485: Copy-Proof Your Products! How To Prevent Evil Sellers From Stealing Your IP With Steve Weigler

You're listening to the MyWifeKitterJout podcast, the place where I bring on successful bootstrap business owners and delve deeply into what strategies are working and what strategies are not with their businesses. Today, I'm thrilled to have my friend Steve Weigler back on the show, and Steve is the owner of Emerge Council, where he helps e-commerce entrepreneurs protect their intellectual property. And last time when he was on, the Chinese copycat problem on Amazon was at a control. And while there still is rampant piracy and IP theft on the platform, Steve now has a pretty cool strategy for taking down the pirates, which we'll talk about in this episode. But before we begin, I wanted to give a quick shout out to Chase Diamond for sponsoring this episode. The Chase is my go-to guy when it comes to email marketing and he runs a successful email marketing agency over at Structured Agency, which caters to many eight and nine figure e-commerce brands. Now for those of you who can't afford to hire an agency, Chase offers a pretty good email marketing course if you want to learn how to do email yourself. And this course can be found over at mywifequitterjob.com slash Chase. Once again, that's mywifequitterjob.com slash C-H-A-S-E. I also want to thank Emerge Council for sponsoring this episode that if you sell an Amazon or run any online business for that matter, the most important aspect of your long-term success will be your brand. And this is why I work with Steve and Weigler and his team from Emerge Council to protect my brand over at Bumblebee Linnons. Now what's unique about Emerge Council is that Steve focuses his legal practice on e-commerce and provides strategic and legal representation to entrepreneurs to protect their IP. For example, if you've ever been ripped off or knocked off on Amazon, then Steve can help you fight back and protect yourself. And then students in my class have used Steve for cooperating their designs, policing against counterfeits and knockoffs, vendor agreements, brand registry, you name it. So if you need IP protection services, go to EmergeCouncil.com and get a free console. And if you tell Steve that I sent you, you'll get a 100 dollar discount. That's Emerge Council, e-m-e-r-g-e-c-o-u-n-s-e-l.com. Now on to the show. intro Music Welcome to the My wife, Clutterjob podcast. Today I am thrilled to have Steve and Weigler back on the show for the second time. Steve is someone who I met back in 2016 through an attendee of seller summit, and I've used his legal services ever since. He's actually spoken on my event several times, and he's basically the go-to guy that I use when it comes to intellectual property protection, copyrights, trademarks, you name it, and he's helped a number of the students in my class as well. Steve is the founder of EmergeCouncil.com where he helps e-commerce entrepreneurs protect their IP. And the reason why I brought him on the pod today is because I've been getting a lot of questions regarding the different levels of IP protection that are necessary to run an e-commerce business. I'm not a lawyer, I'm not qualified to answer those questions, but Steve is. So what we're gonna talk about today is just kind of like the different levels of prevention and protection, depending on what your budget is, how much things cost, and what you can do to prevent IP theft. And with that, welcome to show Steve, how you doing, Amanda? Everything's good, it's always good to see you, Steve. Always good to see you too. So I know you do this for a living. What's the latest in IP litigation on Amazon right now that just based on your experiences? Well, the coolest thing that's happening on, it's kind of cool, is, and it's kind of changed my opinion a little bit, is Amazon started a patent mediation process. And so I used to be really very not bullish about getting a patent because it's so expensive to enforce. But if you believe someone's violating your patent on Amazon, there's actually, they built in an arbitration process that not only if you file a complaint with Amazon, they'll assign an arbitrator to it, resolve it relatively quickly and inexpensively, and award you fees and potentially, the amount of money that are sitting in the infringers account. So that's a big deal and a change of my position on the importance of a patent. Interesting, so how much does it cost for this mediation to take place? Well, first, and we're gonna talk about this a little bit. Yeah. Guys, everyone, and I've preached this all the time, is everyone has to have a strategy, everyone has to have a plan. And if you can include in your plan and it's worthwhile to patent something, you have to first patent it before you get out of the gate, before you issue the product or offer the product on Amazon or another platform or your own platform. And if you have that patent in hand, it's a very inexpensive process. It's the cost of a patent litigator and the cost of, I believe the Amazon fee is relatively low. I believe it, this is all a work in progress for Amazon, but I believe it's about a thousand dollars. Oh, that's really interesting. And finding a patent litigator, just call me and I'll find you and we'll get, quote, on how much, obviously, if you're talking about the next cure for cancer and a chemical patent dispute, you're talking about a multi-thousand dollars into the hundreds of thousands. If you're talking about a clipboard design, we're talking about a lot less money. So if it's obvious, and we can go through the strategy a little bit, but chances are, you're not going to have much opposition on the other side. It's not like you're going to, and they're a stranger, if it's so obvious, they're probably not going to show off. Right, right. Well, I don't want to get into the weeds. But what I want to get out of today's