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Welcome to the Cut Flower Pods.
So, hello everybody and thanks for joining us and I'd like to introduce you to Bethany
Harris.
And Bethany, tell us about yourself, what you do, where you are.
I came across you obviously with a study you're currently doing.
So, tell us about what your, tell us about your journey and where you are today and a
little bit about you.
Sure, so I guess I started my journey.
It was back in 2016, so I originally was a personal trainer, decided I needed a career
change, just mentally and physically, burnt out and exhausted.
And I was always interested in public health and health promotion.
So after doing a bit of career research, decided that I wanted to become a health psychologist.
So I enrolled onto a psychology degree with the Open University.
And then after that, when I did my masters in health psychology and now I'm onto the
PhD, which is the final stage to becoming a fully qualified health psychologist.
Wow, that is a good change.
I mean, obviously PT is all about health, more bodily than mind health, but some mind
health and you probably crossed over thinking, gosh, there's much more to mind.
Yes, definitely, definitely.
So tell us about what you're currently doing in your PhD.
I mean, this is some study and I'm really interested in what you're currently doing
with your PhD.
Yeah, so my PhD, it's half funded by the University of Surrey, half by RHS Whizzly.
And it's really looking at the design and use of gardens to optimize wellbeing outcomes.
So obviously there's a lot of research at the moment that suggests that spending time
in nature and in gardens can boost our health and wellbeing.
So it's really kind of looking at the fine tuning, the elements of what is it about
gardens and within gardens that really does promote wellbeing and health outcomes.
Wow, when did you start that?
I started January 22.
So yeah, January 22.
So tell us what you've worked.
I mean, a PhD, I don't know how long you've got three years, five years.
Four years.
Oh, in the middle, four years.
Yep, right in the middle.
So your PhD is obviously about being outside and mental health.
So how do you start that?
What do you start with?
Well, so this is what I had to get my head around when I obviously started the PhD just
reading all the literature, getting my hands on as much information as I could about nature,
health and wellbeing and particularly therapeutic and healing gardens.
So obviously I'm a psychologist by training little garden designer.
So I had to get my head around all that literature in the world of garden design.
And one of the first things I did was kind of do a big systematic review.
So I looked at all the different design recommendations for healing and therapeutic gardens and kind
of analyzed all the things that everybody was saying, put them together in a nice paper
so I could identify all the features that make healing gardens.
And what are they?
I mean, trees.
Oh, there's many. I think it's about kind of fostering a sense of serenity, kind of creating
a calming and relaxing environment, encouraging wildlife and birds into the garden, including
like water features.
People love the sound of running water, trickling water, using lots of plants, multi-sensory
plants, lots of variety, lots of colors, lots of scents, lots of textures, textures, creating
nice little spaces for privacy and seclusion.
So little looks that people kind of escape to and feel safe and secure, yet have big,
open and expansive views so that they can see out as well.
Yeah, lots of things.
So therapeutic gardens are generally where?
Where are they?
I don't know very much about them.
No, neither.
Well, they're not really, you don't really see there are critical healing gardens in the
mainstream, like everyday places.
But at the moment, I think they're more in places like healthcare facilities, hospitals,
respites, like hospices, care homes, things like that, seem to be where they're mostly
based.
It would be amazing to get it into mainstream, wouldn't it?
Definitely.
And this is where my research is coming in.
So we're looking at basically, yeah, optimizing the design of gardens for just general population
as opposed to specific clinical populations, which it might be similar, might be a bit
different.
But yeah, it's...
Springing, some of that in everybody's garden, I would think, because personally I love the
sound of water.
And I like, I've got a little Mediterranean garden around the mother back in my house
where the sun comes first in the morning and that's very sort of zen because it's got
sort of water feature and I really love it.
And then, yeah, you're right, a little place which you tend to build a garden quite open
and you have a seating area but it doesn't necessarily evoke privacy or a private space.
That's normally, I mean, for me it's by the side of my pond and I promise myself every
day I'm going to sit there and contemplate and I never do.
So it's all about that.
It's about taking time out in nature as well because we're very busy doing our gardens,
that's for sure.
And obviously it's a flower farm where I'm really busy, flower farm.
I kind of forget that actually what you should just do is sit there and have your lunch
and the policeman love next to the pond and eat the sandwich and therefore contemplate.
