Begley, Nance, and Wasch

And now the low welcome to the low post podcast live from an undisclosed location Ian Bagley from SNY Ian I did a segment with Kevin Pelton the other day about the most uh interesting under the radar offseason teams or teams that we just hadn't talked about it all and I was kind of hoping he would pick the nicks and he didn't pick the nicks he picked the calves and I picked the bucks but I wanted to save the nicks in reserve because I feel like they they were very quiet um they traded Obi-Toppin to the Pacers which we'll talk about uh leaving a whole it backed up power forward and cutting bait on a heralded CAA draft prospect sending him to an eastern conference rival a real nicks rival actually they have yet to really um get all that serious or deep into extension talks with the manual quickly I don't think that could come um Josh Hart opted in and pointedly has not signed his contract extension yet um that I assume will be coming and they signed on to Diven Chenzo so by nicks standards it's been kind of like a little bit quiet a lot of continuity um we'll see where Josh Hart's contract comes in but it'll be a palatable number for sure for a guy who just lit the lit the city on fire when he came Diven Chenzo's deal is a nice deal I've always been a fan of his game and he kind of put it all together with the warriors um it seems like uh it's going to be continuity slow build keep our chips uh all our trade chips intact to to find another star if and when um that that that becomes available and and the nicks fan could look at that and be like uh in another universe the nicks fan could look at all that and say man we're really kind of just spin in our wheels but I think last season was so good and winning a playoff series was massive for them for buying time I think for this sort of vision because if they had lost like they had to Atlanta two years ago it would have been like oh man here we are again with this like fools gold regular season the combination of a legit semi dominant playoff series win and Brunson in the regular season and then even more so in the playoff cementing himself as a legit all star level player I think has bought this team all sorts of time with the fans within the league um that doesn't mean they're done but I just kind of wanted to talk about them because they've been quiet by nicks standards in the summer right yeah I would agree with you in terms of this past season buying Leon Rose in his group sometime I think you know coming into this past year I don't think they had the the gift of time I think they had to show something tangible this past season based on how the prior year went and based on what they had to do to create the cap space to get jail in Brunson so this thing had to work in my mind and it did we all saw how it played out 47 wins and nicks are passing all rational expectations for this team last year and then the playoff series win as you mentioned so certainly I think they've bought themselves some time I think Zach you take let's say the nicks out of the equation just say this is team x coming off of a 47 win season winning a playoff series after where they'd been the past decade plus and you would say oh of course you know stay the course be patient maybe a move or two on the margins and then wait for that big move and I think you know the nicks it's different because of the decade two decades two plus decades of ineptitude of head scratching moves of on and off the court dramas of you know this franchise kind of shooting itself in the foot again and again I think there are fans who see this all season as a disappointment because they wanted to see this group take a big swing they felt like this was the time to go ahead and make a big move take a step forward but again I think if you take the recent history maybe out of it and also the nicks out of the equation you look at this just as team x it makes all the sense in the world for them to do what they did this all season and it was fitting that they upended Donovan Mitchell's calves in the first round because one of the things that Brunson and look Brunson is undersized he's never going to be a plus defender he's a good passer creator but not a great one because he likes to play with the ball and do his ISO scoring but he's really effing good at that stuff and I think one of the things that his emergence as yeah he's probably not as good as Donovan Mitchell but he's not he if he plays like he did last season and carries that playoff performances over he's not that that far away to the point that okay we now reorient if we even had to reorient our pursuit of star x all the way to big wings and bigs like we're we can cobble together a two guard spot between grimes and bear it and bear its playoff performance I think maybe has kind of been forgotten because it seems like ages ago now that the nicks lost in the second round but after those first two games against Cleveland RJ Barrett played well in the playoffs and I thought that was another kind of buying time thing okay like maybe Julius Randall's kind of not over the playoff thing we'll talk about that but RJ Barrett showed out and I think they they can reorient that pursuit toward those positions completely but I don't think they have to rush it like if you look at the Eastian like Milwaukee's Milwaukee Boston changes this team around but they're Boston given the volatility in Philadelphia and the volatility in Miami held up because of these two star guards that are unhappy and want out depending on on a whole all that falls like Miami's already lost two starters off its playoff team there's like a little void like for the kind of on paper number three spot in the East between depending on what those teams do Cleveland and New York are right there like there if this if this stuff breaks right for them they could be in a good position in a regular season I can easily see that Zach what would you say though if James Harden returned to Philly and the heat eventually got Damien Lillard would you still put the nicks as currently constituted in that real estate uh no not and not for playoff equity um you know we know what Dam is and and the heat will have to sacrifice some level of depth if they are able to pull off the transaction and they've already sacrificed mean like two starters from their playoff team and Philly I guess the wild card for that will be we've seen what happens when James Harden doesn't want to be in a situation uh he has dogged it multiple times is he actually going to do that on an expiring contract with his status in the league as a no-brainer max star having clearly taken a hit to the point that he's not a no-brainer max star and he can't do whatever he wants and know that the four-year max deal is on the other side I don't look I mean I saw Ramona said this on TV yesterday I've heard the same thing like if you talk to people around him he's not backing down uh he wants out of Philadelphia I don't know that that's act like when push comes to shove in its September and he's staring down the barrel of a lost season and maybe some lost money you know it's easy to posture now it's harder to posture it's September but yeah I but even if I don't think the nicks are in that real estate like I think they're in very good real estate yeah and should should could should whatever be a top six team that is one hot playoff series one you know good matchup away from again being in the second round and having a puncture chance but this is a team that's played Boston extraordinarily well in the regular season just as a for instance right and I think you talk about the patient Zach and obviously Damien Willard is there for the taking if your New York and you you think you can put together the best package uh maybe you're a little worried because he wants to go to Miami would he be happy in New York but regardless you could put together a strong package for Damien Willard you could put together a strong package for James Hardin and I was told this recently on his last week that the nicks had kind of a line that they weren't interested in crossing and I think maybe to a degree that's impacted the trade market for both Portland and Philly because if the nicks get in there I think the price automatically gets raised but also at Carl Anthony Towns I mean they were talks between the timber wolves and other teams before the draft and Towns his name came up I don't know how aggressive the timber wolves were with towns if at all but the nicks obviously they could have gone there as well and they clearly have decided not to go there at this point so they've shown restraint uh in the trade market I think if OGN and OB becomes available again that's a name that they would circle back on we both know how interested they were at the trade deadline but by and large yes they have they have operated cautiously and that's been a theme really of Leon Rose's regime and approach here the the cautious incremental build at some point we know they have to take that big swing but I don't see where they had missed an opportunity yet this offseason well let's talk about um some of those names harden from what I had heard you said draw a line I heard the line was like um not anywhere near what the Philadelphia 76ers would actually do given Daryl Morrie's history of like what he's gonna want in trades um and and beyond that like I think the nicks look at forney ace contract as not a throw in but in this hard cap ish fiscal care environment as a really valuable potential expiring contract with the 19 million dollar club option at the end of it um it's not a throw into them so I don't I'd never sense real I mean if the hard and price got low enough it's sort of like hey why not let's have some fun and see get a million lefties who like to dribble the ball all the time um Dame I just keep going back to the brunson thing like brunson is what seven years younger and not as good now but he had a legit third team all NBA case this year like it was it was a close call and that means he was one of the six to ten to twelve whatever best guards in the NBA I just personally don't see a point in throwing a whole bunch of my draft equity to get another point guard are they actually are they actually in this or are they just kind of like rubber necking and just sort of seeing what's going on I haven't heard that they're in it in a significant way at all I think probably all twenty eight teams outside of Portland and Miami have been at least on the periphery in terms of a third or fourth team in this potential Damien Lillard deal so I'm sure the nicks have poked around on that but in regards to a real offer on Damien Lillard or really being in that conversation I have not heard that they are and I think I've heard some of the thoughts that you just mentioned about the fit with jalen brunson from some people in the organization and so I just leave me to believe that they won't be there in a significant way on Lillard and I think you hit it Zach earlier when you said because of what jalen brunson did last year you kind of reorient everything you orient building around him or with him obviously and highly in your thought process so you're looking at wings and you're looking at biggs I would be surprised if they brought in a top-player via trade in the back court I mean we'll see what happens with jalen brown and Boston I have been told over and over that he will sign some version of the super max soon ish it has not been signed yet but I expect it to be still despite this ongoing delay every day I get a little more like hmm it's interesting that's the name that's a Lillard thing with the delay or do you think it's unrelated to Lillard look we're still in like mid july so there's all sorts of whispers and posturing and rumor mongering and all that from everything I've heard it's a bells and whistles on the super max thing like player options trade kickers all that kind of stuff but I have said over and over like I don't love the jalen brown for Damien Lillard like one for one deal like for either team I don't I don't really love it that much but um so that's just my opinion cat I find myself torn on cat Ian I can't quite quit cat I can't quite quit cat that's a tongue twister um you and Tim Connelly both I guess well I'm not sure really how serious Minnesota was if at all um but my reporting is probably different from yours we all hear different things like I don't really know what happened with cat um around the draft you know we all can just look at the cap sheet and look at how many big men they have and look at their level of team success last year and understand that like this is really their only way out of the go bear trade is trading cat we've been saying that since the like five minutes after the go bear trade happened right I can't I can't