episode, really, is like just different choices that an e-commerce entrepreneur has when just deciding what level of IP protection that they want, depending on how much they're willing to pay. So what I'm hoping to do today is, just for you to assign different packages. So let's just start with like the basics. Like what is like the bare minimum that you would recommend a serious e-commerce entrepreneur get for a product that they're launching on Amazon, for example? Sure. So let's, I'm going to answer that in a little long answer. OK. So number one thing is, what's your strategy? What's your plan? And so Stephen, I usually don't talk about this, but I've been doing a lot of business transactional work at the exit side. And so I have about seven deals right now stacked up where entrepreneurs are exiting. And if you're exiting, well, you need to show that you have a, to an aggregator or whatever. You need to show that you have an IP plan, that you protect a trademark copy right, whatever it is. So you started at the beginning. It's like, are you thinking about selling five items and giving it a code, and you're not sure about your brand, you're not sure about the experience, and you might move on to another product? Then the answer is like, well, maybe spend some business time figuring that out. But we talked about a serious entrepreneur, meaning one that really has a business plan, at least in their head, and really wants to bring it to market. And so it's very, at the beginning, at least, it's relatively inexpensive to protect the basics of IP. So to protect the basics of IP, you have to understand what the IP is. So trademark's protect brands. So my brand is Emerge Console. It's a legal services firm. I'm looking at a box of Cheerios right now that brand is Cheerios, and you can pick close your eyes, picture it, you know what Cheerios look like, and you know what the box looks like. It's yellow, and it has a Cheerio on the back. So that's all brand. That's how the customer perceives a good and service. That's a really important piece of protection. Copyright protects originally. Before we move on from there, I think most people are familiar with trademarks because it's required for Amazon brand registry. However, a question I do commonly get asked is, do I need the word brand as well as the logo trademark, as well as the logo trademark? What are your opinions on that? I am not a big advocate of getting a logo trademark. And so when we're talking about, let's pause a trademark, because I think it's the most important type of protection. And I've been working a lot of times with IP litigators, and they think when it comes time to do a take-down, or we do take-down too, or file a lawsuit, the way the trademark statutes are written and the broad protection you get, it's a very powerful form of protection to get to a factory to go. So a trademark protects a good or a service, and the protection is so broad. So if I tell you Cheerios, and it's just the word, that protection includes any element of Cheerios that includes Cheerios in a logo, it includes Cheerios on a commercial, it includes visual, any type. So the broadest form of protection is just getting the literal element of the mark, the words. And that costs, so we have a total TM package, and that entire thing costs about $1,000, including a thorough search to see if you're reaching someone's common law rights. And $350 of USPTO fees. So that whole entire brand protection experience can cost as low as $13,000. Another question real quick, and I've been just asked this recently, if someone wants to have a brand, but the trademark is already taken for a different product type, do you recommend that they just choose another name? Well, it's going to say, let's say my brand is selling clipboards, but there's another person who has the trademark selling like dog supplies. No, I think, listen, to preface, I don't charge for calls to get to know my clients and also to answer types of questions like that. So for example, if you had a brand called Pure, and you were a water sales in water sales, and Pure was, and I was thinking about demo services, those marks aren't going to conflict in commerce. And if you look up Pure on the USPTO, there's plenty of peers, even in the same category of international registration. So the question is, do you think those goods and services are going to cross in commerce? And the answer is probably not. And how common is the word that you're talking about? So if we're like a Cheerios, yes, Cheerios would have a lot of protection. It's been around a long time. And it's a unique product. Everyone closes their eyes. And they know exactly what that is. When it comes to most brands, that's not the case. And so it kind of requires a little bit of a fine here a distinction. Not it. It's something that somebody just call me and I'll answer it five minutes. OK. All right. It's mostly just bailing. That's not a good idea. By the way, are you going in order of priority here? So trademark is probably your top priority. I think, yes. I think if you put together all the tea leaves, and it always depends on what your goals are, but trademark is the number one strategy, yes. And it's also to answer that initial question, like this goal right now for what we're talking about. It's just like someone who is selling online and just wants like the minimum amount of protection. They haven't thought it through. Like the plan is to provide some level of protection, but not go crazy with it. Because they're not 100% sure that this product is going to completely take off just shit. Yes. And so there's two levels. So the process starts with call me. We run free knockouts. So we have software that we pay a gazillion dollars for through Thompson Reuters. And we can do a basic determination if anyone is registered that mark. OK. Then. And so that's called brand clearance. You want to make