Bridging the Gap Between Academic Research and Industry Expertise Where Do You Get Your Advice?

My god, juke's are going to corner the entire frozen orange juice market Live from Joe's mom's basement. It's the stacking Benjamin ship I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and today's your lucky day. We're exploring the places you find good advice Do you dive into the internet higher advisers ask friends or some of each do you dive into the nerdery or get your hands dirty? Here to give us the nerd's eye view on this topic is the guy financial planners turned to for advice CFP Michael Kitzes also on our panel a lady who makes her own luck while helping clients reach retirement She's the queen of sensible money CFP Dana on spot and the man who's always got a winning financial plan and a taste for the finer things Our resident CFP. Oh gee, but that's not all halfway through the show. I'll share my high flying trivia And now a guy who owns thousands of board games and has never won a single one of them. It's Joe Well, hey, Doug thousands might be overstating it There's quite a few in the collection, but you are right on with never winning I just if I had to be lucky I'm lucky and everything I'd lucky I could just spend time today With all of you stackers. Hey, everybody. Let me be the first to welcome you to Friday. I am Joe's all see high Every Joe money on Twitter and man, we even all start line up for you today Let's start off with a guy across the card table from me first of all Mr. Oh gee is here. How are you my friend? I take issue with the fact that you say you've never won you usually do win Only because you changed the rules halfway through the game Oh, I forgot there's a new rule. There's this rule I forgot to tell everybody at the beginning of the game and it turns out I like every game of lunchkin Munchkin Michael who will introduce it a second brings up like the game from hell like that is just and how munchkin fans are all turned off But I have to take issue with that. Oh gee. I do forget rules, but I would win more often if I if I if it was Convenient weird. Yeah, it is strange also here pull a pant called in at the last second and couldn't make it But we were so happy that this woman she's been on enough that we can call her frequent contributor to the show Data on Foxback. How are you? I'm doing great and I have to say board games aren't really my thing either No, but last time you were here something a game that is your game is Walking while you talk, but I don't you're not moving today for people not watching us on YouTube. You know what? Let's see I can turn my under the desk treadmill on there we go But I played three hours of pickleball yesterday So I was like, I don't think I need to walk while I'm at my desk today, but you know My first day with the treadmill was the last episode I was on so here we go. I'll walk Well, maybe no board games, but pickleball so you're into the real games the real games. Absolutely. Yes So did you just call all board games not real? I just offended We only needed the munchkin players and now we just got everybody in the hope board games community I just offended all my people Michael all my people and that voice you here He hasn't been on we were just talking about it might have been seven or eight years since he's been your Michael Kitzis is back How are you my friend? I appreciate the opportunity to join you doing well. It's doing well It has been a long time now We know what Dana does sensible money helping retirees you have not one but two podcasts one of which is with our our friend of the show Carl Richards, how do you and Carl start working together? So we originally cross pass on the the proverbial speaking circuit So Carl does a lot of Training out to financial advisors and client communication. I do a lot of training out to financial advisors on tax retirement I I do I love deep nerdy stuff So I go deep on on that and so Carl and I started crossing up at a lot of conferences where we were both doing trainings for financial advisors And got to know each other as we would like cross pass at one city after another A number of years ago and so at some point Carl actually reached out. He was like, you know We both really have this passion for seeing like the good advisors do well and the not really advisory people go away You know Carl calls them a secret society of of real financial advisors I call them financial advisors like that subset of people who aren't in the sales business like they actually give advice because that's a Hope quite my of our industry. Maybe we'll get to talk about later But Carl is like look we both believe in the same things But we kind of approach from different areas because it's like he wants to do everything with a conversation I want to pull out a spreadsheet And so he's like we should do a podcast and just talk about like the things that we're both dealing with because we are so Completely different in how we approach everything even though we have the same mission that other people will probably find it interesting to listen And he was right we've done a hundred something episodes picked up a million downloads and like it's going strong That's fabulous and you have a second podcast, which is the advisor success podcast correct This was saw my first ray in a podcasting we're almost seven years into this now, which I guess is Not that early podcasting standards, but was really early by financial advisor podcasting standards because Our domains very very regulated. We do everything like five years after the rest of the world So I've been doing that podcast for a long long time We just we bring on financial advisors have them share their paths of success What they've done how they built their businesses. We're kind of a long form hour and a half similar to what what you guys do here So we we really get deep into the details of how they built their businesses And it build up a really wonderful following in the advisor community Just sharing out stories and trying to help advisors be more successful Well, I take a little bit of issue what you said Michael where years goes deep if we ever get really deep We run into trouble because that is not that is not our job here Our job is introducing people to stuff You know, it's funny is that you say you make you know these podcasts are really for advisors I don't know when I've listened to them I also think that if somebody's just out there listening to us If you're looking for good advice, I've seen Michael There's so much and we're going to talk about this a little bit today There's so much misunderstanding about what really happens in the good financial advice industry just listen to few those Yes, we share a lot of those dynamics as well as I know well We may even talk about this a little bit today. You know, we We cover particularly with the podcast they do with Carl like The advisor version of some of these same challenges of How do we deal with challenging client situations? How do we try to navigate these scenarios where Clients are not following advice that we believe is good advice might really really be good advice right? We've all had those situations just in life in general right a family or friend or loved one is doing a not ideal thing And like you're trying to give them advice to do the thing better and they won't take your advice And they keep doing the thing that's not so great for themselves and from our end like Yeah, my career is giving people advice and helping people and they pay me for it And they still won't take the darn advice gets to actually like a whole interesting level of frustration for us as advisors So we we cover some of that and of it on on kitchens and Carl as well. It sounds like it's therapy Sounds like it might be therapy for you. Oh wow I think a lot of the episodes basically are Carl providing meat therapy through my spreadsheet challenges So yes, there's definitely a little bit of that All right, we got Michael here. We got Dana. We got OG and Michael you've been here in a while And I don't know if you know the rules to the Friday show. Have you heard the rules yet? No You got to get me up to speed. So what are the rules now? Yep. Okay, here we go It's the fall and that means Back to school. 