Marks and Le Batard

The Low Post is presented by Amazon Music. Did you know you could be listening to this episode of The Low Post, ad-free on Amazon Music? And now The Low Post. Welcome to The Low Post podcast on Monday morning after Father's Day, which will always be remembered in The Low Household as the day Bradley Beale, the era of mediocrity in Washington, 8th seed by Heller Highwater, playing Kings of the East, is over. Bradley Beale, armed with the only no trade clause in the NBA, an absolutely ridiculous, insane piece of business by the previous Washington Wizards regime, used the no trade clause to aim himself directly to Phoenix to team up with Kevin Durant and Devon Booker, a new big three in Phoenix. Deandre Aiton remains on the Suns in return. The Wizzards of Washington, with their beautiful pink jerseys receive Chris Paul for now, I would be very surprised if Chris Paul plays a second for the Washington Wizards. Landry Shamit, the just wears out his goodwill with every team he's on, an unknown number of second-round picks. I believe the Suns had up to six to trade. It might be damn near all of them. There may still be a first-round pick swap or two, which is a Byzantine thing to begin with. Obviously, this is a crushing disappointment of a return for the Wizards that has nothing to do with Michael Winger and Will Dawkins and Travis Schlenk and their new regime and everything to do with Ted Leonsis and the green lighting the previous regime were asking them to do whatever it takes to keep Bradley Beale happy and Mark Bartelstein, whose son Josh Bartelstein is the CEO of the Suns and will get to that connection to Bradley Beale's agent. Got a goddamn no-trade clause that I think any analysis of this deal just has to start there. It's the most important variable in the thing. It's the reason he's with the Suns and not with anybody else. It's the reason there was not like a classic trade war for Bradley Beale. The no-trade clause is the whole thing. The Suns now have these three guys who, you know, all shooting, mid-range shooting, overlapping skill sets can Bradley Beale find his three-point shot again. I think he can. They had a fascinating choice here of how to proceed in this offseason and we can talk about that. The offseason is here, Bobby Marks. This could have ripple effects for Damien Lillard, for Chris Paul, for the Miami Heat, for the Brooklyn Nets, for just lots and lots of people. How are you? I'm good. And as we speak, Bradley Beale still has a true no-trade clause. That maybe carries with him to Phoenix. Hey, and that was an issue with when this is a three-pronged negotiation between Mark Bartleson and Bradley Beale, the Wizards, and whoever wanted Bradley Beale, and I know for sure that at least a couple of teams, if not all of them, made the ask, hey, would you wave the no-trade? Would you eliminate the no-trade clause if we got you? And that was a non-starter. He was keeping the no-trade clause. And good for him, by the way, he's got it. Why not keep it? It's a big deal. He gets to pick where he lives and where his family lives. That's a huge thing. He should keep it. Oh, yeah, definitely. You can't say that if he was going to Phoenix and the cell would have been, hey, you've got DeRan and Booker and we'll continue the bill. Who knows? Two years from now, who knows where this thing goes? Trying to get off $53, $57 million down the road will be extremely challenging. But he has it. There was no need for him to give up the no-trade. It was one of those deals where we've talked about it that when you look at the no-trade and the contract, it just shrinks the marketplace. I mean, that's the reality of it here. Well, from Bradley Bill's perspective, it expands the marketplace to anywhere you want to go. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, and looking back on my notes, the one thing, I probably underestimated Phoenix, like I just didn't think they would basically do a cannibal off the deep end here and say, here, take it all, you know, and be able to keep the Andre and then basically give up, you know, we'll talk about the picks and all that stuff. But man, what a blockbuster to start the off season. It's a blockbuster. What was your first reaction from, I guess from, let's start with the sons because the Wizards, we know what they're doing. It's over. They're ripping the bandaid off. We could see porzingis opt in and get traded. I went through the fake porzingis trades with you in Gavoni last week. We could see Kuzma gone. Like, there's, we know what they're doing. And they're aiming for, in very Wizards fashion, they're aiming for the top of the draft, the year after the top of the draft was historically incredible. Go Wiz. But it needed to happen and it's happened. First, first got instinctual reaction about the sons. Second apron. That was my first reaction, like the T-shirts made up. Second apron for the foreseeable future. I mean, they basically like, basically took the CBA and gave it the middle finger. I mean, that's basically how they, that's basically how they did it. I mean, that was my initial reaction here. But then when I, when I kind of decompressed was, okay, if they hadn't done the trade and they just waived and stretched Chris Paul, then you were basically looking at the mid, the non-tax middle level at 12 to and in the veteran minimum to build that eros to here. Now you trade him and you replace him with Bradley Beale and you have the veteran minimum and all the other stuff's going to come down to road. All these harsh restrictions and you second apron. That's really fair to worry about next offseason here. But yeah, my initial reaction was a second apron and then my, my, my second reaction was that this is who the, this is who the sons are. Like there's no more picks out there likely to trade or swap or this is kind of who they are. And then I guess my third reaction, I'm expanding myself is what does this mean for DeAndre 8? That's my, that's my third reaction. Poor DeAndre 8. I don't know why so he's making a lot of money. Just does anyone want DeAndre 8? Do the sons want DeAndre 8? And the Pacers offered him all this money. I don't think they want DeAndre 8 anymore. If they did, you might be on the Pacers by now. But anyway, I don't want to talk about DeAndre 8 yet. First of all, you just came up with a great niche merchandising idea. If the sons, the thunder did not listen to me about the door license plate that I have in my TV backdrop, but no one made it. They didn't sell it. If the sons made like 500 orange aprons and they just put Durant salary, Beale salary and Booker salary on them in white lettering. And then there had the little sunburst logo below it. A hundred people would buy it. I would buy it. I am now that I'm a suburban loser dad. I am a C minus on the grill. C minus started off as an F didn't know how to do anything. I'm up to a C minus. I would wear that apron. I, sons, free idea. I would 20 bucks, 20 bucks in apron. They, they, they, it would cost two bucks to make. You'd buy it. Oh, I would definitely buy it. I would, I would, I would, I actually would probably frame it and put it behind me when I'm home when we can show it, you know, I mean, they basically listen. Like the rules came into place for a reason. So the, the, the, the three Mac stars can't join itself. What, what happened was that the loophole, there's like a, we got like a, we had a two week window or a loophole. And then we have another year loophole before everything else really comes to a crashing halt here and give them credit. They took advantage of it. They knew that what they had wasn't good enough. Who knows what they, I mean, they got a lot of work to do as far as filling out the roster here. But, um, you know, we'll see. Okay. So let's start basic sons. So you, you, you outlined it. They had a choice. If they, with, with or without Chris Paul, their choice was essentially, let's say without Chris Paul. Let's say they stretch Chris Paul. Just, we don't want to be in the Chris Paul business anymore. We can't find a tradable stretch. Durant, Aiton, Booker, Shamit, Paul's money, Pains money, Ish Wayne writes money. They're already at like 135 million bucks. Just with that. Add on some minimums. They're up to 140. So yeah, they have the tax mid level. And so I think they calculated two things here. Um, number one, if we went that route and we used the tax mid level or the non-tax mid level, the big mid level to get a player or two, we are now hardcapped. We could not go over $169 million dollar payroll. This coming season. They're about hard. No one wants to be hardcapped. The hard cap sucks. It restricts you. Opportunities come and go. You can't do it. Um, and they just said, you know what? Rather than that, let's just not be hardcapped anywhere. Let's just blow past the second apron. Yes, we can't use our exceptions. That's fine. We'll have other exceptions we can use. Let's just ignore that. Blow past it. Not get ourselves in this pickle where we have a ceiling that if we hit it, we're done. We can't do anything. I think that absolutely was there thinking. And underneath that or maybe even above it is, I said this from the beginning. The suns did not have enough good players to lose one of them. Chris Paul for the unknown of exceptions, who 12.2 million dollars worth of salary you can use. He's too good for that. They're too thin for that. So I understand why people are panning the deal for the suns. Brad Beale has not had a by his standards very good last three seasons. He certainly has not had a very good healthy last three seasons. Um, he's a three time also. I was made in all certain since 2019, I believe. Um, he's on this massive contract that pays up 46 million, 50 million, 54 million, 57 million for the next four years. That contract I think is the number one reason why they Miami Heat do not have Bradley Beale on their team right now. We'll talk about them later. Um, to understand the criticisms, to me, they stared at that scenario of we could have Chris Paul, we could have exceptions in place of Chris Paul that might get us, I don't know, whoever your version of like Jeff Green plus whatever is, or we could turn Chris Paul into Bradley Beale flaws in all. I think that scenario is clearly the best of those three scenarios. And yes, they'll have trouble filling out the roster. They're going to need to use minimums. They're going to need to use bird rights. They're going to do