sure, even if you're just testing the waters, dipping your toe in, and even if you don't feel like registering on the brand registry, do do a brand clearance. Because the next thing you know, you could get a cease and desist letter. And some of these big companies, especially, aren't very nice. They might tell you cease and desist and pay them $5,000 or something. And then you cease and desist, and you don't pay them the $5,000. And you still keep on hearing from them. And you got to hire an attorney to negotiate them. That's what the price goes on. I see. OK. Even people like me don't want to do that. It's so fun. Right. So the bare minimum is to actually do a search, right? To see if you're a search we just free at least any merge console. It's not free everywhere. But yeah. So let's do your own search. But it's not as good as our search. Let's use this clipboard example that we were talking about before we hit record. Like let's say we design a novel new way of designing a clipboard. Maybe like it's got some extra clips. Whatever it's an unusual type of clipboard. That isn't really being sold. How would you go about protecting that? Let's say I was worried about like the Chinese manufacturer taking the design and selling it as their own on Amazon or someone else just taking it, creating it and selling it. What would be your yeah? Yeah, I get it. Well, the number one thing is to dissect what the unique elements of your brand or product that are under the brand are. And so if it's something like you have a unique clip that's designed uniquely, I'll give you an example, not in a clipboard, but in like Apple iPods. They don't, it's not that the functions unique. It's not like the sound is you're hearing some like ultra-high frequency or something. It's their earpods. But the way they're designed is very unique. And so they have a design, many design patterns on that packaging for the Apple iPods. So the same thing holds true for if you have a unique clipboard that has a really unique design, that's functional. Then on the design pattern would be appropriate before you get out the gate. That cost is about, you know, again, it's like call me. I look at it, I tell you if it's viable for nothing. And then if it is, pursuing a design pattern process between two and three thousand dollars, because you have to get technical drawings and it's a pain in the body. So you would go the pattern, like that, I mean, most people, if they design like a clipboard, for example, when would you think it's worth it to fork over the two or three K for a pattern versus like the copyrights, which I kind of interrupted you earlier? Yeah, so most people do not, it's interesting. I see usually the people that call me that have like unique clipboard with unique clip are engineers. So they're like inventors. Most people are have unique color schemes, unique pricing structures, something else that's unique about their value proposition as opposed to another. So looking at clipboards, right before the show, I looked at seven names, I just looked up clipboards. There's Sunny, Hurtkey, Hungria, Tradequest, and of course Amazon Basics, and then Office Depot. So it's actually a brand of Office Depot that's an offering. So what would make you want to buy one over the other? So some had unique color schemes. Some had the brand, it imprinted into the clipboard. Some did have clips, but nothing overly unique. It just was a better way to organize a clipboard maybe. And then some had like a recognizable brand name, like Amazon Basics. So the question is like, what do you need to distinguish your brand so the dogs, meaning the consumers, will eat the dog food? And a lot of times that's just gonna be a better brand experience. So it might be a color scheme. It might be a design, can it, with a logo? And a logo can be copy-rided. And so that's also a very low cost approach. So the brand is obviously people are gonna buy. If I saw these, I'd probably buy something, I'd probably buy all the Office Depot one, because I know that brand. If all prices were the same, I've never heard of Sun E-E-S-U-N-E. And I don't know, I don't know what, unless the prices were substantially different, I would probably go for the look and feel. And so the look and feel can be protected a lot of times through copy-write. Through copy-write. To copy-write this clipboard that you're looking at right now, how much are we talking about? So, and we're talking steep, only about the United States, right now. Right, it's about 350 dollars. Okay, and what does that protection get you? Like if someone sells something that looks similar to it, but not an exact copy, is that protected, or does it have to be like an exact copy? The United, there's a seven factor test that the courts use. But it, because it protects original works of our, if you would want to look to see if anything that looks original has even been modified from that originality and you have a good case. Looking at the practical element of that, why would you get a copy-write application? It's not, none of this is to run to court. This is about effectuating takedowns, effectuating good strategies for infringement. Because it's like everything else. Once you, at the beginning, it's like, well, I'm not thinking about that. No one's gonna be infringing on me. Then you start getting to the top of the pile or you set, if you shop at the eyesight, start getting to the top of the search engine, that's when infringement really starts to kick in and it kicks in in a big way. And so you're gonna wanna have strategies that you can, you know, say, hey, I'm gonna effectuate a takedown on a Amazon. And how you do that is you send, you have to send in a registration certificate. I see. And so the registration certificate, you know, that process costs about $350 and then you fill out a form and you hope that that will take down the infringement and that the infringers, you