Tim Bontemps on Grant Williams, Dejounte Murray, and the Dame Discourse

And now the low welcome to the low post podcast on a Friday afternoon and it is Victor Wemba Nyama debut day in Las Vegas and our own Tim Bontems is there in a dark dingy look at hotel room fresh from the blackjack tables probably down 600 700 bucks crying into his whiskey Tim Bontems how are you? I got here to Vegas last night's act and I went to sleep and I slept for several hours and I feel good that's one of my trips so far I got to say Tim and I'm not saying this to make light of it I'm just saying stating a fact I really did not expect an instant intersection of Victor Wemba Nyama Britney Spears and controversy in Las Vegas I just I have nothing to say I'm only about the basic news reports I just didn't wasn't on the old wasn't on the old bingo yeah that's I think that's a welcome to welcome to the NBA moment if I've ever seen one for Victor Wemba Nyama this is just this is the world that he is now in so statements have been released I don't I don't get to Vegas for another two days apparently I'm just going to miss everything well they play who do they play tonight the spurs play the hornets tonight Brandon Miller versus Vic and then Sunday uh Scoot Henderson plays Vic Blazers Spurs so should be a fun should be a fun couple days to open summer league and chat homeruns hopefully playing Saturday look right and uh Salt Lake City so a lot of stuff to see it should be fun what do you think of the Lamello ball five year super duper mechs that's not super duper it's just a mechs five year mechs rookie mechs I was not surprised I mean I sort of thought coming into the offseason you'd see three guys get the full super max or whatever the full max extension right him Tyrie Saliburden and Anthony Edwards they all got it you know um obviously Lamello is a heck of a talent has not been able to be on the court as much as you would like last couple years hopefully that changes um but you know between Brandon Miller and you know now the Miles Bridges will be back on the court after last year well it's going to be interesting to see what happens in Charlotte but certainly if you pay a guy like that that kind of money the expectation is he's going to be an all star caliber franchise level player going forward and while he has the potential to do that for sure you know Lamello hasn't quite reached the same heights as Tyrie and Anthony so far so we'll see if he can um see if he can realize that next season I'm very curious see what happened in charles they have a new ownership group and I don't think it's time it's time for the new ownership group to step in and really modernize that team in every possible way put more money into it put more money into the staff and everything you know I heard I was listening to Bill Simmons and Ryan Rusillo on their free agency reaction pod my buddies and um they were kind of snickering or Bill was more specifically kind of snickering at the Lamello deal and said well can we can we can we have one five hundred season before I pay you two hundred something million dollars and I get that but also like this is just what it is this is what you do this is is Brian Winhorse likes to say the fun Max I'm looking at the estimates now it doesn't even crack 40 million until year three year four is 2027 2028 it's 44 million the caps going to be like 180 by then so it's going to be like 25% or less of the salary cap something like that and Lamello look I've said many times I didn't I thought Lamello for as as much of a passing savant as he is and the vision that he has and the joy that he plays with I thought he got a little hockey last year um he hasn't been the most efficient finisher around the rim I just thought he kind of became a chucker and if you look at his combination I this is all I'm just free will in this I didn't plan to talk about Lamello yeah but I believe if you if you sort the stats for like players who shot more than 20 field goals per 36 minutes and less than four free throws per 36 minutes it's like four guys and one of them is Lamello and that that felt about right but the size the vision and the shooting ability the ability to make tough threes off the dribble like this is just what you do particularly when you're the Charlotte Hornets and to be polite because it's Friday it's Wembee debut day let's be nice in polite the Charlotte Hornets have not exactly put Lamello ball in the best position to succeed on a team winning level over his three seasons in the NBA coupled with his injuries obviously those hurt too so I this is just kind of kind of what it is it's kind of what you do right I mean I I'm to me I'm like of course yeah no brainer like I don't even have much analysis of it yeah I mean he's just six seven point guard with incredible vision who averaged twenty three and eight and a half assists a game last year shot 38% from three and only played 35 games like you said Charlotte has not been a very good team but this guy has all-world talent and like you said the Charlotte Hornets and he's the franchise centerpiece for them going forward like I like I said I did not I thought there were three guys we were going to get max extensions from this rookie class they all got them and you know that was it was certainly not a shock nor a surprise when it happened I do feel like this is going to be the year I don't mean to say I'll say this the wrong way but like I'd like the basketball to be a little more serious and that's partly like the team has to be a little better but you know Steve Clifford is a serious basketball coach is going to demand serious basketball things and I just like I just thought the basketball got a little hoggy and gimmicky last year but anyway I don't want to talk about the Hornets anymore good deal. Desmond Bain max fine right all right I forgot about Desmond Bain he was gonna get it too yep for sure okay let's talk about some of the transactions that have happened since we last uh convened here at low post central uh the Boston Celtics the San Antonio Spurs and the Dallas Maverick strike a three team sign and trade in which Grant Williams as the main principal goes from Boston to Dallas on a four year 53 million dollar contract two second round picks come back to Boston Dallas sends out Reggie Bullock and an unprotected 2030 pick swap this is the summer of the swaps and the swaps of swaps and the swaps of the swaps of the swaps an unprotected 2030 pick swap to the Spurs along with Reggie Bullock Dallas gets back two second round pick so they're out of swap or they're vulnerable to a swap and they get two picks back and they get the best player in the trade um let's start with the Celtics because why not um I think it was not surprising that Grant Williams went goodbye once they got porzingus because they were gonna vault over the second apron if they had resigned or toward it or over it if they had resigned Grant Williams at this number here's where this all leaves the Celtics starting lineup Derek White Jalen Brown the Supermax is going to come the Supermax is going to come right I've been saying that over and over you have not heard any differently correct uh that is my expectation yes Derek White Jalen Brown Jason Tatum I'll just pencil in alhorfered Christopps porzingus and keep Robert Williams off to bed she it might be another combination of those two guys porzingus is going to start because he's making a gazillion dollars and they just extended him two years sixty million the bench then becomes Malcolm Brogdon Peyton Pritchard Sam Howeser O'Shafer set what kind of like Robert Williams then some deeper guys on the deep bench obviously Marcus Smart is out porzingus is in Boston dealt away from its surplus I guess surplus of guards I mean is it a surplus if Malcolm Brogdon's injured all the time it's so injured that you couldn't trade him and that Peyton Pritchard was out of the rotation unless it was like we need we need to put somebody frisky on the floor spice it up let's put Peyton Pritchard out there for four minutes and it won't play again for a month you know I've you're you're you watch this team more closely than anyone probably at our company I've been waiting to ask you about this and I've heard some of what you've said on the hoop collective but just now that the dust has settled and we know Grant Williams has gone and we know what the team looks like we know what porzingus' number is the next two seasons after this one I could do do you think any differently of the Celtics in terms of where they stack up in the east and the league today then you did three weeks ago or where are you on this yeah so I would say Zach that the Celtics have given themselves a higher ceiling by trading Marcus Smart in particular Christus porzingus I would also say with the moves they've made as of now we'll see what else happens the rest of the summer I would say they've pretty significantly lowered their floor because if you look at their team now they now have a seven-man rotation essentially after losing Marcus Smart and Grant Williams and adding Christus porzingus with four of those seven guys as you mentioned before Malka Brogdon porzingus Alhorferd and Robert Williams who are all likely to miss a pretty significant chunk of time from an injury standpoint and that's before you get into some of the roster questions I have now because this is a team that now really can't do a lot of the switching stuff that they've done in the past they've sort of dramatically changed their identity from a defensive standpoint and you know