sustainability angle of kind of my values. And then, and it sort of, I realized a couple of things. I sort of having worked with locally grown flowers for a few years and I'd bitten the bullet quite early on and said, I am never going to import anything. And that took me quite a long time to feel brave enough to do. There was that kind of, you know, the anxiety piece of like, oh, I'm just still going to import some flowers and, and what you're wedding on January the 3rd. Yeah, exactly. You just sort of think that that's how it's got to be. And so that took me a long time. And then I realized that actually there were probably other people that felt like that. But I also was watching the British cut flower industry and sort of observing like that and thinking about how that would grow. And I realized that actually, I think that the florists are a bit of a lynch pin within the industry to really a promote more sustainable practices from consumers perspective, but actually also really promote the cut flower industry. And, and I thought that there was a really interesting sort of way to leapfrog kind of, I guess, a more unsustainable path for most florists who should be literally grabbing them at the start and saying, right, this is how we do things. We only work with sustainable mechanics. We don't need to go down the kind of oasis roots and all those sorts of things because you don't need to. But also, this is how you work seasonally and sustainably and only with British flowers and British flowers do need a little bit of hair. They treat, they need to be treated differently. And I think the problem that's holding a lot of the British cut flower industry back is that florists don't understand that. When you get taught with imported flowers, you can be quite rough with them. They've been sprayed within an inch of their life. And that means that, which is why they're horrific. Sorry, they've just got no soul. They've got no, they're not alive. They've got no movement, scent and like energy. Like, yeah, I, you know, they're just completely different beef. And, but I think that the problem is that florists then think they can treat them in the same way. They can't. Then they don't really sort of perform in the same way. And then they think, well, I'm not going to do that. What a waste of money. I can't use that. I have to use imported flowers. And I thought, well, it's not true. You just need to approach it slightly differently. Well, how about we actually treat, teach florists how to do that. So, so yeah, I set up a school of sustainable floristry in partnership with a flower farmer in Bedford, who's quite low-to-state, actually. And, and yeah, we decided to launch this program really sort of around teaching florists how to work seasonally and sustainably all year round, but also sustainable kind of being a sustainable florist, both sort of an environmental and social perspective, but also from a financial perspective, because, you know, if you can't exist financially, then you haven't got a business either. And that was another piece of floristry training that I just think is missing, that, you know, people have taught how to arrange flowers, and no one's actually taught how to, how to like be a florist on the financial run-assable business society. So that's what we do. So yeah, it is the seasonless sustainable florist program was our flagship program, which we launched last year, and we run it through the four seasons, because there are obviously, you know, the flowers changed within the season within the seasons. But also what you have to be aware of and how you handle the flowers and how you design as a florist does also change within the four seasons. So it's one over six days. You come on the first season and it's a rolling intake, so you can start in spring, summer, or autumn. And you come to those first three days, we cover all the kind of fundamentals, and then you come back for another day in each of the following seasons to kind of work again, refresh the skills and also work with the flowers as they present themselves in that season. And then we also run a winter one as well, but I didn't think anyone wanted to start in the winter, but you know, might not be quite as fun. I think honestly, having a look at it sounds fantastic. I mean, obviously I'm a florist, but I'll be doing it for you. Oh, yeah, it can't. It's like, you're running and getting in your car and running away from your children. For me, that would be getting in my car and running away from life. General, you do it here, I'm coming to do something else. Oh, you know what? You're just very, you don't like them really understand why they're doing it. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, we have, it's really interesting actually. We have such different people that come to the course. So there's a lot of people that are like, I really want to be a florist, but I haven't yet, you know, taken the leap. That's great, because then you're kind of getting in before they're learning any of the bad skills that are thought of in the industry. But also we have experienced florists who perhaps want to bring in more sustainable practices or just bring in more British flowers into their work. And then, and yeah, then we have people who just do it because they love flowers and they grow their own flowers and they want to kind of use them and they're not necessarily wanting to go into a career, but they actually just, they cut it. I mean, it's in the most incredible setting. Yes. I agree. That was a strategic decision on my part as well, because who wouldn't want to go and cut flowers in this