quit him because of the offensive skill set is just so prodigious he did finish the playoffs in fairly strong form in Minnesota's last three games after after some stincos in the first two games some very cat like stincos where it's like did he have the ball why didn't he have the ball why did he foul out again why is he always fouling out maybe he turned like a little bit of a playoff corner I also do feel like he's gonna be if and when he gets traded potential change of scenery get the Minnesota baggage you know off his back um get him with a guard who maybe is a better fit for him I think there's some change of scenery potential on him I on the other hand every time he opens his mouth on a podcast I'm like oh my god can you just can you just can you start denying the appearances just don't go on the podcasts um and and the playoff track record is what it is the defense is what it is and I said to you earlier on a podcast a few months ago like I'm not sure he's the guy would throw all my chips in for and now he's he's sort of like if I'm the next he's the one that I'm like who's better than him that might be coming down the pike that's that he's the benchmark and so I guess that means I'm still not putting all my chips in for him quite yet and I want to see what pops up is is that fair or are they like gungho for him or what so what I had heard was that the salary some people felt that the salary was just was too onerous at least at this point this is probably a couple weeks ago at this point that they felt that the salary was was gonna really hurt them later in his deal but listen I mean I think obviously this dynamic can change at the drop of a dime I do I do think though that if they could if they loved the idea of towns right now they could have had them that's just my kind of read on the landscape in general so I think that tells you that you know they're not they don't see him as the the ultimate fix for everything or the player to take them to the next step no questions ask them I think there are questions there but I think you have to see now even if you're slightly interested in Carlton you have to see where this develops heading into the trade deadline because you know if Minnesota struggles I think they're almost kind of back into a corner at the point where they have to make a big move whether at the deadline or at the end of the season because how much longer can you let the you know towns go bare and then I'll not as read kind of experiment play out without success is it fair to say that the nicks are watching Philadelphia to see how this sorts itself out I have said before that if I'm not ready to throw my chips in for towns one of the reasons I'm not ready to throw my chips in for towns is the big dude who just won MVP and Philadelphia in a month and two months and six months might be looking around and said wait what what do we get for James Hardin like he's gone Ben Simmons is gone Mark L. Foltz never was really here what happened like all the stuff I mean if you reach anything that's happened around joe lmb it's like absolutely incredible but is it fair to say the nicks are at least have a close eye on that situation absolutely yeah I'm sure they're not the only team that's keeping an eye on that situation you have the organic ties obviously Leon Rose former CA agent joe lmb's agent and so there's that organic relationship you know if mb gets upset unhappy softly demands a trade or anything above that I'm sure the nicks will be right there the question I have though Zach and I'm curious to hear your thoughts do you think down where I would trade and be in his division to New York if he had you felt like he had to make a deal don't you think he would send him elsewhere I haven't thought about that because I've known Darryl a long time I'm not sure he cares about stuff like that I think you would just be like the best deal give me the best deal if you can get me the best deal I don't really care um interesting can can the nicks get him the best deal I mean the nicks have all their own picks all their own swaps they they just traded a potential interesting young player to the Pacers um they have a bunch of extra picks but if you look at them they're just eh like the Dallas Pick we all know about it's top 10 protected in the next two years let's say they get it this year so it could be if things go right it could be 11 12 13 14 if things go badly for the next it could be 20 22 24 yeah Detroit is top 18 top 13 top 11 top 9 could just turn into seconds who knows could but it's ceiling is 10 I mean by definition it's ceiling is 10 Washington top 12 top 10 top 8 become seconds so it's ceiling is nine so none of these picks have the sexy unprotected upside and they're attached to them to bad teams where it's like are we going to get this pick if when they have some good seconds including a second from Detroit this coming season which is a good pick um and and you know they've got good players on their team it's it's a it's a good amount of trade ammo but it's not it's it's not funger level and um even next level and and certainly jazz level but it's good and they're New York right they don't necessarily need to be the best the best because they're good and they're New York and they have an incumbent star so they can afford to be more aggressive than some of these other teams right yeah I think you certainly could put together an aggressive offer for a beat and and you've said it in the past and it's no different than today I think he's the most important piece in this hard in daremore a clippers who wherever hard and goes dynamic that's the most he's the most important piece of it for the reasons that we're talking about now that that's what I said that's what I said on TV the day we did our free agency special uh and we talked about hard and hard and hard and hard and and I said guys the the most important name in this whole thing and we haven't even said it yet is joelle and bead like that's the name that actually matters but I'm sorry go ahead no no certainly and so and bead obviously is is one of the guys that I think the nicks have their eye on we mentioned in an OB earlier as of uh I want to say late last week I hadn't heard anything about Toronto even listening or taking calls on an OB obviously that can change by the minute but based on that I would assume that they're keeping in an OB going into the season with him but I think that's somebody that nicks will continue to monitor design Williamson I mean he depending on how they do in New Orleans and his health I'm sure he's going to be somebody they keep an eye on too and so they'll they'll have options because there are always options and I think we've talked about Lillard and Harden just don't see them as the perfect fit for this club so to me it made sense for them so again wait it out a little bit see what happens in Philly and elsewhere before they make that big trade let's talk about the power forward position real quickly um OB topping was traded to Indiana for two second round picks a lot of disappointment among nicks fans like wait we just we essentially just gave up on this guy like we didn't even try to extend him at a favorable number generally plays pretty well when he plays obviously he has a pretty hard minutes cap tibs is just not going to play him and Randall together at the four in the five that's fine tibs has earned the benefit of the doubt with the work he's done with this team still uh you even hear people saying like is that just sort of a favor to OB and CIA to get him to a place where he can play that combined with Julius Randall shooting 37% in the playoffs albeit with an ankle injury uh in in the second round um and in 15 career playoff games now he's shooting 34% and that's not a big sample size I realize that but Julius Randall's not young anymore it's not RJ bear it like you know trying to learn the bright light so though he hadn't made the playoffs Randall before the nicks and it just looks it looked the same both playoff runs like stagnant inefficient poor shot selection like just can't carry over the same oomph from the regular season against postseason defenses top and gone Randall back two years left on his contract and then a player option at 32 million for 2526 I don't know what to assume about that at this point but that's not that far away like that's the that's the position of volatility on the team I think can you take me through the top and trade and kind of just where things are with Randall right so my understanding on top in was at the previous trade deadline 2023 trade deadline there were talks within the Anna and I think that what held up those talks at least my understanding was that the nicks were seeking you know significant draft compensation in a deal for top in I think Chris Varte was a part of some iterations of those talks obviously they don't get to the finish line but I think that there were there were people on all sides of it that felt that there was momentum towards getting it done nicks and of the day I think wanted more draft compensation than what Indiana wanted to offer now so you fast forward to here and now and they got two second on picks that project to be in the lower half of the second round which is not great not good at all and I just wonder about the process there with Topin I think that there was the scenario all along coming into this all season where if there was no moves made that cleared up an opportunity for Topin to have more minutes a bigger role this coming season I think the nicks and he were always going to kind of work together to find him another home and I think ultimately that's what happened here because the nicks knew that that move to create minutes for him to create a bigger path for him was not going to happen so they they found a home for him I don't know if it's a favor I don't know about the CIA aspect of it I don't know how much that played into it if at all but he does he's in a place where he should get more minutes and now the nicks are left with a hole behind Julius Randall now one thing Zach with Randall my my opinion just looking at things both playoff season I thought that this past postseason there were times where Randall just wasn't moving out in defense and I don't know why that was that's a question that I'll have I thought he I thought he backslid on defense and on the boards boxing out all regular season I thought he did not achieve the same kind of form that he had in prior seasons but the one thing about the postseason the shooting was not good but I thought he'd still move the ball relatively and like you know compared to where he was that previous playoff appearance I thought he continued to move the ball he drew to he got off of it led to some good shots for the nicks so I just I wonder how much that ankle played into what we saw from Julius Randall because he heard it going into the playoffs into that first round he rushed back to team two I want to say he rushed back for that Cleveland series they heard again so I think that factored in so I wouldn't necessarily say the book on Randall's playoff you know ability is written absolutely not still you know chapters there and I don't think there's a world right now where the nicks would move Julius Randall I mean it would have to be for you know like an mb or a player like that that's going to change your franchise day one as soon as he steps in the building that's fine Julius Randall's a really good player like really good I didn't have them on my all mba team this year but he's a really good player and a very good regular season player and this team can absolutely afford to just sort of see what they have and like part of what they have is players who have not hit their ceiling yet like Quentin Grimes there's it's not it's not like written in stone that Quentin Grimes is just topped out already as this sort of three in D and catch and go guy like he might get better he might make another leap a bear it might make another leap do smick bride is going to get chances the core guys are all still pretty young like there's upside on on a lot of these guys quickly I voted six man of the year over Malcolm Brogdon was not the same guy in the playoffs what happened and where do you think we go with extension talks because before the playoffs it was like oh is he going to get four years a hundred and fifteen million like it's going to be a huge number playoffs are small sample size but he just wasn't the same guy he didn't get the same minutes and was a little disappointing frankly after a really good a really good regular season yeah he did not play to that level or neared that level that he had established in the regular season against Cleveland or Miami and then he got hurt later in the Miami series did not come back I think you know it's