like people will look at Grant Williams like you mentioned it obviously they would have been probably 25 million into the luxury tax again in this immediate moment if they had matched that contract but I think this is a very bad day for them from a roster management standpoint because Grant Williams has proven over the past couple of years that he can play late in the playoffs he's on a contract now that is going to by the end of it be fringe rotation money which might sound sound wild to people when they hear a guy sign a four-year 54-million dollar contract but that deal is going up by four and a half percent a year and the cap is jumping by 10 percent a year yeah people just need to understand that in five years the cap is going to be like 190 million undercurrent projections it's 136 right now right and so next year it's probably going to be 150 the year after that it's probably going to be 165 and the year after that it's probably going to be 180 and those are those are conservative estimate though what no those are those are right and that's so you just that's where the 10 percent jump each year which is the max it can jump and it's probably going to jump the max every year and so you just need to do instead of being like oh my god 44 million for the mellow ball in 2028 or 32 million for Jeremy Grant and whoopsy we kind of signed that one thinking one thing was going to happen well maybe not I don't know should we have found better blah blah blah just do the percentage math it's not that hard okay Boston go ahead so you look at that and yeah great Williams might not have played all the time for this team but great Williams is a very healthy guy he's durable he's versatile he can play off of Jason Tatum and Jalen Browne he's an excellent spot up shooter particularly in the corners he can guard all across the positional spectrum they put him on guards they put him on centers you know he guarded both Jimmy Butler and Joel and beat at times in the playoffs to show his versatility and like I said he's not I'm not trying to make him out to be an all star in the future he's not but if you're a team as good as Boston and you have a chance to win a title this coming season and you lose a player off your team for nothing that to me is a very disappointing thing if you are following the Celtics and I especially think you have to look at this as a financial move when you look at this trade because even if you'd said well the Celtics didn't want to pay Grant Williams four years and 54 million which by the way when they were talking about an extension in the fall it wasn't much lower than this so it's not like this was way off of where they were going to wind up but just look at what San Antonio did in this trade you mentioned it when you were talking about it not only did they get Reggie Bullock who's a fine 3&D wing who's a 38% shooter who certainly could have helped the Celtics they also got an unprotected pick swap first round pick swap in 2030 which by the way will be Luca Dott which is 12th season in the NBA and there's plenty of reasons to wonder if he's even going to be on the team at that point and if he's not that could be an extraordinarily valuable swap particularly if you look at San Antonio and if Victor one minyama is relatively healthy he'll be in his seventh season and they're going to be very good all but certainly if he's able to stay on the court so you look at that all the way around and even if the Celtics had gotten Grant Williams or Reggie Bullock in the pick swap I would have said all right you have a pick you you have a salary slot you could trade you have a decent player who can help your team and you get a really valuable asset in the future in this pick swap instead they get two second round picks they get a six million dollar trade exception and they lose a guy who they know can play for them in the final two rounds of the playoffs which are the most valuable players outside of stars that you can find so yeah they have accumulated now a million extra second round picks from all their wheeling and dealing it to draft and I have seen some media coverage over the last couple days it's like sources Celtics accumulating picks with eye on making big trade no they're not accumulating picks with an eye on like just having picks and being like hey let me just bring up my list of second round picks and enjoy it over a glass of wine that's what they're doing every team is doing that look I understand I understand what the Celtics are doing like they had a lot of guards and they traded out of that positional glut so to speak and added a player that didn't necessarily address a positional need but certainly added depth to an injury risk position with horror for getting old and Robert Williams being injured all the time but more than that I understand why the Celtics having experienced the absolute slog of what the playoffs have been like for them and I know that sounds weird because they made the finals and the conference finals but like boy did they have to just scratch and claw it wasn't easy anywhere it wasn't easy it was never easy on offense it was always just like are they gonna fall apart in the last four minutes how later they're gonna start this possession in the shot clock how hard are they gonna have to work here to get the switch they want and will they be able to execute out of the switch they want and I understand the desired like we just have to loosen things up and give ourselves a jolt of stylistic change and Kristop's poor Zingas is a jolt of stylistic change because he is not just a shooting big man he's a gunner he's a quick trigger quick release gunner Al Horthard is a shooting big man he's not quite that he's not like pick and pop dudes closing out on me in my face I'm shooting it anyway that's not out Al can do that sometimes he's more like I'm open in the corner here it comes I'm gonna let it fly yeah forget the post up stuff like everyone is really going head over heels over I was like now they have a back to the basket option what a luxury for the Celtics they'll do that when he gets a switch and poor Zingas we everyone knows the efficiency stats from last year we're up the charts I don't trust those stats they're out aligned with the rest of his career but he did get more decisive attacking off the catch which I like don't sit there and play with the ball and jab step for eight seconds just catch it and go he did more of that he's a he's a little bit of a better passer than people think when he when he thinks that way so I understand the need for a stylistic jolt I understand that there are people around the league who think Marcus smart because of the way he plays because that he's approaching 30 or wherever he is now he is an injury or bad aging risk going forward because of the full contact full floppage full falling over full everything full throttle way he plays I get all that I get it I guess I just net out at I'm a little more uneasy than not uneasy is the wrong word if there's like a continuum from people who really don't like what they did like perk perk goes over here is like this is a disaster Marcus marks the heart and soul of the team to over here on the other extreme this is a no-brainer the Celtic said too many guards this is a different look porzingus is really good have you checked his numbers from his one year with the wizards incredible blah blah blah if that if these are the extremes I'm like 30% of the way to the positive extreme and 30% like I'm like closer to the I feel a little queasy that's where I come out and I feel a little queasy because I'm not sure how much I trust this idea that Boston had a ton of guards on their team and too many to play when again Braggdins injured all the time and currently and Peyton Pritchard was out of the rotation most of the season I like Peyton Pritchard he's fine and I just like all three big men I don't trust their health and I'm just not 100% convinced that like the Robert Williams Christopps porzingus duo is going to be a workable thing on offense or on defense in some matchups and I just and they went away from the whorford robber Williams pairing for a lot of last year and if you come out in the wash and it's like we just can't play two of these three guys together in an enormous amount of minutes I've lost one of the players or two of the players really that is sort of the glue between the smallest guys and the biggest guys in Marcus Smart and Grant Williams the Celtics are going to be awesome no matter what I like percent a lot I think that's good value for them I think you can come in and play on their team maybe they do have a higher ceiling I guess they do I guess I'm I just can't kick the queesiness I feel because of all that stuff and because again one of the worst passing teams in the league not worst let me strike that an okay passing team prone to droughts of stagnancy lost its assist leader and replaced him with a big man who likes to shoot a lot I just I my my two pessimistic I don't I feel like I'm missing something with this yeah so I'm mostly talked about the grant part of it before so yeah like the porzingus Marcus Smart trade is one of the most fascinating trades I can remember outside of you know a team training for a superstar which is always going to generate a lot of interest because of just how significantly it changes the way the Celtics are oriented right as you mentioned Marcus smart oh look I think it was probably the right time to trade Marcus smart I think they got great they got great value I should have said that they got