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You got the first half Michael Uh, yeah, I think so okay. Here's here's the rest of them We're here. It's the greatest money show on earth. We know all about fishing scams and I'd devastating It could be how many times have we done headlines about this and just the havoc And not havoc's not even a good enough word the fact that it can just ruin your life Hey, everybody. I'm joe saucy. Hi here to tell you about delete me Protecting yourself from financial risks should absolutely include protecting yourself from online identity theft Or fishing scams in fact You know, this happened to our friend Shannon Allen. We were talking about this over on the stacking deed show Shannon had a situation that you can hear in a past episode Where she accidentally gave over $50,000 to somebody who was pretending to be Part of her mortgage company. They took the title company stuff They pretended exactly who they were That is funny even on a smaller level, you know, Cheryl gets things and will text me and go Hey, I didn't know that UPS had something coming and I said don't open that she said why not because that is not from UPS UPS Will not text you the way that these people text you Delete me helps you keep your personal info safe by removing it from hundreds of data broker websites that sell our data online You tell delete me exactly what info you want deleted and their privacy experts take it from there I've done it myself. It takes minutes to set it up It's really that simple to protect yourself delete me makes it easy. So right now For our stacker community you're going to get 20% off your delete me plan when you go to join delete me dot com slash Benjamin's and if you use promo code sbs 20 that's sbs 20 the only way to get 20% off is to go to join delete me dot com slash Benjamin's and enter code sbs 20 Now you're ready, right? Sure Michael's here data and OG and Doug. So let's get rolling Today we're going to take some inspiration from a piece Michael that you wrote on your nerds i view blog that you'll find it kitsus.com The piece of from late July is academic research versus industry experience Evaluating the value of practice management advice and i know Michael what you were talking about here is advice for advisors and really how to run a practice I thought though In terms of a construct for an episode there's a lot that the three of you can help us with here As people that often use financial advisors because i want to read from the executive summary As a financial advisor there's many potential sources of advice on running a practice and serving clients From fellow advisors to coaches to academic researchers and others Sometimes it could be tempting to rely solely on the advice of those with quote in the trenches perspective As these individuals have actually lived out a similar experience it can appreciate some of the nuance challenges That an industry outsider might not and as i thought about that Michael I thought about the number of people i've run into since i went from financial advising to financial media Who now get all of their advice from community groups on facebook from going to Well, we had Stephen Boyer here from camp five which is a fine operation But people go there and i think they think that's my financial advisor When you were actually putting this together Why was this piece important for you and why is it so timely today for financial advisors in the domain of financial advisors The challenge that crops up look we live this world where we have to both Figure out how to give good advice to clients and figure out how to run good advice businesses The advisory industry overwhelmingly and increasingly these days is more and more Channels of independent advisors that are running and building their own businesses And so as small business owners we have the proverbial you got to spend time working in your business as well as time on your business And so when it comes like working on your business we have fear like okay What are the best practices about how to actually run my business? And the challenge that we have not unique to the financial advisor world is Basically like there's a lot of hucksters out there right there people are like I've got the system. I'll sell you the system to do the thing And then you spend a much money and buy the system and it sounds like it sounds like SEO social media people for for us Yes, so we do with our challenges around that and so what happens once Almost any of us have kind of been taken in in that version at some point You tend to go one of your two directions You're like darn it. I just realized the person that sold me the thing like all they do is sell the thing They've never done the things they have no idea what they're actually talking about so like from now on I'm only going to find people who've really done the thing and have treaded the path who can speak from real experience And that's where I'm going with advice some people go the other direction and they say I like I got taken about the person Doesn't know anything so from now on I'm only going to the people who actually have the data and I'm going to go find the data and the people who have the real numbers Who have done the analysis who can give me the quote quote the right answer and that we sort of proverbially call that the academic route And the interesting thing to me that I I see in our space is Most people seem to have like a natural inclination of whichever of those two paths they go and whichever path they go They tend to really not like the other one. Yeah, right? Yeah, like if you like people who have got and we've done you know lived in the trenches and done it We tend not to like academic experience right? It's like you y'all are in your ivory tower You don't know how things are in the real world is usually the criticism And then the folks that like the more academically driven approach like yeah, you're telling me all these things you did that made you successful and like You don't actually know what made you successful like you could be a case scenario of one It could have been like two percent what you said and 98 percent luck like you know it reminds me There there was an article that had come out a couple of years ago not specific to our industry But it was this like profile on someone who had made this wonderfully successful Entrepreneurial endeavor and the question was like, you know, what did you do? How do you do it? And I forget what exactly what the details were was something effective like I got about it at five a.m. Every day I'm hustled. I built a great team around me I established a wonderful mastermind group I borrowed $550,000 for my parents and I drink green smoothies And it was like we we we think Did was that like borrowed $550,000 for my parents in the middle of that right and they're like Up on this platform of let's look at like the amazing best practices of this person who's built this business I'm like dude you you had someone to borrow $550,000 from that might have influenced the outcome more than perhaps You're realizing slightly because a lot of us don't have Parental access to half a million dollar loans, right? And so just that phenomenon Now I mean to knock that in people who've been successful. There's a lot that goes into building business Beyond that, but just this phenomenon that You will often see stories for people talking about like here's what I did to be successful And it's like maybe that wasn't the thing or the only thing or maybe you're not even recognizing What's actually different about your experience versus ever analysis that makes you successful Which for a lot of people then brings you back into the okay, so I got to look at it academically Candidly I tend to be a fan of a little bit of a both and I think there's a place for both and not trying to equivocate just I nerd out on both paths for their respective reasons But that's really why we were trying to queue it up as I'm finding this in our profession This debate is starting to crop up more and just there's some structural stuff around how The advice business has evolved over the past 10 and 20 years that more advisors are not in the business to selling products now They're really building ongoing businesses with advice which tends to make bigger businesses Which means more of the need practice management advice and so this is starting to crop up a lot in our industry Well, let's take this because everything that you talked about happens is you know with people that take this advice Our stacker community OG you were saying that it's not just in that realm With your example, Michael you're talking about the chain of events that help that person be successful Just on article in um, I don't know if it was in Forbes or something You know that has a little advisor profiles and it was like is you know this person super successful And you know one of the youngest people in the universe to be really successful manages Billions of dollars is really young and energetic and buried in the paragraph is Inherited practice from dad who worked 30 years