obvious to say this but I think some of the coaches were a little a little bit disappointed with his play but I don't think in any way that impacts like the long-term feelings between the nicks and quickly in terms of his future now listen I think with Dante Diffincienzo here for four years I think that that whether it's Grimes or quickly or someone else who's kind of back court slash can defend on the wing a little bit I think it makes one of those players easier to move but nonetheless I would be surprised if they didn't come to an agreement with quickly on an extension whether it's you know 20 20 million annually 18 million annually somewhere in that neighborhood because they like quickly as a player and also because other teams will like quickly as a player and if he's signed to that extension I know you can't move him for a little bit but then you you can at least trade him for what his value is as a post of trading him on his rookie deal and trying to match it up in an awkward way in a trade yeah if he plays well next season and it may be like 90% as well as he did last season let's say let's say last season is a little higher I'm not and he could be better at 20 million that's going to be a contract that is easily movable the way the cap the cap is going to be it's 136 now could be all the way up to 146 148 next year like that's not a huge a huge number on the backup power forward thing I'm maybe I'm just dumb but I'm just not concerned like I'm not I mean I mean I and I like OB top and he was one of my in my six most intriguing players column before last season I think he's good I think he always plays well when he starts and when he gets minutes I think the jumper will come well enough that he can make open threes and something he's done that for an entire month at a time but like between you know Julius Randall will play some of the sort of benchy units when they have bench guys in because they stagger Brunson and Randall a lot so one of them will be out there at times at least and then like I heart bear it those guys are all capable of playing small ball for particularly against backups like I'm just not that concerned about that what I am concerned about is the next time they make the playoffs if it's another postseason where the offense just cannot produce because of a lack of shooting a lack of creativity a lack of whatever a like a complete dependence on jail in Brunson I mean their offense in the playoffs was Brunson when Brunson was off the floor they had nothing I it's just it's again it's only been three playoffs series total in the tibs era the tibs slash Randall era but the offense just if you're going to be a serious team your offense could not just fall off a cliff in the playoffs and their model in the regular season was ball security offensive rebounding free throws makes up for kind of our shaky jump shooting and it just hasn't worked in the playoffs but the backup power for spot I just don't I again I know fans are worried I'm not worried doesn't matter to me one thing on the backup for is if you're thinking of adding somebody like I know there was talk about Isaiah Robe having a chance to earn that spot based on some league and then whatever happens in training camp but if you're adding somebody you're going to 10 man rotation and Tom Tebudo had really good success in my opinion probably saved his job did save his job by going to a non-man rotation last year when they were 10 and 13 that changed the season so I think I can't see Tebudo going to a 10 man rotation and adding a player like a Robe let's say just to have a backup for I see it more likely that he works with heart and barrett and others to fill in that role that Topin has left here and when you talk about also the Zach I just wanted to make this point quickly the timeline for the next in terms of adding somebody big we talked about Julius' contract Jalen Brunson has a player option I believe in 20 same year 25 26 25 26 which he will turn down if he's playing anything like this that's you can put it in Sharpie now he's not he's not faxing in the paperwork on the player option he's turned it down so yeah so I look at that and I say that's another big contract they're going to have to invest in so to me you have to acquire that second star before you put that big Brunson number on the books because you haven't met such a team friendly number right now just talk about the shooting quickly I know that people in there within the NICS felt like we we need shooting we have to edge shooting going into this all season even Chenzel great shooting season with the Warriors if that could be replicated obviously that they would that would help the NICS as a as a shooting club but they didn't go out and and add much else there from a shooting perspective so that's surprised me a little bit I know that there was some interest in Max Truce but I don't think that was ever a reality given where the NICS were financially I know some on the coaching staff like Bruce Brown a lot again financials they weren't going to compete within the Anna so they weren't in an easy spot to edge shooting but it hadn't really been addressed in a significant way although even Chenzel did shoot it well last year I think this team isn't in a good position like I know the offseason there were no fireworks there was you know couple sparklers and that's really about it but I I think they're in a good position they won't have they're not slated to have cap room anytime soon which is which is fine I mean they're still very flexible with all these contracts and all these draft picks and and I think they're a good solid team like I think this is a I think they've done mostly the right stuff being patient and you know I said at the time that I like I'm history will tell the story I'm not going all in for Donovan Mitchell like all all in right set at the time like I don't really dislike that decision like I don't feel great about either outcome but now I feel a lot better about it as a NICS fan than I did than I did then and they they will save their their stuff to fight another day any other NICS stuff that we hadn't haven't covered I think we nailed everything Zach the one thing was even for me I I think look we talked about the how they value the contract there were some reports around the draft that they were gonna rush to move it I didn't have that sense I had the sense that you did that they really value it and and they're not looking to just dump it to dump it but at the same time can you bring him back to training camp after he said after the final game of the season that I'm going to be traded you guys know I'm going to be traded when he was talking reporters like would you be surprised if I'm back we'd all be surprised if he's back and so are you going to bring Evan 48 back to sit him out of the rotation just to find a better deal for him that's one dynamic that I'm keeping an eye on and the heart extension I think it'll come in under the max of 81 over four years maybe you know between 75 and 80 somewhere around there and I assume that gets done in early august when he's eligible for that and I think we covered it all Zach I'm not worried about bringing Evan 48 back to camp Ian Begley just does tremendous work covering the nicks in the whole league for SNY watch the put back with Ian Begley which I've been a guest on a couple of times hopefully he didn't kill your ratings Ian thanks for a little time you look like you're about to broadcast the local news back in New York City so go go do some reporting on a pedestrian struck by a bike delivery man over on Columbus Circle Ian thank you sir getting ready for the six p.m. Zach I appreciate you always great to talk with you all right another team that kind of a quiet offseason I've been trying to talk about trying to find an excuse to talk about as the pelicans well I shouldn't say quiet offseason there's with some noise about the pelicans off court offseason and then I saw oh no Larry Nantz Jr is going to be stuck in Las Vegas for a long time watching his brother play and show out in summer league I bet I can rope him in to talking about the pelicans because you're like you might be the last NBA veteran standing in Las Vegas right now Larry I am definitely the last man standing and I wouldn't say it's necessarily a title I'm proud of are you do you enjoy watching your brother do you get nervous watching your brother because these games are big for him this is not like a summer league like oh he's going to get shut down like this he's trying to make his NBA career right now it's both it's both like I love watch this is the coolest thing in the world right like for he's seven years younger than me and so like me my sister we're talking she was out here earlier as well and we were talking about how like 14 year olds aren't allowed to be in the NBA summer league like what are they doing it's like no he's full blown adult now and and it's just um you know the the emotions you watch so proud just so happy for him but at the same time like I'm so much more nervous for his games than I am on like my hands wet watching his games and stuff it's it's uh it's a nerve wrecking you know that there were questions on Twitter about whether you were wearing your own jersey to his game no because you wore a nans jersey and people are like wait is Larry nance wearing a Larry nans jersey to the game like no no no his brother is playing at the it wouldn't be kind of bad as if a player just showed up in his own jersey would not be maybe not bad as it would be funny if it's like somebody showed up it would have to be the right player I'd have to find the right player to do it I'll get kooz he'll do it yeah kooz probably kooz I think kooz will do it how about kooz getting paid I'm happy for man I'm happy for him I'm at the point in my career where like I used to be I'd look at these contracts and be like oh man I can't wait till I'm up and all this type of stuff and just like now sit back and it's like oh good for you like good for squeeze every ounce of of money you can out of this thing let me go through so delo kooz josh clarkson you like is there still an old lakers group chat like hey remember when we were when we were like the future and then all of us ended up on the pelicans except for who's there's still like a group because like I remember there were like all look at the lakers like this is kind of exciting bi too sorry I forgot bi I forgot the the the headliner like it was is there is there's still a group chat um there's not there's not you know that was a with so many young guys in that situation it was um it was more more fight each other for what you've got rather than uh kumbaya um but you know now that we're all away now that we're all away from the organization on to other different things like I'm just so happy to see everybody everybody's success right like another name for so is out there as well it's right and so the the zoo box was out there the talent we had a mast was and we knew it you'd look around a locker and be like you have you have me Julius and kooz at the four like what a Randall I forgot Randall to like goes a whole slew of dudes yes that have all moved on Julius is now made two all NBA teams yes and it's it's the coolest thing in the world getting to watch those guys because like um like and we all have our specific niche and these guys like in LA you watched Julius start to create that you watch bi start to create that you watch dealers start to create it and it's just like you know seven years down the road it's like man it paid off it's really cool it was really cool to see and these guys are just um we don't talk as much as we should but I I mean everyone knows that I'm wish them the very best I make sure to tell them that all right so you you made a little news yesterday clapping back on his Zion Williamson report that was the report was I heard not I had that glow um another reporter Zion's not working on his jumper on his floater on the touch shots you know he needs to to work on the stuff to play griffin did and he's maybe not putting in the work I'm paraphrasing but that's essentially what it was and you tweeted something back like that's actually not true like did there we can talk about other stuff with Zion but he is working on that kind of stuff and I that insure I'm glad that's kind of why I decided to ping you because he's only played 29% of his games I have never spent any time with him I'm not sitting around the practice facility with him so for a lot of us who are not around your team he's kind of a black box like we don't actually know what he's doing and then like there's this Instagram dunks will come out and everyone will be like oh is he should he be dunking and like actually don't know what he's doing basketball wise so like what is he doing