really good value with the two first round picks they got from Marcus smart yeah I mean I would say Chris has presenters is a better player in a vacuum than Marcus smart and they got two first round picks now they turn one of them into a million seconds which I mean I guess we'll see what they do with all these seconds but um but yeah like they I understand why they made the trade Marcus took I think a bit of a step back last year they have Derek white who's an excellent player and it's clearly going to be their point guard now I'm sure you you could certainly make an argument that there'll be a lot better with Derek white now needing to play 36 minutes of game then the you know 28 he was probably playing oftentimes before um and certainly porzingus you know they didn't have an option to really combat switches they can throw the ball the porzingus in the post like you said but I don't know if he's going to be as efficient as he was before but they do have a bit of a plan B now what they didn't really have we haven't seen Jason Tatum and Jaylen Brown do a great job beating switches so from that standpoint I understand why they made the deal and that's why I think they have a higher ceiling because if this thing clicks right if you have those four guys out there you're you're you have a chance to be a pretty dominant team at both ends of the court potentially with porzingus at the rim with Robert Williams like you said the the other if you have them out there with Tatum Brown and and Derek white you've got excellent perimeter defenders then like that they have really going to be awesome no matter what well I will see I because I think like I said I think they have significantly raised their floor and if you told me they have the best record in the NBA next season I could totally see that however they they have four of their seven guys now who are significant injury risks the three centers and Malcolm Brogdon so that's three of your top seven guys we'll see how many of them are actually available to play you know you mentioned O'Shae Berset the fact that they might need to rely on someone like that in their rotation sort of sort of sums up the fact that their wing rotation now is very weak and not having Grant Williams a guy who you could slot in as a floor spacing three in certain lineups and certainly could play it for if any of those centers are not available are able to play together which to your point I have some real concerns about like yeah I think you can potentially play Robert Williams at Chris Tass Bersengus together against some teams but I don't think that's a lineup you could play together all the time and you're looking at Al Horford now approaching 40 and needing him to be out there playing in a lot of lineups that I'm not sure he's gonna necessarily be able to hold up in so I mean look they it's it's a it's a team that I want to see on the court because it is just such a wild difference from what it was before and I'm very interested to see what it looks like again they they've done so much switching on defense they can't really do that anymore they have to you mentioned the passing I think that has been an underrated thing they were not a great passing nobody talks about that I don't I don't know why maybe people think that Jason Tatum is going to become like an eight assist guy or something like I Jalen Brown is a a an even assist to turn over a show guy who does not average a lot of assists yeah like they're just not a good passing team and they and smart was erratic at times also led their team and assist and was if not the initiator every possession initiator 50 pick and roll the game initiator only ran 17 pick and rolls per 100 possessions which was like tied with Jalen Brown and Derek White in terms of volume according to second spectrum he was their best connector within possession screen roll kick extra pass on the perimeter catch go make the next play I I feel like that's a glue that there maybe it's just all Derek White replacing it because he's good at all that stuff too um I I just I don't know I feel like no one's talking about that I don't know why I don't think it's a coincidence that their offense always look best when Marcus Mark was on the court because when he wasn't out there and the wings have the ball the ball tends to stick and not move much and then they get into ISO heavy situations and they tend to not do as well so I think the lack of passing and ball movement on offense could be a real problem the injuries could be a real problem and I also think to be frank I think the lack of personality on this team could be a significant problem like they just don't have a lot of energy and passion in this group now really like they're just they have a bunch of really good players but there's nobody who you look at as a guy that really is going to galvanize the group like Marcus smart was always that guy for this team Grant Williams was a guy who oftentimes would serve that kind of a role for this team those guys are both gone so now like in some on one hand you could argue that putting Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown you know again as we both assume this extension gets on with Jalen if you're putting them in a situation where they need to step up and fulfill that role and really tap that be their team as opposed to Marcus smart's team in some respects in an ironic way you could argue it's sort of like what Memphis did moving on from Dylan Brooks and that he had a little bit too much of a a share of their personality for where his spot was in their hierarchy from a talent standpoint but the Grizzlies have some other guys with big personalities it's safe to say that now they're putting Marcus smart in that group the Celtics like it's just going to be interesting to see what they look like from that standpoint which I know is sort of an esoteric hard thing to quantify but you know like if times get tough for this team next year who's going to be the guy that's going to galvanize the group is going to be Al Horford like you know I think it needs to be Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown and that's not something they've really ever done so it it's truly I've been trying to wrap my head around the poor Zingas deal for a month or whatever I guess for two weeks three weeks since it happened because it I just truly have I don't remember a lot of deals like this where I just don't have a sense of what this team is going to look like because of how dramatically they've changed particularly for how much success Boston has had and that's why I think this Grant Williams thing is a really significant problem for them because he was a guy that could bridge some of the gaps in their roster at the moment and now that they don't have him they kind of just have to have some of these things work that I'm not sure will like they need Malcolm Brock into playing be good they need these three centers to all be healthy a decent amount of the time and be able to all play together which I'm just not sure they will so I don't know it's it's going to be fascinating to watch I really can't wait to watch the next year because they are going to be so fundamentally changed from the team they were before I think one of the reasons everyone has had a harder time wrapping their head around it is because when it was Bragedon for poor Zingas it was kind of like oh sure Malcolm Brockton like short-term Celtic heard a lot like I was a safe move right how could Bragedon for poor Zingas was safe more this part for poor Zingas was a high variant swing was like we're changing the total structure of our team yeah this is a core part of our identity going out and also now poor Zingas was extended for two years 60 million which I think is fine like poor Zingas on an expiring isn't ideal poor Zingas on a four-year extension which they couldn't do it this time anyway is an ideal two years is fine but it is a significant commitment to that point the Celtics right now have about 190 to 195 million dollars already essentially committed in payroll for 2024 2025 which would take them right up to the second apron basically already and in 2025 20 that assumes a super max for jail in brown in 2025 2026 they could have 153 ish million committed to four guys in the jays poor Zingas and time lord before you address any other part of the roster which is one of the obstacles to pursuing Damian Lillard which is not something I want to talk about right now right they also overhauled their coaching staff in a way that probably is a net upgrade in terms of it's not probably is a net upgrade in terms of experience and acumen and whatever around Joe Mizzula but it is overhauled nonetheless let's talk about Dallas because Dallas is boy if they got a lot of kudos in this off season and I think they largely deserve it Grant Williams is an unbelievable fit for the Mavericks and you can worry if you want about the departure of Bullock who is a good shooter once the calendar turns to January in a reliable defensive player yeah but this team needed a bigger reliable defensive player Grant Williams is a better screener passer than Reggie Bullock by a lot and I think the Mavericks can lean into using him that way he has the potential to fill minutes at center although they're not really built to do that and they have a lot of centers on the roster and he is a much bigger more versatile defender than Bullock is and we know what they did at the draft in dumping Bertons and taking in Roshan Holmes and ending up with two first round picks that they