248. Higher Contribution for Large-Scale Change with Dr. Rajiv Shah (Part 1)

Hello everyone, I'm Greg McEwan and I'm here with you on this journey to learn. Have you ever wanted to make a higher contribution? A big impact in the world, but felt perhaps a little hopeless about it all. Perhaps you remember that just a few weeks ago, I compared two great fortunes in America and how one of those fortunes was depleted within two or three generations. In episode 221, a tale of two billionaires, I shared the two rather shocking stories of the Vanderbiltz and the Rockefellers. And how one the Vanderbiltz fortune was depleted almost to nothing within just a couple of generations, whereas in the Rockefellers built a foundation that lasts to this day. Well, that begs the question, what is the Rockefeller Foundation doing? And why does that matter for you and for me anyway? In today's episode, which is part one of a two-part interview, we're welcoming Dr. Rajiv Shah, who is the president of the Rockefeller Foundation. This is a global institution that has a mission to promote the well-being of humanity around the world. But even before that, a rather young-looking Dr. Shah was also the USAID administrator, where he was responsible for leading and reshaping the 20 billion-dollar agency that has operations in 70 countries around the world to develop even stronger results. Dr. Shah is also the author of a new book, Big Betts How Large Scale Change Really Happens. By the end of this episode, you will better understand the journey that Rajiv went on in order to be able to make this higher contribution. What were some of the trade-offs that he made along the way? Where did he have to rethink his path? Some of the steps in his journey have been political appointments, and in this podcast, I am, and this is politically independent. But whatever your political persuasion, each of us can still learn from people who are committed to trying to make a difference in the world as Dr. Shah clearly is. Let's get to it. As we're coming here to the end of the year, it's a really good time to be able to pull out effortless, to pull out essentialism, to realign yourself with these principles, to be able to help you find your highest point of contribution, both personally and professionally. Dr. Shah, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. It's great to be with you. Can we just go back way, way back to the beginning? Like, can you just tell me about your grandparents? Sure. Well, my parents are immigrants from India, so their parents lived in different parts of India. My mother's side of the family was actually quite successful. They were in the cotton milling business. My father's parents, my father's dad was an accountant, my grandfather. And one of the stories I write about in the book, Big Betts, is his big bet was he was such a passionate believer in America, even though he'd never once left India. That he emptied his retirement account to buy a one-way plane ticket from my dad to come to the US as an immigrant with no resources, but with an educational scholarship. And that's how my family came here in the late 1960s. I thought that was such an extraordinary point of your story that someone could believe in that way from such a distance. Did you know your grandparents well? You know, I did because they came to visit and when I was young, they would come to visit and stay with us for extended periods of time. So I got to know them through those visits and then my grandmother, when my grandfather passed away on my dad's side, actually lived with us for many years until she passed. So I did get to know them well and I got to appreciate how extraordinarily different being, you know, in America, in a middle class or a middle class family was than the world they had for themselves back home. When did you know the story that you just described to us? Was that something you grew up knowing? My grandfather believed so much in this experiment called America that he launched this whole family opportunity. Yeah, that was something I grew up knowing because what happened was then my parents brought their brothers and their sisters over all, again, on educational scholarships, but in our very kind of small and close knit immigrant community, that was a pretty common story. In fact, it was so common that it never occurred to me anybody felt any differently about America until I was older. You know, everybody just thought, this is the one place in the world. If you come here, you work hard, you play by the rules, your kids get a better shot at life than you did. And that was it. That's all I was ever taught until I was old enough to, you know, open my eyes and learn that people have had very different experiences. Yeah, to some of that brought a complexity in the world. Your parents settled in Ann Arbor. They did. Were you born in Ann Arbor? I thankfully was, girl, blue. And tell me a little of those first few years of your, like your first memory in Ann Arbor was what? Well, you know, I don't actually, well, my first memory, you know, who knows what's memory and what stories. Yeah, that's right. You come memory at that age. But my mother ran the Montessori School, the early childhood education program for the University of Michigan. And that was a very big deal because she was an Indian woman who, you know, was just a few years into being in this country and created that and was, you know, that was a pretty important part of our childhood. She always had a Montessori School as I was growing up. And then my dad worked at Ford Motor