that in very creative ways. They already were in that kind of same jail. The choice was made with the rant. That was when the choice was made. The choice was we're breaking up this feel good team that made the finals two years ago. We're going all in on a top heavy team that's going to have us in cap jail. They're already in jail. They didn't even double down on that choice. They just made the next logical leap from that choice. You had it right on the head. I mean, once they went all in in February with the rant. And when you added with eight in contract, you know, those the three players, your options were basically boiled down to, you know, that's why waving him, although that was probably that was always the last resort. And that's why it was going to be taken up until June 28 because that was out of all your options. That was probably the least one you wanted to do. And you wanted to go out and try to use that contract to bring you back either multiple players or try to bring you back a star player. And then it's a perfect storm. I mean, Bradley Beale doesn't have it. If Bradley Beale doesn't have a no trade clause, I think it changes, you know, I think there's certain other teams that now join the join join the fray here. Now it would be then it would be up to the wizards. If they feel like do we do we get the equity clause to Bradley Beale because he's been he's been a good soldier here. Or do we do it for the best interest in the organization? It's similar to what probably it's going to happen maybe in Portland with Damien Lillard here, but that didn't happen. That didn't happen because it had no trade clause. Well, there's a 0% chance he's on the Phoenix Suns. If he doesn't have a no trade clause, 0%. I mean, that's the only reason the Suns are in the game. Let's talk basketball before we get into the other mechanics of this. How do you like the Suns? Now they've got to fill out the roster. So, you know, right now they have Durant Beale, Booker, Aiden, Payne, maybe, Wayne Wright, maybe. I do think that we are going to see them overpay Jacolandil, maybe overpay Tory Craig, maybe overpay Bismak Bianbo, maybe even overpay Darius Basley or not overpay, but pay. All the guys they have legit bird rights on. And it wouldn't surprise me, Mr. Marks, in an era in which starting next year, the Suns as a second apron team will only be able to take back a hundred exact salary matching in trades. Like there's not going over by more than 250K, I think. They can't trade $20 million with a salary and take back 24. They can take back 20 or less. Would not surprise me of some of those deals that I just mentioned, some of those free agents get resigned to dollars that are going to be exact matches. The best they can project of like what the mid-level exception will be. They're going to try and finagle all sorts of things like that so they can give themselves some trade flexibility that way. So they'll have some guys on their team. Some guys will come back. Some ring chases will come. But I want to ask you first blush, just Beale, Durant, Booker, Aiden. And I don't think they have anything imminent for aid. That doesn't mean they're not going to trade it. And because similarly to what I just said, I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, starting next year, not only can the Suns cannot aggregate their own players in trades. They so they can't take a 20 and a 10. They can't take back players who are aggregated in trades. Correct. That is incorrect. That's incorrect. Okay. I put that out yesterday and I talked to a bunch of teams just to get a more clarification. They are not allowed to aggregate Aiden's money. So they can't aggregate Aiden and they can't trade a million dollars campaign for a $29 million. So for this is for next off season. Yes. For they are allowed to take back a 20 and a 15. Okay. So so so what I was going to say is so they can down the line. They they are not under a a strict timeline of if I wanted to break eight and up into three players via trade, they can keep doing that beyond this season. Yeah. They're not on that heat. The heat timeline is different because we had talked about it where there were faced any aggregation because of heroes money, right? Like they needed if they ever if Damien Lillard say next year became available in the heat work second apron team, they weren't allowed to add hero and a 20 million dollar player and aggregate that there. That's so that's a little bit of a different timeline with Aiden. There really is no timeline for him. I mean, you don't have to. You're not forced to do anything. The only timeline is that for starting July 1st, it's 110% as far as money coming back. Right now, we're still in that 125% boat. And then for when you're a second apron team is that, you know, you're not taking. Yeah, you're not taking money, you know, more money back in a deal there. But my point is if they want to trade Aiden for three players, yeah, you can do it. They will be able to do that beyond this season. Yes. So they're under no time crunch to deal Aiden like now. Correct. Break them up because they do face a fascinating decision because everything any team in the Western conference does, including this trade has to be done with an eye on the Denver nuggets. And you need to either make a choice without necessarily a choice, but your choice is something like we either really care about getting a center who can guard your catch or we invest our resources elsewhere and try to just shoot yoke it's it's out shoot the nuggets and make yoke it's cover in space and go five out. And or and then we played jock Landel 18 minutes of game to just rough him up. We don't we we go all in on shooting spread the floor. That's the only path we have. And that's a decision that I think Aiden is going to be involved in because Aiden until this season had done okay on yoke itch. I think yoke itch has reached unguardability at this point. And I know you said this. I agree with you. The Denver nuggets are the favorites to win the Western conference now and almost regardless of anything else that happens in the off season. I don't think the sons are better than them. I do however think the sons as of now enter the season is the second best team in the Western conference. But I before I go all in on the basketball stuff. I want your take on the fit between the big three. And if you include eight in the big three point five. I think we what we saw when Chris got hurt in the in the playoffs here you're going to see booker more at point right. I think that's probably what the assumptions going to be that you he'll probably be your pre mean you know based on you know primarily ball handler. So now that you know that creates you know with with Bradley you know I know we've we've talked a lot about you know certainly his health and that's going to be a big part of this here. But there was a regression in in Washington the last two years. Is it a result of you know basically kind of a lack of point guard the last two years you basically had money more is here. I mean his numbers you know it's catching shoot numbers came down a little bit here. Listen there's a lot of there's a lot of firepower here. And you know the three players even at Devin Booker to the mix here have not been durable. And it's going to be you know as you said it's going to be high level as far as who else what other fits around there. But I'm fine. Well I'm I'm comfortable with the fit. It's it's you know but I just need to see kind of what else is there. My concern with Booker too a little bit of if he if he is you know if if you're basically going Booker Durant Biel eight in and then you know another wing is Booker going to be chasing cards you know points you know. So we're a little bit of a wear and tear factor here. But at least from a from a fifth standpoint for me it's about health. And what was the last two years of Biel on a decline a blip or is it a bigger thing. So I like the fit way more than not way more but more than what appears to be the consensus. And again I understand oh here we go mid-range media. Oh they're recreating the nets. How did that work out? Oh Bradley Biel's three point shot has fallen off. Oh that's not going to be great. Oh defense and defense they are going to need to find a way to be a credible defense credible. Just credible. Just like the nuggets found a way to be a credible defense credible. And Biel has been a bad defensive player now for a while. So I understand all that. I think offensively this seems going to be dynamite. And Bradley Biel is going to be one of those guys who if he's healthy and he said that the injuries the last few years have been like ham stringy stuff that makes you a on one hand nervous on the other hand like well now he's going to actually play for a team that has something to play for. I don't know how much of those injuries were just like you know we're going down the tubes anyway this year. I think he's going to be one of those guys who suddenly looks awesome as a second option and more pointedly a third option. And there is a clear hierarchy on this team. He is the third option and it is not close. I think frankly it's Devon Booker's team. The team belongs to Devon Booker and it should belong to Devon Booker. And they will have to sort out how to play. We saw the chemistry was kind of scatter shot. They didn't really figure out how to play off of each other. Paul Booker Durant last year how to get the ball moving from side to side when you use Durant as a screener as a ball handler. Now they have a whole season to figure that out. I think Biel will look awesome as a second or third option. And again the alternative was what exactly they turned Chris Paul into Bradley Biel. You're a Bradley Biel's numbers on catch and shoot three pointers for the last nine seasons percentage 40% this is go in order from most recent to past 40% 30% yeah 39 38 37 43 42 39 42 42 42 those 43s and 42s were playing with John Wall. Those 43s and 42s were when his three pointers skewed catch and shoot instead of the last two or three years when they skewed pull up because the Wizards were bad and he was effectively their point guard. I think he's going to shoot the lights out not the light. I think he's going to shoot really well from three and the team will be a really good offensive team. And for all the clowning of like oh they're just recreating the KD nets with three high usage ball handlers. The KD nets were