But I think, yes, so four years is a long journey.
So how have you done so far?
What have you found out so far?
It's quite exciting.
Yeah, so obviously I started by doing the big review on design literature and then my
second study which I've just finished.
I basically got visitors to RHS Whistling to walk around the wellbeing garden with a
little survey and I asked them to stop at specific points in the garden and just reflect
and take a moment to kind of notice their surroundings and acknowledge how it made them
feel and just identify what emotions, different aspects of the garden evoked in them.
And by doing that I was hoping to identify specific features or design elements that
can evoke different emotions in people with the aim of informing design obviously.
Wow, because it's everything.
It's texture, it's scent, it's wildlife, it's space, it's water, it's...
Yeah, I don't know how much research is out there now on all of it.
There's a lot of research on the benefits of being out in nature, in larger landscapes
such as like woodlands and big parks and things like that.
But in terms of actual cultivated gardens, there's not that much, there's a lot of gardening
in the benefits of doing gardening but just not a lot on just passively sitting in a garden
or spending time in a garden.
Wow, and what happens, so four years is a long journey, you've done one, you've got
three to do, what happens at the end of it?
Where do you go at the end of it?
Do you see the end?
Hopefully, sometimes I don't see the end but there's always like at the end of the
tunnel.
I think, obviously, so I've got another study that's going to be running in May and then
after that...
Do you feel like for that face is out that one?
Because I'm joining now.
Oh, yes, you are, yes.
So at the first week of May, we're running a study.
It will be, yeah, from the second to the fifth of May and then I've also got a couple
of dates later in May for anybody who misses out the first week.
So basically I'm inviting participants to come to the garden at nine o'clock, which
is before public opening hours, which in my opinion is one of the best times to come
to Wesley.
And all it will involve is doing a short survey and then I'm going to get people to
sit in the garden for 20 minutes.
Some people might have an activity to do or might just be sitting and then come back
to the survey again and after that you can, your free to roam the gardens and spend the
day at Wesley and we can also offer a £5 gift voucher for each spending the gift shop
as well.
Wow, okay.
And you've...
How do people sign up for that?
Because I've signed up for an email.
I think who are anxious.
I can't remember how I actually received it, but I've signed up because I think it's quite
interesting.
Yes, so we've got lots of recruitment adverts out.
I think there's...
There is posters out, obviously.
I've also put a couple of posters on Facebook and Instagram.
I think there's one on Twitter as well and LinkedIn.
But basically if anybody's interested, they can just email me.
I think, are you able to provide?
Yeah, we'd like to email in the chat.
Yes, so just drop me an email.
Say that you're interested in participating and I can send all the information and the
details.
So how many people you're looking for?
What would be your...
I've got an name...
Disdigal.
I've got a name of about 90 people.
So far, almost halfway there.
So yeah.
Yeah, I'm sure.
Come on, let's get yourself down to our own truth and help us out and try and find the
benefits of being in the garden just from a mental health point.
I have studied it and I've looked at it and you're right.
There's a lot about gardening and I know that in Covid, 7 million people took up gardening
and there's lots of writing about mental health and gardening for sure.
And I know that RHS, but Wiesley were doing a big study, aren't they, on the sort of mental
health and well-being of gardening, which is not the same as being in a garden.
What we tend to do is be really, really...
We do lots and lots of gardening and we do very little sitting in the garden.
So it's to encourage people to, okay, do the gardening because that's very good for your
mental health and well-being and physical and everything and touching soil has massive
benefits.
We know that.
And then combining that with a moment of just sitting there and reflecting and how do we
encourage people to just sit there and do nothing, which is pretty hard.
It is, it is.
And I think that's where you really do get the most benefits when you just take the time
to sit back, notice what's in the garden, notice how it makes you feel and just be a
bit more mindful about the garden and your surroundings.
That's one thing actually the participants in the survey study that I've just finished.
A lot of the feedback I was getting, people were coming to hand the surveys back to me
and they're saying, oh, it was actually really nice doing the surveys because it made me
stop and think and reflect about how the garden was making me feel, which I don't normally
do.
And so that really got me started in this whole, how to just passively sitting in the garden
versus actual gardening influenced by being an outcome.
So yeah, I think there's definitely an element of mindfulness that needs to be had.
Oh, definitely.