Company. And so we were, you know, we were all in around in the Detroit area. You grew up around the auto industry. You just think that's the whole world. So I, for many years, I just expected I would be an engineer in an auto company or even more fancifully. I thought I'd have one of my own. And so that's what we dreamed about in that setting. Yeah, but that's still really telling that you were in an environment where a dream like that seemed plausible. Oh, yeah. Tell me more. Like for sure, that's exactly how it was. Tell me more. Yeah, because, you know, so I grew up and so back then, the public schools around Detroit actually offered, not even offered. But they were required that you took pre-engineering, drafting and automotive design. These were classes you took as a middle school kid with teachers and pro tractors and the like. And so I do make reference to it in the book, but it was without question, sort of the path that, and it's what made so many things interesting. Like science was interesting because you could take your Pinewood Derby race car and test it in a wind tunnel and try to win a race. It's like it was very applied science and back in that timeframe because that industry was such a big part of our lives and a big part of the American story. Was it then more the effect of the culture of the school or more this Montessori type parenting that you would most attribute that sense of possibility to? Well, I probably all of the above and to some extent just being in a family where we were just, you know, we were incredibly aware of the sacrifices our parents and grandparents made to come to this country. Actually, my first true honest memory, yes, close my eyes and see the picture, was I was a little bit older, but my grandfather came to the United States on a visit to me with my parents and to stay with us. And my dad, who was kind of a pretty frugal person, still is nearly dad, sorry about that. But he had his dad, he had his dad pay for his own plane ticket to come visit because back then if you paid in rupees, the Indian currency, it was a little cheaper than if you paid in dollars. And then it was always his intention to pay my dad back, my grandfather back. So when my grandfather arrived, he got off the plane and, you know, you could go all the way up to the gate back then, right? And so he gets off the plane and he and my grandmother and they're just, he's just like ashen in tears and he was so worried that, oh my gosh, my son went to America and didn't have enough money to buy my plane ticket, he must be in trouble, I need to go help him. And then when he arrived and the two of them spoke, they just gave each other a hug and they both started crying because they realized, no, my dad was just saving somebody on the ticket, but actually he was fine and everything was okay. So we always deeply understood the sacrifice of an immigrant family to be in a different place. And that coupled with, you know, given great opportunities in school and in other settings, I think made us all pretty focused. My sister is a surgeon on the Upper East Side in New York and so, you know, she's the same sort of story. What kind of a student were you? I was pretty good. I thought I was a better student than I was in retrospect. Why? What does that mean? Oh, it just means we were digging through old report cards and I was realizing my recollection of those scores were a little bit higher than what they had. Interesting. So you recalled, you recalled yourself as what? How did you remember it? Oh, straight A kid. But when you read the reports, you found somewhere between A's and B's. That's interesting because it means that you had, it means that I know it's, I don't want to make a huge thing of it, but it means that you had a perception of yourself as excellent. You know, like, that's who I am. Even if some of the data, I mean, it's A's and B's, it's not like something shocking, but somehow you have garnered an essence of, I am competent, I can learn, I am intelligent. You know, I've always performed at a very high level. That's like self-identity you're describing there. Yeah, there's one I write about in the book, one particular activity when I was young called policy debate. It's something that's available throughout the country and you're given a topic and you have two person teams and you travel around and it's sort of structured debate and argumentation. And I fell in love with that activity. That was where I thrived. One championships did really well and developed a sense of confidence, you know, from that engagement. So that was a pretty big part of my childhood. What was interesting was one moment in the history of Detroit and myself is when I was a junior, so in high school, Nelson Mandela was released from prison. And you know, in Detroit, we didn't get, we didn't get like the biggest visitors, right? We got, it was wonderful place, but it was in New York or LA or something. Well, when Mandela was released, he came to the United States and he came to Detroit and he did an event on the assembly line at the River Rouge Auto plant and he spoke to auto workers. He went to Tiger Stadium, which was where our baseball team played and did a huge event. Stevie Wonder opened for him. It was very Motown and he closed his amazing speech, which I was watching on television and just transfixed by his multi-day visit. He closed his speech by saying, you know, to the people of Detroit, I want to tell you from the people of South Africa that we admire you, we respect you, but above all, we love you. And I just thought how