fucking awesome when they played they were unstoppable and only injuries and just blah I only want to get into the blue the doors off of Milwaukee and game one and two. Like that if that's like if that's what we're saying was that was a bad outcome for reasons that didn't have anything to do with basketball and they didn't even really need to be a good defensive team their offense was so good now the differences and this is what I'm interested in. The difference is this three pronged monster does not have a passer anywhere near James Hardin's level. Booker is a good passer. Beals an okay passer who can also move off the ball although a lot of his off ball movement was like dribble handoff stuff with marching or top back in the day and all that kind of stuff. He can come off pin downs and do all that that you need and derands a good passer. Hardin is an all-time passer and part of the reason that big three was so unstoppable offensively was there was a clear like this is the guy that's going to handle the ball the most KD will handle it the second most Kyrie will just kind of find his points and transition. He became a good cutter. He did his Kyrie stuff. That's what I'm most interested in because the nets are not to be clowned as an example of what the sons could be offensively defensively the sons have a lot of questions. I do think the playmaking question and how they ring enough passing out of this is an interesting one because there is no hard in here and by the way the hard and defeat next thing was never a thing that was never going to be a real thing. No I agree I mean I never saw I never saw a clear path you know for hard they also have they also have a trade exception too that they have access to which who knows I mean it's just another tool for them but you're right I mean that there is a difference between these this Phoenix team and this Brooklyn team is the you know certainly the Hardin factor. I think to fit offensively is going to be fine I think people are kind of overthinking it now defensively it's going to be defense defense health those are all fair questions and the nuggets the nuggets are the nuggets are watching this I mean I guarantee you I know the nuggets are watching this like yes they're in the afterglow but they're watching this like all right you guys want it like you guys just want to like have no depth and no chemistry and three due to need and want to ball like cool we built our team pretty carefully we like it we're not scared one bit of you and I actually like again all all both these teams healthy depending on how the suns fill it out the the nuggets to me are better they're they're still the best team. No I agree I mean they I mean they played together I mean that's the big thing and I think you know the Bruce Brown decisions which is you know the likelihood is that he declines that option but he you know hey he might come back on a discount who knows you know you never know but I yeah I'm not ready to put I'm not ready to put Phoenix up there ahead of the head of Denver just because of you know what what it looks like right now I need to see what the roster looks like I need a sample of games here I need to see this team get healthy listen for I for the playoffs you roll this team out and you just put you know spare parts I love it but as you said like you got to get there right and you got to get there in one piece and you got to get there as a you know and as a pretty good seed also I do think the Bruce Brown thing becomes a little bit more pressing for the nuggets now because they do need as many perimeter defenders as they can throw at these guys and Bruce Brown's very good and particularly on the ball and he's going to have a market at the mid-level exception for multiple years at worst and maybe more than that he needs to get paid this is his time and their only route is really to just do the Bobby Portis thing where like you sign a one plus one at whatever the most they can offer him is which is you can probably tell me off the top of your head it's like 120% of every 7.8 million and then then you wink wink this is we never have this conversation but you decline your option and then we resigned you at the at the full early burden on how well the sudden did I get Walmart stock in my my account all of a sudden and in the meantime when you when you meet with him now you're like hey man what's your favorite wine like what can we do for you you know I can get you the best table at this restaurant over here like you know pick up a dry cleaning did you know youtube tv is more than cable for less than cable that's right youtube tv has no long-term contracts are hidden fees and it even lets you catch up to the live game with key plays with a lineup of over 100 channels you can watch live tv like cable signing up is simple get started in minutes so what are you waiting for try it free today at youtube dot com slash NBA 23 NBA 2 3 new users only terms apply cancel anytime hey navi get's dear oh no how long do two weeks come hey does this go faster before you think yeah hopefully you'll also get a job that you love then come to luftansa group over 50 Ausbildungsberufe von IT übertechnik bis zum kokpit fly big off luftansa group on korea's let's talk about the heat who were I thought the most logical landing place for Bradley Biel and in the end I think they kept their powder dry I really think that's what you never as you re-creating your on the phone all night trying to figure out who was off for the win and how were they offered were they offered what's an offer where they actually offered where were they just bandied about in the end my best guess and please disagree with me if you think I'm wrong please my best guess is they looked at Tyler heroes contract so okay 27 29 31 33 Biel 46 51 54 57 Biel 7 years older than Tyler heroes still young Tyler heroes still so young and everyone's down on him because the heat made the finals without him and I think the heat to the best of my knowledge looked in the mirror and said is Bradley Biel 30 million dollars and seven years older better than Tyler hero and if not and if Washington doesn't want our long terms other long term salary anyway and Washington clearly wanted to just get this money off the books and move on then why don't we just keep our powder dry for the for the next wave of guys and maybe I don't think anybody knows this for certain I really do not think anybody knows what Damien Lillard is going to do but maybe it's Damien Lillard in four days maybe not I don't again I don't think anybody knows but that's my best read on the Miami situation what have you heard no that's that's why we started to hear Victor Old Depot Kyle Lowry right it went from hero as the main guy and then whatever else Duncan Robinson for example as far as to make the money work from what I've what you know that Miami certainly was looking to get off to keep that hero contract to get off the expirings they would have cost them probably the 18th pick in the draft and might have cost them something down the road whether it been maybe a protected future one I didn't see a scenario where Miami can go get Bradley Biel and then all the son of Damien Lillard became available enough I just didn't oh no there was no waiting there was no there was you know they don't have financially you can yeah they don't have enough there's no none of draft equity here and I think for the heat they were hey if this is this is what we'll do not including hero if they don't do it great we'll just wait and we'll kind of sit in the holding pattern if Lillard becomes available and who knows you know Dame Lillard becomes available if Dame Lillard wants to become available right I mean that's that the end that that's what how I look at it um this is what we have to offer whether it be hero and three ones and whatever salary that that comes with it yeah I mean look and I actually think it a weird way Biel is a is a cleaner fit in Miami than he is in Phoenix because Miami has defenders to kind of prop him up on that end of the floor and they need badly another reliable ball handler who can shoot and run pick and roll with BAM who's never going anywhere I mean BAM is BAM might end up being a heat lifer um but they didn't get them and as for Dame look it's smoke screen season we talked last week about Portland's dilemma with the number three pick in the draft right and the idea that if they just make the pick that what that means Dame's out they have to trade Dame Dame I'll ask out and the only way to keep Dame is to trade the pick and whether whatever veteran they can get for that pick plus Amford assignments plus whatever else they have to put in that's the vehicle to keeping Dame or if there's a third path where they say hey look this is a generational prospect we got to take them Dame we will try to placate you by resigning Jeremy Grant by doing x y and z free agency by trading use of Nurghitch for this person give us until the trade deadline let's see how the team is maybe you'll end up really liking it we think the west is kind of open maybe we'll be like the fourth seed in January February you'll be okay I don't know how realistic that is I don't know that anybody knows how realistic that is I don't know what Damien Lillard wants I don't know what his reaction will be on Thursday if the Blazers just take Brandon Miller or Scoot Henderson and are like hey we're done that's it there's no Pascal Siac on there's no Zion Williamson there's no Michele Bridges there's no OGN and OB there's no whoever you want sorry we just couldn't pass up this opportunity it's better for our franchise but stick with us I don't know how realistic that is not only that Mr. Marks Damien Lillard doesn't have a no trade clause he has a lot of years left on his contract can my I don't know if Miami wins a trade war for Damien Lillard they might because point guard is such a loaded position around the league because so many of the teams that are in win now mode have already traded all their stuff and so many of the teams that are not in total win now mode don't want a 32 year old point guard who's gonna make $60 million in three years they may well hero plus whatever plus three first that may be all it takes but there'll be other teams they'll be other teams what is your best synopsis of the lay of the land at the number three pick right now well I mean I think the lay of the land right now certainly it's going to be there you know either