really really liked an OMAX prosper who could play right away and Derek Lively is probably more of a prospect for them they signed Seth Curry on a good deal re-signed Dwight Powell on a good deal Dante Exum unbeknownst to me was shooting like 45% on threes in Europe on smaller volume but like pretty good and running a nice pick and roll apparently he's back Jade and Hardy showed a lot of signs last season and all of a sudden they got like an interesting conglomerate of wings around in between Kyrie and Luca and of course Kyrie is back Kyrie is back of course I was going to say that that's kind of kind of a significant part of the and so a lot of kudos for the Mavericks and I think I think deserve it but here's their starting five this is my best guess at their starting five yeah I could go a number of different ways Kyrie and Luca I'm going to pencil in Josh Green at the three could be hard away or at the two three whatever we want to call it could be hard away could be Josh Green it's probably going to be one of those two I think Grant Williams will probably walk in and start for them at the four and Dwight Powell who's like a cockroach you can't kill Dwight Powell you can't take him out of the Mavericks starting five for long he's always going to find his way right back into the Mavericks starting five and then off the bench Delta can stagger the two superstars if they like although that's going to create a wing crunch for them then that you have to him hard away junior or Josh Green whichever of them doesn't start Kleba I think they might actually play Kleba a little bit if not much more at the four next season from what I'm hearing and pair him with the Holmes or a McGee or a lively which then just leaves me like one spot for the exome Hardy Prosper group and that's a team that particularly with Grant Williams to defend a ton of positions and screen and add size and add spot up shooting a playmaking it makes sense you say all these transactions it's like it's exciting right like that the maps like with without a ton of resources and flexibility and after embarrassingly tanking away the rest of their season only to see a play and team make the finals like came out of this about as well as a team could possibly come out of it and you want to get excited and it is exciting they have Luca one of the 10 best players in the NBA at worse the first team all NBA guy almost every season they have Luca a guy who one man by himself can eviscerate any defense you have you have Kyrie who adds shooting secondary playmaking puts a freaking battery pack on to the slowest team in the league and gets them running all of that it's very exciting and then you read that starting five again it's like Kyrie Luca Josh Green Grant Williams Dwight Powell is that really Kyrie Luca in three backups three career backups and then a bench full it is it like in the west in the west is that team when you really read all the names and yes a lot of those career backups like Josh Green and Grant Williams have increased upside near younger is that team worth all this excitement in the west I mean it's exciting it is exciting they did they did a great job and then you look at the names and like man I got to be with Denver the Lakers the Warriors the Suns the Kings the Grizzlies the wolves the Clippers whoo how good are they I'm not sure they're going to make the playoffs and it's going to sound crazy to mass fans I just read all Denver Lakers Warriors Suns Kings Grizzlies wolves people just forget about the wolves because they were such a disappointment yeah take the flipers thunder take the Republicans take the thunder right those teams finish eighth ninth and tenth last year there are now that the dust is settled right like in the west we know Portland is going into the into the toilet or they'll be fine like they'll be fun to watch they're not going to be a playoff team San Antonio is going to slow play it it looks like although they have some interesting young players they'll be solid Houston Houston's not going to be very good either they'll be better but they're not going to be yeah exuberant and fun but when you talk and you talk being sort of the same places last year the teams that were 12 to 15th are going to be 12 to 15th again barring something weird again and we shouldn't put something weird past will hearty in the jazz well she's doing well great for sure that's much more this is much more of a comment from my opinion on the rest of the conference you go through these teams like 11 teams 11 let's just start well I'll just go out from 11 and go up right from last year so Dallas we just talked about I think they did get significantly better they've had a good off season I really like Josh Green I think you just need to have a chance to start I think he's a starting quality player he's good I like the Grant Williams fit they've got like you said a roster that makes sense I think Oklahoma City is making the playoffs I think they're taking a significant leap this year if they're healthy Jalen Williams played one game in summer league and I don't think he's playing another one he did exactly what you wanted to do get 20 with Jalen Williams wing Jalen Williams wing Jalen Williams he looked incredible yeah how about not on that one stay home buddy like I don't need you to play summer league he came out he came played as one game and showed what you want to see from a second year for fans are watching these games over the next week or so if you see a second year player playing you want to see him dominate the game Keegan Murray comes back and plays the summer league dominates Jalen Williams dominates like that's a sign guys are taking steps forward he looked great I think Oklahoma City Chen Holmgren I think is going to be great for them they've still got some flexibility to do stuff I I really like where the thunder are going so they're going to be tough to be Pelicans you know who knows what's going to happen health wise but the first half of last season when Zion was on the court they were up at the top of the west they could be a very tough team as far as making the playoffs Minnesota didn't have cat and Rudy together basically all last season they had all kinds of chaos happened during the season they got Mike Conley part of the way through the season they still finished over 500 and they're going to be Tim that achievement really if you ask cat was better than what Denver achieved last year just being over 500 I mean they should hang a banner in the target center if it's still called that just and it should say really when you the the banner should say 2022 23 rules really when you think about it had a better achievement than the champion Denver nuggets hooray I'm leaving that one alone at a lot of levels but my point is those are the teams that finished eighth ninth and 10th ahead of Dallas and everybody else ahead of them the Lakers the war you know we could talk more about the Lakers I know you mentioned me I don't want to I don't want to but the Lakers are going to be fine the Warriors the Clippers the Suns you know the Kings have everybody back they're probably going to take a little bit of step back but they're still going to be tough Memphis is still very good obviously Denver is defending champs like there are going to be good teams can I just plan and there's going to be one quick question yes you want quick question yes are we sure the Clippers are going to be fine I mean what I would when I say when I say fine I mean the Clippers out to me aren't going to win 30 games like they might not make the playoffs but again like good teams that's my point there are 11 good teams and three of them are going to miss the playoffs and one of them is going to miss the play in tournament again so I don't know who it's going to be but I'm not confident like I think Dallas is at a very good offseason and I'm not confident they're going to finish fourth as a result I mean they might finish eighth they might finish 10th they might finish 11th they might finish 6th but it's it's a very it's a very challenging it's a very challenging conference from a depth standpoint and it's you know like you said they've done a good job and they have a solid team but I don't think there's a guarantee that they're just going to magically jump up five or six spots just because they're motivated to like it's going to be a slog to to finish high in the West it is amazing that the Mavericks were in the conference finals 14 months ago and you can some people would dismiss that as a fluke like the sons had a covid outbreak whatever they beat the sons they got to the conference finals beat the jazz despite Luca missing part of that series 14 months later the players who ranked first second third and fifth in postseason minutes for them are all gone 14 months later that's like that's incredible um the biggest question they have to answer obviously is their defense which after kind of improbably being in the top 10 that season fell dramatically last year despite the fact that their shot selection allowed was essentially the same they did they do a good job running people off the three-point line they don't allow ton of shots at the rim they're rebound and collapse and they just fouled the hell out of everyone they were 27th in a point of free throw eight they were 9th or 10th in both those categories the season before and kairi luca and whoever their centers are like clea is fine as a defensive center he's a little undersized it's not the skeleton of in elite defensive team or even maybe a good defensive team