incredible 18th century wall garden and, and, you know, gather things up from the estate and then, you know, get to arrange in this beautiful, beautiful country house. And we, you know, everything, the others, like it's the whole ethos as well. So, you know, all the food that we eat is made from what's growing in the kitchen garden. And the venue, obviously, I should say, properly is a how we farm flowers, which is one by a lady called Lucy, who runs her flower farm in the incredible setting. Yeah. Absolutely. And I haven't met Lucy either, but that's on my agenda for the next couple of months. Lucy and I, Lucy helps me out and I help her out. As flower farmers, you have to collaborate, otherwise forget it. And you know, this actually requires collaboration. You haven't always got everything you need all the time you need it. So I needed, I need 50 alliums on Sunday. And I didn't have 50 alliums I wanted on Sunday. So Lucy went out and cut them on Saturday night, wrapped them for me. I conditioned them. I'm conditioned them. I picked them up on Sunday morning at 6am. And that's what you need. I'm going to need that. Well, I haven't got that. Have you got that? You know, if somebody ran me today and said, you know, I need loads of sweet rocket or I need black ball cornflowers, I've got two ones, but I haven't got black ball. You've got any. I'd go, yeah, I've got loads or have you got any queen of sweet and she could give you a hand of what you got. So it's kind of like without collaboration. That's lovely. And I think, you know, I really like that about the industry. I think a lot of people come into our industry with this sort of like really collaborative mindset. There's not that scarcity mindset of like, oh, this is my system and these. I'm not going to tell anyone who wants to know. I think everybody actually, maybe, maybe, because it's a more female led industry. I don't know, but it is a much more open. People are just much more willing to support each other. What's what great with this question? Yeah, I know. I know. So it's a weird industry. If you think about it, one of these industries, I was talking to my husband about it. Some of these industries that you put everything in the ground, you make all this investment. You've got all these tunnels and greenhouses if you're going on scale and haven't sold anything yet. And it must be one of the only industries at which you put all this in with the hope of something happening in the future. And you must believe that's going to happen and you obviously got a strategy to happen. But there aren't many industries that would go, oh, let's do all this and we'll just sit in a way and we'll be the weather's good to happen. If the weather's not, that won't happen. And our backup plan is ABC. And always having a backup plan. That's why it's collaborative. You know, if anyone wanted 33,000 tulips in April, they were more than welcome to them. And we call it tulip gate here at this house because it was real tulip gate. So it's like, you have 33,000 tulips. Oh my goodness, how are you going to get rid of 33,000 tulips? Because you've worked out the cost for tulips. So if you haven't got collaboration with that, I don't know. And I think working as a season, there's florist in this space. Again, like I am my spouse only as good as my suppliers. But I think it's like the food industry as well, you know, from the forestry perspective, you know, the best chefs have worked out that they need to go straight to their farmer and they get incredible food and they have. And I think it's really interesting about like what's happened in the world sort of on a supply chain level. And I think that what's happening in the forestry is kind of reflecting those changes in other spaces. So, you know, the supply chain's just got really long and really sort of what's word, no one knows who's where and where things have come from, anonymous, that's what I'm going to call. And global, whereas then in the food industry, what's starting to happen is that people have sort of gone, oh, hang on, I don't actually, I'm not sure that that's what I want. I want actually to know that the provenance of the food that I need being or that I'm going to use in my restaurant and I'm going to shorten my supply chain massively down and I'm going to build really close relationships with those farmers to provide incredible food for like my incredible restaurants in London or wherever it is. And I think it's the same in forestry and I think actually what we're starting to see amongst the season bedfellers of which there's a growing number. They've realised that and the supply chain, that long anonymous supply chain does doesn't fit with their values because they want to know the people that are growing their flowers are being well treated and they want to know what's on their flowers and that the land is being well looked after. And also, they really want quality. And, you know, when I speak to my growers about a wedding, like they plant for me based on my colour palettes or, you know, they will bend over backward to make sure that I've got what I need when I need it if I have a big wedding. And I just think, you know, that relationship with your supplier is so important and has a massive value. And I think people haven't thought maybe more widespread that hasn't sort of been understood. Yeah, I think so. I mean, we'll come on to later, but I mean, there are some obviously issues with the supply chain and there's some issues with the whole labelling of flowers in supermarkets so people can't make an educated choice about what they buy and don't buy. So the whole