know, minor league and nothing else will happen. So, you know, all of this you guys is a ticket to entry. Like, right, no protection, no ticket to entry. And a lot of times it's like, those types of calls, it's like, well, I understand that, you know, raw entrepreneurs were trying to save money and increase the bottom line. But, no, if you don't go through any of this, you're not gonna be able to take down anything. Right, so this is par for the course, basically, if you ever wanna, okay. So I'd say, you know, Steve, most people don't have something that's worthy of a design patent and most, most people, unless you have the care for cancer or something, don't have a particularly viable utility patent claim, meaning they don't have real invention. And, you know, frankly, it's hard to market an invention because no one's ever heard of. It's an invention, no one's ever heard of it before. So that's usually a different type of entrepreneur than an e-commerce entrepreneur. So then it just becomes a trademark is a must and I think the literal element's the most important and really, you know, running by me, or running by the member of my team, just, okay, what's unique about your product and the look and feel and can we get any of that copy, right? And then you have your ticket to entry, you know, when you're talking about a max, like $2,000 to $2,500, price point, it depends on, you know, if you have multiple types of clipboards, you might have, you know, 20 designs, well, you know, it's 350 times 20, it doesn't, there's no real cost savings. So, you know, everyone's different, but then we would look at, well, you know, that red with a dot on it is really not that unique. Well, let's put that low priority. And so we'll help you get, like, we want to help you save money because it's no value to just copyright everything under the sun. If you haven't picked up my Wall Street Journal bestselling book, The Family First Entrepreneur Yet, then now is the time. My book will teach you how to achieve financial freedom by starting a business that doesn't require you to work yourself to death. After all, most online business gurus constantly preach that you have to hustle, hustle, and hustle some more just to get ahead. Well, guess what? It turns out that you can achieve financial success without being a stranger to your kids. You can make good money and have the freedom to enjoy it, and you don't have to work 80 hours a week and be a slave to your business just to make it all work. I will teach you how to start a business from the perspective of a parent who makes both business and family work. Not only that, but I made it a no-brainer to grab the book because I'm still giving out $690 and free bonuses. And here's what you get. You get instant access to my three-day print on-demand workshop. In this workshop, I'll teach you exactly how to get started running a print on-demand e-commerce store, and I provide you with a free website theme as well. You also get access to my two-day passive income workshop where I'll teach you how to make money with blogging, podcasting, or YouTube. Go to mywifekitterjob.com slash book and ascending the bonuses right away. Once again, that's mywifekitterjob.com slash book. Now back to the show. When does it make sense to patent because to me, you have to get the patent before you even start selling, right? And if patent takes a while to get, is that... Yeah, I think in an ideal world, if you're not apreneur and you wanna visit this at the very beginning to see if you have something that has a unique design, especially with this new Amazon scheme to evaluate. And so I think it's important to do it early. Sometimes you have up to a year after the issuance of the product into market to obtain that patent. But I think it's good to... And then if you don't do it at the beginning, well, again, it's not like your life's over. It's just a strategy that we might have to revisit on your newest design. Okay, and if you go to the patent route, you were saying $3,000 minimum to get that process started. It always seems that way, yeah. Depending on... Yeah, so you know what? I personally, I don't... I'm not licensed to practice patent. We have people who do it. But they... So it's an interesting field because it depends if you're coming to me and most of your clients are. But if you're coming to me with a computer program, it's one person. If you're coming to me with a chemical, it's another. If you're coming to me with just a basic industrial design, it's a much cheaper person. So it just depends on what the patent is. What's the timeframe approximately that you would expect to get this thing done? So you can start selling. Well, so the cool thing about everything but copy, right, is the moment you file protection goes back to that day. Okay. So the important thing is to get it filed, not so much to get it branded. Including... So that's what's cool about also Amazon brand registry. We just need to get you the serial number to get on brand registry. It used to be that you had to get it registered or use their, what is it called, IP... Accelerator program, yeah. Accelerator, which, you know, we get a lot of business because if that got screwed up, so be careful on the accelerator. But anyway, the... What do we talk about timeframe to get it filed, a patent filed, just bought part? A patent or a trademark we're looking, a trademark we're looking at less than a week to get the search done and filed for a patent. And a patent we're looking at maybe two weeks. Oh, okay, that's not it. So we work fast. Okay. And the way we've done that is systemize everything and keep the cost down because we've systemized it. Okay. So in my opinion, correct me if I'm wrong, we've kind of talked about the basics here already. When does it make sense to protect yourself in a country like China, for example? Well, that's a really good question. And one