and it's like yeah, okay, I mean Uh-huh there that might have had an impact right like just a little yeah, that might have an impact like look You if you want to look at what it's like to run a business that size like cool I love your input if you're gonna give me advice on how to grow a business that size like Maybe that's not going to be the best source of advice right Let's flip this and talk about the stackers because I think there's a parallel universe here That we're getting advice from the wrong places that sometimes if we prefer one type of device to your point Michael We poo poo the other side You know as mom says we go nah, I don't really like that Michael writes Dana that it's often tempting to talk to people in the trenches right people going through what you're going through Is there any danger in asking people going through retirement or they're paying for kids to go to college now? How they did it? Absolutely. There's danger. I mean We each have our own perspective based on our circumstances. I mean, it's the exact same analogy You know you talk about someone that got $550,000 from their parents will how they went about is gonna be completely different than the next person You know, I remember running around my house unplugging outlets to keep my electricity bill down while I was starting my business Right it's a completely different perspective So when you're talking about retirement Yeah, you don't know there are circumstances you don't know whether they worked or their spouse worked whether they inherited money The age of their children whether they got lucky and went to work for Apple or Google or Microsoft at the right time or You know whether they got lucky and bought a house at the right time and had a you know incredible increase in home equity There's all kinds of circumstances that flavor the way we think about money and whether we think it was easy or not easy And of course that's gonna impact how we withdraw the money whether we pay for the kids college all of those things You're only getting that one person's view unless you went around and sampled Lots of people and and that's one of the things we Yeah, we talk about you know, we've helped hundreds of people retire So you get all these different perspectives then I think you you can pick and choose There's so there's no love large numbers and like colloquial evidence doesn't equal truth I think it's kind of what you're saying Yes, yeah, but oh gee. I don't think we should we should tell stackers not to talk to people going through retirement Because I do feel like you know hearing those stories like the humanity of what you're going through and how the road might be Bumpier than you thought still can can provide some helpful tips Yeah, and I and I think it's also important just to think about like the perspective Dana said this about The perspective of what other people have done and I'm thinking about this in the context of Real estate investing versus equity investing, right? There seems to be like this pretty big divide between I'm going to be wealthy financially independent by buying a whole bunch of single-family houses is wrenching Mount or Airbnb and being them or whatever versus I'm going to take that capital and invest it in The equity markets and and kind of go down that path and the reality is is that if you talk to somebody who's Been wildly successful with real estate. There was probably a lot of hard work there. There's probably a lot of Fortunate timing, you know if you were successful some things just happened to go your way And so they're gonna have that perspective That's gonna that's gonna I don't want to say cloud their judgment But it's gonna have that lens that they're gonna be able to see Their perspective and share that with you just like you know, you couldn't say well, what about like Warren Buffett like he's He doesn't own any real estate. He has all an equity 100% equity portfolio. Surely that's a big enough proof to to be successful that way Well, one might argue that he happened to have some pretty good timing, you know relative to some pretty cyclical Bull markets as well So everybody's perspective is gonna be viewed through the lens of their own personal success And so if that's one of the dangers of the Facebook groups or the you know following somebody on Instagram or I mean You could do this for anything whether there's money or health, you know You're trying to lose weight right there's 52 ways to do that eat less carbs eat more carbs. Don't exercise You know Now you can just take a shot and lose weight You know, there's like a thousand ways to do it. I'm waiting for the Edadona program. Yeah, I'm stuck on the more carbs Edadona lose some weight, you know But everybody's body chemistry is gonna be different. So what works for you Isn't necessarily gonna work for somebody else And so you gotta be careful what kind of what kind of circle you have around you because it turns into a pretty impactful echo chamber very quickly I think Well, this is this is where I love that where that's going OG because I think this is where trust comes in And and Michael as as you well know because you deal with this Every week when you're talking to these advisors. You're talking to with Carl about servicing clients There's so much distrust of professional help out there. There's so much. Is that distrust? Deserved and how do professionals? You know if if Dana knows the law of large numbers and yet people don't want to talk to Dana Because she's a pro because they don't trust pros like how do we start working around that? Well, I mean sadly, I think it is deserved for just our I mean can they are our industry has a lot of issues even aside from like general Consumer backlash from the financial services industry. Yeah, the the financial advisor domain Has some unique challenges because when you drill down to it Like the actual like the label financial advisor and holding out that way is not really actually regulated Despite the fact we're a ludicrously regulated industry because if you if you go back to the roots of all of financial services Like a hundred years ago when a lot of the regulation was put in place Banks started coming up. So states regulated the banks that insurance companies started scrapping up So states regulated the insurance companies then the stock exchange and market started cropping up Did some not so great things in the late 1920s early 1930s? So we made some federal regulators around them the SEC finna And so what we ended up with is is this world where one set of people regulate insurance So if you provide advice that has to do with insurance to answer them Yeah, one regulator handles investments So if you manage portfolios you have to answer them another regulator handles the sale mutual funds So if you sell some of those you got to answer to them and all these different regulators regulate the different things that Financial advisors might implement and nobody actually regulates financial advisors as financial advisors And so the end result of what's happened with that particularly over the past 20 to 30 years Is the industry and particularly the the the product for manufacturing and distribution side the industry Right the folks that make insurance and investment products have figured out that if you tell people You're going to give them advice and the advice is to buy your product It sells a lot of product right like if you give people a copy of it's a plan and it always results in your product at the end of it It turns out a lot of people buy your product and so 20 30 years ago everybody stopped putting insurance agents and stockbroker on their business card And they started putting financial advisor financial consultant on their business card But they legally they never actually stopped being product sales people It's still their job. It's still how they're regulated It's still the standards that they're held to it's still the educational or comments are lack thereof that they have Because there basically is no material educational or carbon to be a financial advisor And so we go down this road where within the industry now there's basically this bifurcation There's a subset of people who are really in the business of advice They tend to pursue advanced education on their own. It's not a requirement You do it because it helps you actually give people better advice They pursue some of the channels that have higher regulatory standards where you're actually accountable for the advice Because it's good for consumers and it turns out you get better advice when people are accountable for it And then you've got a second segment of the industry that continues to live in the