amazing that someone who's been imprisoned for decades comes to Detroit, pretty gritty city and talks in front of 50,000 people about love and social justice and right and wrong. And I realized in that moment that I wanted to do something with my life of service knowing full well. I was never going to be, you know, a saint like Nelson Mandela, but I was also not really sure how to go about being involved in giving back and in social justice work. And so I, you know, I've spent the next many years sort of trying to find my way. It seems to me that without the kind of suffering of a Mandela, you can't become a Mandela, you know, it's just not available. In a sense, thank goodness, it's not available to most people. So a certain kind of greatness has to be thrust upon you with a certain amount of suffering. It seems to me now. Now a question I have about that moment, you describing it as defining, is that in hindsight, it was defining, or was it a very present moment in that moment, literally in that moment, something awakened in you? I think in hindsight, yeah, I think in hindsight, because I, when I'm saying, okay, I kind of knew I still went to med school. I knew I was going to go to professional work, either as an engineer or a doctor. That was sort of what we did. That is the Indian way. Exactly. If you can, that's what you do. And so, but I think that sort of lit up in me a spark to do something different. And, but I didn't know what that different was. And I didn't know how to take, you know, take that and do something with it. It just created, you know, like a sense of aspiration and hope. And it maybe in the future led to more decision making that I, at least for me in the moment was relatively courageous. No one else would look back and consider it that, but, but no, not right away. This episode is sponsored by Shopify, selling a little or a lot. Shopify helps you do your thing, however you are judging. Shopify is the global commerce platform that helps you sell at every stage of your business. 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And I think that's a way to think about Shopify because no matter how big you want to grow, Shopify gives you everything you need to take control and take your business to the next level. Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at shopify.com slash Greg all lowercase go to shopify.com slash Greg now to grow your business no matter what stage you're in shopify.com slash Greg. This episode is sponsored by the millionaire university podcast. I've spent almost my entire life as an entrepreneur and it's hard to summarize exactly what that experience is like if you're new to it, especially if you haven't done it before. It takes courage, it takes organization discipline for sure to say no for example to some good ideas in order to say yes to just one or two great ones is an ever present trade off and challenge as an entrepreneur. And that's true as well for trying to work out what resources to tap into. 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You're not paying to listen to the episode you can listen as you're doing anything else cleaning up in the kitchen going for a walk driving along new episodes are dropping weekly and you can find the millionaire university on YouTube Apple Spotify or of course wherever you get your podcasts. So I want to go back for a moment to these policy debates that you did because that was over a period of time and I can easily see that as you're starting to do well in them as you are in the best moments speaking in a way that is spell binding for the audience you experience something really rare for a teenager. To have a whole audience paying attention to in fact doing it in a way that you're winning these debates that there is something about that early experience that I imagine was defining in the moment am I reading that wrong. Yeah on the debates side just you know I think so many kids who end up building enough confidence to do something that they're really proud of in their lives have something in their childhood they gave them a lot of confidence and for me that it was it that was it and I write about my high school coach because he was the individual who instilled a work ethic in me to do it I write about my teammates because it was a team activity and it's the whole picture right it's the hard work. It's doing all the research it's learning a ton of stuff about something you might never have otherwise known about and then it's performing like even like any sport it's not just the performing it's all the work that goes into it and so that was my defining childhood experience that gave me confidence. But you still left that planning to be doctor yeah so take us on that next part of your journey so you're finishing high school you go to university where. So I went to the University of Michigan not far had you traveled through your life at this point I mean had you gone out of the country yeah we had gone primarily to India actually on some trips when I was young and then across across the US to different places but you know not a lot of travel but enough and and I was fortunate for it but Michigan you know I just grew up loving it wanted to go didn't really know that you know didn't consider a whole lot of options and was thrilled to be. And I loved it and at Michigan I sort of started to learn more in a disciplined way about policy politics economics inequality became more active in efforts to address hunger and inequality in particular and that led to a course of study primarily in economics and then a year