can they be average and a little bit better than average maybe that's the biggest question to me the offense look i know there was that one game against minnesota where kairi i think it was against minnesota where kairi and luca played hot potato and everyone's like well this is why you need chemistry and two ball handling stars sometimes don't fit the fits going to be fine their offense was like off the charts with those two guys on the floor i do think we'll see them run more pick and roll together to try and get luca switches that he can beat up in the post and all that the defense is the question the experience level to me is the question i think it's a really really interesting team that has found some of the right kinds of players i guess the simplest way to put it is much like was the case with the lillard mccollum blazers low i think on a higher plane because luca is just well maybe not that much of a higher plan i don't know the gap between their second and third best players is just so big that it leaves you with a lot of uncertainty about them but i think they're going to be interesting team i think they had a great it could be one of those cases where a great offseason does not net you out as much of a standings improvement or at least pre tank standings improvement as you would think yeah i i totally agree and and you know the other thing too is carierving is not exactly the most durable player before you get into anything else and if he misses a bunch of time you know the whole thing is depending on on the second best i just said there's a gap between the second and third best players that's like the grand canyon right the second best guy is has had a an interesting few seasons just say he's not the most reliable guy so you you know and if they if one of those guys is not playing you know they basically only have Seth Curry to handle the ball in the roster right so that is the one thing that i think is a potential issue for them if either one of them does miss time is like you know obviously you're just gonna have the ball in their hands all the time anyway so it'll probably be fine and it's one of those things where if one of them is a plane you're probably in trouble anyway but but yeah look they've had a good offseason i like the moves they made i think grand josh starting will give them a lot more like you said a lot more defensive versatility i think josh screens are really good i think i'm a big fan moving reggie bullock you know as to make man alluded to it's a you know clear a clear path for josh green to start i think is good for Dallas but again like you said i'm not sure they're gonna be higher than i'm not sure they're gonna get out of the plan i'm not sure they're gonna make the playoffs and you know after the season lucas two years away from frayed c and you know that's it's it's just that's a situation among it or on a lot of fronts so i should have mentioned Seth Curry more among the bench brigade i i think that's a case where if you're staggering them luca and kairi i think you match his minutes Seth Curry's minutes with luca because the curry kairi tandem is just smaller than you need to be but he's another guy that needs to say healthy too and he is i was gonna say i did find it um a little puzzling how much like astonishment there was that the mavericks got Seth Curry on such a on such a cheap contract and he was like a two-year eight nine million dollar contract i'm like yes this curry can shoot the hell out of it he's hurt all the time and he is a massive defensive liability who multiple teams have had trouble playing in the playoffs at times like that did not surprise me at all okay let's go to the other bit of big news from yesterday which is the Atlanta Hawks taking an interesting trade candidate off the board for a while now resigned de jonte Murray to a four-year 120 million dollar extension doubling down on the trade young de jonte tandem for which they have paid handsomely in draft picks going out the door to the spurs they now have as things stand now and assuming pretty conservative market value extensions for onyeka kongo and sedic bay or new contracts they're now pushing a hundred and ninety five million dollars in committed salary for twenty four twenty five which is way over the projected tax and right up against the ish bia apron and the next season twenty five twenty six could be more the same clink capella's deal expires but jalen johnson's deal kicks in and after if jalen johnson is part of their long-term core his next contract kicks in and after that it's a j griffin and on and on so here's what we are with the hawks i first of all i thought four one twenty that's really nice value for de jonte Murray jonte Murray's a good player was very surprised he signed that extension well i don't look i mean maybe he just want it's it kind of reminds you of the wiggins extension which is going which was this which you knew at the time was like whoa that's a low number of ranger wiggins coming off what he did for them in the playoffs and it's just going to age into like a what happened today at your wiggins contract i some guys just want security and that's fine it's still almost thirty million bucks a year for a guy who's just a really good player he he's he he can do a little bit of everything he didn't shoot the three what as well as you would hope playing off a tray young last year although weirdly Tim i looked at him today de jonte was thirty three percent on catch and shoot threes and forty four percent on pull-up threes which strikes me as like it's a little bit random it'll probably like reverse next year or something like that yeah and he's a he's a good defensive player probably slightly overrated and can get beaten up by bigger two guards a little bit um but here's here's they're probably projected team after finally dumping john collins for a ham sandwich when they could have traded john collins for real stuff like seventeen times over the past four years starting five tray young murry sedic bay deandre hunter clink capella that group played only forty eight minutes total last year sedic bay was obviously acquired pretty late in the game the holdover for some of tray murry hunter capella played eight hundred some minutes they were plus four points for a hundred possessions a solid lineup i like that starting five that's fine bay and hunter are probably need to shoot the three a little better but they're thirty five thirty six percent each off the bench you stagger the two guards that's the whole point again i'm right so one of tray and murry will be on the floor bog don of it who's been a six-minute of the year candidate every year what healthy i think you give a jay griffin a shot at a full rotation roll jalen johnson definitely gets a shot of full rotation roll and okongu is one of the best backup centers in the league who's probably the air apparent and we might even see quince knight or toy with playing the two bigs together because he had a kongu jack and threes last year that's a solid bench and then we don't even get into the guys they just drafted and some of their non guaranteed guys we don't even have to go that far down to get where we're at nine ten guys already um that's a solid that's a solid team and like what we just said about the west eleven teams deep at least the east is kind of in a weird state of volatility right now right we just talked about bossin they're gonna be they're going to be fine but they've got some interesting wrinkles the answer mil walkies mil walkie they're going to win a crap ton of regular season games although yannis just sneaking it in there like a little clean up me surgery well hopefully yannis is fine cleveland i guess we will be better like they they were embarrassed in the playoffs but they had a i thought a really at least got to be a very good regular season team yeah top five teams in the east will be the top five teams in the east again the nicks i think should should probably be stable i mean they've had this weird like every good year is followed by a dip back thing but they should be ok with brunson that they're not like but the nicks i don't i don't look at the nicks like well that's a team that's on their way to fifty five wins as is well i i mean i think there's a decent chance they they win more games than they did this past season i like don't even chance of a lot and i think their depth and continuity carrying over will be pretty important i'm still i still can't believe that anybody thought it was a good idea for them a walkie-bucks to trade don't even chance of for surge of aqua that was a great wasn't great wasn't great the nets will be worse despite the fact that they'll just be worse win total wise because they will not have the cushion build up from well at this i'm i don't have to cut in but at this point you just have to say like then there's Miami right like well this is what i'm saying filled i'm saying philly and Miami are kind of in this like we got to see where they net out if they are able to acquire or trade their respective guards that you know philly's maybe trying to trade one kind of and Miami's trying very hard or hard-ish to acquire one right they don't you figure they're in this elite group top half group somewhere Toronto got worse Chicago is just man or landals getting a little better but they're whatever we'll see if they're 500-ish maybe a little better Indiana's solid my point is if you told me right now the Atlanta Hawks were the third seed in the east next year i wouldn't be like that's implausible now i