industry needs a complete shake up. So if I don't use anything else, I'll just see that. Yeah, and that's why I think that, again, that's kind of going back to why I think the florist is such an important kind of middle kind of lynchpin within that because people go to their florist for flowers. I mean, I know supermarket flowers is a huge kind of art of the industry now. But people do still go to their forest for flowers. And at that point, you as a forest have a really important ability to say, well, actually, we're getting those issues the reason we're going to do is you have the ability to educate your customer and to say no to them for a certain, you know, not just fucking out right now. But well, you know, we don't do things that way because of this and have you thought about that. And most times people go, I'd never even thought of that. Okay, sure. And they take your recommendations as you are the expert. And I think that there's a real role for kind of consumer awareness and education that the florists can play, which again, I'm not sure that the florists are sort of, as I mean, this group have realized the power that we hold in that regard. I mean, a florist school still, we're on floral foam 100%. And there's no such thing as biodegradable floral foam. But yeah, what's your thoughts? I mean, I think that people don't understand floral foam. I think that's a big thing. And how we are still allowed to use it and how it is still manufactured still defies or logic to me. And I'm not quite sure why we haven't found alternatives to it. You know, what the big thing, why we can still have letters for funerals, which are still made out of law foam. What why is that still allowed to happen? Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. I mean, I think business and I think, and I think also, people are just frightened, aren't they? People have always frightened of making things and frightened. I think, you know, a lot of florists when you're taught in that way. I mean, even when I started forestry and I obviously was taught with like, me, traditional flowers, I always thought with a basis as well. I realized quite quickly that I just absolutely didn't want to be the basis. So I kind of, I didn't feel that I needed permission for that. But for example, I use weeds a lot in my arranging. I think they're amazing. I love them. I find if I don't, things look a little bit too pretty and I need to rough them up. And it took me a long time to sort of give myself permission to use different materials and to understand that that was actually okay and that there wasn't a rule about what you could and couldn't use it in forestry. And I think that when you've been taught something in your forestry school, you're taught that that's how it's got to be. And so you then kind of go, but that's how it's got to be. And then you're frightened of not giving a product that is good enough. So you don't want to take the risks that, you know, most might not work as well as a phone or what have you. And I think, yeah, I think it's confident. But again, that was also sort of a lot of the reason why I went back to set up the school because I just couldn't believe I genuinely was just gobsmacked that no one had done it yet. And I kind of joke with Lucy that our business is obsolete in the future. And that's the objective that we almost want our business not to exist in the future because it doesn't need to be the school of sustainable forestry. It's just that's how forestry is thought. But obviously, that's a long, long run way for that. But yeah, floral foam, you know, and you work, you exist in this kind of echo chamber, I think, when you work within the sustainable firewall, do you think that everybody is like realised that you shouldn't use full foam and that there are a million different ways of doing things and that work just as well from the performance perspective to delivering flowers. And then you suddenly, you know, you watch something like what's a billionaire balloon from TV, you're like, oh, my God, people don't like I can't believe it. Why would you need to use foam? But yeah, I just think it's confidence and training. So yeah, the school was very much set up to basically leapfrog, to get in there early and stop people going down. One of the florists that Lucy speaks to says it's like smoking, oh, oh, I like smoking and it's like an addiction and it's very difficult to give up once you've started because it's quite a comfort blanket. So if we can actually teach people not to smoke or use full foam in the first place, it's a lot easier because people then go, yeah, I think you've never used it. Why would I use that? I think it's an understanding. I think when you say to people, I say to people, well, no, we don't use it because it doesn't degrade at all in the environment. And they, what, what, not at all? No, never. Not in your lifetime, not in your children's lifetime. That is not degrading in the environment. I think like you, I kind of happened on this whole creative farming thing by a complete accident. You know, I was one of those people who I did in environmental chemistry degree because I wanted to be a doctor and I wasn't clever enough. So I had these three, three A levels. I said, oh, of course, that one looks nice. You get out in the moor, is that one looks nice? I do that one. Didn't even know what the word environment went. But it meant I could go and live away for three years. So that was fine. And I mean, my little 850 mini down the M5, that was to the seaside. That was more than enough. So it's a piece of environment. I came out of that thinking and then I