Oh, I can't wait to finish your PhD.
Along the way, will you publish anything or along the way or what do you publish along
the way?
Yes.
So I'm planning to do my thesis, which is what will get me the PhD in the end by publication.
So every piece of research that I do, I intend to write up and have it published.
So I'm in the process at the moment of trying to get the systematic review that I did publish
and then, yeah, just each one I'll keep going with.
And how do people get that?
How can I get hold of your published research?
Yeah.
So there's a lot of research now is being published by what's called open access, which
means that the published research is accessible to the general population as opposed to having
to be in academia and access through licensing and things like that.
So hopefully it will be accessible just by having a quick search in Google Scholar.
Yeah, that's the place to look.
Google Scholar is a good place.
Yeah.
I shall be looking out for it and I'll be really interested in it.
I mean, I've spoken to lots of people.
I've obviously spoken to Alistair at the RHS about mental health and well-being gardening.
I've spoken to Marianne Boswell about regeneration and sort of gardening and the way that how
we create our gardens is really important.
She's a landscape designer.
And I also spoke to a psychologist in California who's done a lot of work on mental health
and well-being and gardening, but not a lot about.
I don't remember seeing anything about just taking time out and thinking, but I suppose
the two go together because you've got to have done the gardening to have garden that
you want to be able to sit in because otherwise you're going to be sitting there with and it's
actually going to be quite the opposite effect because you're going to be like, oh, all those
weeds.
Instead of saying all those weeds are encouraging butterflies, isn't that wonderful?
You've got to have more work to do.
And I think we tend to certainly as a flower farmer I go out and you can quite overwhelm
to go over at least jobs, everything you have to do on the farm that day.
It would be like, whoa, I haven't got time to sit and watch it.
So it's how you fit that in.
It's quite interesting.
It is, isn't it?
I think there's a fine balance because there is evidence in the literature that suggests
that sometimes gardening can become like a burden and a stress.
I think when you're too involved in it and you notice all the bits that need doing in
the garden when you're sitting there it can become quite stressful.
So yeah, I think it's a fine balance of allowing yourself to just sit back and relax and enjoy
the beauty of what's around you without worrying too much about trying to control it.
Well, I think that's the interesting thing, isn't it?
I haven't done a bit of research.
The reason why gardening is really good for people is because you're in the moment, number
one, and you can't think about tomorrow or yesterday.
It's just about now.
So it's about the now.
So I think that's why it has massive health and mental health benefits.
And also you cannot control it.
So we're all at different levels of trying to control our world.
Some of us are more controlling than others.
And I have two children who are very controlling and they want to control everything, but it
doesn't kind of work like that.
And I think in gardening you can control nothing.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And I think that's a big part of anxiety and stresses and worries in daily life.
It's because we're trying to control everything.
We're thinking ahead into the future and we're worrying about what's going to happen
and how we can control it.
And I think gardening is a good way to teach you that you can't control everything that
sometimes you do just have to step back and let it be.
Yeah, you can't control the weather.
You can't control what's going to grow and not grow.
You can't, in fact, this family literally you can't control nature.
You can't control the green fly on your roses.
You can't control.
In fact, I'm not really quite sure what you can control in gardening.
Not very much.
Yeah.
And I think that's a lesson to us all.
Maybe that's why it works.
I mean, sitting here looking at my bookcase and afterwards, full of gardening and mental
health and mental health and gardening and degeneration gardening.
And I think I need to.
Yeah.
I've also got a book called Rushing Women's Syndrome, which about women rushing all the
time and never stopping.
And the hilarious thing is I've never actually finished it because I'm rushing onto the next
thing.
So I think maybe that book needs to come back out again and we can read it again.
So what inspires you to do all this?
Obviously you've gone a massive career change.
Done a real U-turn.
Yeah.
Do you know, I've always had a love for nature and being outdoors.
I was very lucky when I was a kid, our garden back onto Woodlands.
So as a kid, I was just a without thing in the garden in the woods.
My mum used to tell me that when I was a little toddler, she would often find me five
o'clock in the morning outside in the garden in my wedding boots and tutu, just running
around in the mud.
So I've always just loved being outside.
I've always found kind of a solace in it as well when I'm stressed or anxious or just
worried about stuff going outside.
It just helps me.