wouldn't expect it because again one of those philly Miami teams will probably hit this out of the park somehow or at least come out better and you still have Boston and Milwaukee but if Atlanta stays healthy i it's a weird team the two guards together are still weird i think Quinn Snyder has already found places where they can cooperate and have some synergy between them instead of just like at times last year it was a rough watch it was like trea young pick and roll floater trea young pick and roll floater okay did you not that you take it did you not take pick and roll 18 footer and like they can make those shots it just wasn't a particularly fun brand of ball i don't know i might i might have a little bit of a weird irrational affinity for the hawks but i read those names and i look at how they fit and if they stay healthy and they get a good season out of Bogdanovich and an improving improvement from their young guys jelen johnson really showed showed more than flashes i kind of like this team i think they're okay i think they're okay i think they're probably gonna be seventh i mean i i i just think they're pretty clear step below i mean i think they're a step below teams like cleveland and new york who i think will be better than them during the regular season i don't think they're gonna be i'm not convinced new york is gonna be better than them in the regular season i i mean i just be a cock-eyed hawks optimist could be i mean i the nicks i thought i think the nicks did a lot of stuff that's fairly sustainable and they added a good player so and everything else is the same so i i think they're gonna be better personally i think cleveland's gonna be better and cleveland should be should be at least as good i mean they were number two in the whole league in that rating so they're not gonna get that much better but they should be about yeah i mean ironically they were sort of like coinciders Utah teams where i think they were you know top three in the league in an net net rating but also had pretty easy flaws to pick apart and apply also i think that might be the same thing again this year but if you look at if you look at the top four or five teams in the east it's just hard for me to see Atlanta cracking that group realistically and that and that's before you account for Miami potentially getting game which at that point i would probably say they're the seventh best team and that's where to your point about uh their salary going forward that is where you have to wonder what's going on in Atlanta because to be pushing up against the second apron you're not gonna want to be no team wants to be 15 or 20 million dollars into the tax no there's a move there's a move to come the only question is can they ride out this season right if they're playing well before they make the move well and i mean it's just something's going to give right because teams don't stay normal teams you know non like warriors clippers you know early net's teams or you know early Joe side early mekel pro croft net's teams those teams don't stay that far into the tax to be mediocre so you're you've got to be really good to spend that kind of money and i just don't see the path to this hawks team being that good they also have one of the best coaches in the entire NBA who now gets actual time to plan for this job and this team and we already saw him make his imprint on the team in lots of different ways pace was higher they toyed with like Murray and young sometimes screening for each other off the ball and getting tray young to do any god damn thing off the ball has been stretched for every coach they've had so good like win Snyder but that's one of the missing pieces for them missing sounds it's weird to say that because their offense has been very good for most of tray young's career sure and it's actually been crap with him off the floor although they've had snippets two months here when healthy two months there when healthy when enough of their bench guys are healthy that it's been fine um obvious the other thing was the offense of rebounding just skyrocketed and every was interesting everyone expected them to shoot more threes when quince nider took over because they were dead last or second to last in threes and that didn't happen their threes didn't uptick at all it was all shots at the rim which came out of their share mid-range shots wonder if we do see more threes this time around now that there's time all right so i'm gonna i'm gonna make you a bet right now okay let's bet let's bet uh let's bet what would be fun to bet in vegas i don't dinner a beer i don't we got to fit come up with what's something more fun than you don't live that far for me we don't have to have it be a vacancy no because it's gonna have to be it's gonna the basis of the better know what the bet is so it won't be known until April so we can be the dinner in the playoffs or one of us has to stake the other a hundred bucks to gamble in vegas or whatever whatever you want whatever you want here's the bet i'm taking Hawks in the playoffs top six not in the plan in unless you want and you you're saying seventh or worse i'm saying rock solid i don't even need odds Hawks are in the playoffs without the play internament uh you know i feel that's probably against that but sure it's fun i mean it's fun to do though why not i said they're gonna fit i said they're not the top six so sure why not top six they're in i mean i i would say that i think there's a chance i think there's a decent chance i lose that bet because i do think that at lana's all right fine fun no no no no no don't stop me what you have me in a in advantage i'm going crazy top five oh i mean sure fair bet sure i i was just going to say i do i do think you're right in the sense that the hawks have a solid top three just kidding top five yeah i know the hawks are kind of like the hawks are kind of like the nixon calves right where they have solid i mean more like the nicks where they have solid depth of eight or nine guys that you like and they've obviously you know you've got trea young and jayla brunson to sort of drive your team and i just the the question i have for them going forward is i just don't see how they really get above fifth or sixth in any season and that i don't know what you do i'll change that i'll tell you how okay how the sheer force of quince niders angry face glare is worth four wins if you want to argue that quince citer is one of the best coaches in the league you don't find a way to get them up the third like that's certainly the best someone above them will take an injury quince citer by the sheer force of his eyeballs top five sure okay there you go fun let's finish on damian lillard because holy smokes has there been a lot of damian lillard discourse in the last 24 hours say peaking with us about the last week well it peaked i think yesterday what a thursday july six was yesterday um well which had a big story that came out in which you reported accurately that airing good win damian lillard's agent was calling teams that were not the Miami heat and just being like hey you should probably not trade for damian he wants to go to Miami he's gonna be pissed off if you trade for him stand down and then airing good win did a thing that i don't remember any agent doing going on the record with the Miami herald and being like yeah i'm calling other teams until i'm not to trade for damian lillard because he wants to go to the Miami heat and that's the only place he wants to go and now we have this specter of like is he gonna be unhappy if anybody but Miami trades for him is he gonna do the unthinkable and not report does any team despite the years on his contract have faith enough in their own infrastructure to trade for a guy trade a lot more than Miami can offer for a guy who has told them do not do that i don't want to come to your city i want to go to south beach i want to have no state taxes i want to play with jimmy i want to play with bam will any team actually offer greater than Miami's offer in that circumstance and then the follow up dialogue has been well is is dame and airing good win is this unfair to the blazers and then they have the other so i really know the blazers betrayed dame by not upgrading at the draft the way no damn is betraying the blazers by doing this that and the other thing i find the whole dialogue sort of overheated but i wonder if you have had any sort of reactions to the last 24 hours of overheated damion lilyard noise um i mean no not really because i've not really i think it's all noise for a reason i i guess the thing i've been confused about from the beginning is everybody's acting like the heat have literally nothing to trade and i think the heat not everybody well i i think the heat's offered pretty decent like if you end up with tally hero duncan robinson two to three first depending on if you change the protection on the the picks so don't call him a city and you know hyme hawk as in the coli ovech like to me that's fine like that's a perfectly fine return for a guy who is going to be 33 is owed 200 million dollars is playing in a league where a ton of teams already have point guards and when there's just not a there's not a lot of teams that can offer a ton to trade for anybody at the moment and b there's not a lot of teams looking to trade for this archetype of player right now i mean to me there's only two teams that really make sense to trade for them one is philly where i think their preference or private to just have james hard and come back and run this thing back and the