product sales and distribution side They get paid to sell product they work for companies that manufacture and distribute the product And they all call themselves financial advisors And if you just look at like a total census of financial advisors in the industry Literally the majority like more than 50% actually still work for product companies that manufacture and distribute And only a minority of them are actually in the business of advice So again, this is what Karl calls his secret society real financial advisors. I call them financial advisors And so for the average consumer who throws a stone and tries to find a financial advisor Or like the mathematical odds is you are going to find someone who is a product salesperson And if you've had a couple of those experiences You probably don't think very highly of financial advisors for good reason Like just if you need to buy a thing I'm fine to find a salesperson sell it to me But if you go to a salesperson for advice you tend not to be thrilled with it Like I know when I go to the closed store and they say it looks good on me Like they're not giving me fashion advice They work on commission on the floor They're like you should wear a blue shirt Yes Which of course is always the right advice because all I wear is my shirt Michael I'm a guy of a certain age and there used to be these stereo stores all over And I remember job one was when the stereo sales dude said I have this at my house that meant I wasn't buying it I got to care what you have at your house Like no way Guy best buy comes up to me Oh, I love this one Okay, let's go look over here then Which by the way Dana We talked about maybe the bad news about a person with one story But we've heard this phrase the wisdom of crowds Right the wisdom of the crowd We also know that there's value in surround sound When I we moved to Texarkana at first I had never run a marathon And then all my friends in Texarkana are marathoners Now I've run 11 and I'm prepping for another half And hopefully my final full marathon coming up But I wouldn't have done any of that if I wouldn't have had the surround sound It seems to me that with these Facebook groups There is some value there in in surround sound Or are they more dangerous than good If you're not taking that as okay they said do this check So I'm gonna do you know Are you saying just take what happens there with a grain of salt Like maybe my buddy Troy shouldn't be giving me Workout advice just because he's in my marathon group Exactly We get this on our webinars So we do webinars about every four to six weeks And we get all kinds of people that will ask very specific questions You know They'll give us two pieces of information and say what should I do Well we would need a lot more than those two pieces of information And so we'll try to guide them You know we would need a lot more If your situation looks more like this Here's the things to consider If your situation looks a lot more like that Here's the things to consider And I think that's what you can get from these Facebook groups From from these online communities Is what are the considerations in some of these decisions But it's completely different than having a one-on-one conversation With someone who knows your financial situation inside and out And we talk a lot about it's not just the spreadsheets Like I'm a spreadsheet geek like Michael Like spreadsheets make my heart sing They really do But there's also the values side So we can run through all the numbers in the world You know I was on with the woman the other day But she's just terrified about what happens if her husband passes away early And she's going to be okay But you know you can't address that emotional concern with a spreadsheet There's there's value to having a conversation And and so many factors that go into these decisions with money Aren't really you know logical We're not all like Spock We have an emotional component to them It's funny OG Dana brings up a great point That over the last 25 years I feel like there's more psychologist in the good financial advisor space than there used to be From the advisor and we literally added it to like the official CFP curriculum two years ago Like there's a section of client psychology That did not exist as part of the core curriculum And is getting added in now Wasn't there yeah OG It's interesting your perspective of 25 years Because July 1st was my 25th year And I was just talking with somebody About how this has changed over the years Michael was talking about how financial advisors air quotes used to give advice And it just kind of as long as the advice Sold the product that you had access to sell It was it that was the that was the intent of the advice And I started working like you did Joe at American Express And I think we did a pretty fair job Of providing that advice piece But a lot of times it kind of fell right into the the products and services That were super easy for for the advisor to sell But the reality is is that now Products are so ubiquitous and it's so easy for consumers to To shop these different things I mean you can look at all the commissions that have gone away And and trading costs and all that other sort of stuff that's kind of Gone through the industry That it has to be more about advice and it has to be more about That personal Relationship or the personal experience that that that individual is working through for their you know Their unique goals because at the end of the day There's no right answer and it's really I think it takes a pretty big person to say You know there's 15 ways to solve this problem And I think that's almost a great place to leave it before we go to the break And everybody in the second half of this We're going to start talking about what we look for in good advice And really the traits of good advice And went to trust good advice And we'll talk about the different channels where people find advice But before we get there I want to ask you guys about Just individual stories that you know Will retract names But of where somebody got bad advice And really about how much money it cost them I remember when I was leaving financial planning and I'll go first I had somebody who decided because I was leaving And we were in the middle of Just coming out of the 2007-2008 crisis And things were just starting to rebound They decided that they wanted to completely get out of the stock market Because they didn't know about anybody else giving them advice And they took all their money out of all their IRAs And I called them and I said what did you do And why didn't you call me first And they said well you're leaving And we just think that you know we don't need the stock market up and down Like we just went through We lived through it We're through it We just took all the money And I said you could just move it to CDs inside the IRA You don't have to take They took $300,000 guys out of their IRAs Because they didn't want to be in the stock market anymore And the person at the bank by the way who was doing the CDs Absolutely let them do it, right? All these people just let them do it And I tried to explain to them You earned $300,000 this year That's going to be this is going to be ordinary income And they said well the horse is already out of the barn I'm like no it isn't You've got this type frame where you can put it back in I swear you can And they wouldn't do it Bad advice cost them I don't know how much buddy attacks It's I mean just maybe multiply that by 30% Just maybe they'd like the stereo salesman And there was something in it for you That's still out of my entire career in financial planning That gives me the biggest pit But Dana, a story names retracted of somebody getting bad advice And it costs them a lot of money Yeah I mean I don't know if it's exactly advice But I definitely see clients that will listen to Political things one way or another We had a client year and a half ago now And this in this climate that doesn't happen Never, right? I don't know what she was listening to But she called us up year and a half ago And said she was terminating services Because you know Fiat currency was going away And whatever she was listening to You know had said like she needed to get her money out So you know it was really a hard conversation I was like well what are you going to do with the money Well I'm going to put it in cash And I'm thinking but if Fiat currency is going away Like how is that going to work for you But there was no logic So I'm going to put it Dana I got to put it all in Fiat currency then I got to put it all Exactly, it's going away So I'm going to take it out of stocks And put it all in Fiat currency So that's