basketball wise um he is we've never seen anything like him right and I think everyone can agree with that so those one-of-ones do things differently than everybody else right Katie doesn't train how everybody else trains women down is not gonna train how everybody else trains right we've seen there are there are one-of-ones and for Z it often takes a little while to learn how to do that right like how do you train someone that is six six and moves like literally moves for the lane like a wrecking ball I don't know and a lot of I think a lot of the answer to these trainers sometimes don't know as well um and that's it takes time to learn and so I think he's in a space now after you know talking to him and seeing um seeing him out here and and you know obviously like you said we've we've heard a little bit of chatter uh not about the NBA but not in my that's not that's outside my area that I take no no me too um me too but like I think he's he's refocused and I think he's if I were allowed to bet I would bet he's gonna have a monster year truly but your point in that tweet was he actually is working on some of these skill elements of his game that's that's accurate oh it's very accurate but it's very accurate the the man's touch is probably the best in the NBA you know it's it's it's insane so um and his he's working on his threes he's working on his jumpers he's working on his mid range but with all that being said when he plays right we we've estate you know he's got things he he's his health right that's that's the issue is health but when he plays the man is a certified monster so even if like he is working on that stuff but if he wasn't he still can't stop him yeah we had a big um we a few of us went out for you know just the Vegas dinner last night all NBA people and we're at we just talk NBA and Zion came up and we were talking about the draft and like what would you have done if you were griff at the draft like what you're like what would you do now would you trade Zion or like what's Zion's trade value and I was like honestly I what here's exactly what I said I said I don't trust Zion just availability was but I'd be afraid to trade him yeah and they were like wait a second you don't trust him to be available but you be afraid to trade him why and I was like he's one of the five best offensive players in the league when he's healthy like there's just nothing you can do with him offensively and I think I would still be if I were theoretically running the pelicans I would still be afraid to trade him and see him figure out the stuff to make him available and like I'm gonna live the rest of my life that I traded that dude I think that's like another year from now if he plays 25 games obviously I'd be in a bad spot as the GM and I would have bet wrong but that's where I am now yeah I mean I I agree I agree he's he's you know I often think I might like to get into front office work when I'm done I think I've got a good mind and understanding of how the league works and some ideas to improve it but at the same time and I put on my GM hat sometimes and you look and it's like we were torching the league last year I mean there was nothing people could do we were first in the west and our margin of victory was very large and it was him we had need we didn't even really have be eye on the court and it was just this guy that was was like I said just wrecking balling through team's defense is taking over games in the fourth quarter and he hasn't really gotten a whole lot of NBA experience so he's you know again if you can figure out all this stuff you've got a top five player at 22 years old already how do you you know I I don't know what you do with that I can hear people pushing back on top five offensive player in the league and I truthfully didn't think it through and you've started yokech curry and you start going to rant whatever I don't think that's ridiculous so I don't think it's ridiculous to say now and that's for sure like his ceiling is top two to three offensive player you know defense he's got to figure out but like I'll do that's but that's how good that dude is offensive they all do nobody I mean come on there's like that's let's be real there's like two or three guys this average that score for 20 that plague that play defense really you think that's true in the play it's not true in the play no it's not true in the playoffs but like I was exaggerating a little bit but like you know I mean if you if you are that if you are that on offense you know what let us shoulder some of your burden on defense we got you that's what I'm out there for to switch for you so you don't have to last Zion question because I don't want to make you the Zion spokesperson I do he did he went on Gilbert Arena says show this week and he talked about his training and how he has faith in his you know ability to kind of mimic LeBron stuff and then he talked about his diet and he was pretty candid he was like look as hard man I'm like 21 I'm rich I'm in a great food city I'm traveling the country to the best restaurants like it's hard so again I don't know Zion so like very dumb question does he go out to dinner with his teammates and when he orders food are you are the teammates trying to be like hey man like order this or this or this is there like do people get in his business like that so CJ and I do um CJ and I do as as as the vets in the team yeah we taking dinner and and you know have dinners and talk about you know just like how hard it is to make it to the league it's that much harder to stay right in the things you the things the the example I use right is like in religion in the NBA terms right my man's got a Lamborghini he's got a Lamborghini that's what his body is right me I'm really happy in my in my and I don't want I don't want to make light of anybody of any car brand or anything but I'm in my key in terms of NBA's right in NBA but look you've had some pretty monster dunks in your career 100 percent but look you tossed me the ball on offense and I'm going to set a pick and roll like I'm going to run into a ball screen I'm not breaking people down and averaging 27 at 22 years okay there you know I don't think I I don't think of score 27 in a game so soft I'm in my you know I'm in my key I can put regular gas in my car every not again right and it's not going to and it's not nothing's going to happen you put regular gas in a Lamborghini and it's not it no okay it's going to be you know it's going to choke out and it's not like it will not run for you and you know there are certain things that you watch guys do that you can't do just like we sit there and watch you against Minnesota score our final 13 points and win us the game I can train I can work out for as long as I want and that ain't happening so with the gifts you have you have to sacrifice some and he's so he's so receptive to it right he's he's he's been incredible in in and he the strides he's made since I've gotten to be with him has been remarkable truly but it just we haven't seen it yet on a court on a court perspective and I think I would bet that this year like I said I'm I'm I know we're in Vegas so I'm gonna say I'm I'm putting my I'm going to sportsbook and I'm betting on that kid so there's a guy on your team that when I talk to other front office people and coaches around the league we might start talking about Zion or BI or you know how are they going to get under the tax or whatever CJ you know what who should they trade they have all these picks and I find often the conversation steers back toward this guy yeah and his and what I keep hearing about him is keep an eye on him because I think people think he's going to be a good role player and he might be better than that and he might have like 20 plus point per game potential and it's tray Murphy the third so tell so tell me about and like I'm I'm actually softening it like I've heard people say he could actually be a star like an all star star type player I I love tray Murphy I have not quite seen enough to go there yet but I don't think that's ridiculous so tell me about him first of all I can't stand tray me and him don't get along and you can tell I said it but yeah I tend to be in the camp of the people that say he is the capability of being a star yeah obviously I've seen a lot of it like we said I branded when he was young Julius young D'Angelo and he was young around so around coups I was in Cleveland they drafted Darius Garland I was in Cleveland they drafted Evan Mobley so like I've seen some really impressive young talent and the kind of person slash work ethic that leads to being a star and I think that tray I think that tray has the same ability obviously like his his intangible his physical attributes are off the wall the dude puts us out at the rim he's a full blown six nine I didn't realize he was that tall he's big yeah yeah he's he's he's tall but his work ethic is where it shines through and him and him and Cory Brewer and Teresa Witherspoon last year just really really made leaps and bounds with his with his game and from the looks of it and after talking to him he's he's pushing for more of this offseason so I agree with you I don't think I don't think we're talking high level role player I think we're talking potential second or third best player on a contending team like just based on the conversations I've had with front office people and I'm not saying the Pelicans would do this or should do this but if they ever made it known that they would put him in a trade like they could get into conversations for like mega names in the NBA now not just him but would have to be other stuff but I don't think they're gonna do that because if they did they would have done it by now and gotten a mega name like they're very high on Trey Murphy the third you mentioned the calves you left the calves when they were just starting to build this team you left the Lakers early got traded to the calves it made the finals lost the finals Portland lasted a hot second didn't work out then Pelicans start storming the league and then injuries destroy the team are you used to do you look back at the calves one particularly with like I can't believe like you're a Cleveland guy you're a Cleveland guy like do you look back at that like man I would I would love to be a part of that but now you're here and it's like I would love to get this going it just feels like you keep being on these teams with a great promise man are you starting to get like you just have one season where like I get to be on the team that makes its promise come true yeah um absolutely obviously Cleveland was home for me and and um I I absolutely adore everybody in that organization truly the people the guys in the locker room to get training staff the weight staff the front off from top to bottom I adore everybody in that organization um but it it it was time you know they just they just drafted have um Jay they just Jay just got a hundred mil K. Love was still on the roster and some looking at it like you know I I understand I get how the league works these guys are these guys have got to play um so going to Portland was supposed to be great and it was quite the opposite and started their started their potential rebuild if that's what we're going to call it and we'll see what happens this all season of course but like um no I'm like when we went to the finals with Braun I don't believe I was ready as a player um we had I just come from LA and and we hadn't really played a serious game out there um and then getting thrust into that was was was tough like those were serious serious basketball games and and me and me and JC didn't that wasn't what we'd been in our whole career so um but like three or four years ago I was just like man I'm so ready I'm so ready and I can be so valuable for a contending team like we look around like what Bruce did with the nuggets what Dremont's done with the with the warriors when Brandon Clark before Brandon Clark Torres Torres ACL what he was doing with the Grizzlies like even Grant with the with the Celtics Terrence man popped up in yeah in big minutes with the Clippers last year or two years ago and like there's becoming a mold of guys like myself like the kind of in between height can play the small ball five can guard one through five that like finished games that are becoming so so valuable across the league and I um I'm a little biased but personally I think I'm one of the very best of those and uh just haven't been fortunate enough to to be on teams where I can show it but um I think New Orleans like I said I'm I'm I'm betting on Z and I'm betting on us this year and and I know when we're good I'm a monster too every time someone reads off the stat of how many games CJ BI and Zion have played together since CJ got there I'm like what I I know it's