Miller scoop but that mean that comes into there there's not a deal out there as a Monday and we still have three or four days for Portland to move off that right it's not in that certainly I don't know if it does change I don't know of Zion Williamson becomes available I don't know Brandon England becomes available one of those you know one of those two players here I think I think you hit it right on the head that like if you're the trailblazers you're basically picking the best available and then you're having that you're going to have that conversation with him saying hey let's see we're Shane Sharp looks we're gonna bring back Jeremy Grant let's see we're let's see what happens with Scoot Henderson and then if you want we can move we can go in a different direction but as you said like he doesn't have a no trade clause like Bradley Beale his the question would be how much he's built up so much equity do you almost treat it that way but here's the thing if it came down to all right we're gonna make a deal we're gonna move make a move if Miami comes in and let's say team like Brooklyn comes in and he wants to go to Miami Brooklyn second choice and Brooklyn just says here you know what we're gonna give you a couple of these Phoenix picks we'll give you that Dallas pick we'll give you three unprotected and whatever and that is the better offer for for the trailblazers what direction do you go in do you take the best offer or you do go do you want to take the team that he wants to go to and I think the Brooklyn nets who are on my list of of Beale teams if I can find my list of Beale teams or Dame teams Dame teams Dame teams I think they would have a frothy internal debate about whether going all in and I mean all in like if you can go if you can get them half in that's a different story but all in for Damien Lillard you pair him with McHale Bridges and Nick Claxon and Cam John whatever's left over I don't know what goes out if it's all picks and young players whatever so presumably somebody who's not Beale Bridges but is also good is going out in that trade just for salary reasons if nothing else well I don't even want to say the name Ben Simmons I just can we just not do the shirt I know everyone's making fun of it but it's true can we just not do the shirtless Instagram posts like just nobody cares nobody cares nobody's nobody's convinced nobody's convinced like I think they would have a real internal debate like is that is that a smart move or or having pivoted from this era of disaster and accumulated so many picks can we can we slow go it a little bit I think that would be a big internal debate as for the number three pick I don't know I don't know what Portland is going to do the Zion noise is so all over the place that I I've just kind of I've in the mode where I've talked to many people and I've just given up trying to figure out like are they actually maybe going to trade them are they not going to trade them I I know give only said his indication was no I've heard that same stuff but then there's all this other buzz going I I have no idea what's going on anymore I have no idea what Toronto is going to do you know I wouldn't turn my nose up at Pascal Siacum though that dude's good he's got to pay a lot of money but he's good and I think he can play with Jeremy Grant and an OB it's a good player everyone keeps waiting for him to get great hasn't happened yet bridges that's a hand in glove fit those are all good players I just don't I don't know Zion is I don't even know how to value Zion like is he more value Zion playing 60 games a year forget 80 60 is like far in a way more valuable than the number three pick it's not close Zion now I don't even know how to value him he's played 25 games a year for four years I don't know how to project him I don't have access to his medical records if I'm trading for him I'll maybe I'll get that at the last minute I just don't even know what to do with that I don't know what's the it's just chaos right now well I mean I yeah I mean how you value him is that you're basically it's a it's a gut it's a gut decision right it's a gut decision based on what you saw in the 114 games it's a gut decision based on what you saw in November December when he played and he was top five probably in the league at that you know at when he played um you know we've talked it's I as I said this I said it this morning and I said it I've said it the last couple days here like I'm for me I'm not concerned about the contract right like I'm not concerned like oh my god we got 194 million dollars and this guy doesn't play because there's so much in when we've talked about there's so much stipulations in there right I mean there's got it's it's one run of the great NFL type contracts where if a team had to get out of it they eventually could down the road um but what does that say when you just traded the number three pick for it right it's the opportunity it's the opportunity cost yeah it's the opportunity cost here um but yeah it is a man you better have some conviction that this guy is going to be out there if you're going to go in that direction see I come from me is intriguing and I don't like I think if you get if you flipped him for three you get him there him being an unexpiring I think you can in Lillard it is there that's a guy that I'm I would be comfortable you know certainly resigning um you know there um but yeah I mean that's a three's got value it's just a matter of like who's that who's going to be that guy that you would actually move for yeah there's so much noise now that I can no longer figure out with any certainty what is going to happen and what Damien Lillard will say if the blazers just keep the pick or where he would even want to go well he said it I mean like you know I think we've talked about it like when he did that interview like he he said it like it's always the grass doesn't always greener on the other side right so it's a matter of like who is coming back and what that roster looks like and if it was you know certainly if it was in the you know if it's if it's Brooklyn let's say and it's just a pick package right it's a pick package and it includes like a bunch of expirings um just to get off his money that maybe he's more appealing same with Miami if it's I mean we already talked that's hero here so that's the other factor in it is that and but he does as we said he doesn't have a no trade I'll tell you Lillard Butler Bam would scare the crap out of me if I were any team of the Eastern Conference scare the now end of heat are going to have to pay a ginormous tax bill no exceptions the whole thing you know see if they can hang on to Caleb Martin in that kind of transaction but that big three is a real big three as a scary big three um the nicks have all the goods to make any of these deals and I think they they stay they sniffed around Biel for sure I don't know what what did you hear about how involved the Nixor with Biel yeah I mean you know considering that they have their pick right I think that was something that would have been in play they have the wizards pick that's protected um they for them it's just a it's a matter of like it's a it's certainly a cost issue when you've got quickly coming up um you know you still have um eventually you're going to probably extend Brunson down the road when when when Biel's making 53 57 million dollars here but I think if there was a if from their perspective if there was a low risk move and we didn't have to give up everything you know we go out and do it but now the thing is that all these picks that they have whether it be their own in the future and they've got a Milwaukee pick that's protected the wizard pick probably is now has is the least valuable out of these picks here I don't know I don't think that probably conveys at all um and you're just going to want to turn it into a second I didn't get this and again there's just so much noise around all this I didn't get the sense that the nicks were like really in the derby at the end and again it's a derby that Bradley Biel controls so that the end there's only one team and it's the team he picks I don't know what the nicks would have given up I don't know the exact price and they weren't in it enough for me to really dig so hard into that I honestly think Brunson is so good that I wouldn't go hard for Biel and I wouldn't go hard for Lillard like I don't really get the New York Lillard thing like Brunson is good enough the last time we saw him he was scoring 40 points on a bomb ankle against the heat in the playoffs like every game it seemed like I'm just I got my chips I like my team I think we're a good team playoff team solid team I'm saving my chips for others so I don't I we look I'm not going to go through all the names I just guard small guard is not the place I'm going if if and I don't feel the need to like upgrade from jail in Brunson at cost if I think you're talking about a Brunson for like I just I'm fine the way they are there's always going to be somebody else there's always going to be right now it's it's Biel and maybe Lillard and eventually it's going to be somebody else and it might be somebody better and that's how you have to look at it where you may it's like you know it's like Gong Christmas shopping right you want all the toys but eventually there's going to there is going to be a better toy next year when I was at the combine in Chicago Doc Rivers got fired and I wrote the night of the lottery there was already buzz going around that that had flipped not flipped but changed the equation in James Hardin's calculus about like well maybe the noise was already starting like okay pump the brakes a little bit on the Houston thing the brakes have now been pumped like slam down around the league to the point that I bet if you pulled 50 front office executives a majority of them would guess he's going back to Philly I don't know what the hell is going to happen we'll see I mean James who the hell knows but if James Hardin goes back to Philly I don't even know if this is feasible would you at least call Portland and say Harris and Maxi do they even have a pick in 2030 I mean is Maxi I guess there's a two-pronged questioner is Maxi already too good for Philly to move for a 30-something guard when they already have it another 30-something guard and defense is going to be a problem with any Lillard Hardin combo or flip it around is Maxi the best thing Portland might get offered