at the London School of Economics and so when I came back from all of that at that point I was pretty intent that I wanted to do something in policy and public service. But you know it's hard to shake the doctor thing when you're an Indian American kid yeah so I just thought I would do it all so I went to med school at Penn I went to the business school there to to get a PhD in health economics I ended up with the masters and it wasn't until I took my final set of board exams that my then girlfriend now wife you know and I got in my car and drove 14 hours and joined Al Gore's presidential campaign as a volunteer in Nashville Tennessee. And that was really the main moment that I acted upon my sort of stated desire to do that. That's the moment that you took action down a certain path but at some point prior to that you had to decide you wanted me you called it public service which it is but it's a political ambition of course there's a multitude of motivations we all have for anything that we're doing. But parents of it is political ambition when was when did that happen is it at LSE or must have been before them because you only studied LSE because you say I actually really want to understand this side of the world. What was the ambition at that point I didn't actually know all the answers to those questions what I knew was that I wanted to understand especially why some countries and communities were like America with a lot of development and a ton of wealth and seemingly very minor levels of real people suffering with want and poverty and why others were like India where you know 50-60% of population lives and what we would have called poverty back in that time. Right have enough to eat where my grandmother would tell the story of skipping meals all the time so that her kids could eat even though her husband wasn't accountant at a bank like you know like how does that happen. And so and then trips back to India and my course of study kind of really just intensified the desire to want to both know why and you know the sort of huge ambition to want to do something really dramatic to solve that problem. Right you're a kid you dream about solving big problems and so so yeah LSE was a place where I could study those topics from some of the best professors in development and development economics that was definitely true and get exposure to leaders around the world political leaders around the world that would come there to talk and meet with students. And so by the time I got back I knew I wanted to do something but you know I was on a path so I went to med school and in med school I didn't I love the science part of it and the cadaver lab in particular was my favorite part. That that part sounds awful to me. Oh that's so interesting. I understand this and doctors that I've spoken to really seem to be drawn to that. But frankly it was one professor who sort of said Roger look this your dream is to give this a shot you should try it. And I applied twice to the Gore campaign and got rejected and then actually Gore's campaign was floundering it was struggling and he actually picked it up and moved it from Washington DC to Nashville Tennessee. And in the process he lost maybe half of his staff and that someone said hey you should try a third time so I tried again and they finally said okay we won't pay you but if you come we'll give you housing. So so at the end of that 14 hour drive that day we ended up in Al Gore's best friends mom's pool house that's where I lived for the next six months I sort of learned about what an American presidential campaign was like. And what was it like? Well first it was miserable I was this I was like much older than all the other volunteers who were low school kids. Wow so how many were high school kids that you were with first as you like. So probably seven or eight seven or eight kind of high school kids myself as the sort of youngish person as a volunteer and then sort of older older individuals who bring food to the campaign office for everybody else. You know because there's a difference between volunteers and staff so that there are plenty of people my age who are staff in real jobs but the volunteers were kind of off to the side. And then over time I got a job and and was on the policy and research team and then met all these amazing people some of whom most of whom have gone on to be both great friends and extraordinary people they've done amazing things and like this in government. Oh Jason Furman who ran our council of economic advisors and Philippe Reinas who went on to be a strategic communications leader and democratic politics and Jeff Nussbaum a renowned author who is a great speech writer to multiple presidents and Eglis goes on and on of people who contributed in so many different ways. But at the time we're all just kids working on this you know on the research and policy team of the Gore campaign. So what would like a day in the life of you know have looked like for you. Back on the campaign. Oh it was pretty monotonous living. We would go to the office in the morning sit at our desk do what we were told a lot of research on issues like health care and foreign policy a lot of responding to back doing the research so that others could respond to reporter inquiries about things we did debate briefs to prepare the vice president. Gore for his debates at that time against Bill Bradley who was his into the primary and then lead general campaign. And then as we kind of matured into those roles then we would brief reporters and we would start being more forward facing and