went and did something completely different in marketing out completely wild for years and years and came back round again to sort of think, hmm, quite like I went on a half day course, learned about a couple hours ago. Oh, that sounds interesting. What about to do that? And it kind of you happen. So that's the danger, but you do, of course, and look what happens. So about, you go, oh great, let's come on. I mean, I love it. And the reason I love it so much is that no two days look the same. I get to, when I run my own business, I get to use all the kind of business bits that you know, you might get in a proper job. But I then also get all the fun, like creative aspects of it as well. I absolutely am not afraid to get my hands dirty. I love rolling out my feeds, washing out buckets and having a lot of top options. But you know, like I do, like I love that. I love it being really buried. The thought of going back to a regular 95 now. Oh, I think I have a kid. I'm unemployed. I'm unemployed, isn't it? Well, I've accepted that. So I've had a job in an office and every 10 minutes I needed to get up and go and walk outside. I'm not quite sure they'd really go for that. Yeah. No. I'm always sorry. I'd have to look at the state of those nails. I'd have to get my nails done. So the answer to that is no. I was going to ask you what does a day look like? What does an average day look like? Yeah, no, honestly, no two days look the same. And I kind of tend to actually, and I'm a little part of what I keep the florist that come on to the program is that you need to look at your year and your business and everything that you do holistically and you need to approach everything from it and kind of looking at it from a whole year rather than day to day month because, you know, when you are a season that's always obviously you're working with British Bowers to have a summer season. I mean, I'm going to best of course. Yeah. The things tend to go quieter in the winter and therefore, you know, it's not like I've got to make revenue of extra amount every month because some months are going to be leaner than others and that you then, you know, you look at your whole year. So your fat year, your fat months will carry your thin months sort of thing. And I suppose, yeah, so my days, none of my days at the same, I look at my life sort of more holistically that, you know, I have busy a month and I have quieter months and within each week I have kind of busy a days and quiet days. I try and kind of have a day that is in the studio where I get to kind of practice just for myself because it is a discipline, you know, it's a creative discipline for a reason you've got to be disciplined about your practice. I think I just, I've sang on about that all the time. But you've always learned, you've always got to learn, you've always got to kind of improve the skills, invest in yourself. And that is, and also invest in yourself. So for me, spending some time quietly in the studio is as much an investment in myself and my balance as it is in my business and my face and it's being my product. Definitely. Yeah, I mean, I always equate being a flower farmer and a florist to something like a deck chair, someone who rents a deck chair on the beach, okay? You've kind of got this type of opportunity between April 1 and the end of October going into November and December of your cover in Christmas. But there are some really quiet months. January and February are really bad unless you're forcing tulips, but that's a whole different podcast. But January and February is a really hard time. And therefore you've got to work it out. So you've got to get it to, well, okay, if I need to make £10,000 a month in my business, I need to sell roughly 10,000 stems. Have I grown 10,000 stems? We've got a market for 10,000 stems. If I haven't, I'm not going to make £100,000 a year. This is sort of a equation. But because if you don't grow enough, you haven't got enough to sell. And if you haven't got a market to sell it to. And I think that's going back to, okay, how do we do this? How do we, I mean, that's why I've told the team, we have a team meeting today and we sit down over a cup of tea and a biscuit and outside the polygonal. And we work out how we're going to grow 10,000 stems and how we're going to sell 10,000 stems because that's basically, you know, we start with that. And I think in this space, I think both in the sort of cut flower industry and in the forestry space, you know, people kind of come into it for the love of flowers and they sort of, they gravitate towards it because of the creative passion and the love of growing. And often don't then come with the kind of commerciality or unapproaching it in thinking in that way. And I think, and I mean, I think that's kind of the biggest risk to success, right, of your business because you can get into something because you love it so much. And I was just like, oh my God, I'm going to do a wedding for nothing because I love it. And I just want to do a wedding. And I think it's until you've done like, you know, maybe something's going to cut flowers until you've done a massive, forestry job and you get to the end of it and you are absolutely shattered and then you think, I did not get paid enough for that. You know, it loses its lustre. So it's fine sort of the first couple of times. And then you'll suddenly like, no, hang on a minute. I need to get paid properly for this because I'm exhausted. That took so you got so much out of me. And I don't feel that that was a fair transaction. And I think that maybe everybody needs to go through that kicking point, but I guess