among all the deals we're talking about for Lillard if Lillard indeed and again we don't know exactly we don't know what he's going to do that's an interesting one to me I don't even know if it would work on either so it's almost like the Gilders Alexander trade for Paul George without the picks almost like that kind of like young player rookie contract um you're going to have to pay him Maxi he's not making yeah he's he's up this uh he's extension of rule this off season he's restrictive for agent next off season so eventually you were going to have to pay him and that's that's what you I mean those are your cards right that's all that that's what your cards are right now I mean I I said last week I wouldn't there's no way you put him in a bill deal this but Dame's a different Dame with Hardin coming back is a different conversation um I don't I haven't thought everyone loves the Jalen Brown for Damian Lillard deal everyone the media loves to speculate about that one I haven't thought so hard about that one because I understand Jalen Brown's now extension eligible we have we Boston knows more internally about what he wants and he has agency in this whole process um I just have never loved the idea of that trade for Boston I just don't like trading a guy who's like Jalen Brown has his warts and he was like borderline all NBA I had him in at the end because of injuries to other players but he's still 25 or 26 or whatever he is I don't I don't know if that's the deal that catapult to me if I'm Boston like passed my issues that now maybe it is because while all my issues are offensive execution and this guy's an all-time crunch time killer but I just that one has never felt great to me from the Celtics perspective now it's it never felt is everyone loves to just boom done cleaned it up that ball I don't I don't love it I don't even love it from Portland's perspective that much honestly no because it's not I mean what else is there anything else coming with him I think if I think if you're Portland if if you ever you know if you ever was moved I think it's it's got to be come almost like I guess comparable to what the jazz went through where you're kind of trying to reset in the middle where you're getting a player on a deep and a good contract whether it been in the case of whether was marking in there and then you're getting the picks right you're getting the three or four you know unprotected ones speaking of agency and a player agency I do want to talk about the Bartelstein connection between Mark Bartelstein agent and Josh Bartelstein who's the CEO of the sons I think that's his title CEO of the sons yeah father son Josh is the son I think that connection absolutely helped grease the wheels for this trade like that's just how the business works human connections sometimes it's most of the time it's GM's who like each other and have had beers together or used to work on the same team and now they've ascended to be GM's they talk there's no question it helped but this whole like I saw this whole thing when I would pop in on Twitter about how oh here we go the Bartelstein's are colluding to manipulate Bradley Beale to go to the sons I'm like dude Bradley Beale is gonna go with like don't reduce Bradley Beale to like upon in some agent and son game Bradley Beale has been in a legal long time he's very very smart he's gonna pick where he wants to go he's not gonna be like oh I'm good you guys want me to go here I'll go here like I didn't that's not how this happened Bradley Beale was recruited by the sons wanted to go to the sons and pick to the sons because that's where he wanted to be I didn't like the connection clearly helped it helped start the conversation and get it going but it I didn't like how it was framed in some corners no you're right I mean the connection definitely have no now it's it would be a bigger issue and it would be collusion if Bradley Beale did not have a no trade clause and a team like Miami or Brooklyn or New York came in came in with a whopping offer right just said like we're gonna give you three ones and young players and Phoenix said you know what or Washington said you know what we're gonna do it to the team that's got second round picks and expiring contracts then that would raise the red flag it just wasn't just wasn't the case yet the no the no trade clause is the whole thing it's the whole thing and it's a disaster for the Wizards there five years late at three years late at minimum trading Bradley Beale years late the no trade clause is the is the whole thing yeah three years late on this and I understood why they resigned them last year I did not understand certainly the no trade because you were giving him 50 more than another team and to add that in there and we knew there was eventually going to be a day when we were going to be faced with this because I just never saw that the the writing on the wall where this was going to be a 51 team I saw the vomit on the wall can I tell you something else while we're here that grants my gears totally unrelated to any of this I'm gonna get into this more later I'm gonna monitor I'm gonna monitor the landscape I haven't liked how I haven't liked this I got a bone to pick with Perk specifically oh here you go and I picked it with him on TV last week but you want to can I tell you a funny story before you get into yours so my my my fortune you're all I want to go pick them up him and his buddies up they were at a party oh boy and oh boy though listen listen we we we had the whole discussion with my wife ladle she said she laid it all out there was like here's here's your one chance and it was a party where there's school like different schools you know wasn't just his so I faked them him and his buddies up from a party and we're driving home and they're all in the backseat and they're like Mr. Marx do you know Kendrick Perkins and I was like I do they're like can we ask you a question I'm like yeah like why is he such a leap on NBA 2K why is he such a jerk so I said I don't know that's a good question so when we were out in LA doing NBA today Cooper my 14 saw Perk in the hallway he said hey Perk he's in me Perk he was not a little man he says why are you such a jerk on NBA 2K Perk looked at him what he's like what are you talking about and yeah that's is he a commentator in NBA 2K he's here to the player he's a hater all right but this goes beyond Perk I've seen this I've seen this pop up in several media places so so here's what's happened in the past two weeks uh Nikolay Okitch was the best player on the championship team two years after Janice was the best player on the championship team John Morant was suspended 25 games for waving a gun on Instagram after waving a gun on Instagram live before why anybody has Instagram live is God damn beyond me and Zion Williamson was um embroiled in some off-court drama that I don't want to get further into because it's rated NC 17 and so now I've seen this propagated in a few places how and Perk said it out loud on TV I know where you're going with this if you if you want to agree if you want to build a team he said something like look for an Alan Han echoed it on get up look for international players this is a bad moment for American players look for international players and I'm like see this is we've now done the 180 so fast on on all of this and I don't I haven't I just I'm on comfort like I pivoted so fast away from that un MBA today when Perk brought it up because like I don't I'm not gonna I'm not gonna yoke itch is unbelievable I've been on yoke itch since he came into the league Janice is unbelievable um Perk brought up and bead like okay and bead hasn't like gotten it done in the playoffs to the degree that the other guys have as an international guy um I'm not reading anything in from Morant and Zion to like oh I gotta look at international guys I think there are interesting issues in what it's like for an international player who starts playing professionally at a younger age versus coming up in AU here I think that's a worthy area to investigate but like Steph Curry won the championship two years ago Lebron was the most dominant force in the league for 20 years Kevin Durant has been you know there's a lot of pressure on Kevin Durant now like if this thing fails in Phoenix you know I mean Kevin Durant goes to Phoenix Chris Paul's out Monty Williams is out like to get they got a win here but like he's one of the greatest 20 greatest players of all time like I just don't I don't like where that's headed and I felt like the train got out of the station last week and began accelerating and it's gonna keep accelerating and if I were Devon Booker or Jason Tatum or some of those some other American players who are younger I'd be like wait a second what's what are people saying if I'm Damien Lillard I'm saying wait what are people saying the the other thing it was since we're talking about that that bothered me a little bit was is that well they just need a change of scenery wait wait a minute what do you mean you just you don't think you don't think the issues that John Moran had Memphis wouldn't pop up somewhere else if he's if he doesn't face that square on or what Zion and New Orleans you know from a health standpoint so yeah I agree with you on the I saw that it rubbed me the wrong way the international you know part that you know if I was an Ameri as you said if I was an American Booker Durant one of these players out that certainly would bother me also while we're here what did you think of John Moran getting suspended for 25 games I thought that's what it was gonna be I just I never like I went on the I went into the dark spot the dark place on Twitter and people were like I I actually went in and read comments when I think I might have said something about I guess it was just maybe how much he got fined and people like oh it should have been 50 just you know it should have been a year I was like oh you know like I thought if it was 50 that he would have definitely filed a grievance and that probably would have been reduced to 25 I think the league thought out as a sweet spot we'll see if he files a grievance I thought it was going to be that number bram Gilbert serene Gilbert serene was 50 games because they basically had a gun like a like an old like western like gun draw in the locker room like that was a little bit different than than what this was yeah I actually so I was setting the over under 20 and a half