what she did And terminated services Now I don't know how that played out But I know the portfolio she would have had Has obviously done quite well Over the last year and a half And so I've seen so many things Like that over the years Where people I have some horror stories I have one person who lost four million dollars You know just truly horror stories Signed it all away on two promiseary notes It turned out to be bad real estate investments And poof it was all gone And so yeah I mean I could go on and on But yeah you have to be really careful About letting the things you're listening to Completely skew your point of view Where you're not being objective and balanced anymore I feel I don't know We have a member of our team Who said that her grandparents Just sitting front of political TV all day And her angry like all day long And I just can't imagine Michael A horror story about bad advice So mine comes from the very start of my career So I started 23 years ago In spring of 2000 Like the absolute peak of the tech bubble And so the number one Perfect starting time by the way Oh yeah fantastic starting time So the number one advisor air quotes In the office and the agency where I joined It was it was a sales organization His big thing like he was bringing in more assets Than anybody else by a country mile And the reason was Everybody he met got the munder net net fund So for anybody that doesn't know Munder net net fund was like The absolute high flyer of the peak In the late 1990s tech bubble I forgot the number was like Munder net net fund was up something like 150% just in 1999 Like the fund went up 105% in one year Because tech stocks were going to the moon And so everybody he met It was like the thing sold itself Like buy fund went up 150% last year What are you invested in? So that got the money So he was on a pedestal In that office because this was a sales organization That literally had a white board That had everybody's name And how much they've sold And you tried to get to the top of the board And then the board would reset every month So what have you done for me lately? Number one agent Drove an immense amount of money Everybody went into the munder net net fund And munder that fund I think lost something like 90% In the next three years When the market crashed came In part like that's where some of my I guess like particular jadedness around Sales people who called themselves financial advisors Comes from like He was literally next to my cubicle He had very very nice office My cubicle was on the end That's where the offices were He was right next to me And I would just watch him like Client after client walking to his office And phone call after phone call And everybody left with the munder net net fund And his name was at the top of the board every month And all those people lost 90% of what they invested With him in less than three years Just selling returns Yeah and he doesn't have to get back anything he made Right that's the commission gig He kept 100% of his commissions While his clients lost 90% of everything they invested with him And there were literally zero Zero consequences Like you signed that brokerage form That says you acknowledge what you're doing He at least found people who agreed They were willing to tolerate some level of risk And so he had literally zero consequences Because he wasn't actually accountable for it for advice Even though he said You're going to be able to retire early on this Like that was not really retirement advice It was a sales pitch And so to me like that's what drives off this Right is the person you're talking to Actually in the business of advice Or is the reality that they're in the business of sales Like look if I want to buy me internet funds Like go talk to the dude He's really good at doing the paperwork Go get it for you Nice and quick But like people weren't going to him to buy the fund They were going to him to figure out what to invest in And what he sold them was the thing that made the commission And made the money train run for him OG how about you cost of advice Well the story that comes to mind for me Is more of a third party perspective During covid I had a really good friend Who was working at a local bank In their financial advisor department Whatever you want to call that And we talked almost every day You know from the beginning of covid And he had no real decision making Abilities in terms of client relationships But was privy to all of the stuff that was going on And at this small regional bank They managed something like about 600 million dollars of client assets And you know the problem with merging financial advisors Airquote with banks is that generally speaking The the people who are at the bank Who are interested in financial advice Generally don't want anything that's risky Right but again kind of you think about the history of 2010 through 2020 the spring of 2020 before covid Market went pretty much straight up So like to Michael's point with the fund You could do you know I'd say I mean you're somewhat conservative It's 60 40 it's 70 30 whatever And so a lot of the consumers Are customers of this bank's financial advisor department Were invested in more than conservative investments Anyways the account everybody got pretty freaked out As you might recall market went down 34% In 17 trading days And the bottom of it was March the 23rd And we were talking at noon My my friend and I And you know that day the market was down 11% And it was just kind of a really rough day And I had gone on a walk with my wife that day And I was thinking my goodness This is like the third one of these right The 2000 time frame the the 2007 to 2009 And now this and we were just kind of talking about it My friend said well the VP here Has decided that everyone is going to cash by nightfall Because you know we're going we're going down like crazy Everyone everyone's going to cash by nightfall Because the but you know I mean the world is going to end It's pretty obvious at this point It's down you know the market's Crashing today And he told me that and I said I said well just so you know Today's the bottom and it totally when when professionals Capitulate at that level 600 million dollars All to cash in one trade You know you kind of knew That that we're kind of just had to be sort of toward the bottom Interestingly so they did this and interestingly Most of it was mutual funds so mutual funds close At the end of the day right so you don't get to trade it Throughout the day like an ETF and go well you know I was only down 5% that day because I sold at 11 a.m. Nope they sold out at the end of the day Down 11% for the day Maybe you guys know but what do you think happened the next day Rebound it went up 10% 600 million dollars sitting in cash I'm pretty sure that there are some lawsuits that kind of transpired from that but Back to kind of the overarching theme of a lot of this is that when You're in a relationship that's that's driven around Selling and it's driven around products and not around Goal attainment and not around how do I help this person or how do we collectively Get to the thing that's most important to you Then the only thing you can do is work on the day-to-day You know like look at the day-to-day stuff And so that was the impact of those decisions, you know roughly you know 40 or 60 million dollar Miss basically big big bad day just if they would have waited one day right wait one day And you would have seen a recovery and maybe that would have you just had enough Of your lips above the water at that point Yeah, and I also think I just go back to Dana's point about everybody's different And when we're calling our shot for everybody across the entire branch No matter what your financial situation that we're all getting out Like how crazy how bad is is that advice and you'll see the same stuff in online forums I'm like what are you talking about using gold as your cash reserve like that's ridiculous I can shame a piece of it. I actually saw the trivia talking about Talk about gold real fast Joe. I actually saw a video because you know one of the arguments that we talk about is Well, how you know you can take a slab of gold and and go sell it There's actually videos now on YouTube about this and how quote easy it is to go cash in a sliver of gold off your gold bar You just kind of chisel a little bit off if you need some money and then you you go into this You know place in New York City and they weigh it and they give you cash. So Just tell you do it's way better than going all fiat currency That's what Dana your person should have gone just about gold bars and a little chisel to chisel some off Hey coming up in