low but it's like oh my god like you just haven't had your team at all no we haven't and it's been tough like the talent in the locker room is objectively it's so hot we haven't even mentioned her man herb is good herb herb herb's contract is it like what a win win for everybody yes yes and I that you know like I just got through talking about being happy for everybody that dude especially I'm so happy for him because that money he just got is going to buy him so much land in Alabama for him to fish for him to go fishing on and it's just he's he's uh he he works so hard and just is a is a great dude and herbs the man but like our locker room is Jose Najee Kyra um we just drafted Hawkins EJ just got healthy um I'm trying to think of like the guys we haven't talked about yet um Dyson shoot Dyson looks great Dyson Daniels I was I was you know he obviously faded a little bit toward the end of the season but if that kid can just make enough open threes yeah he's got the IQ the size the rebounding coast to coast like he's got he's got a lot to his game to like and hope his Jose to the degree that you guys like ever actually practice and scrimmage anymore in the NBA has he ever gotten you with the the crouching tiger hidden alvarado steal in the back court no no he don't do that a practice because I mean come on now you can't get us we sit there and watch it on the sidelines constantly you're not getting us um but oh yeah no he him and Jose and Najee are like they raise the level of practice three notches because they that how the hard they play in the game is if they're playing ones if they're playing two's three's four's five if we're playing in practice that's what you're getting from them is it true that you and Josh heart traded houses oh you got traded for each other yeah absolutely he took your house in Portland and you took his house in New Orleans yes do either of you own the houses or they rent the house we both on them do all know yeah we both on them were you good tenants for each other did you leave like did you leave some some surprises around the house for Josh did he leave any but did he do any damage to your house um no it was it was pretty good it was pretty good um it was a pretty good exchange um you know we we were great we were great knew I made sure to leave it just how we found it and you know he was he was the same way in Portland obviously you know we have we both have dogs so dogs take their wear and tear but no it was it was it was uh it was great but at the same time I I know both of us are very glad to be to be not doing that anymore to be not trade to be yet to be not he's not in my house I'm not in his house I sold that one in Portland and you know he's I think he's working on the same thing in New Orleans and we're just you know it's it's uh that was probably more of a headache than it was worth that happens more than people think in the NBA guys live in each other's houses does it yeah there's been a few examples Joe Johnson did it once I think with I can't remember who it was there's been a few David Lee I feel like David Lee might have been involved with one at one point I know uh when Stephen and Jonas got traded for each other um I I believe JV stayed in Stephen's house for a little bit that's great because they're both such it's got to be unpleasant to guard JV like it just like I feel like the centers who are just like on a back to back like I got to deal with this dude and hitting me the entire game and like smashing me like he's got he's not a modern I I have a soft spot for JV because he's not a modern center and early in his career it was like well we got to modernize him in all these different ways and then mid career was like you know what I'm just going to get really good at that I do yeah he shoots like 0.83s a game now and can make them but like he stayed true to his soul is like I'm just an ass kicker and I'm gonna maximize what I can do as an ass kicker but man guarding him's got to be a bear he he's it is it is because he I mean of course you know for the second half of my career so far I've played a lot of center and I'm look this it counts out of the back I'm about 67 right I'm not I'm not that big and so guarding these guys like JV's just puts that big shoulder in you hit JV subonus subonus is the worst he's he's so physical he's got he's got the elbows he hits you with the balls it's a Lithuanians man those two those two go at when they play each other I'll just sit there and watch and be like I am so happy I'm not like please put Trey Liles in or please put me to whoever you're you're let Keegan Murray slide of the five so I can go switch one through five and not have to deal with subonus's elbows and shoulders and JV and just it's a whole mess I'm gonna read you a list of names all of these people are on your team in your rookie year I mean this is like an NBA mad lives of just like guys yeah Lou Williams I mean there are 900 Lou Williams stories all of them amazing smoothest dude I ever met in all facets of life probably all facets of life was he in the dating two girls at the same time phase when he was on your team um I do believe so but I'm not uh I'm I'm not certain I'm not certain Nick Young yes Kobe Bryant uh-huh meta-world piece Roy Hibbert Jordan Clarkson that's a that's a cast of characters all across the NBA spectrum of personality accomplishment everything pick a PG-13 story about the R-rated ones we'll we'll leave uh-huh we we know about the Nick Young D-Low saga we don't have to get into that and what knows about that getting into that um pick a PG-13 story about any of those guys that has stuck with you that maybe you haven't told before and lay it on me okay um I know I told John I had one but I another one just popped through my mind I'll make this one quick I'm the first one is Roy Hibbert um he was kind of my vet when I got in um we both like video games and and he was kind of who eased my transition in the NBA with understanding how to be a professional um but I was in high school I didn't go out or do anything that wasn't really my thing I worked out play video games and that was it college same thing I didn't I didn't party at all I worked out play video games and and to be honest we played a lot of board games in college um so I didn't go out and didn't really drink that wasn't my thing let's say what's the go-to board game I need to give me to the go-to board games oh you're not gonna know them like full blown like to like no like pieces like miniatures and like okay like it major Dungeons and Dragons five I thought we were gonna get like we had a really competitive category tonight oh no basketball team no like like like like Warhammer type big again Warhammer and like hero scape type game so real nerdy stuff but that's what I was into okay um and so I get to the league and Roy kept inviting you know inviting me and my wife then a girlfriend now wife like hey come to dinner with us here come come out with us here come here and I was like oh no thanks no thanks I can't here and so one time he finally goes hey I'm just gonna let you know this is the last invitation I send you before I officially like stop inviting you because you never come to anything and that was like a wake up call for me where it was like why am I why am I not like these guys are my teammates my friends like I don't have to I don't have to engage in debauchery to go out with them and so I started doing it and experiencing more and it's just it's made me a whole lot closer with my teammates and and and made more friends in the NBA so Roy is a lot made a lot of who I am in the NBA so I thank Roy for that I think people were maybe like when I read all those names it's a bunch of big personalities and Roy and but when you look back at Roy's career like he became almost like an archetypal player for about two or three years like everybody wanted a rim protector like Roy Hibber he was the verticality guy he still got a rule named after him and it yeah and it like came and went like the game I'm not gonna say passed him by but it changed in a way that was bad for him like so fast one day he'll sit down and give a really open and interesting interview about his time in the league and it will be really interesting no it is true because even like when he was in Indiana I got drafted and was drafted as an undersized I was a small power forward yeah and then one year later he was with me in or he was with me in in LA and I started to close games at the five and so it was within that little window where it was like hey this guy might be too small to play the four but the way the leagues going let's it was Dremond Dremond did all of it he changed the league we'll say stuff obviously but like Dremond changed that and Dremond ruined it for a lot of bigs and so like it it shifted in like six to eight months and Roy was Roy was like coaching at Georgetown yeah 100% like playing on a playing on a vetman in in Charlotte it's like what you were just the prototype yeah it happens fast all right second story second story second story um it is uh I'll go with a Kobe story I'll go with a Kobe story and this one I haven't talked about a lot because it's been one of the worst nights of my life um best and then went to very worst um but a lot of positive came out from it and it leaves them in an in a great light so um I first got my Twitter around 2010 I'd say um so that was around sophomore junior year of high school and saying a lot of stupid things and so I I had I had a tweet about Kobe that I had forgotten about got lost in the depths of time until I got drafted to the Lakers um so I hear my name called my family's excited we're just like what is going on I just got drafted the NBA by the Lakers by the Lakers the coolest thing in the world best night of my life and then I start getting these Twitter notifications like performance blowing up I don't worry about it like I just got drafted they're just you know people happy for me um it was not it was people talking about this tweet and you can look the tweet up and I'm you know I'm it's it's um you know not something I'm proud of but like the way it was about him and the way my stomach sank when I saw it I don't think I'll ever feel something like that again because of all people like I grew up watching this man win championship after championship after championship and and and the respect and admiration you had for was just incredible and on top of all that the two guys probably the two last guys the NBA you did not want to piss off was him and KG were like the two like do not piss them off and I thought I had just ruined my career by this getting out there and so I'm sick that night talking to management how to hand how to handle it they sent me his number and I I just I have it and I just go to sleep and I don't go to sleep but I I was up the whole night so the next morning made my wife decide um we're gonna go get we're gonna get pedicures so I you know just to take my mind off that would do whatever so before we went in I sent a text to him he was on vacation and just was like to mr. Bryant you know I'm just explaining apologizing you know and saying anything I could to potentially get in grace again and left my phone in the car we went we went and got pedicures and I came back out to a text back and it was just like again stomach and knots like in the bathroom like six six six beyond belief and get a text back and it was just like don't worry about it water into the bridge welcome to the family can't wait to have you and it was the sense of relief and deep appreciation I have for him there's nothing anybody could ever say or show me or or anything that would take him out of the highest of highs in my mind because he could have ruined my career with snap of finger stop me before I started to be clear for listeners the tweet was about the Denver sexual assault case and you can look it up and Kobe Kobe let it slide um no he was he was just so um graceful about it and and I just there were times throughout the year where fans were yelling I mean one okay see fans real out of me I was sitting next to one of the bench and fans were yelling stuff about it and he like you could tell I was I was trying to I was trying to shrivel up and die in the moment and he just would tap me on the knee and be like I've heard people have called me worse man don't worry about it and just the grace he showed he to me he is when I'm done playing I will have one I will have him to thank for my entire career because he could have ended it within a moment's notice and um I'm just so grateful for him and his presence and his his his grace in the situation you mentioned it so I have to ask because anytime anyone mentions KG I have to ask I'm just like beyond fascinated by KG did you ever piss KG off no absolutely no absolutely