And I think over the years as I've kind of developed my research interests, I've seen
the benefits therapeutically when I was working in, while I was doing my undergraduate and
my master's degree, I was working with children with complex neuro conditions.
And I really, really, it was there that I saw the value that nature had on these populations
and that I saw the therapeutic value that nature could have.
And then I got interested in green social prescribing, which is basically prescribing
nature to people.
And so that's where my research interests started to develop.
And then, yeah, I think just my love of nature and the value that I see that it can have
for people, that kind of inspires me to keep going with this.
So green prescribing, tell us about that and what that is.
I'm really up for green prescribing.
Oh, I know.
I mean, so Hippocrates, the ancient Greek physician and philosopher, there's a quote
by him that says, nature is the best physician.
And he was so ahead of his time because I really do think it is.
And I think where a lot of people are now suffering from chronic conditions and disabilities
and modern medicine hasn't really got a solution yet for it.
And we're now seeing the value of social connection and social prescribing, which is
basically prescribing people to social community groups to help their health and wellbeing.
A branch of that is green social prescribing, which is prescribing nature-based activities
and therapies to people and to help with their health and wellbeing.
Unfortunately, there's not a lot of research on the specifics of who, what, when, how that
GP is still confident enough in prescribing nature to people.
But the evidence is building and it's getting there.
I think more and more people are seeing the value of therapeutic water culture and nature-based
therapies.
And the interest is growing.
So hopefully maybe over the next decade or so we'll see it become more of a prescription.
But I think, I mean, if nature could be a pill, it would probably be the most prescribed
pill out there.
Yeah, it's trying to get to that, isn't it?
Because I've often thought about social prescribing and thought about green prescribing.
And I'd be quite happy to be involved in that in some way.
But like you say, it's really a simple thing.
And I'm not sure if I went along to my QPs and said, do you prescribe, you know, do you
do green prescribing?
I'm not even sure they know what it was.
I know.
And I think that's the thing.
It's about raising awareness and more, as I say, there is a growing interest in it,
but a lot of physicians, they're still not aware of the benefits that nature can have
for their patients.
I think the other thing is that social prescribing and green social prescribing, it relies a
lot on like community organizations and volunteer groups and things like that.
So yeah, it's about connecting with GPs and general practices.
And there's a lot of GP surgeries are now getting link workers, which are, they're basically
employed to link patients to community groups and nature-based groups.
So yeah, it's growing, but I think it will take time.
Yeah, I think it's getting those groups as active as well.
The other way around, both ways probably, is about getting those groups to link up to
their local GP surgery.
I run a number of online courses and lots of people in their run community gardens, you
know, they're running a social enterprise or they're involved with local communities
or schools or whatever.
So if those groups exist, how far they go to get green prescribing or what they can do
about it is quite challenging, I think.
And I think the same missing bit in the middle.
And I don't know what can be done here.
Maybe that's another reason.
Stay with us.
We'll be right back.
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It really is.
Yeah, it definitely needs more research into it.
And as I say, there needs to be more evidence for GPs to feel more confident in prescribing
nature to their patients.
Obviously, with pharmaceutical drugs, there's a world of evidence and literature that they
can evidence their prescribing practices on, but nature's not quite there yet.
But it's growing.
I'm confident it will get there.
I'm feeling a little bit more.
Sure, with things like anxiety, depression, ADHD, borderline personality disorder, all
of those, because my daughter's a psychotherapist, I don't know.
I kind of feel like.
Actually, her psychotherapy came out of her, she was anorexic and went through recovery.
She was at musical theater school and then we pulled around.
And she then retrained as a psychotherapist, interestingly, how life changes, doesn't it?
She's now working in recovery clinics and with adolescents.
And it's the same thing really.
So I believe that whole thing, that whole green prescribing could be amazing with that group
of adolescents that run from 16 to 24 who never really been out in nature and sat in
it or never really understood it or had a go at it or had the opportunity to do it would
be amazing.
Definitely.
And that's the thing, isn't it?
Because when you're out in nature, unless you're gardening and you're trying to control
it too much, nature, it doesn't demand anything from you.
It doesn't judge you, it's there and it can be adapted to so many different needs and
so many different abilities that it really is such a well all rounder, kind of pure,
not pure, but a definitely therapeutic.
100%.