the second half of this I really want to start seeing if we can solve some of these issues that we brought up But before that we have our year-long trivia competition going on among our three frequent contributors Len Penzo who has the week off Paula who I mentioned earlier had A last-minute Obligation so Dana nice enough to sit in so your team Paula pant today Michael you are as our guest of honor your team Len Penzo and OG of course playing for himself So Michael you haven't played this game before Which means I should go over you've got some good news and some bad news do you want the good news first or the bad news I'll take the good news first Well, the good news first build me up a little the good news is you are tied for first My friend because the score is you have 11 Team Paula, which is Dana today has 11 and OG who's our two-time returning champion point to the for people on YouTube point to the trophy OG that's our dollar store trophy we're playing for right there guys Karen got the ugliest trophy we could possibly find that goes out style. So he's had it twice two years in a row OG's got seven. He's down by four. So OG fallen behind him by the way Paula pant is usually everybody knows Paula is one of the smartest people on earth She's always in last place. So how the hell you guys are in first She doesn't know nobody knows. She's had a great string of wins. So no pressure Dana. No pressure at all No pressure I'm kind of feeling like we're in an equal pressure bucket here at a dead top So well in the bad news is this because team landed better than team Dana last year that means unfortunately Michael You're gonna have to guess first which I don't like our guest having to do but for that we need a trivia question Doug What do we got on tap today? What's going on? My goodness. I thought we'd never get here Joey There's stackers on Joe's mom's neighbor duck it big moment alert I am currently in the process of Rowing the new manager down at the tasty freeze she and she alone has the power to free pour that twisty creamy goodness Who needs US Senators now that's a powerful person to have in your back pocket It's futile for her to resist my charm It's only a matter of time until I have free ice cream on demand and then the envy of all local men They speak in a getting wooed on this day in 1949 the Dessler brothers were the talk of their town when their bitter feud Led to the split of their footwear company and the founding of their rival shoe brands Puma and Adidas Both went on to go viral with Adidas becoming associated with hip-hop music Run DMC wooed an endorsement deal with the company by having attendees at their Madison square garden concert Hold up one shoe and Adidas executive was so impressed they gave run DMC a one million dollar endorsement deal on the spot Also why I'm holding up my shoe as I read this you know Oh mine yeah Come on Adidas I'm right here another legendary endorsement deal with a shoe company is back in the news Because of the movie air According a legend directed by Ben Affleck the movie is about Nike sports marketing executive Sunny Vicaro Who courted a shoe partnership with Michael Jordan that would make Nike forever associated with basketball The air Jordan would go on to earn 126 million in revenue in its first year and begin a lucrative relationship between Jordan and Vicaro So here it is not you got all that background my trivia question for you today is During Michael Jordan's basketball career. How much did he earn in total from endorsement deals Facilitated by sunny Vicaro I'll be back right after I spray myself down with cologne I want Miss tasty freeze to know when I've arrived and the scent of me to linger long after I leave that's how you keep them talking about you Yeah, one way one way or another and polo bottles getting low for me if that doesn't if that doesn't work I know what I know idea what will Doug Michael unfortunately you have to go first here So sunny Vicaro and Michael Jordan how much money that partnership make I'm just trying to make sure I follow all the names of who was where Can I ask follow-up questions for clarification? That was like done through a lot of are you related are you related to OG? Because that's his department you deal I try to give you so much info to like throw you off the scent. I know and I'm sure you had it before that Michael So yes follow-up away Yes, so I'm worried about I think I'm hearing is that The company did the split into Adidas and Puma and Adidas says thing with run DMC and sunny Vicaro tried to get Michael Jordan on with with Puma to do his thing and my recollection is Michael Jordan kind of did a thing with Nike So does that mean he didn't do with Puma and the answer is zero Well the questions about sunny Vicaro who worked for Nike. Oh who worked on the Nike side Yeah, he worked on the Nike side. So there was some cash there. So I will say that zero you can go with zero Searching for the trick here We're not above the trick Michael. We've done that before but he said sorry you're locked in But I will tell you there there was some money here. He's the Nike guy all right Man, I don't know. I feel like this is either a really big number or not very big number Because he didn't sign a good deal But Michael Jordan seems to have done well. So like is this a like get closest without going over? Are we like prices right? Just close this just close this not without going over just closest Got it. It's got to be a big number Nike kind of kind of did well over the years is my impression So let's go with 200 million dollars 200 million dollars for team Kits is Penzo All right Dana you got 200 million as the starting gate. What do you think about that? Well, I've seen the movie air. It's phenomenal There's this scene with played by Ben Affleck who plays the Phil Knight the founder and CEO of Nike where You really Frames how your risk decisions change from a startup company to a more established company. Oh, just fabulous movie Has to do with some of the conversations we started off with on this Spreadsheets in the in the movie Dana. You're getting really getting excited about this. I'm guessing there's spreadsheets No, probably was spreadsheets in a sunny's mind. I would guess that's right. Yes Seems like Jason Bateman was more of the spreadsheet guy Sonny was kind of the seat of his pants guy played by Uh Not Ben Affleck the other guy. Oh, you know in the movie it was Jason Bateman who was the most influential and getting Jordan to sign No, it was it was not not Ben Affleck. It was it was who's the guy who does movies with me did the Martian. He did Matt Damon. Matt Damon. Oh, oh, yeah. Yeah, Matt Damon. Sorry. Matt Damon. Yes So but Sonny Vicaro was Matt Damon. So that's kind of a seat of the pants kind of guy but Jason Bateman came across like your spreadsheet guy Yeah, he did but he was all for the decision. I believe maybe I'm remembering you wrong Nope, I think he was once it worked out. Yeah, but anyway, let's work out your answer So I'm gonna guess. Oh, this is hard. Do I go over a billion or just under a billion? I'm gonna go 900 million 900 million dollars. So significantly more of the Mr. Kitzes So oh gee got 200 million. You got 900 million Is this the amount that Jordan received? How much did Jordan earn in total from endorsement deals facilitated by Sonny Vicaro? We don't we didn't we're not netting it out. Oh gee. We're not backing out his lunch receipts and all of his expenses You know, I just didn't know that was the total deal that he gets a part of assuming there's an agent who did really well on this because you know, you only get the net Yeah All right, so 900 million in the movies hilarious too 900 million 200 million uh I feel like I just read something that said that Tiger Woods was about to be the second billion dollar person Which would lead me to believe that Jordan was the first I just got to take the over there statistically more numbers over 900 million then between 900 and 200 So 900 million and one cent And and that's the way we can't cap Dana at the knees right there All right, uh, we got our numbers locked. We'd love to tell you who wins. We'll be right back with that Are you currently enjoying the show on the Stitcher app? Then you need to know Stitcher is going away on August 29th Yep Going away as in kaput gone dead Rest in peace Stitcher and thanks for 15 years of service to the podcast community So switch to another podcast app and follow this show there Apple Spotify or wherever you listen Michael you opened up the bidding here with 200 million it looks like both Dana and OG said screw that Like it was more than that you feeling confident though if it's a number