kind of, you know, hopefully that I need banging on about it a bit more people kind of get up that learning to have a bit of a better because you burn out. Definitely don't do too much polio building. Yeah, I've heard so much about it. I need it more my book fully. And then you burn out ultimately and then you leave and you know, I've seen countless forests walk out of the industry because then after they've been burned out and didn't get, didn't actually sort of get that side of it right, which is a tragedy, really, because then you burn your passion and I think it's really important to kind of be able to marry both. Absolutely. So tell our listeners we've both got thoughts on the British Cup flower industry. What needs to change when I'm moving forward? Of course we need to be more sustainable. Of course, it needs to be masses amounts of education. For me, there needs to be labeling of flowers in supermarkets. People make a choice. They make a choice at the moment they have no choice. They have not an educated choice because they do not know. So that's a big thing kind of on my agenda. So lots of education training, commerciality, marketing, supply chain. It sounds really sort of insurmountable. I went to the US last year with another flower farmer from the UK to the American conference of the American Cup flower specialty conference. It's another world, but it was absolutely educational. And that's also it about investing in yourself and going to learn, isn't it? And they have much more about collaboration. So their job is to get cut flowers in the hands of florists. And the only way we're going to do that is if it's easy. Because at the moment a florist will go on a website to a Dutch wholesaler order. It will arrive on Wednesday. I'll order 20 of those, 30 of those. Here's my card gone. Easy peasy. At the moment with cut flowers and flower farmers, they've got to travel in their car all over the place. Let's pull it back to cheer and into my land. So four or five different flower farms to get exactly what they want to get. So I'm going to buy 100 cornflowers over there and 20 David Austin roses over there and 50 alliums over there. And they're really good at being this, so I'm going to get theirs from there. And it's taken them a whole day. Now they've got the most amazing array of flowers, but it's taken a whole day out of their time when actually they could have sat on their computer just logging in and buying them. So until we crack that, and certainly for London florists, until we crack this, no, you can't have to buy it off the cover market. You can go online and buy it all and we can supply it from a distribution hub. I believe that's the way forward in order for flowers to even begin to use lots, lots of rich plants. Yeah. Yeah, and the really in two minds about this, I totally agree. I think that it is important to make it frictionless and easy for the customer. And I do wonder like, are the British flowers, it needs to be super easy and it needs to ensure minimal movement of the flowers, I think as well, because the more that the flowers get moved around and transported in hotcard, the more they transpire, the less they live like they last long in the bath. So it does need to be extremely well facilitated, I think from that perspective of the farmers understanding, I think there needs to be a lot of training amongst flower farmers around cutting the point that you cut in the flower. I feel see this from farmers that I buy from the cutting at the wrong time, I get them that I can't use. I think that there's a real, again, people have been taught how to grow, but people aren't being taught what to do with the flowers once they've been grown. So much that even writing English, I don't know. Like that idea of like, okay, now you've got a field full of flowers, at what point do you cut them? How do you then condition them? How do you ensure that when you hand that product over to your customer that their bars are going to be the best? I think so there's a bit, and then also from the, from the flower's perspective of like, right now you've got those flowers, how do you then condition them again and make sure that you're going to get the best bars life? I think that that is a piece that is missing in anybody's training. Not in our training, obviously, but at the school we definitely cover the conditioning side of it to an inch of its life. But I think in flower farming training, I haven't seen as much of that. And then anyone that then runs that hub, they've got a lot of responsibility around the storing and looking after those flowers. I think also getting the quality of flowers up to the standard is, so if you've got your flowers in a hub and they're alongside somebody whose quality isn't as good as yours, I don't know that as the forest I just come and buy. So again, I think that idea of elevating, creating almost some sort of standard within the flower industry of grading of quality, I think is possibly a really important thing that we need to do. And then I think, but also I do sort of think that there is, it's just thought of it lazy, do you know what I mean? And I think that maybe in some way, we as forest have got to be a bit less lazy and as customers have got to be a bit less lazy and sort of actually not expect the world to just operate on a kind of next day delivery basis. And actually the best thing do take a little bit of effort and do take a little bit of time to get. And they're worth painful. And so I factor into my wedding plan and my costumes, but I will take time. In fact, I'm going to get off this call and I'm going to go and get in my