that can be granular or not. You gotta look at what your nexus is with China. Meaning if you're a lot of people are coming out with unique designs and then their manufacturer and sometimes even their distributor is based out of China, like it's dropshipping out of China. So at that point, China becomes a very important part of your strategy and it's very inexpensive to get the work that we've done in the United States duplicated in China. And so you gotta keep in mind that China is not a big fan of enforcing American laws, right? They don't mind if, I think it's a myth that they don't enforce their own laws, they do. And sometimes very harshly. So we have relationships with Chinese council and we're gonna evaluate if it's, and we can do some of this work. And we will evaluate what the cheapest way is to effectuate the same strategy we've used in the United States to make sure we have the protection in that trade chain. Because a lot of times what's happening is infringement on the trademark side and on the copyright side. And sometimes even on the downside is happening on like Alibaba or it's happening through the manufacturer that the manufacturer is running your run plus 100% more that they're distributing either under that brand name or the same brand name. And it's really, we've had quite been quite successful in using a strategy number, but the strategy of them and how to take that down. But the strategy has to involve, it's now no different than the United States. No Chinese protection, no strategy. Like I don't know what else to tell. Well, let me ask you this. If you have all those protections in the US and someone, some Chinese factory decides to take your design and sell it to somebody else, you can get the listing taken down the US. So what is the advantage of nipping it at the source versus when it actually gets sold? And what are the trade-offs and actually getting that additional protection in China? Well, I think it's a fallacy that a lot of times unfortunately, that a takedown's gonna take care of your problem. Because what's happening is that these are, if you're lucky, you've found somebody that maybe is sitting in their apartment or their house in China and it's one person and they're just finding low-hanging fruit and it just happens to be you. But unfortunately, it's like money laundering. It's not, it's a sophisticated scheme. And so a lot of times you can't even, you don't even know when you see the takedown, you're looking at the tip of the iceberg of the issues that you're really potentially facing in China. So a lot of these people are very, our organizations are very sophisticated crimes into kids. And so I hope a takedown works and a lot of my clients can do takedowns by themselves. They don't even need me. I mean, it's good to keep me in the loop, but it's no cause. It's like, okay, great. I hope that works. But a lot of times it takedown, it just pops up under another brand, another name, another, it might show up on another website. It might show up on their own Shopify site. It's just sophisticated. And so the strategy is always gonna be, how can we get the message to the infringer, which is usually a criminal or, I call it a criminal or a torsious organization in China that you don't wanna be screwing on with us, you wanna be screwing on them. I would prefer you not to do it at all, but leave us alone because we're gonna go after you. And so that's the exact frame that we look at all our China cases. What, how are we gonna send that message and how are we gonna do it as cheap as possible? But you need some protection in China to do it because they're not kinda, they don't care about the American. It doesn't have any ramification. Are there the same protections in China or analogous as to the ones we just talked about in the US? Yeah, and without getting into international relations class, China's more administrative, so they, and we tend to be use our legal systems more, so they use administrative law. But yes, it's very much, it's a similar scheme, similar laws, similar system, and we even have treaties and protocols with China on how to handle it. But most importantly, you wanna work with an attorney as a good relationship with Chinese council, and we work with Chinese council to build the same, we have the same processes and work together a lot. So how I tell my clients as far as cost, it's like, all right, if it was $1,000 in the United States to protect it, it's $1,000 in China, because it's the same process, it's the same thing. And so, and a lot of times it's even less. So once we have a strategy to effectuate that strategy, you gotta look at, their copyright process is a little more expensive than ours, so it's a little more like $500, and ours is $350, and their trademark process, $8.95, and ours is $1,000. But you know, I just like, by the time everything is set and done, it's like $1,000, $1,000, $1,000. So if you wanna have three protections here, you wanna, you wanna do the same in China, it's $6,000. So walk me through this, so let's say I have this clipboard design. I'm a little nervous about having this factory make it. It's my design, I don't want them selling it to other people or creating it for anyone other than myself, even under a different brand. What do I need to get? Sure. So there's one area of intellectual property that we have in cover, and that's called the trade secret. And so, a lot of, this is an area where a lot of e-commerce sellers, they're heads not in this place, is you have a relationship, and if you were in the United States, you would sign a contract, and you would have a contract, and it would include an exclusivity provision, and it would include that this clip we're providing, and maybe the die-casting were buying from you, is trade secret. And we don't want this distributed anyone else. That's kind of a no-brainer if you did it in the United States. In China, you