Honestly, I'm not feeling confident at all like if you give me a chance with the spreadsheet To go through numbers and do some projections of Nike's growth over time like I would I would come back to this But you know, I'm the I'm the spreadsheet guy. So I will confirm. I'm also not the pop culture guy So I will confess I am not feeling terribly confident But I do at least like the spread you do here, right? I feel like like Dana's kind of boxed in I at least have a multi hundred million dollar range to cover here So I'm at least I'm liking my options But I'm not feeling very confident. Yeah, Dana 900 million you were feeling good for about I think about three minutes Yeah, yeah, so OG beat me out by a penny OG think it's the over you feeling good? Think so again, there's more numbers above 90 good all year and it's not been year-year though He's got the trophy. Don't call to come back All right, we'll call it come back season. Well, let's see if there is a comeback, Doug Hey there stackers. I'm envy and dorsor and ladyweuer Joe's mom's neighbor Doug and in 1984 Sunny Vicaro began courting Michael Jordan to partner with Nike to produce what would become the iconic air Jordan The partnership has lasted decades and has been a cash cow for the shoe brand and basketball legend My question was during Michael Jordan's basketball career. How much did he earn in total? From endorsement deals facilitated by Sunny Vicaro Well, I will say this Mike slash land was off by just 1.1 billion Dana was off by about four hundred million and OG was off by like three hundred and ninety nine million nine hundred and ninety nine You get the point throughout his basketball career Michael Jordan earned over one point three billion dollars from endorsement deals With Sunny Vicaro wonder if he's any relation to Brenda and Sunny did Michael a solid that means OG is all with wow OG did we say that now don't call it a comeback don't call it a comeback and here for years you know has eight only three away But uh, yeah great movie Michael. I'm assuming that you haven't seen the movie area yet. No, no I have not I've got young children. We're a mostly Disney household these days Well, I will give it if you ever get a chance to just get away big thumb up I think OG you've seen it Dana seen it Doug. You've seen it right never saw you haven't seen it. Oh, you'd love it to OG Yeah, good stuff. I haven't seen it. I'm putting on my list. You already won. He doesn't need to see it now I already know what happens That's in the past Hey, uh, let's move into the future. Let's talk about better advice the second effort today show is brought to you by deposit accounts Dana, you know what happens when you go to deposit accounts calm Well, you can make a deposit you you you you you might be able to But you could compare more than 275,000 deposit rates from over 11,000 banks credit unions all for free As we record this uh, which is about 10 days before people are going to hear it The top 1% of all savings accounts paying 4.64 percent national average those 0.43 So when you factor in all those other savings accounts you'll find that maybe Maybe there's a bank out there that's better for you stack your benchmarks.com slash deposit accounts are just go to deposit accounts.com For more all right, let's dive into Advice and where you get it. I want to talk about all these different platforms Dana let's start off with Facebook groups with groups What type of good things? I want to go through the good things from these groups I got three CFPs here people are going to go get professional advice get good professional advice But I want to talk about what the good is that you can get from these things all right So let's talk about Facebook groups. What's a good thing that you can get by joining a financial Facebook group? I think like a lot of groups you feel like the kind of questions you're asking are Normal you know, you think oh, I'm not the only one wondering this wow There's people that think about these things. I also think it can give you context A lot of people are afraid to come talk to a financial advisor because they don't feel like they understand the Lingo or they don't feel like they even know enough You know that shouldn't necessarily be a reason But if that's the way you feel and you're trying to gain some background knowledge You start to dive in and ask questions There's lots of people willing to point you to beginner articles and things where you can learn and you're just gaining context I think that's one of the positives of these types of groups. We did talk already about the negatives if you take this and go this definitely applies to me without any second Follow-up buyer beware Absolutely I might go on to ask you about master classes like I have a subscription to master class I learn a bunch from it These are people that have done the thing before they they know and you'll see some of these very responsible courses online Dana talked about she has webinars. So if I just sign up for webinars. I take the master class What's the good I can get out of that? What's the buyer beware? Well, so I mean think the good around master class is just the opportunity for the pure educate I mean first of all it's just the pure education right I'm going to learn about things that I I just literally don't know about Ideally, I may be even gained some perspectives about it from someone who's tread the path And me like even even more ideal world like I'm actually getting someone that can essentially role model What it looks like right not just I'm giving you perspective on the other side But I have done the journey And you can see what my journey was like and and learn from it And me like all of those are valuable perspectives I don't call any of them advice in a literal like You should do this based on your situation But education to me is very relevant getting perspective Just like I want to know what it's like on the other side of the mountain because I've never been there before Is incredibly powerful for us and and finding role models I do think is very powerful for a lot of people right there's you know It's hard to visualize what it would be like to do the things successfully If you haven't seen other people that have done it successfully role models have impacted a lot of domains And I think it absolutely applies in the context of a lot of our I'll just say our financial lives overall Because the reality again if you want to bring the the psychology back into it Right part of it is knowing what to do And part of it is having the confidence and belief that if you try to do it You would actually be able to succeed right The psychological construct is self-efficacy If we don't have confidence and believe that trying it would lead to success We don't bother to try we give up or we self-sabotage We don't go down that road and so seeing someone who's done it And being able to see it and saying wow They tread the path they made it through I think I can do it because I've seen that it can be done now Is incredibly powerful for lifting self-efficacy when tied to education Like now you know what to do Or at least you know more information about it And you know how to you know that it can be done And that's incredibly powerful for helping a lot of people move forward I mean I think that's why master classes often get the momentum they do Yeah seeing the top of the mountain before you climb Increases the efficacy of getting there I would think Absolutely absolutely OG I want to pivot just a little bit because at the beginning of this In Michael's piece for financial advisors we talked about people that have That are on the path right now right the groups that we talked about Or maybe even the master class stuff that we were just talking about But then also the scientific advice And people prefer one way or the other How do we start to discern which way to go like as an example We've talked before on the show that you know you've got to if you've got a mortgage It to 3% interest rate the math says That you know what I should probably arbitrage and invest money And get higher than 3% but the behavior shows The happiest retirees and I see Dana smiling the happiest retirees are ones that don't have any debt So how do I start to parse between the tried and true pay off your debt Versus the spreadsheet math of 3% a great interest rate don't mess with it I think ultimately it just depends on what kind of person you are Right, I mean this is the same thing as like as it relates to Let's say you have credit card debt and you go do I need the motivation of the snowball method where I'm like See in progress every six weeks where I'm lopping off bills even though it's