and I was taking the over but under 30 and a half we were having this was one of the debates we had over drinks during the finals one night so it was not unexpected I will say it's it's interesting and the NBA got into this in their statement to some degree if you go back and look at gun-related suspensions arenas is a totally different thing that's in the locker room that's guns in the facility totally that that's just over here Steven Jackson shot a gun outside a strip club seven games Raymond Felton brandished I think a semi-automatic weapon in a domestic dispute four games now those cases were adjudicated those are criminal cases both of both Raymond Felton and Steven Jackson pleaded guilty to like lesser charges I think that they were initially charged with and but those are real things seven games and four games under David Stern so I do think it's fair to ask like what John Morant didn't doesn't appear to have violated any criminal laws in any of these cases 25 games it's a lot what's the explanation and I think the NBA got into it somewhat in its statement and the explanation I think is a repeat offense oh Steven Jackson had done some the mouse and the palace isn't like gun offense but it's something but repeat offense and repeat like the same thing after being penalized and expressing contrition which clearly was not all the way real I think the fact that it's on video is a distinct thing in this day and age just it just we all see it we see how it looks I don't know what the new information remember Adam Silver said like well we've uncovered some new information yeah I don't actually I actually thought that was going to go the other way like was it a toy gun was there you know was it maybe not what was the new info I guess the information was I don't know what it was I guess what was alluded to in the in the press release was um that he was aware that he was on that he was being recorded and I guess the gun was the gun the gun was real is that all the new information that was covered like I think the nothing yeah I think the number is fair-ish I just if I were John Moran's representatives and the grizzlies I would I would actually just want to meeting with the NBA like can you give me a little more about why 25 games but I don't I don't think it's outlandish also just don't like everyone's like how does this affect the grises I'm like I don't know the grises have played pretty goddamn well without John Moran it's 25 games chances are they'll be like 500 maybe couple games over a couple games under a few games over whatever and if he comes back and this is water under the bridge you just keep building your team if it's not water under the bridge if it's a recurring issue then your whole franchise is a little screwed up the only way I think it would affect the grizzlies would be if they looked at tie shones as that trade asset that how to had to kind of find a small forward out there and now with this now does this tie is not you know come off would he come off the table in any deal because you like who's playing guard for you like that would be really the only from a I guess from a trade standpoint roster building standpoint they've always taken the long view I don't see why they would change now even if it means really taking a step back at guard for the first 25 games you see let's finish with Chris Paul Chris Paul probably don't want to play for the wizards Chris Paul's family is on the west coast and he wants to win any place that Chris Paul goes if he's ever presented with some options I don't know if you will be there will be a lot of boxes to check but the two most important ones will be winning and proximity to his family um Chris Paul is 30.8 million dollar salary is now either mostly or all guaranteed depending on the specifics of this at least 25 is guaranteed which is not which is not all the way official yet the wizards could still whatever it ends up being the wizards could just wave them and say we're done we're not stretching you're just waving you here's all your money you're a free agent you'll clear waivers you can sign wherever you want in which case the whole league becomes um available to him to some degree um the clippers I believe can they even offer the non-tax mid-level no they just have the vet minimum so if he wants to go to the clippers and if the clippers want him their choices are vet minimum his choices slash their choices are vet minimum or trade um at his full salary number and the clippers certainly have a number of salaries they can add a bunch of yeah they got a bunch of expires which they which they won't be able to do aggregate in a year uh the lakers though could offer at least the non-tax mid-level yeah they've got 12 to I think the big question with with with Chris is if it if it is a um if it's a buyout is there you know is there significant space basically whatever you earn somewhere else like you're not going to double dip and even if there wasn't um there's going to be some type of you know he'll still make he'll make some money off it but there'll be some set off I mean the clippers is poetry right like that's that's the one that I know he's expressed that he wants to play with LeBron so are they different friends if they've always dreamed of playing together and the fit there is interesting it gives them an alternative to paying DeAngelo Russell the clippers it's a great fit and they have multiple ways to do it it's a West Coast team near his family makes a lot of sense any other crisper I mean the lakers and the clippers are the obvious ones are there any other ones that you have thought about no that's that's what I would see it from uh from his perspective and from you know we've taught that we've heard certainly the clippers would they would you trade for them and when you trade form you basically have to give up some type of combination of probably Marcus Morris Batume Covington that group two out of those three players probably it would probably cost you a second round pick and if he's just going to throw people like throughout Terrence man's name no yeah I have to lead that one they weren't even going to put him in the what there was a deal during the year I don't know there was some type of deal that I heard he like no like he might be your like you know he's your emergency point guard if you know it's certainly and he's a good player and he's on a great contract here but yeah that would be so that's why what is the benefit of trading for him and you probably have to give up something also where he just goes because he's not going to be able to get no there's nobody out there to claim him and it'll just go through um through waivers and he can sign there for the vet minimum well but the but the point is what's his vet minimum is almost like what three and a half yeah it's like three and change yeah but if I've got to compete with a team that's offering him 12 oh yeah that's a significant disadvantage yep but getting that full mount helps he's not getting 158 so that's certainly uh that's true it helps now you're right maybe maybe maybe it doesn't end up mattering uh of the teams that have been here are some teams that have been bandied about in the public sphere of the media spurs doesn't check the winning box it's interesting I may that would be suppressed Milwaukee that's something the bucks have thought about before with Chris they haven't gotten too serious about it in the past we'll see Boston the endless need for someone to run the offense in crunch time maybe Boston's got a lot of guards a lot of guards east coast far from his family checks the winning bucks checks to as do the bucks I thought about you know I asked when people asked and I like would he ever want to go to Memphis and be the veteran mentor that this team who's not going to have its point guard for the first 25 games of the season so badly needs didn't get a lot of good feedback on that one kind of like the fit but it's far I mean the Memphis is basically an eastern conference team geographically well one I wouldn't if there are two I wouldn't totally rule out Houston just because he's familiar with it and they're going to have money don't think it ends up happening just wouldn't rule it out what if Miami doesn't get lilyard why wouldn't they try somewhere another to get Chris Paul that's a great point I mean it's a you know I mean and we'll see what happens with gay Vincent who's certainly going to be desirable but that's that's that's certainly worth making the phone call we got we got three days before the draft I know I'm already in like for agency mode I you know I'm not and I feel like I need to go to training camp for free agency and like the like the offseason like doing the whole beel stuff I missed a couple things yesterday and I was like I need like a camp like a three day of like just nine trades in a day to get me conditioned to kind of where we are well but but everybody does the CPA isn't done teams don't have the CBA it's June 19th we're all going off a term sheet yeah that has that's very that's very bland it's there's not like when this when the CBA is not exciting so it's not a page turner well the CBA is like Greek mythology you know like I want to I need examples like when I send you guys notes I have to put examples there to help like people like understand it better here but no this the term sheet and that's where the aggregate rule is not as you know certainly defined but no we're we don't have a CBA written we have a new rules coming out I have fancy graphics that came out last night on the apron everyone go out and then look at it and that's sons apron they need to make that I will buy it and I will post a photo of myself grilling bad you know what we should do they would just change the second apron to the ishbia oh boy guys already held the ball in the front row and caused a freakus um now we're going to name something after um well I mean the Durant trade was made before the second apron was was something that anyone knew about the second apron is is not going to be a hard hard cap clearly Phoenix is just punched a hole through it but it's going to operate similarly to one for most teams and the the sons didn't really know that that was coming when they made this trade for Durant um to just to highlight the uncertainty that people are operating under here then there's this whole frozen draft pick rule that people are just like wait what happens my draft pick it's I said I