crafting policy and making arguments in support of those policies but it was definitely a climb up that ladder. I'm wondering how it's different then versus now that would have been pre social media. I mean it was certainly the age of 24 cable news it's like the CNN it's in its heyday that kind of phase you know how do you see it different then versus now just any reflections on that. Yeah I think now it's also instantaneous you know and frankly now there's so much misinformation out there in different channels that our primary job which was you know ascertaining what was true and what was not. Almost seems like it must be very different today when so much of what goes around and is learned is simply not true and so and people might not even care that a candidate says it's not true. So anyway we did it we I assume it's quite different and much faster paced but the basic tenets of frankly that's about the work the thing you really get out of a campaign experience like that is. The feeling of what it's like to be on a presidential campaign to be forced to articulate what that side believes is right for the country and why and frankly the friendships you make along the way whether you recognize it at the time or not and. One of the reasons I love writing the book was I realize myself as I went through different chapters in my future when I serve in the Obama administration and now run the rock foundation there's so many times when I lean on. The camaraderie and the intellect and the friendship and partnership of the five to ten folks that were in that we call that the cage in that cage in national so those high school students have gone with you. You know yeah and the staff that we're in the stuff yeah okay so while you're there are you having you have to have been thinking. What I want to do this one day you have to be I can't see I can't see anybody doing that without at least thinking about that and maybe that's sort of why someone's doing it at some level even if they don't want to say so what are your thoughts about this at that time. Yeah you know I was learning it all in real time and loving it and then the fun in my mind was when we win I'm gonna get a job in the white house and there was a show back then called the west wing yeah you made it all very glamorous and everything you said was pithy and fun and that was the vision of success and then of course we didn't quite win that race. What is that moment like so you're through all of the recounts in Florida the back and forth the will it happen won't it happen all the way to vice president go actually saying okay I'm calling it you know and the supreme court stepping into like all of that you're there through all of that. I was and frankly I was at the the naval observatory which is the vice president's residence the night he took his limousine to the white house to deliver his concession speech in December of that year many weeks after the election and that concession speech actually was one of the most special moments in American political history and I think that's true and really there's so much in there that's so rich including his love of country. And his commitment to honor the ideals of the country over himself but also this phrase that he quoted his father that I actually refer to a lot which is that defeat as well as victory can shake the soul and let it's glory out I thought that was beautifully for just comment that that has gone on to help me at least through moments that have felt you know like to feed yeah well the inherent ups and downs every success story there's no exception to that there's nobody it just appears that way to people sometimes or the rise and rise of whoever or whatever business or whatever band it's like yeah that's just the part you see yeah you just don't see all the misery all the uncertainties all the failure moments before it and I completely agree with you do you have any in front row observations of that moment before he gets in the limousine goes to the white house that you remember yeah you know I just remember the sense of purpose it was like once he had made that judgment in his mind he I mean we were all there was actually a tent in the yard and and there was a concert going on and it was part of the thank you to some of the folks who had been on the campaign which was why we were all there and and so he left we all watched him deliver this thing short speech that changed our country came back and then we had a party for the next three hours and it included like Stevie Wonder performed and I remember John Bon Jovi was in the like in the crudite line I just a real it's a real evening yeah because it's celebration in the midst of this defeat this or all this emotion part of history living history no question and what a rare unusual moment to be a part of you don't have a job in the white house I mean that has got to have been pretty rough moment you've got a lot of good things behind you already it's not like you have no options but the difference between the west wing vision you know four to eight years of you know a whole amazing experience that that that that just was right there I mean of course we have often thought about it from our goals points of view but I mean you know all of the stuff you're there what did you do next how did you deal with your own disappointment with that and to turn it into a success well you know I went back to Philadelphia where I was still finishing up some coursework at Penn and in grad school and started looking for a job and tried a bunch of things some of which didn't work