car and I'm gathering up flowers for weddings and funerals. And that is just part of my day. And I listen to podcasts and just kind of call friends and do all those things in the car that I can't do otherwise. But yeah, I don't know. I do think that there is definitely a hub spoke model is something that needs to happen. I think that there's sort of other pieces that needs to happen around quality and sort of cutting things like that in advance. Yeah. Well, I'll let you when I'm investigating. Yeah, we do. Excellent. Well, I think it's a technology piece, which is the bit I'm okay with. And it's a big marketing bit, absolutely. Yeah, fine. Because that's my background. Marketing and the technology in order to put the hub together is part of the picture. Investment house is another part and getting PM just another part of it because actually it will take some investment. And then the third thing is, okay, well, let's test it. Let's have a model that tests it with five or six flower farmers and see how this works. It's going to have to do it regionally. The right you say, how are you going to get the clouds in the hands of the right people and the chain isn't too long? Because then we're not we're building out a live chain, which actually never really wanted that. You just wanted to be really sure. Can I tell you what my genius idea, if anyone's listening and wants to take this on, if you want to get flower farmers, I mean, it might not work. I think it's really clever and I think it works. You want to get your locally grown cut flowers direct to your customer, put them on a milk float and your milkman delivers your milk and your fresh flowers because they can have them in water on the back of the milk float. They're going door to door and then they can just say they only come on a Friday, you know, or whatever, my milk gets delivered here on a Monday and a Thursday so I could have my cut flowers for a weekend delivered on a Thursday. I love the amazing, I mean, it's a different business, but I feel like there are some infrastructure chains that exist that might be interesting to piggyback on rather than trying to reinvent the wheel. But yeah, that is. I mean, look at the different model. Look at the whole kind of getting it into hands with the customer model. So it's almost like could Amazon deliver British cut flowers in a way because that would definitely get it in the hands of the consumer. That kind of like, I mean, I've got a little Morris Minor, I want to ask you, it's not mine. Do you know, I've got a little Morris Minor, wasn't really, I've got a really monosm minor in my husband's got a really good nice Morris, which I, it's had renovated, which is lovely. And my idea was to fill the whole Morris Minor with British cut flowers on a Friday, just drive around the little, almost like an ice cream ban with a barrel and go, do you want my cut flowers and pass that along the way? And so if you want them, come and choose your bouquet for this weekend. And it's kind of like, yeah, you've got all these ideas and it's about how can we get it in the hands of the consumer quickly? Yeah, totally. But also knowing who your customer is. I think that's a challenge for our industry and sort of for a lot of the flower farmers. Personally, I actually think that maybe it's just for world stems and like kind of my audience, but I actually think that the audience isn't kind of like, I guess the older, wealthier clientele, which people perhaps sometimes think it might be, I actually think it's the younger creative classes out of like the cities who understand kind of the values of why we do what we do and understand the value of the creative sort of component within that and the artisanal values. And they're kind of like the, you know, they're the change makers, they're the sort of early movers and they're the ones that go and eat in the kind of restaurants that share their values in that respect. And actually the flowers kind of is the next sort of the next dot in that line. And actually I think that then it's then for the flower farmers and for the same to ever to be thinking, okay, well, how do I reach them? Because I think traditionally it's been sort of more down the RHS sort of gardening line. And I personally don't think that that's our audience. I think they've got their values in their garden. And because they've got their values in their garden, they actually don't perceive the value because they're like, I've got that growing in my garden. Why am I paying you? You know, a pound of stem for that. So they're degrading the value almost in that it doesn't exist. Like what do you mean you've got up and invested in digging the trenches, mulching and you know, weed membrane and you know, getting out there and cutting the five in the morning. And then you know, that none of that component sort of passes through their consciousness, whereas I think actually the younger sort of generation is more aware of that sort of thing. And I think definitely it took me a while to work, I had a number of different ideal customers and I call them names and I draw all the passports of them and I work out where they are and what they're from a marketing point of view of course. And I actually found my customer was not who I thought it was going to be. And they were January younger and they give in melting kings and they live in fairly new houses and they don't have massive gardens. So actually, it's lots of flowers. So they have a passion for blooms but they don't have acres of land and therefore they want to buy flowers and be surrounded by flowers because that's not what they have in their