can do the same thing. And so, we work with Chinese Council, so the first step is to work with Chinese Council, and get it translated into Mandarin, put an international arbitration clause in it, wave some U.N. clauses, so it's international. Anyway, write an international contract that we have a form of, it's not like this hasn't been done before, and get it signed by both parties. Then you can enforce trade secret protection in China, so that's a really a piece that a lot of entrepreneurs miss, but a lot of entrepreneurs are buying on Alibaba, and just buying the clipboards, that's not gonna work in that, because that's just wholesale Amazon. So, that's number one. Number two is... Before we move on, so this trade secret, it's an agreement that you would draft up, and then the factory would sign it as well as you, and it becomes like a legal document that you can use to enforce that they don't sell to anyone else. Is that accurate? If anyone else take your die cuts, and just give you a thumb to any partners or affiliates, because it's really interesting, Steven, in China, what we get is, every time we hire Chinese consul to have a discussion, like a door knocking, like, hey, we think you're violating intellectual property of our clients, it's recorded, because they don't have the same laws, so they record it, and then they translate it into English for us. And so, and this is all next to no cost. It's a very, it's not a very linear discussion, like we would maybe have in the United States. Like, if you own me money, and I called you, and as I steeped pay me the money, that would be a, I might say, how's your family, and then you own me money. But the, in China, it really is like, it's quite a different cultural experience, discussing disputes, and so you really, it's very beneficial to have that contract, but also have experienced Chinese consul can really explain that. How much are we talking about to set that up? Everything seems like it's a thousand bucks. Okay. All right, no, no, no. Translating is 300, having them make the call, they charge like, I don't know, $200 an hour, you know, it's really cheap. I mean, is that even more valuable than getting the trademark in the copyright? Well, the trademark is gonna help you, let's continue the journey. Okay, sure. So we have the agreement, so we have a prophylactic that this product is gonna be exclusive to our manufacturer, and if it gets into another manufacturer, at least we know it's not our manufacturer. The second thing is trademarks also can be used to seize goods at borders. And also, Alaybaba will take down, so if say the manufacturer doesn't do anything wrong, but somebody sees it in the Chinese marketplace and for some reason, and it gets to Alaybaba. So Alaybaba selling at wholesale, generic wholesale, like here's this clipboard with this unique clip. So, well, how are you gonna take it down on Alaybaba? You can take it down on Alaybaba, but you need a Chinese trademark or a Chinese copyright. So they, Alaybaba has a more robust takedown program than Amazon. So they'll take it down if you have a Chinese trademark to copyright. So you wanna stop the product at the source, say you can't do that, say you missed the boat on that one, literally. Then, you know, the cost, it then is being shipped, you know, China, there are a lot of consumers in China, but we are the number one consumer country. So chances are it's being loaded on a dock to come to the United States. So if you have an American trademark, you can seize those products at the border. So you file it with costumes, and only if you have a trademark registration, you can have costumes in order to do it, seize the boat. So you have a place to stop it. Then once it hits American distribution channel, you can rely on Amazon, you can rely on junctions in court, you can do whatever you need to do. Now, sometimes it's like so smooth and effective. It's, you know, unfortunately, when you're going after infringers, it's like going after a criminal enterprise. Sometimes you're lucky and, you know, you saw, like say, you were a cop and you saw the murder, like, because you happen to be drinking coffee down the street, saw the guy whip out the gun, and that's one thing. The guy whipped out the gun, took off, and you don't know about it for 20 days, and it happens to be the Russian mob. Well, and you're trying to correct the enterprise, so it'll more difficult, but you need these little pieces. And then you need to make, you need an attorney to make that cost-benefit analysis of you if it's worth, because it's, it's really a pretty complicated world. My job is to make it simple and help you make risk analysis. Is this worth it at this point? Or what are we going to do to do this on the cheat? And usually, a combination of those factors work. Sometimes we have to file a lawsuit, but even that's not a very good one. So I just filed one in Miami for a dear friend of both the bars, and because what happened on there is just so, I might be getting on a tangent, but this is a good war story. So he files a takedown on Amazon. The Chinese party against the Chinese party, the Chinese party files a counter notes saying, but the counter notice is BS. It's, they're in a counter notice, you're claiming, no, I have the copy, right? So it's a fake email address, but it's a name of a real company. So you have 20 days at that point to either file a lawsuit in federal court, and you have to have a copy right to do that, or because it's copyright issue, or it's gonna go up and stay up the posting at issue. It's gonna stay up until you get an injunction from a federal judge. Well, that is gonna be really, really expensive. So you have to run and file this lawsuit. And so we ran and filed the lawsuit, and so that that cost was about, I'd say $3,000, $3,000 to $4,000, because it's not amateur hour filing a federal. Right, right, and I just happened