At one stage in my daughter's recovery, she was in the Amy Winehouse because Amy Winehouse
has a sort of foundation and they have a house in Hackney and it has about 20 individual
flats and you have to be female between the ages of 18 and 25 I want to say.
And you can move in, but then they have a garden there.
They have a garden which they all got involved in and I got involved in and you can kind
of see the benefits of just going outside in the garden and they're all recovering,
so they're recovering from addictions, maybe alcohol, maybe drugs, maybe anorexia, bulimia,
anything.
It's an addiction response clinic.
So, and it's sort of well man, that kind of thing and people have never heard of it.
So there's a lot of education that's still got to be done around this whole, you know,
my daughter often says to me, oh mum it'd be great because when I inherit the house,
I can turn it into a clinic and it'd be great.
So it's already got all the farmers and fat farm on it and I could run all these sessions,
I went, oh, don't admit it.
I'm not ready for that one yet.
But that kind of outdoor space is what would be perfect for a recovery clinic.
It really would be.
I think as well, it's kind of, it's taking your mind off of things, isn't it?
Like you say, it's when you're gardening, it's in the now.
So you can't think of whatever it is that's on your mind, whether it's an addiction or
just general anxieties and worries, like you're focusing on the plant that you're tending
to and I think when you're nurturing plants as well and you're paying attention to the
life of the plant and you're growing it, it does give you a sense of like purpose and
meaning, doesn't it?
Enjoy, just improvise growing things and yeah, I think that definitely it helps yourself
confident in yourself as being.
It's an achievement, isn't it?
It's kind of like, you know, throw some direct sow seeds in the easiest sense into a patch
of really small soil in a balcony, on a window box, whatever it happens to be and watch it.
Exactly, yeah.
And, you know, nature will turn.
That seed does that absolutely want to grow and you have to do some really pretty awful
things for it not to want to grow.
So if you watched it and went every day, and I mean even now, you know, after 12 years
of flower farm and I'm going to get really excited for the bat today, my day is sprouting,
you know, and I kept looking over the last week and all the day you look a bit dry, I'm
not sure they're going to do anything or things are really not great.
And you go today and all of a sudden they prove that they're right and you're wrong.
Yeah, yeah.
It's to say me and my partner, we've gotten a lot of money and so we've obviously been
sewing all our seeds, getting ready, things to grow and for ages, the peppers aren't growing,
they're not going to germinate, they're not growing.
And then all of a sudden they just sprouted up and I was so excited.
I was like, oh, yes, they've come, finally.
But even now, it's just a tiny seed and yeah, because the amount of joy that it brings.
I mean, you see, you look what that seed becomes is amazing.
And then you think of a daily of tuber, which is the most ugly of seeing on this entire
planet.
It's dry, it's swiveled, it's dirty, it's most unattractive thing I've ever looked at.
And then all of a sudden it becomes the most attractive thing.
I know, it's amazing.
That's a lesson to us all from horrible things, come great things, maybe that.
Yeah, yeah.
So I think that's another thing about gardening and kind of spending time in gardens, but
passively noticing the changes that happen throughout the seasons, like things that are
ugly or just a tiny seed or an ugly bowl grows into something so beautiful, but then
it dies again.
But then it comes back again the next year.
And I think it helps us kind of attune to the cycles of life and gives us kind of a
bigger perspective on life.
A bigger hope I think.
Definitely, yeah.
Because I started taking a photograph of the same spot on the first of each month so that
you could reflect when it's really bleak.
And it's like, oh, look at this, it's all just that's dirty and there's nothing that comes
alive and it all looks really awful.
And then you take it in spring and everything's coming and then you're in the middle of summer
and it's well overgrown.
And then you get to the autumn, you've got all the beautiful leaves.
And then you get round again for winter because I'm in the UK, we're really blessed
before seasons.
But sometimes we look at it and go, oh, gosh, we're in winter again.
But winter can be quite beautiful.
So I've started to do that the first of each month and it's quite startling to see how
it develops.
Yeah.
Oh, I might do that.
That's a good idea.
First of each month.
Because sometimes you look at it and go, oh, because I sometimes I realise how far things
have come in a month.
So, yes.
But well, even day by day changes have, like, because obviously in the winter when it was
bleak and gloomy, we planted our tulip bulbs and we're waiting for them and then they've
started growing and they're flowering.