other is my amy and everybody else i just don't see i just don't see where this frothing market's going to come from like like you know taming man made i'll bring the other day on our pod that the jazz to try to trade for him i don't think that really makes any sense people have mentioned the spurs as a team that you trade for him i don't think that makes any sense like these teams that have that you know you the Oklahoma city has all these assets they have shago the south zander who right now is probably just better than game and it's certainly going to be better going forward and doesn't make sense for them to trade for him so you look around and it's like okay there's a couple teams that can trade for him it's not the same as trading for Kevin Durant or as you talked about the other day like the idea that the the reed go barren dot of the michael packages are coming back anytime soon for anybody outside of maybe one or two players is just not going to happen there's been a market correction on that as adrian said a bunch of times and i just i've just been sort of confused as to the general conversation around what my amy has to offer because i don't it's being treated like it's what bradley bill was acquired for from the sons and i i just don't think that's the case i mean i've been saying this for a week the word i have landed on is palatable i don't think it's good i don't think it's great i don't think the blazers would feel like the net's felt when they got all they got for Kevin Durant which is like boom new direction we're loaded let's go but if i get hero or say i flip hero for a good first in three good seconds what i'm okay sure so hero jovich hakez there are two most recent first round picks let's say i play the leverage game well enough that they do have to amend the pick the other funder and i get three more that's three more plus a fourth for hero in this theoretical scenario plus the last two guys you drafted just like six first round picks and i keep saying this you can assume all you want that the heats 20 28 and 20 20 30 i was gonna say 20 20 30 20 28 and 20 30 unprotected first round picks are BS picks because the heat are never bad and pat Riley always wants to compete you can assume that i think that assumption is a total unknown there's there's a non-zero and maybe like some amount of good chance that one of those picks becomes a real pick can i get a swap in there as well that it that increases my probability of catching the heat in a down year the heat have had down years they will have down years again those picks are so far out in the wilderness Damien Lillard's 33 Jimmy Butler's 32 Bam is amazing i am the driver of the Bam wagon he is not by himself going to make a team of 45 win team at any point in his career those picks have much more upside than people are giving them credit for i put all that together and you know whatever the other salary filler is palatable is where i land is it what they got for Durant no is it is it the greatest trade return ever no is it even what you would have hoped for a year ago if you did this thought exercise what could we get for Damien Lillard no but it's not garbage it's not nothing it's palatable and i don't know who will beat it maybe nobody will end up beating it and my other thing is on all this noise i don't really think anybody is wrong is that okay for me to say like i don't think it's wrong that the blazers are trying to get the best package possible and playing a pretty clear leverage game to try to get somebody to offer up something better than Miami has and i don't think it's wrong for Damien Lillard to send out signals like Anthony Davis did and many other players have done say i want to go here and i don't want to go here and i don't want to go here and i don't want to go here and i'm not going to be happy in those places everything is a trade off when Damien Lillard signed the mega max extension with the blazers that runs for three or four more years he traded away his ability to pick his team unfettered that's just part of the deal i'm sorry if that's like uncomfortable to say in 2023 in terms of labor relations and whatever like i'm generally pro player but in signing that contract you traded away your complete unfettered ability to pick your team that's part of the deal that's what the contract is for that's what the money is for to some degree the money is mostly for the fact that you're amazing at basketball he and what he's doing is trying to pick his own team anyway and that's totally fine here's the reality it's harder now because you're under contract and that's okay too it's okay for it to be hard because the blazers don't necessarily want to trade you to that particular team unless that particular team offers you everything and it's okay for Damien Lillard to be like i really want to go to that team and i'm going to try to poison the market for everyone else and get to that team and the reality is in totality for everyone involved is it's unpleasant and it's going to take a while and that's the tradeoff of that contract for everybody involved it's unpleasant it's going to take a while and it may still if not is probably going to still end up with Damien Lillard in my image it's just unpleasant and that's just the reality i don't think anyone is really wrong here i don't think this is a betrayal i don't think oh Damien Lillard has lit all his goodwill on fire no he hasn't he's just doing what he wants to do the blazers are doing what they want to do this is all part of the deal that results from that contract yeah i i i certainly don't think anyone's doing anything wrong from that standpoint and i also would say that you know if i was philly or one of these other teams if i was interested in dame i would not be thinking twice about trading for him because the idea that Damien Lillard of all people is not going to show up to play with joelle and bead i find to be and that's the third party that's the third party involved the third party is team x y and z who wants Damien Lillard in theory and reality whatever it's on you to to sell him on your vision and to make him happy enough that he would actually go there and play well this is just reality like it's it's unpleasant and hard for everyone so go do the hard work of it well yeah and i also like dame is long we consider one of the best guys in the league the idea that like let's say philly because i think that's the only other really realistic shooter if like he gets traded philly as a chance to play with joelle and bead what's he gonna do say i you know i don't think so i'm gonna sit at home and not play i mean come on like i just don't it's just that that's a that's a ludicrous position if like if we're talking about Kyrie Irving like sure who knows what kyrie would do in that kind of situation but that's also why kyrie had no suitors really six months ago right like or last summer when he tried to do a sign and trade like the dame is one of the best guys in the league he's as rock solid a person as as we have seen in the league and i yeah like everybody's doing what they're trying to do to get the best outcome for themselves here that's how the stuff works but i certainly wouldn't i don't really buy the threat of him like not showing up or not being a professional or not being awesome because that's who dame and when it's been for the past eleven years and i don't think that's gonna change so i don't want to go through all the teams because i did that with hollanger the other day i will say on utah and the spurs i agree with you that it's um not the most realistic endpoint i only think those teams dive in if the price is to the point where it's like oh that's all like what then fine like well but i just don't buy that's the case because like again that this is where i don't understand the Miami stuff like Miami's offer is fine it's a it's a perfectly good offer it's not great it's not anything it's a turkey sandwich it's it's a dry turkey sandwich like it'll it'll fulfill you you put some mustard on it it's like eat it's edible it's fine but i think it's i think it's perfectly fine that yes i think it's good and again i i don't think enough has been made of the fact that there's reasons why there's not fifteen teams lining up the trade for dame he's a small guard who's never been great on defense who has a ton of money owed to him and is going to be 33 like this isn't trading for prime lebron and i'm not trying to knock it as i said i love day two days ago it's not trading for kevin de rant last year he's not kevin de rant right and he's an awesome player and if he ends up with a team like failure Miami it would be a hand in glove fit and would be fantastic i've said on i've said publicly i think if he ends up in Miami they have the best big three in the league then with him jimmy and bam i think they fit together perfectly and you look at that Miami team in the playoffs what do they need they needed a guy like Damien Thiller to go out there and get buckets in the fourth quarter of these playoff games when their offense would bog down like that's he's exact and stretch defenses five feet further yes absolutely he's exactly what they need it and would be an incredible fit there and obviously you know all the hashtag he culture nonsense like he he fits the vibe of their team and it it makes a ton of sense and would be a great trade for them if they could pull it off but the price if like said it yeah like you tar sanatone or these other teams will get involved that the price gets so low that oh man we have to