to be barred in Florida, so I was able to do it. And then the next step is, I called my Chinese council, and she verified who the company was, and I got in both Mandarin and English, who this company is, and the relation to who filed the counter notice. So I know, and now I'm amending the complaint, and already we've gotten emails, bagging us to settle from this Chinese company, based on our working with Chinese council, who so far has been charged to dime for the services, bagging the Chinese council to resolve this case. But now we want some money out of it. So it's not gonna be more like a problem. Well, let me ask, so this case that you just specified without naming any names, did this person have the trademark in China also? No. No, so they had no protections in China. This is just US protections copyrighted. The US protection, but this is an example of filing a lawsuit. In China, I've never gotten to the point where we're filing a lawsuit. What we do in China is usually a door knocking strategy, where once we find them and sit Chinese council on them, I have a feeling that there are a lot of these people who are very scared of going to Chinese court. And so like I think there might be a, you can go to jail. So they usually tends to take care of it. What can the Chinese council do? I mean, why do they, you just said they don't care about US copyrighted. Oh, I'm sorry, council, not, not council it. So we, so let's, let's do an example. So we know that the infringement is on Alibaba. We know we have a, so it's kind of a generic good, but we have a trademark. And so say we were called Cheerios. And we had a, we were selling away. And then all of a sudden Cheerios, the box shows up on, yeah, on Alibaba. We would have a Chinese trademark. We'd take down the Alibaba listing. We'd find out through Alibaba who, the Chinese council would find out, well, who, who's listing that? Because in Alibaba cooperates, they tell us the name or the Chinese council. And they go and they have offices all over China. They call on and say, hey, we're going to, we're going to file a lawsuit against you unless you, you know, set enter into this settlement agreement. And so then the, that's when you usually get this transcript that they're like, well, no, that wasn't me. That was my brother and my brother's sister. And you get this really circumvent kind of discussion. But usually it ends up in a resolution. They can't believe you found them. And they want to find someone that has found you and go away. OK, sorry. So just for terminology sake, Chinese council is just a Chinese lawyer, right? Chinese lawyer, right? My target. Not the consulate. OK. Got it. OK, so you have relations with Chinese lawyers who can actually give a little bit more weight to a Chinese citizen to be scared, right? Absolutely. Right. Yeah. OK, I get it. OK. The trademark in China really only helps you take stuff down in Alibaba and possibly if a Chinese lawyer needs more ammunition. Correct. And the second thing is it's going to help. You can see the goods at Chinese ports. So the theory is either it's coming directly from a manufacturer to the United States or it's coming a lot of times. If you're small, like you're buying it off, alley alley express and putting the manufacturer in place your custom logo or if you have the trademark for that, you can take infringers down. And what you found is just a letter from a Chinese lawyer to the suppliers usually enough to scare them off because they're paranoid in your experience. Yeah, I call it a doorknocking strategy. Doorknocking. Yeah. OK. We actually sometimes we knock on the door. It's very in it. Again, China, a Chinese council, not consulate, country council is not that expensive. And they have effectively called or actually knocked on the door gone to the factory to discuss our issues. Right. So I mean, I've had some experience in the US where it cost a couple hundred bucks to write a letter. Is that like a price that you would expect to pay a Chinese lawyer to do something like that? The last time we did it, it was $1,500. $1,500, OK. But with that includes a transcript and a resolution, I, you know, right. I love it. And they have access to find out who exactly owns the listings and that sort of thing, right? They do it much better than I do it. Like, I have no idea how to use you. Alibaba did do that. I know, you know, you got to look at, whoa, do we have any protection there? And if we do, yes, it's a matter for Chinese council. I love it. I would imagine a Chinese citizen is just like a US citizen, right? Like, if I got a letter, like, if it was my first one, I'd be scared, right? And I wouldn't know it, yeah. I think a lot of, I mean, I would love to learn more, but I think a lot of these are criminal enterprises. But the criminal enterprises that are dumb, they want to, they want to, if they have issues, they move on. Like, right, it's going to be, it's not that we're going to stop infringement, where we want to stop infringement for people under our care. So, you know, Amazon is spending, according to them, billions of dollars trying to stop infringement. I don't know what's going to well from what I can see. And sometimes, you know, the Wall Street Journal, at least reports, that Amazon is partially responsible for this. Yeah, well, they make it so easy, right? So, you know, exactly. So, you really have to, it's one of those situations that you have to read the tea leaves. This is not supposed to be the most expensive thing you're doing in your business. Like, this, I realize that people don't even really love talking to it, right? And, and this, this should be like a, a little side distraction at a low cost. But if you don't do it at all, it's kind of like one of those things like not getting a bookkeeper, you know, right? Or, you know, knowing how to use QuickBooks on your own. It's something you, it's a business function. And