said I made it then it goes to the back somehow I said on the video when I did on YouTube and Dave McMahon quote tweet and he's like I love like drunk bobby marks doing trade I was drunk but like my delirious and I said 2032 I go we might all be dead by then who the hell knows it might be like I'm telling you right now I'm telling you right now I'm going to Vegas next month I might resurrect the drinking low post podcast not sure who the cast will be if it's going to be the original cast or not I don't know who's going to be aware but uh it's it's time to resurrect that thing then you just don't know what's going to happen there was there was one time we did that podcast was the one we did at the bar with the freaking parents chirping in the background where I was on beer 0.3 and I I started saying something and I was like this actually is probably shouldn't be said I I was still good enough to just be like you know what no all right bobby marks you got to go you're in Bristol all week we're gonna see you on the airways till tomorrow I'll be in Brooklyn for the draft and then back to Bristol on Friday for free agency and yes you'll see me all week boy oh boy bobby marks hard work I pack a lot of shoes a lot of shoes take up a lot of spany way okay bobby marks we'll see you on the SPN the amount of season guides for all 30 teams are up if you want to learn what the new cba is going to be like follow bobby marks on twitter thank you sir hey buddy all right I'm super excited to welcome in our next guest side he needs absolutely no introduction from metal art media the host of the Dan Levitard show with stew gods and a whole just endless band of Mary people including a very cranky Mike Ryan the other day Dan Levitard how are you sir I would be better if the endless band of people that I have wasn't quite so cranky I would be better but generally okay so thank you for asking Zach so I wanted you on because obviously we're celebrating the nuggets were we're both celebrating the nuggets and looking ahead to the NBA offseason we already had a huge trade I have caught a decent portion of your shows the last couple weeks during the heat playoff run because I know how you are Miami and the heat are doing this thing this thing from the play-in to the finals and there were two snippets of yours that I just adored as a consumer of sports the first was almost rooting for the Celtics to make the conference finals interesting because the agony and the stress is part of it and without that it's not even fun and I think you were actually rooting for a game seven and the second and the one I want to start with was you're kind of you know I think you you're in your 50s now you said you're you're going through some real stuff I'm in my mid 40s we're going through some real stuff parents all that stuff and just sort of thanking the heat for the experience of getting all the way to the finals yeah they lost four one and and and being okay with not winning because the experience and the journey and the stress and the ups and downs is just it's all part of it and it really is it and I wondered if you might elaborate on that a little bit because I absolutely love that I got into this because I wanted to celebrate sports when I say this I mean this is a career I watched my father every day have dinner at a dinner table where he was complaining about work and I said to myself I want to have something in my life that doesn't feel like that when I go to work and as I see a total coarsening of how we cover this stuff where there is one winner and everyone else is a loser we call them losers because you only get one winner every year and the critic always gets to win because you've got plenty to choose from on who's a choker and who failed and almost every discussion in either sports debate television or social media through this coarsening is find me the person that I can criticize I was just grateful for the blessed distraction of the unexpected the surprise to me is the best thing in sports and the idea that a team that I didn't expect to do anything because it was one of the worst shooting teams in the league and one of the worst offensive teams in the league for them to mow down a Yanis I would have preferred to see against Denver in the final for them to mow down the Boston Celtics is not something that I'm going to get distracted by the punctuation when the statement before it was two months long and the punctuation is just a dot at the end I'm not going to obsess about the dot I understand why people do it and I understand why second place isn't good enough for many but I just enjoyed the blessed distraction as too many people get caught up with their identities and an unreasonable perspective when it comes to sports I just enjoyed what it is that we had instead of lamenting that it ended when I messaged you about coming on to talk about this I said you know as someone who's been around the heat when they're playing the nicks a little bit when they're playing the Celtics and in the finals and watching the finals slip away from them and seeing their people every day when they were down two one down three one down four one I got the sense that although they were devastated by not winning that they looked at it just like you did which we wouldn't expect from I mean Riley is there's winning and there's misery I don't I wonder if I mean I don't know Pat Riley I don't talk to Pat Riley now I wonder if he even really stands by that anymore because I got the sense unspoken mostly some spoken from spoke from the coaches from Andy Ellisburg that there's winning and there's losing but there's pride also and I think that even as they felt the final slipping away from them they were very proud at what they had done and they look at this this season as a rousing success if you got a chance to speak to any of them about that I've talked to a lot of them to know that they know it was an amazing and rare run I would say to you however that Pat Riley is devoid of this particular perspective I would say that Pat Riley is immune to the idea that you will be able to change his mind on there is winning and there is misery you will not be able to change his mind on that he doesn't have to be doing this anymore exact he has on his phone a a bunch of cameras that allow him to check in on the Malibu vacation house that he never gets to get to because he's down here in the cave at close to 80 years old tied up in this thing making him feel more alive I will say that one of the things that booze him is he enjoys sitting in Boston in game 7 and being pelted by everybody enjoys being in Milwaukee more than he enjoys being at home surrounded by support because he's a lunatic he's a crazy person about competition still doesn't talk to Michael Jordan and Larry Bird because of what happened 40 years ago so perspective eludes him but I will say others in the organization were amazed by that because it was almost totally unexpected once you go in I mean you know Zach I don't need to explain the history of this to you eight seeds don't do that for a lot of people to be picking the heat and get caught in the idea of making arguments well Spowe and Riley have a magic toolbox that's going to allow them to dismantle this giant unprecedented person and they played him better than anyone doing the playoffs they defended the nuggets a good deal better than anyone else but at the end of all of it Denver still had a guy better than anybody that they had there's nothing in sports like the experience of loving a team and watching them all the time and I haven't had that experience since the New York Mets of my childhood into my into my mid to late 20s and I always tell people like when you live it when you're watching every game and the team gets good and you're invested in it you learn just all the quirks of the players like I can still close my eyes and see Ray Ardonia's slide sliding and picking up a ground ball and the way John Olderwood would take his helmet off between pitches and you grow to love all their little quirks and read into them so as as someone who watched this team what from this playoff runner are you are you going to go into remember it's an elevated state of living say I can't even listening to this okay they may indeed tell me that the best day of their lives was the day that their children were born but I doubt that they were screaming at a television or jumping up and down in the delivery room the way that they do in the fourth quarter of a game because sports has a weird grip on the people who care about it so that you still do remember that stuff that imprinted your childhood what I'll remember is that it is as big a surprise as I have ever seen in sports in this town I was making the argument that this one would have felt better than any of the titles with LeBron or any of the titles that he'd had just because as I mentioned earlier I believe that the greatest thing in sports is the surprise you're telling me about the confidence a fan gets watching their team get good I'll tell you when I've seen the heat get good because I didn't see it at any point during the during the regular season I don't believe that that was a great basketball team I believe that that was a basketball team that needed some of the things that you need lock and a healthy Jimmy Butler for the first 10 games where he was normal and or abnormal I would say super heroic over 10 games that the surprise is just to me the coolest thing and being delighted by a team that you did not expect anything from because I didn't Zach I I watched the team all year I'm still expecting them to lose to Janice I'm still expecting the Milwaukee Bucks to rally in that series because that made no sense to me that they would they would do it easily there that up until the last few games at Boston the whole thing was easy for them that they never they never trailed in a series at any point at any point before getting to the finals and that's just lunacy you know the history of the sport you know how infrequently you see anything like that the euphoria you're describing not to sidetracked us about the Mets but I cared way too deeply about the Mets I can't anymore because I don't follow them you remember they traded for Mike Piazza from the Marlins and my favorite player on the Mets at that time was Todd Hunley who played Mike Piazza's position and so I was super excited about getting Mike Piazza's Mike Piazza but I was like oh man this is