natural environment and they want it. So it's very deep where it was traditionally I'd have thought it was, you know, if you look out the villages of the North and that would change you to think, oh yeah, the wealth is there and they're much older and they're landed gently. And but actually they're not because they've got their own gardens and goes back to, well why would I pay that for that when actually I brought my own garden? So there is about a bit about getting the ideal customer right for sure. So I will be driving on Fridays through the whole of melting kings, bringing more of them and buying stuff. That's a lot of populations there. The two hundred thousand people are sitting there waiting for a switch of flowers. So I think that's the whole climate change question around the future of the industry and even like the forestry, you know, I'm changing my designs actually as the weddings and things to factor in the heat and like how am I going to get, is that, you know, if I'm going to make an arch in the middle of July and it gets up to 40 degrees, hang on a minute, I need to actually fundamentally go back and think about how I design that and what I use in it. And do I actually use cut flowers? So I'm, you know, I'm going back to the design board as it were for a lot of my biggest designs and, and yeah, again, things we taught, we teach on our course. Yeah, I've been in the first thing I saw, I really love made of dried flowers was in the flower farmer's tent at, I haven't come caught last year. And it was big, it was an enormous installation. It was all done with dried flowers and it was actually beautiful, really beautiful because I think dry cows can be beautiful but can be really awful too. But this was so well done that I thought, yeah, I could have that. That looks lovely. I can do that. And it's about your right. I mean, doing an arch in July and 40 degrees, you know, last year we were going to do the foliage on one day going back, replacing some of it and putting the flowers in like an hour before the wedding. So if that's what you've got to do, you're kind of got a plan for that, you know, and foliage and flower rings in a marquee overnight where the humidity is huge. So you've got to go back and do it that day. Well, you've got to be able to have the resource to do that. I think, yeah, it is quite frightening what's going to happen. And then they're talking, we're going to have a hot July normal again this year. It was like, yeah. And also what you grow. I mean, you know, the need to invest in perennials to kind of, because they've got their roots down and they can kind of draw on deeper water sources and drought and stuff. Like I think that's, you know, that's a whole other piece, which again, for a flower farming perspective, it's an enormous investment, you know, the time, like the length of time for those plants and those shrubs to get their legs down is massive. So yeah, but you know, I do think that that's investment that the humidity is going to happen now. And don't talk about foliage. Oh, I talk about the investment in foliage because you need to be here. Yeah, absolutely. But again, I mean, Lucy and I talk about this all the time. I have long lists of like plants and foliage and things. I think that's an example of the school, you know, as the numbers increase on the courses that we're teaching, you know, we need to make sure we've got the suppliers, flowers and foliage to meet the past. Come on. Yeah. So you talked about podcasts that you listen to and books that you read. Any, any ones that you'd recommend besides obviously the cut now. Obviously. But are there any, um, you know, I'm really bad. I should say that I listened to like really, you know, I spend all my time reading and listening to things related to flower farming and forestry. No, I don't. I actually maybe, maybe it's like a balancing because I literally spend all my time thinking about forestry and things. So I currently on podcasts, I love listening to British candles. I'm completely obsessed with it. And so is my son and we, he's, he's only little, but we listen to the great train rubbery and the hat and gardens. Um, one, I mean, he hasn't listened to some of them highly and appropriate, but he's completely obsessed. I'm slightly concerned that I'm cultivating a future bank robber either that or an excellent detective, because he's totally obsessed. He makes me look up what Bonnie big looks like on me. Because he's a great train rubber was. Um, yeah. So, but I love it. It's brilliant. Was it good? You have to admit that was it? Yeah, though. I mean, it's ripping yarn. But, um, yeah, they're fascinating. I quite enjoy listening to that. And, um, I do also sort of listen to, um, my husband works in tech. So he's always like, oh, I listen to this business. Um, you know, podcast and what have you. So I do quite like listening to your fun. Like, I really, I think they're quite interesting to keep in there. I like the time CEO. Yeah. I was introduced to one this weekend by my daughter, actually, and it was one about, and they invited guest speakers on to talk about what their ideal four course meal would be. Can't remember. It's cool to have to look it up and put it in here where it was absolutely brilliant. And it was really funny. And the episode we listened to was we have Joe Bran, who, her meal was just awful. Cause age can't cook. And the other one was Nadia. How was that? That was fantastic. She was so funny. She was hilarious. She was like, the woman doesn't see. Yeah. You don't have to be your friend, I think. I've been to do. She's addicted. So it's, it's, it's, it's