so, it's important, and I can tell you, again, because right now I'm working on seven transactions, a record for me, and M&A, and it's hot right now, is that you don't have this. You're getting big time on your own, and the prices that you're, that us buyers or an aggregator is willing to pay. Right, actually, obviously, you need IP protection. Along those lines, I would imagine a patent is a lot more valuable than in the eyes of an aggregator if you're selling, right? I don't think it design pans all that, all that sexy, really. I think, yes, if you have a utility pan, even my eyes are my ears perk up. Like, I'm like, let me study that. Well, I must really add value, like, well, what is, and what are your sales based on, based off it? It all comes down to financials. There's so many patent holders that add pans, and then they can't monetize them. So, I don't know. Like, it's the whole thing when you get to that point, which is a really, and Stephen, the last time I was on and we taught, I wasn't doing a lot of this, because it's fun, a lot of my clients grow. So, now they're at that stage. And so, it's an amazing place to be for them, and for me, watching their hard work come to fruition, because they're going to monetize their work. So, but I see, I look at it when I study, I try and get in my mind in the eyes of the eye bank or the choir. It's like, what's sexy about this? What's, and it's kind of, it's a whole package here. But, I would think a utility pan would add value if it's being monetized. If it's just kind of like, well, I got this, has nothing to do with the business, I don't even know if they're going to do diligence on it. They don't care. Like, it's really like that. So, always, I think for every client, always be looking for how this particular piece affects bottom line. I can tell you, you know, especially with Amazon Prime Day, we had some clients had with, in front of us, we're killing them. Like, they're 50% down. And it's really like, well, we can't do this in a day. Like, this is something that we should have addressed a long time ago. So, it really can affect your bottom line. And that's bad. And it really should, again, I love IP. It's fascinating. It's intangible stuff. Very creative. But it shouldn't be your take up a ton of your time, or a ton of your money. What I like about this talk today is, you know, I'm sure a lot of times, you know, copycats from China copy stuff directly because they can get away with it. And it's not like someone in America can attack them in China. So, by getting someone in China to knock on their door, I can see that as a huge debtor in it. Right? Yeah. I'm telling you. And it's, you know, it's fun because I get these transcripts and I see how that works. It's like, even if I knew Chinese, there's a cultural thing. It's like how they operate is like totally cultural. So, it's really super interesting. And again, the Chinese government is, I mean, at least in the things we're talking about, which isn't like fentanyl trafficking, they're very aware and very enforceable, or deliberate in their own laws. They just are. It's a, it's a, that kind of country. It's not, it's not, you know, the Caribbean or something. It's very a rigid country. So, they're very rigid in their laws. Cool, Steve, well, where can people find you if they need some of these services? Sure. So, it's, you can email me at S-W-E-I-G-L-E-R at Emerge, E-M-E-R-G-E console, COUNSEAL.com. And it's www.emergeconcil.com. I, anytime that anyone wants to talk, ever free, get to know you consultations as well as knockout, and quotes. So, we like, we try and be very project-based. So, we want to get to know the client, what their issues are, who they are, and build a relationship. Because honestly, Steve, and this is a secret to all your clients is, total TM, which is what we call a trademark, is pretty much a loss leader. Like, it's, it's, it's pretty much because of the searches we do and everything, and the amount to work it is, it's pretty much a cost. And, but I want to build relationships with entrepreneurs that want to grow, and in the e-commerce space especially, and be with them on the journey. And so, that's how I've done it. Sometimes my business advisors are like, Steve, why are you, you're a lot from my, why have a loss leader? But anyway, that's another topic for discussion. Yeah, I'm just just, what I like about Steve for anyone listening is, everything, you know what you're paying for. And it's not like, oh yeah, it's gonna be $400 an hour. I don't know how long it's gonna be. The project-based pricing, and the fact that he's not gonna nickel and dime me, that's why I like Steve personally. Will we try? Yeah, it's not that he's a profession. Sometimes I do enjoy it. So anyway, well, it's always good paying it out with you. Absolutely, thank you so much. Hope you enjoy that episode. Just like brushing your teeth, if you wanna protect your IP, a little bit of prevention goes a long way. More information about this episode, go to mywifecutterjob.com slash episode 45. And once again, I wanna thank Emerge Council for sponsoring this episode. If you sell an Amazon FBA or your own online store, and you want to protect your intellectual property from theft and fraud, head on over to EmergeCouncil.com and get a free console. Just mention my name and you get $100 off. That's emergecounscl.com. I also wanna thank Chase Diamond for sponsoring this episode. Chase is my go-to guy when it comes to email marketing. And if you wanna learn how to run your own successful email marketing campaigns, check out his course over at mywifecutterjob.com slash Chase. That's mywifecutterjob.com slash C-H-A-S-E. And if you were interested in starting your own e-commerce store, head on over to mywifecutterjob.com and sign up for my free six day mini course. Just tap in your email and send in the course right away. Thanks for listening.