going to stink for Todd Hunley and they tried him at first base I believe they tried him in the outfield it was a disaster there was one game in September of that year in Houston which was good where the Piazza hit I think a three-run homer in the top of the ninth off Billy Wagner to send the game into extra innings and Todd Hunley I don't know if he was pinch hitting or what I can remember hit a solo homer and extra innings to win the game and I was home from college in my childhood home my sister was out with her friends because she's cooler than me my mom and dad were sleeping and because it was Hunley I like literally ran around the entire house up and down the stairs screaming as I'm doing it I'm aware how stupid this is but it just it just took me away it just like I will always remember that game and he was a regular season game but that's that's what it does I want to salute you for covering more intensively Mets games from 20 years ago than anyone in the podcast industry but what you speak of I have seen inside of my own family where I have my father Gabe Vincent has been his favorite player just because he's tiny hustler and his story's crazy I've seen my father fall in love with Gabe Vincent that way and I've seen my mother not want to trade for Lillard or Beale because she doesn't want to disrupt the magic of this and I recognize it because I heard all the people arguing on behalf of a 42 and 40 heat team that had Bryant Grant Lamar Odom and Dwayne Wade on it because they didn't want Shaquille O'Neill they wanted to keep that lovable little team that again was two games over 500 because they've fallen in love with the grittiness of it how can you not love Shaq wherever it is that your cynicism's lie about professional sports I'm perpetually amazed by athletes I marvel at them and so I don't spend a lot of time on the cynical side of this but how can you not marvel at the idea of falling in love and having your identity tied up in a team that has half of its players undrafted half of its players anybody could have had anybody in basketball could have chosen them in the draft that does the measurement on skills and all of them were unwanted like that's a that's a pretty easy thing to to fall in love with Jimmy Butler's style of play going and trying to get 15 free throws a game you saw you saw a team care I think one of the criticisms of yoke itch the only one that I could file is that it appears joyless what he's doing and the customer wants the athlete to feel some of the same thing so that that connection could grow you could tell how much the heat cared it was obvious so the undrafted thing I will just tell you that as this run happened it wasn't just fans who were captured by this I've had conversations with front office executives all across the NBA who are all asking in internal meetings what can we learn from this what can we learn from how the heat did this to be this mediocre team in the regular season and do this in the playoffs are there lessons in team building are there lessons in where the NBA is going in terms of parity that we need to download from it's the entire league was not studying the nuggets because everybody knows what the nuggets did and how they were built in with this what this player is yoke itch they were studying the heat for like what is it their decision making apparatus is it their commitment to spulcer it was cool to talk and it was a legitimate mystery and you can talk to 10 front off 10 GM's and one would say it was all luck one would say if you honest doesn't get hurt they're out and then five would say they've got something there that they're doing right that we need to emulate it was very interesting to have that discussion with people I don't know the answer I suppose some of it can be mystery but if you're willing to believe that Pat Riley is the magician in this respect Zach because I if the game were going to pass someone by the blueprint of how you would draw that up is someone near 80 watching the game go from two pointers to three pointers when he always scored with Karim and Patrick Ewing like if you weren't going to be able to evolve with the modern times that would look like so look a lot like that if I extrapolate that and tell you Jimmy Butler and Kyle Lowry missed a bunch of personal time the last couple of years and at no time in Riley's career was that okay you can't whatever's going on at home there's not missing for personal time that is not a thing if one of the evolutions here and I don't know if this is so but you can conjure whatever magic you want when a team wins like that what if in the age of load management the old dinosaur was just gearing his team for a playoff run all season what if the organization is aligned with the player on the idea of it's not just going to be load management scientifically per player it's going to be team wide so that what happened last year when the he told the wheels totally fell off against the Celtics doesn't happen again that we're training scientifically so I keep been in that place it's a military silo it's a military school for millionaires is what that place is and so if the science of what it is that they were doing was to build it so it would run most efficiently and suddenly they'd be able to shoot in in the playoffs I'm not quite an intangibles guy enough to believe in that when I can't prove it empirically I'm not a faith-based sports fan I want the data that supports what I'm saying but if I were to make the argument I'd make it around this basketball team if I was trying to make it because there's some unexplained here that I'm like okay it can just be surprised I'm not inclined to believe in magic but Pat Riley has proven and taken three franchise to this place and one in New York fell apart as soon as he left and never recovered from it like he knows something that we don't know and he's still crafting at that like that I don't think that one's up for dispute he's got a mastery of this thing that alludes men younger than him the last thing because I know you got to go the point about you wanting it to be difficult was so awesome because I'm a buddy of mine Scott who's a lifelong nuggets fan and shout out to Scott's little son Mason who enjoyed this in Denver and doesn't know the misery that led up to it and he went to the game he went to game five and I think when when all our teams have a chance to win as a fan who's like I would love a 40 point game just like I don't want to stress about it I don't want to feel any stress and he was hoping for that and game five ended up being this slugfest down to the wire and of course they win but I that's more fun I know you have to win for it to be more fun but I think even if you lose that game it's still more fun the agony like you feel it in your like your body your body like ceases to function normally in those moments of extreme sports stress and I'm happy for him that he had to suffer through uncertainty and doubt for 48 minutes of that game until they won that's better that's better than this than three quarters of celebrating this isn't a sports thing for me this is I've been in years of therapy thing for me the most rewarding fulfilling things are the things that are hardest to do there is growth on the other side of pain life principles just go toward the pain there's growth on the other side of it in this small little stupid playground what Pat Riley calls the toy department of human affairs it's a roller coaster and the roller coaster is only fun when your stomach drops or if you're a little bit afraid I understand that you want the comfort of four and five game series never behind you're always leading that's uninteresting for everybody it's the fear that makes it the most fun maybe maybe there's no distinction right maybe Denver had it so easy they blew everybody out they were clearly better than everybody maybe they're like no thank you don't want a fear want to have the best player want to want to have a cement mixer that rolls through the the paint and just devours everything in its path and I don't want a fear but I've been having this argument for 14 years down here exact because like you can imagine how scared everybody was when it was America against the heat and and Lebron and Wade and Bosch one of the things that made that the biggest sports story for me in the history of myself Florida sports journalism career is that there was always the fear there that the entire country was going to be laughing at you it's what made elevated all of it to a place that had such stakes for something let's be serious here I know anyone who's finding your podcast takes these things unreasonably seriously but something that's spectacularly stupid at its core I love it you love it we all love it but it's a silly thing for people who listen to this to be walking around for two or three days and with a hole in their stomach because the series in Miami went from three oh Boston to three three and you really hate Boston and now you're terrified what Boston has felt for three straight games now you get to feel for three straight games that's exactly what made game seven so great and so awful for the people who won and lost because everything got ratcheted to a place that is a higher plane of existence not just but not for not just for sports but for life like if you care about these things there's very few things in the world in entertainment or beyond that make you feel the way this thing does Dan Levitard there's just nobody who talks about sports the way you do it's it's poetry and when you write it's still poetry and a well-reported poetry at that just absolutely one of a kind I appreciate you may appreciate you making some time for us and everyone knows the show everybody listens to it I just am so appreciative that you came on oh please Zach what you've done I will continue to tell people as I tell them privately and publicly carving out a space in a labyrinth of assholary and idiots where you have something that is uniquely yours and an audience that follows it I respect it from over here because it's worth admiration it's not that easy to do and I know well I can imagine how hard you have worked on that hustle because it couldn't have happened without you pouring all of your soul into it I'll see you in South Beach within the next year hopefully sir thank you Dan anytime Zach always always happy to do this with you whenever you want to talk about sports it's an amazing thing