sort of like comedians. I used to out and they just, the thing is funny. And it's brilliant. And we were just listening. I thought, God, I've got, I'm obsessed. I've got a list. It's more of this. But Nadia, her saying her little secret was she doesn't drink. She liked water, but she doesn't drink cold water or warm water. She always has a tepid water. And then there was this big conversation about, well, how did you get tepid water? You have to have boiling water and then you have cold water and then you make, and then I was thinking stupid, but it was, I have to tell you that and what exactly did it because, but I do listen to podcasts that I look at this. Yeah, I think that's the balance, isn't it? You know, you can spend your whole time like thinking about these things that you don't end up sleeping because all you're doing is thinking about work. So yeah, I like, like, I think thinking I've got to swim the tulip heads off. You know, I thought, what am I doing? The first thought that comes into my mind is I need to swim the tulip heads off. Otherwise I'm going to go to Sweden, I'm not going to get them back. It's like, what are you doing? I know. So yeah, balance is important. So you go listen to some really funny podcasts. I totally, high values. Definitely, definitely. So any thoughts on future plans, obviously school of sustainability is going to be massive and lit. Oh, I hope so. So any thoughts on future plans? What's the rest of the year next year look like years? Yeah, just more of the same. More of the same. I just, you know, I'm really lucky that my floristy business has got to the stage where I can really pick and choose on kind of the weddings that I want, that I want to do. And, um, so I, you know, just get to be really useful, weddings are really nice people. And they totally get my values and they understand that I don't import and things. So that's really cool. So I love it. I love doing that. I think that's really, you know, that creative side. I don't want to get rid of that. I love it. And yeah, and just the school and, you know, maybe sort of standing on my soapbox a bit more about, you know, things that need to happen within the industry and raising awareness around. Season of the forestry might do a bit more of that might do a bit more challenging. Right. Two cents. Oh, I mean, I mean, I mean, I thought about that. I can self publish on Amazon. I've done two and it's tough, but you can do it. You could do the world need another book about flower reinding. Maybe, maybe I think about an angle that they need to. I think about flower industry. Yeah. Yeah. I love a mul. But, you know, I also, I really want to try and maintain balance. I want to be around my little kid while they still want me around. And so the point, until the point they're like, you can go right now. We've had enough of you. At which point, you know, I'll probably. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, endlessly trying to like not get totally sucked into work. But the problem is that I love it. And so it's actually what I want to be doing as well. So yeah. But yeah, just really sort of raising awareness about the school and about season ed forestry. I think it's kind of the focus for the next 12 months. And I'm trying to grow sweet peas. Because, you know what, I am rubbish at growing sweet peas. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. And I thought I had done so well. Are you watering them enough? I think some direct sunshine. Are they attached to a thing? Are they growing up? I do know why it's called, I do know why it's called plant nursery. Because it is like raising children. Like you need to give that much attention to your seedlings in your plant. And so yeah, maybe, maybe I'll just actually focus on the three I've got at home before I try and grow more. Well, sissy, we will get. Oh, definitely. Yeah, absolutely. I'm going to make you a little bit more. You would lose it. How do we farm? I would go over and eat. Now it's madness. Because we get so self obsessed. And it's even worse when your children have fled the nest as mine to have and have their own careers in London. You can actually spend more time. So you can actually work harder. That's not really. But that's the truth. Because we haven't got the other responsibilities. So it's like, well, I'll just work harder. And I'll listen to more plants and I'll read more and I'll grow more and I'll expand this business. And I and Dan Dan when actually sometimes the families are coming. They should come into the studio and come and have the flower. Oh, gosh. Yes. Yeah, that would be really creative, wouldn't it? Oh, yeah. No, that would be good. Oh, yeah. I love these thoughts. I wish I would go with the talk. In the show notes, how to get to your sustainable forestry school, which is amazing. And also willing to just Lucy will get Lucy on the podcast. Yeah, absolutely. And we, yeah, it's really nice to meet you. And thank you very much for joining us. Oh, no, the first of all mine. Thank you very much. Thank you. I look forward to next week's episode. Please don't forget to subscribe and rate and review on your podcast app. We do have some wonderful free resources on our website at thecutflowercollective.co.uk. We also have two free Facebook communities, which we'd love you to join. For farmers or those who want to be from our farmers, we have cut flower farming, growth and profit in your business. And our other free Facebook group is Learn with the Cutflower Collective for those starting out on their flower journey. All of the links are below. I look forward to getting to know you all. ♪