not no I was he was another guy that I looked up to I wore shoes in high school but no I I I I that was not it's a good thing you didn't tell him you tried to try to tell him you looked up to him absolutely no do you have you heard the joke you know a story about that yes like he does not receive opponent an adjulation but I mean I've got I've got a Roy Hiver story about that in the KG but uh that's weird we said PG 13 yes I kept it PG 13 but yes I've seen it I've seen his um his his uh opponent how he handles opponents Larry nitch junior you got to go watch your brother uh who are they playing today they play the bulls today yeah okay all right and at what's their record as you get it is he all right a couple more games left I think they're three and oh oh I think they're three oh the calves are cooking the calves are cooking and they got they got this they got the six eleven they got six eleven mixed kid that you're shooting it pretty well right now okay all right well thank you for your time good luck hope the Pelicans can stay healthy we get a full season out of it or as close as we can like see what this team actually is go watch a little bro and uh I'll see you around the block sounds good appreciate you having me all man all right let's bring in Evan wash and I already forgot your title at the MBM I'm going to guess senior vice president of basketball operations and referee operations none of that what's your title executive vice president basketball strategy analytics that's the same they had basketball in there that's good it's the same thing yeah senior vice president executive vice president it's the same thing and one of the architects if not the foremost architect of the new in season tournament NBA cup which was announced this week in Las Vegas it was outlined uh in depth there will be six groups of five teams each three Eastern conference groups three Western conference groups round Robin everyone plays head to head games top winner of each group advances that six two second plays finishers advance that's eight quarter finals semi finals and finals will be in Vegas in December all the group games will be in November it's called the NBA Cup are you excited are you happy with the response so far there has been a lot of skepticism and I feel like the skepticism is beginning to wane into why not try it yeah so first of all thanks for having me on uh and yes very excited uh many many people put in a lot of effort to get us to this so many architects at league office collaboration with teams players association network partners like huge huge huge lift to get us here why is it exciting now as you mentioned on on Saturday here in Vegas we had our official launch so we had a show uh thanks to your colleagues uh on ESPN with NBA today Malika RJ hosting uh the last four number one picks from the the NBA tray young coach Kerr revealed the trophy for the tournament the NBA Cup I know you guys talked about that with uh with Kevin the other day so yes you can drink out of that if you want um and we revealed the logo as well as the the teams uh in the groups for the group play portion so a lot of energy as you said there's been some skepticism but a huge piece of this was finding a format that addressed potential criticisms and we think we've really landed the plane here in terms of something that's gonna increase the quality of competition create that secondary championship but not be disruptive to the season so as you said there's not a whole lot of reason to be against it at this stage we hope people have an open mind come November December and we think it's gonna be fun okay so six groups yeah you've divided so three eastern conference groups three western conference groups so the finals will be east west yes you've divided the groups with sprinkling in different team records from the previous season so a couple elite teams a middle team a bad bad poor record team from the previous season and everyone plays headdad so that's four games yep dumb question number one if two teams finish three and one is it just a head to head game that decides it correct the order of tie breakers for the group play is head to head first followed by point differential total points and then prior season record okay I like that so it's essentially follows a feeble world cup model of tie breakers and similarly for the wild card spots the seven and eight spots uh who are the two best teams best record wise that did not win their group how will that get decided because they will probably not have played head to head they definitely will not have played head to head because they're in different groups so that would go straight to point differential total points prior season record so point differential I did not know that that was part of it until right now was there was their thought put into that because that then incentivizes me to like if I'm winning by 20 maybe to win by 28 and like not take my guys out as early yeah we spent a ton of time on on every element as you can imagine and this was one we talked about quite a lot essentially what we were trying to do is keep the advancement calculations and scenarios contained to the group play so not bring in you know ideally in the first instance you know someone suggested we'll use the teams record to date and all the other games and now you say well but teams are gonna have played a different number of games different strength of schedule maybe even you know significantly different home away balance that wouldn't be fair and you start to think about well what else could you look at that's contained to just these four group play games when the teams won have played each other the most natural thing to look at as a measure of the teams performance in the group play is what was their point difference right obviously that's incredibly predictive of record in the long run but for four games it can vary quite a lot so yeah you're going to get some scenarios where a team maybe needs to keep their foot on the gas in a game that the other wise you know wouldn't have and that's an added excitement right obviously we all watch world cup play in both soccer and basketball and if a team is up you know the soccer team is up 2o in the world cup in the last game but needs to win by three to advance they don't take their stars out they go get that third goal because that's what you need to advance so we expect to see some of that in our tournament as well so my biggest worry which now in retrospect feels like a dumb worry was fans are not gonna be able to understand that on this particular night when there are nine NBA regular season games that games x y and z are also group play games for the in season tournament and it looks to me like you've addressed that by the group play games are going to be on seven nights I think yep four Fridays and three Tuesdays or the other way around essentially all the Tuesdays and Fridays in November just the one exception is election day where we we don't play games at all so it's the you know three remaining Tuesdays the four remaining Fridays in November and those will be what we call tournament nights I'm glad you don't play games on election night because I I tried I tried watching games on election night and I can't do it I just can't do it it's too stressful yeah I mean obviously it's just it aligned with our missions as well around I can't be puking and watching the Minnesota Timberlost play the Brooklyn that's so on those seven days yes are there only going to be group games you know other games correct so those are those are going to be called tournament nights and the only games played on those tournament nights will be group play games and this was a big learning you guys you know mentioned with Kevin as well the Commissioner's Cup in the WMBA and so that was one of our testing grounds essentially we also have in our g-league something called the showcase cup that takes some elements of this model as well so we had a chance to test these things and see how they played out and one of the big learnings from the Commissioner's Cup in the W was that it became hard to follow because the Commissioner's Cup qualifier games or group play games essentially were just sprinkled within the calendar and on any given night there might be Commissioner's Cup games and non Commissioner's Cup there's no you know science to which days of the week they took place and so that was a big learning and in fact this specific idea came from one of the players on our competition committee who no come on you got to be fun you got to be fun it's a good idea credit the player Kyle Lowry of course it was Kyle Lowry it's always those point guards who are one step ahead they don't pray Kyle probably I'm going to stop I love Kyle so Kyle so Kyle talked about how you know when when you you look at a season and for example you play a team three times and you've split the first two games that third game and you know Chris Paul talked about this as well on our committee another another of the maniacal point guards who actually think about all the minutia and all the rules they they are you know they are in this and obviously big big helps in the all-star game back in 2020 as we put the the score target in as well we're going to talk about the you know they're building that energy but anyway they talked about how you know if you're playing that third matchup against the team that you've split the first two that game takes on an added importance it's not just a regular season game because now it also determines the tiebreaker between those two teams and so they suggested bringing in that element into the end season where if we know that every game on those Tuesdays and Fridays is these tournament nights then the team can follow that get up for it and the players can ultimately bring that you know that extra little level of them not to say that teams are not going 100% in the regular season but that additional also I can say that I'm not saying that okay but I are they every time they take the court they're competing to the best they can but I think that that extra adrenaline energy that comes with those nights we think will really differentiate them and to your point help fans follow it as well there have been people who have proposed like ways to even make this livelier one of the proposals like can we get a couple of the best international teams to come over a g-league all-star team like all of these things is are any of those feasible are they just like too complicated they're they're feasible in in the as I said many years of conversations we've had around this we went through a bunch of different iterations one of which was a straight knockout tournament where you'd ideally want to field of 32 because that's a you know round round number of two and so you'd play a five round tournament where you take a two week break in the season five rounds crown a champion that became a an issue from a time off perspective so teams that losing the first round would have 11 days off there was concerns with conditioning competitive issues so we moved away from that but in a model like that you would need to identify what are two teams are competing so do you bring in you know a yearly champion and a CBA champion do you bring in g-league teams obviously it's a little odd because they're affiliated and so you know as a team sending a t player signing a player to the g-league you're calling up a g-league player for their tournament game so we we have and obviously put that into the initial format but one of the things we talk about a lot with this is because it is new and because we're trying to establish a new tradition it's very likely that we're going to see elements over time that we can change and improve and so I wouldn't rule out the inclusion of other teams over time but it's not part of the initial model what was the wildest iteration of this that actually got discussed in competition committee and or league office circles like the absolute wildest one like let's have it in the in London or I don't know I don't even know yeah let's have it be games to 50 I don't even know what it would be yeah I mean if you put all the individual pieces that we talked about together we get wild there wasn't one wild idea but if you said oh we're going to play it with score targets and we're going to play it as a knockout tournament and we're going to play it overseas with these additional teams to try to you know build up fan bases in other countries like you start to get to pretty different outcomes but there wasn't one proposal where we said like hey here's an outside the box crazy idea because ultimately this was about finding a feasible solution for all of our stakeholders and by definition something crazy probably wasn't going to meet the bill are there without necessarily