But over the last few weeks, just, from the changes in the morning to the afternoon and
it's grown so much.
And I was like, oh, it's so exciting.
Yeah, you almost need a time lapse on tulips because they go so quick.
Like, oh, there's a bud.
Oh, no, I'm a flower.
I know.
It's really quick.
I thought, I wonder if I sit and I stare at it all day if I'll actually see it.
See it opening up and growing.
But probably could do your mental health if you did that.
It would be, yeah.
Definitely.
Definitely good meditation.
So if you were on a desert island, who would you take with you?
I would probably take my partner.
I met him shortly after school, so I was 16.
I've been together almost 11 years now.
So, yeah, I think he's probably the only person that could tolerate me on a desert island.
And presumably, I ordered books and some research while you were there or, you know, things
you could actually get.
Oh, you could probably finish your PhD if you went.
I'm wondering, might need some Wi-Fi.
Maybe.
Pilot books, maybe, and a pilot magazine might be quite useful.
I'd be quite happy, yeah.
So any thoughts on future plans then when this all comes to an end?
Well, it'd be a ideal job.
My ideal job.
I would like to continue doing research, obviously.
But I think like your daughter, I want to open up a practice that has garden and nature-based
facilities that I can basically run a nature-based therapy practice for myself.
We want to hopefully wander in the future via small holding.
So I would like to make that into a therapy.
That'd be amazing.
Hopefully.
Whereabouts do you live, Bethany?
Near our Righteous Woods lead you?
No.
So I'm actually based in Horsham, but Sussex.
Yeah.
So it's just under an hour to get to a sleep, but I don't mind.
I don't mind the drive.
It's got a nice scenic drive, so it's not too bad.
I've actually interviewed somebody from down your way who runs a social enterprise on compost.
Okay.
Really interesting, really interesting.
It's another one about podcasts that I called Michael Kennard.
A really interesting person.
I could have spoken to all day.
And he talks about, he goes and collects food waste from people around.
And then all around Brighton, I think, is at the moment.
And he goes and collects food waste and puts it in one area.
And then makes compost through special decompos machines for food.
And then the people who had their food can have some compost back and then he sells the rest of the compost.
And then he's involved with Lewis football club when he has a market sort of gardener, community gardeners part of the football club.
Because what he's trying to do is introduce footballers.
We're not traditionally interested in gardening.
Back to a football.
To the fact they can garden.
And the other way around, gardener is introducing to football.
Because you wouldn't expect the two to go together at all.
So he's, have a listen to the podcast.
He's really interesting.
He's also sort of regeneration and how we make compost environmentally.
You know, he's, you know, he was really, really quite inspirational.
I think there's lots of people around the inspire.
Yeah, definitely.
There is lots of people, lots of people to look up to.
Yeah, definitely, definitely.
So people can get involved in this study, we'll put it in the show notes.
Keep me involved when you've published any research that would be really great because you dropped me an email and I can let people know where it is.
That would be really fabulous.
But I want to wish you all the best with your research and it is an absolutely missing gap.
It's amazing that you've managed to find this and do a PhD in it.
And yeah, it's not just about gardening.
It's about being in the garden.
Yeah, that's it.
I think you can have some strap line about that.
Yeah, yeah.
Enjoy your garden after a hard day's gardening.
It's taking a message.
Yeah.
Sit and relax and just take the time to enjoy it.
Yeah.
Because I don't want you to stick with it.
I'll be on another weed, another plant.
Well, I haven't done this and I haven't done that.
And that's not the point at all.
So that's brilliant.
No, just enjoy it.
Just notice all the beauty around it.
Yeah.
Brilliant.
Lovely.
Thank you for coming over today.
I really appreciate it.
And anybody who wants to get involved, it'll be in the show notes.
And I want to thank you for taking the time out of this today.
Lovely.
Thank you for having me.
Thank you.
I look forward to next week's episode.
Please don't forget to subscribe and rate and review on your podcast app.
We do have some wonderful free resources on our website at thecutflowcollective.co.uk
We also have two free Facebook communities, which we'd love you to join.
For farmers or those who want to be from our farmers, we have cut flower farming, growth
and profit in your business.
And our other free Facebook group is Learn with the Cutflower Fletive for those starting
out on their flower journey.
All of the links are below.
I look forward to getting to know you all.
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