some of which you know we're fun to do but not really a career like I worked out in New York mayoral campaign next so still want still in politics yes still trying to find a path in that space trying to find the start to hang to hang with you know I'll go you was supposed to do it for me you know I was you didn't get me there so you're trying other things and then well and then one day a friend from the campaign called and said you know Bill and Melinda Gates started this foundation and they're looking for someone with this kind of a background and who's interested in economics but also knows about health and medicine and you do want to go meet with them and so I said sure absolutely and the next thing you know I was working at the Bill Melinda Gates foundation in its earliest days who was it that reached out to I don't you don't have to say the name what was the role well he was the former chief of staff of the campaign itself and then he was tasked by Bill Melinda's name is David Lane and he's great friend and he was tasked by them to help build out a small team in Washington that could help think through policy and finance types of issues related to our work it is let's say an extraordinarily good fit for you it was from I mean certainly in retrospect but I loved it from the get go you know it was you didn't recognize it necessarily as this sort of godsend moment when it started no because I didn't you know it was a philanthropy and I didn't know what that meant I really did and I didn't also think you could I was a young person coming out of a good school and looking for a career I didn't think that was a career and this was literally not that's what happens when people make a lot of money and then give it away later in life I mean that is kind of true but but the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation you know for those not really familiar with it I mean it's so vastly funded it's not like it's not really like other philanthropies and of course that's true with Rockefeller Foundation too it's an unusual type of opportunity so you really didn't understand or maybe appreciate the full scope of what this would mean or how it would introduce you to people maybe it was so young in its development that that that wasn't obvious at that time but you enjoyed it from the first moment how long did you end up staying there I was there eight years and and I'll tell you I enjoyed it and I write in the book about some of the experiences but part of it was the book is called big bets because it's about setting bold ambitions for helping to change the world at scale and I really learned that mindset from the team including Bill and Melinda but from the team that that had been assembled there that was trying to ask ask all of us how could we possibly immunize every child on the planet in an effort to save as many lives as possible yeah so so that was interesting the way you said that you said from the people on the team also from Bill and Melinda why the distinction oh just the team I mean by the time I joined the team was already pretty exceptional a woman named Sylvia Matthews who's now known as Sylvia Burwell who is the Health and Human Services Secretary for President Obama was a leader at the foundation already David Lane I mentioned had joined Paddy Stone Cypher a seasoned executive from Microsoft was the CEO Bill's father Bill senior yeah at the tone about you know we have these resources but boy are we going to be good listeners and really humble as we listen because we know nothing compared to a teacher who's taught second grade for you know 20 years if we're going to try to help improve American education and we don't know as much as those experts out there that have worked on health in Africa and Asia if we're going to try to make a difference there he said the cultural tone and then Bill and Melinda were very involved you know and I write about Bill's the first lesson from Bill I call ask a simple question because he would gather us in the conference room and just hammer away it how much does it cost immunize a single child because if you didn't have the answer to that you couldn't understand what it would cost to vaccinate all 104 million kids that were born every year at that time and do that and over and over again and you couldn't begin to solve the problem if you didn't understand its scale and the needs well that's a wrap for part one of this interview with Dr. Shah I think it's a fascinating story to just look at the journey that he went on to be able to see which trade-offs he made and I put this to you as you're coming to the end of this episode what is something that stood out to you what is something that you can do differently because of this conversation and who is somebody that you can share this with so that the conversation continues now that the podcast has come to an end thank you really thank you for listening and I'll see you next time this episode is brought to you by the Yap Media Podcast Network I'm Holla Taha CEO of the award-winning digital media empire Yap Media and host of Yap Young & Profiting Podcast a number one entrepreneurship and self-improvement podcast where you can listen learn and profit on Young & Profiting Podcast I interview the brightest minds in the world and I turn their wisdom into actionable advice that you can use in your daily life each week we dive into a new topic like the art of side hustles how to level up your influence and persuasion and goal setting I interview a list guests on Young & 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