naming names are there still people on the competition committee or GMs presidents of basketball operations coaches that you hear from that are just like I hate this this is a bad idea this is soccer we're not soccer no one's going to care about this that has to still exist like in the ecosystem yeah but I think we're at the point where about a year ago when we started to really incorporate a lot of the feedback we were hearing concerns about different iterations we had had and found a way to essentially build it into the regular season right every single game in this tournament is a regular season game with the exception of the one championship game and when we started to talk about what we thought the long-term value potential of this tournament would be from a media perspective from a gate perspective a partnership perspective it became harder for GMs board of governors players coaches to disagree that this was worth trying there's still I imagine many people who are not as bullish or optimistic as we are about it but there's not as not nearly as many voices saying we shouldn't do this because it's really hard to find the reason why we shouldn't so I'm not hearing anymore this is a bad idea I certainly hear people say like I don't think this is going to be the greatest thing ever but they're open to it and that's I think a big win uh the winning teams players get 500,000 a pop right and the runner up 200,000 yep um over the years where this was in the in the discourse there was lots of debates about you know that's chump changed NBA players they won't care how else can we incentivize teams to really care about this some people even said like maybe you should get an extra draft pick maybe like maybe it should guarantee a playoff appearance was one of the wildest ideas that I heard um how much consideration was given to those kinds of things and are there other things like that that were discussed so I mentioned one thing that got a lot of discussion before I think this area in addition to the how do you deal with the schedule in the regular season piece got this single most amount of attention is what is the payoff and ultimately why we've netted out where we are is that in the long term we're trying to create something that has the potential to rival you know our playoffs and finals in terms of team and player perceived value not saying it's ever going to be the lario brine we don't want that but we want the maximum possible ceiling for this tournament so that it can be seen as a true secondary championship the minute you tie into our other season in some way you essentially cap that ceiling so for example if you give a playoff spot to the winner of this tournament you have created another play tournament that just takes place in December instead of in april it also creates standings chaos sure there's a bunch of other weird things but at the end of the day you've created another stepping stone and a stepping stone by definition is subservient to that end of season goal and so we wanted something that could stand alone the challenge with that is of course it creates more risk because there's no immediate intrinsic value that comes from something that doesn't tie into what we've already seen but we're betting on our players we're betting on our teams and betting on ourselves to create the excitement the energy and the tradition around this that over time will allow us to achieve that maximum ceiling as opposed to just raising the floor but but capping the upside of this so I mentioned draft picks I mentioned playoff spots like what other kind of incentives yeah so we talk draft pick playoff spots bonus wins salary cap exceptions you know massive financial prizes for teams what is a what is a bonus win like the winner of the each winner each knockout round counts as two regular season wins in the standings for example and the championship game maybe counts as four regular season wins and so you could leapfrog teams in the standings as a result of winning the in season tournament again in addition to having the issue I talked about before in terms of standing alone that's also we just felt a little gimmicky they like wait so one team's gonna have 87 games in their standings because they got a four bonus win it just didn't feel right at some point the fans have to be able to understand what's happening without without with like I want to be fans have to be able to like I want to load one web page and read it yeah eight seconds and understand what's happening and we think we've gotten there man obviously it's gonna take a little bit of learning but this is such a familiar format in in other competitions the idea of group stage and you know group play a knockout stage and so you know our our tagline we'll be using is third all 30 compete atal advance and want to want to be crown champion and we think teams will get it and and fans will get it sorry pretty quickly I've already said this on the low post podcast I'm not just saying this because you're here now I think it's gonna work yep at the very least I think it's worth trying like no harm no foul I don't think teams are gonna change playing time patterns in like the first couple of group games I don't think the Celtics are gonna play like Jason Tatum 48 minutes to go one and oh in the group stage I don't even think maybe you believe that would have happened or want that to happen but I do think as we get closer it's gonna I think people are gonna be like oh this is kind of exciting and to me just as a consumer I think the group stage nights are is the best part about it that that's gonna be very easy to consume and understand okay tonight's slate of games is all group games they all count in a different setting too I think that was I think it's gonna work I'm not as I said on my podcast so I were a fan of like whatever team is playing into semi finals I don't think I'm gonna feel like the same anxiety and pacing around the room as I would in the NBA finals but it's gonna be fun but but not in year one right I mean you know go back 80 years roughly the first NBA finals did the teams and the fans of those teams feel that energy for the first ever NBA finals probably not but the tradition was built over time and now that's what we feel and so this is not going to it doesn't have to be a slam dunk in your one we want it to grow we want the energy and excitement to build and I think we talk about play in tournament for example there was focus on well what is that ad right and at the end of the day we actually got two separate benefits the added excitement of the regular season more teams in contention more competitive matchups and then we got the benefit of those single elimination do or die games in April which are great on trade of the playoffs I agree with you I think the group play is gonna be exciting and fun and maybe not in game one but in game four when actual advancements on the line but I'm equally excited about then coming here like an NBA final four in Vegas with real stakes on the line which we don't have at any neutral site competition I think that's unique to you know I mentioned to some people like just around town this week I've had multiple people who have no idea that I have anything to do with the in season tournament ask me about the in season tournament because we've plastered Vegas with signage to market that will be here in December and it's it's just exciting so I think that is going to be you know one of the key benefits in addition to the group play all right so we're in we're now in your world of rules and gameplay and structure so I'm going to ask you some stuff some some thinking about the game stuff ideas that have been floated before okay we're going to go rapid fire okay um are you still doing one shot for all the free throw points in the G league like instead of a three shot foul just one free throw worth three points yes until the last two minutes until the last two minutes because we don't want this strategy of intentional fouling to in the variability of zero versus two or zero versus three points to take over so yes they're so my now Mike always colleague and technically former ESPN colleague Jeff Angande who's the best we love you Jeff got a lot of traction a couple weeks ago when you said I don't even want any free throws yeah to be shot in games just give them the points and move on clearly that's probably never going to happen but how is how is it worked in the G league do people like it they do had their have have there been like weird strategic tweaks because of it's not really I think one one of the things that we were focused on we put it in the game again we didn't put that particular rule in the G league necessarily for testing at the NBA level it was to just increase pace and flow in the G league because it made sense for their product but obviously we have an eye on it as well we were more focused on the impact on flow on strategy on shooting percentages things like that it turns out it didn't it didn't shave as much time off a game as we had projected in part because players line up slower for the free throw when they know there's only one as opposed to two to to catch their breath substitutions take a little bit longer when they can't be done between the first and second free throw so there were some really good timing learnings for us we actually had a GM meeting you know you're in a half ago subcommittee of some GM saying like they actually they were skeptics but they like it they like the strategic element of it they like that you get back to action quicker and all of our fan research shows that free throws are pretty far down the list of things that fans like to see in an NBA game so I wouldn't rule out that we would consider something like that in the NBA I I am certainly personally a proponent of it but we're nowhere close to implementing that at the NBA level back when the in season turn of it and the play in turn of it began to kind of publicly come out is like okay these are things are going to be proposed to the owners and the governors and all that another idea that has I think kind of vanished from that list was the notion of maybe receding the playoffs during the conference finals I think the impetus for that if I recall was when the warriors in the rockets were clearly the two best teams and met in a holaceous conference finals and the finals were kind of a letdown has that kind of disappeared as the conferences have gotten balanced a little bit that one to me is less about conference balance and more about what you're trying to accomplish with your playoffs right and there's a lot of conversation well you always want your best two teams to play in the finals right which if that's your goal then you're saying you want a deterministic finals where the best two teams are always going to make it which undermines the first three rounds of the finals playoffs in the first place and in many years the perceived best two teams are not in fact the two teams with the best records and so yes you mentioned those warriors rockets years but there were a bunch of years where you know the calves were perceived as the best team in the eastern conference but didn't in fact have the best record Toronto Atlanta you know a other example so it never there's the sort of the the reality of a receipt never matched the perception of the benefit that you'd get from it and you'd be adding in additional travel considerations of potentially you know long distance conference finals to go with long distance finals for the coastal teams I had a couple of coastal teams call me and say this is a blood issue for us yeah or never and and similar similarly the one to 16 conference yeah less seating where we just take all the teams and seat on one to 16 the coastal teams like we're that we're going to the mat on that one yes so I would say look after studying that one extensively I think we we just ruled out that it was a a net positive change for the league and so it's it's not on the table and I I have not heard anyone suggest that in the last years open ended question game format scheduling season structure this is your life you live this every day what are a couple of like the absolute most out-of-the-box ideas that you've heard that actually got I don't want to say traction but some level of you know what like let's actually have a meeting about that and or at least talk about it in the league office like just what like would change to how the sport looks and feels I'll give you a few in different categories so rapid fire we've talked about widening the court so a 60 foot wide court instead of 50 foot you know players are faster more explosive stronger the the spacing of the game is different why are we constraining them to the 50 feet why are we crunching in the corners what would what