just jump on this and do it i just don't see any world where they're realistically the price is going to be really low enough where my where the blaze like to me if it got that to that point the blazers would be out of spite not trading him to Miami which to me doesn't make a lot of sense so let me ask you this to end you mentioned philly repeatedly yep you can't really do this but leaving aside the james hard and fiasco is to buy his hair so and by that i mean let's assume they can meant let's just for the sake of this assume that they can mend fences well i'll just stop you there because i think if they've been fences within they're not getting day so i don't i don't think they're gonna end up with both of them pretend james harden just retires to go around the world with michael rubin and go to parties where people have to dress in a different color every party sure is to buy his hair is tyris maxi i mean they don't have a not i can stop it and one protected philly pay is that better than my amy's offer no it's not you know i mean the way that again the way philly gets involved with this is if they turn james ardent into a bunch of different things and then they could package those things with tyris maxi and send them on to portland like if it's you know they get a couple first round picks from the clippers with terrence man and expirings and then they turn around they give all that with maxi and you get three first round picks and maxi and man and expirings i maybe then you can argue that's a better deal for portland because maxi's probably the best asset on the board and he's not on a long-term deal right now in theory these younger teams would potentially give you a good amount for tyris maxi if you don't want to have him on your team because he is really good and young and so on his rookie deal and you could have him with your group long term if you are one of these young teams a lot of assets you would make a lot of sense to go after but like again we're talking about you got to go through like several steps here right like it that's not a simple transaction and i think philly you know especially given the long-standing relationships between daremory and james ardent some of the other people involved here i think philly would probably prefer to just run this back with james ardent and and have him there and then see what they do next summer which to go all the way back to the beginning of the de jame ira discussion part of the reason i was so surprised that he took this extension was there are not a lot of good for aids available next summer and i find it very hard to believe that this contract would not have been available this time next year if not significantly more money so it's interesting that he signed this deal now and you know from philly standpoint if they do if they don't make a damn trade he doesn't end up in my army say and they do bring back james ardent which i am starting to think more and more is the more likely outcome than i'm getting traded for not very much somewhere else um you know you're in a situation now where the sixers are very clearly trying to load up for all this cap space next summer to side players and for agency and that's a pretty risky game to play in a market that's not my amy it's not la it's not a place where guys have like the best free agents they've ever signed or what like elton brand maybe after the you know the fiasco with the clippers that didn't turn out great like they've never it's never been a destination that has attracted for agents and yeah they have juel they'll have tires maxi but that's an awfully risky game to play when you've got joe lebede in his prime and you're basically saying our best opportunity here is to have james ardent come back on an expiring deal keep to buy us on an expiring deal and then go try to sign some combination of you know paul jorge juholiday pascal siakum whoever next summer when you might not get any of those guys none of them might even get to forated sea and then what do you do well some of those those could three guys are really good and oh I agree if like if they get two of them sure but like you know there's a lot of ifsans that bots even between now and that is out like they're guaranteed to walk away with two of those guys y'all you know I'm glad you mentioned the clippers because the two clippers extensions hovering overall this is or something of a mystery but yeah the idea that filly was going to prioritize cap space in any james hard and trade which would in theory and parole the notion of taking norm paul's twenty million dollars back onto their books maybe that becomes slightly less of a concern with one of the big free agents off the board um but i'm glad that you mentioned all of this because a lot of the filly lillard discussion and the idea that the sixers need to go all in to get Damien lillard ignores the harden reality and you just outlined the three team trade that i've talked about a lot on this podcast with harden to the clippers dame to the sixers a bunch of stuff to the blazers i guess in that scenario just clear in your version of it that you just outlined this Tobias Harris stay with the sixers yes so that matters because Tobias Harris although he's quote unquote overpaid on a forty million dollar contract is a very good player he's a good player and he's better than a crumble cookie i've never had a crumble cookie i don't even know what they are but he's been i was in all time that was an all-time line by Tobias there's a really good guy and great guy i i i thoroughly enjoyed that and he but he's a good player and the reason that matters is because other than some really smart coverage in the philadelphia media i just haven't seen enough people put the pieces together where it sounds sexy to say all in for lillard all in for lillard all in for lillard maxi for lillard what are you thinking it's tyrie's maxi and it's damian lillard of course you trade him for that one but in a lot of these scenarios what you're really saying is maxi and harden out lillard in and does that so your entire starting back court the older guy who's disgruntled and the younger guy who's awesome and going to be awesome or soon out one guy back in pj tucker may go out in some of these deals like you're sending a lot of talent out the door does that really make you demonstrably better and i think in all the exuberance over the idea of lillard and be playing together the talent drain out the door has not really been well understood or well discussed and just even in the simple even in the scenario you outline the reality of to buy his hair is staying is actually like a big deal i'm not even sure the scenarios in play but i just don't think i think a lot of the national discussion about whether philly should get lillard or try really hard to get lillard has ignored the roster challenges of actually doing it yeah i mean in that scenario they'd have a starting five of damian lillard d'Anthony melton to buy his hair is pj tucker and joelle and bead which i think would be pretty awesome and i i think they'd have a chance to win with that group and i would be excited about having that team if i was philly if i could walk away from this with those five guys i would do it i wouldn't really think twice about it however you know like you said there's a lot of there's a whole lot of ground to cover between here and there i don't think they're going to wind up getting that done ultimately and yeah i mean like i said you just look at how they've operated this summer everybody and their brother is getting a player option this summer basically every player on the market that don't basically the only two guys that happen are mo bomba and patch of Beverly who both sign one year minimum deals in philly they didn't keep Georgian yang they didn't keep shake melton we'll see what happens to paul read bunches harrow re-sign on a one year deal too like they they're very clearly diligently sticking to this plan of having cap space next summer and maybe that'll work but sort of like what we saw in portland this past year they even if let's say they even keep james hard they go in the next season they got james it to buy us unexpiring deals and it's hey we're gonna have all this cap space next summer and this is the plan like okay let's see what let's see what that nets out because if they strike out and for agency next summer and they don't have anything and they're already pretty encumbered on picks they're not going to have a lot of picks to trade they can only trade one now i think they could trade two next summer they're just sitting there with tyris and joelle and sort of a blank canvas around them you know that's where you start to wonder about the future of this team and where they're headed and so it's it's a very high risk strategy that appears they're trying to take and you know if they get named sure that team makes a lot of sense and could be really good if they don't you know there's there's a lot of questions that are going to be asked you've outlined all the different paths really nicely there and why Tobias Harris is actually not just sort of a forgotten person in these in outlined in these paths. Tim bontems enjoy victor's debut tonight in vegas i will see you out there in about 48 hours. awesome thank you for your time you can listen to him twice a week on the hoop collective brine win horse and the hoop collective you can read him all the time at espn you can see him all over television in our seaport studio mr bontems thank you sir anytime man thank you for having