would the game look like with 60 feet hard hard to do with coronerina infrastructure but what we we fantasize about that that possibility is an interesting draft idea a guy guy on my team at the league office is very passionate about this name Connor Jennings to debar from the Japanese baseball draft where instead of teams picking an order teams place a name essentially try to claim a player into a pot and then you draw randomly among all the teams that place to claim for that player so for example in this in this year with 14 lottery teams all 14 could put in Wemba Nyama and they'd all have a one and 14 chance of getting him but one team could play game theory and say you know what I think the other 13 are going to put Wemba Nyama I'm going to put Scoot or Brandon Miller and I'm then guaranteed to get that player because I'm the only one that put them in but then if 10 teams had that thought then all of a sudden there's only four putting Wemba Nyama and they have a one and four chance so it essentially turns the draft I gotta be I kind of Jennings I gotta go out for some drinks with the kind of Jennings you'd enjoy it it turns it basically turns the draft from like this nice linear thing to like a bowl of spaghetti and it would just be messy and crazy but it's an interesting one so we're not I don't think we're anywhere near that and then a third is actually talked about this on a Sloan panel a few years back to modify the season structure you'd actually divide the season into segments so say like eight segments of 10 games and there instead of wins there'd be points available based on winning games but they'd increase exponentially in each segment so for example your first win in a segment would be worth one point but your tenth win in a segment would be worth five points right so it would scale up so from a load management perspective you'd want to play hard every single game not just to earn that first point but to give yourself a chance that going ten and out or earn that maximum five point bonus at the end I've got a win incrementally to get up to that your first two wins are worth one you're next to win three wins are worth two so on and so on and what happens between segments we just we'd nothing it's just that at the end of the season the playoff standings are based on the points not the wins and so you try every game to get those maximum points because it had eight segments or eight legs to it we called it the octopus it got yeah but you know there would be a volcano of criticism if we ever tried to do any of these from some of our traditionalists so most of those end up on the cutting board octopus first of all octopus is delicious second of all did you ever see the documentary about the octopus I did not my octopus teacher it won the Academy Award it's about an octopus I'm gonna add it to my list it's about how smart octopi are all right very very smart and my wife's reaction to it well a lot of people had the reaction to it of well I don't want to eat octopus anymore because I didn't realize how smart it was my wife said I'm hungry I want some more octopus so it's delicious and they're very smart should watch the movie so the goal of it is this is all that's incentivizing more competition in the regular season you know more more interest randomness just all sorts of stuff but but again I you know I think between playing and lottery changes and in season I think we're pretty calm I want to go back to the connergeny spaghetti put your name in the put your name in the hat draft proposal and I want to jump off that like the lottery odds have we're about what do we five drafts in two five lotteries into the new revised odds six I think six I was the first that we're designed to not not randomize it but disincentivized being one of the very worst teams in the league from a 25% chance at the number one pick to what are they are 14 now three three the bottom three teams all have 14 and there's been some years where there's been jumping around and some years where you're reminded actually you know the 14% chance is still significant like you you have a floor the lowest you can fall is five if you're the worst team yet yeah and you still have a much better chance at finishing in the top three has that done has that done as that combined with the play internament are we at a place of competition that the league is happy with or could there be further tweaks in one direction or the other there could be at so lottery reform obviously came in first playing got at it after they work really nicely in concert because on the one hand there's no incentive to raise to the bottom right to your point yes you might want to be near the bottom but you don't have to be just the worst because there's no incremental or material incremental benefit yes you can be fifth instead of fact and I wrote about this when the reform came what we've really seen is the teams that sense an opportunity like Portland has done in the last couple years like oh can we get from nine to five right and so and so I'll get there right and so so the lottery piece took away that race to the bottom the play in but brought more teams into the fold for the playoffs the last two seasons we've had a record number of teams in contention for playoffs bots it laid into the season you know with with a week and a half two weeks left twenty six teams in contention this year twenty five last year can't count Dallas though I know you but I'll get there I mean and so and so those two things in concert actually worked really nicely because if more teams are in the mix and there's no incentive to raise to the bottom you get better competition and we've seen that but we still have this issue very targeted at the last few games where teams can still improve draft position sometimes without sacrificing play in positioning because obviously some of the play in teams won't ultimately make the playoffs and will be in the lottery so we've started to talk to the competition committee like should we be looking at different versions of a lottery that would modify that incentive but it's such a narrow part of the season that we're talking about so it doesn't need a wholesale reform I want you to clarify what that means because I've heard that there's been discussions about somehow if not incentivizing team the discussions about like the last ten days of the season yeah and how not ugly but how teams try to start manipulating the standings or they give up because whatever is there a way to make those last five games more competitive across the board like what would that actually be look I mean there's a there's a bunch of ways again some of which would probably fall in the two radical bucket but like as a very simple example you could just say we're not counting the last five games for lottery for lottery standings free to stand just like yeah and that we actually did that if you're calling the bubble season so the the team you know we obviously we had to freeze for the eight teams that weren't going to the bubble they weren't going to be playing additional games but we couldn't have teams go to the bubble lose a bunch of games miss the playoffs and somehow leapfrog one of the teams that wasn't even there so we had to freeze their standings as well so you could do that right which maybe wouldn't create a huge incentive to win but certainly would you know remove the that targeting what you know what like the incentivize losing those last few games manipulating the standing so there are simpler things like that but again now you're just moving the the bar right so maybe now you see the same behavior but in game 77 instead of 82 so there's no there's no obvious answer but I think it'll be something we come back to in the next couple years tell me about automated officiating and how far we're going to go in that direction in terms of technology making certain calls instead of the human referees yeah so we are really excited about this we announced a deal several months ago with Hawkeye who's going to become our our player tracking and officiating partner starting next season and the capability of that system is to capture what's called pose tracking so 29 points on the body you know joints hands head etc as well as the ball essentially in real time like sub-second latency and so when you have a system like that in addition to having tremendous benefit from a broadcast perspective and team basketball analytics and hopefully injury prevention because you can you know look at biomechanical movement there's real opportunity with automated officiating so what that means in the early years is we can train that system to identify automatically some of our black and white plays like gold tending out of bounds you know two versus three the ball hit the rim for a shot clock reset and we'll start to deploy that next season it's not the system in the in the early years is not going to be making the determinations and so as a as a first step there will be a feed coming into the replay center so if the goal tending is called team you know coach challenges the play referee goes to the replay center to review it the referee sitting in the replay center will now have an additional tool to help them get to the answer right if it's hard to tell if it was one frame or before or after the apex Hawkeye system can now guide that over time you could then use that to actually determine the outcome of the challenge so that what tennis used to do right at the US open for example where lines person calls makes the call player challenges it we go look at the screen we see if the ball was interrupt right system can do that in in the long run and then you could even go to the third step which is what the US open now has in tennis where there are no lines people at all and you're just calling those things directly in real time so the buzzer goes off when a goal tending occurs or ball goes out of bounds jumbo tron says you know blue blue ball right so those are opportunities and then of course you get into the well what if you want to use it for could you use it for fouls and travels and the more subjective calls and now you start to get into a question of well are you training it on the rules set or you training it on the way the game is called today you know Joe Borgia you want a former referee and referee operations executive used to say if you called the game exactly literally as it is in the rule book you'd have what we call basketball ballet where there's no contact right so you'd need to calibrate a system like that if you wanted to try to use it for for those types of calls to map to the way we do call the game but that's so far off and we expect that for as long as you and I will be watching basketball we will probably have human officials making the more judgment based calls but theoretically those possibilities are out there I forgot about one of my one of my pet issues will we ever go back to best of five in the first round no oh that was easy why why why I just like to give me a little randomness give me a little oh you didn't like you didn't like an eight seed and a seven seed winning and seven that's true seven games they did win a seven games in the conference finals that's true I just that the playoffs are really long yeah they're really really long we think we think volume is an asset for us there's there's a lot of great basketball being played throughout the year all right so no it's it's a no that's fine yeah have we not have we missed anything about the play in tournament that you think we should hit in season I mean the in season tournament sorry the play in tournament is the play in tournament set is this just the way it's going to be yeah I mean if there are ever a reason to change it you would certainly be open to that yeah it seems to be working to yeah it seems to be I think we would more likely visit revisit the kind of lottery pieces around play in and the you know the connection between the two but as for the play in format itself I think we're in a good spot or anything about the in season tournament we missed no it's exciting I think it's going to be and it's the NBA cup the trophy is the NBA cup yes and it's called the NBA cup no it's called the NBA in season tournament NBA in season tournament for the NBA cup okay so no sponsors yet no you know how I feel about that most of our big events are sponsored I know it's true it helps you know we get the added promotion visibility to these things they activate against it it's a good thing all right Evan wash wait a second executive vice president of basketball strategy and analytics and analytics so close for the NBA thank you for your time I know you've worked a long time to get this over the finish line now we get to see it work in real life that's pretty exciting I'm excited thank you sir thanks