the not the most efficient way of doing it Or do I find the most success in my life by following a rigid very specific plan I think personally that financial planning is so much behavioral Above and beyond all of the data because we all know what to do my favorite phrase recently as if if information was all that was required We'd all be millionaires with six packs I don't I don't know where I heard that from but I love it and I say it all the time because we all know what to do Right spend less than you earn save some money invest it don't touch it You know diversify like all of these kind of buzzwords. We know what to do But it's the act of actually doing it and sometimes we need a group of like-minded people You know we were talking you're talking about like Facebook groups or whatever online groups one of the benefits of that is Just the pure motivation. I know when I had a ton of debt I remember listening to Dave Ramsey going this dude's motivating me to pay this stuff off And now I listen to Dave Ramsey and I go man. He's kind of a jerk You know, but it was the message and messenger at the right time And so a lot of these decisions I think are around your personal motivation and around what what will drive you to be successful And that's going to be different for everybody From a professional standpoint. We're working with somebody who's like Michael and Dana super analytic into the spreadsheets and and graphs and all that sort of fun stuff We better come with it, you know Because I can't just talk about rainbows and sunshine with those two and go it'll be fine guys and you know Right, they're not going to be super excited about that. They're not going to believe. Let's just hug it out It'll be okay But by the same token and we've talked about this I don't know Wednesday on Wednesday show if you have a partner or somebody in the planning relationship Who's not that and that's all you do is just jam spreadsheets down, you know, Adam then you've lost them too You know, so I think the best way to handle this from a personal standpoint is quite literally to get Know thyself what gets me going is it the analytic very specific stuff or is it the motivation and the the view from the other side of the mountain like Michael said that somebody else can provide me You know, do I need somebody to pull me or am I going to push it myself? I think you did a great job OG of setting up what I want our guests to help us with and which I think is a question that you already Answered which is ultimately around us. We're trying to make better decisions Which for me has always meant I want to have this board of directors on my team, right? I want these people that are smart people and it's funny whenever I read the non-financial media people talking about this The people that are talking to the the people that listen to stacking measurements They was talking about okay, make sure they're fee-only make sure that they're they're a fiduciary And I'm like that crap is all fine But I want people I know who are in my corner who seriously have my back and that's going to be my My team like I look at advisor even more I guess more holistically than just this checkbox thing that the industry provides or you know How they're Michael you talked about how they're regulated That's all finding good. I need deeper than that. What is a thing? I'd like both of you and Dana will start with you Give us a trait that I should be looking for for somebody who's going to be on my board of directors if I'm starting to put that together What's the trait I really want on my team? I think you want to be able to know they're going to communicate to you in a way you can understand So we actually say this that I haven't some of my articles or materials like you should go into an advisor With a set of questions some of which you know the answer to I mean it could be something simple like you know How do you decide my ratio of stocks to bonds or should I pay off my mortgage or something that you have some perspective on And you just want to see how they answer the question And you know are they answering in what you consider a you know a broad way are they covering all of the bases? Are they talking in language you can understand? Or are you kind of thinking wow they just went spinning in circles and I don't really know what they just said You know we talk a lot in terms of you do the math a lot of financial questions can be answered analytically and a spreadsheet we can come up with an answer But that's not always the answer sometimes the difference between paying off your mortgage or not might make five thousand dollars difference over a ten-year period right you go Really does that move the needle? No, so then you know You have to be able to separate that from the emotional side and and you want someone that can communicate Across those different dimensions and in someone that you can understand they're not just talking lingo and talking down to you I always got frustrated when I would hear people say you know I meet with my financial advisor I have no idea what the other talking about like I have no idea they're showing me these charts and graphs and I just kind of nod my head and Hey, it looks like we're doing good looks like we're great because I feel stupid if I That's exactly I feel you know and and definitely you should be in a in a situation where you don't have to say well I don't want to feel stupid so I just nod my head like that's horrible But I also think they know why you're talking you know when you're bringing up those examples I like it when the person on my team answers my question with a question Because that means they actually want to know more about me right Should I pay off my mortgage or should I invest? Well, let's talk about you first. Oh, yeah, that's a great perspective You know if you ask a question and they just spout off an answer without having gathered any data about you at all annuity You Munder net net Exactly, does that think you've got like merged out of existence a long time I mean at loss based on all its assets after a loss 90% of its value And I that's like a blaster in the past like the one hit wonder bands that you'd see and you're like what happened to munder net He literally had like a poster on his walk because he was one of their Big song I was like munder sent a poster. I think you have like a giant like a three-foot poster of this thing On this wall like a store remember the vision of it Like what's another trait we should look for and in people that are gonna be on our board of directors Well, Dana took my primary ones like everything she said I'll add to that by saying Education and expertise matters. So Again, like from the legal perspective for financial advisors like We need a two to three hour regulatory exam. You can study four in a couple of weeks And that's it You don't need any classes and finance or advice to be a financial advisor like that's the really sad actual truth of it So if you're finding someone to get advice. So I'm like to be on that team You need someone that actually chose to go get some additional education beyond that So that starts with designations like CFP certification There are now a growing crop of I call them like the post CFP designations for advisors that go even deeper in that direction You know retirement folks have things like RMA or RICP folks working with ultra high net worth have a CPWA designation for them Investment nerds go after CFA or SEMA So there's a lot of different Additional designations out there, but to me it starts with sort of two pieces one like do I see some education That says they've gone above and beyond the the regulatory minimum. So that's either degrees right? You can get financial you can get undergraduate and graduate degrees in financial planning now You couldn't 20 years ago So more experience advice just probably won't have them because they literally weren't around But do they have degrees or do they have designations that show Material effort of study above and beyond the regulatory minimums? I distinguished that a little bit from expertise Expertise is okay like I'm glad you have the book knowledge you do need that like I want my doctor to have gone to medical school But I also want them to actually have experience working with people like me So to me like the there's an education and expertise component education is essentially if you got in the book knowledge and invested that far Because sadly not requirement The expertise question is Tell me about other people like me that you've worked with can the advisor answer that question? And like it's not because you're supposed to do what their other client to do right in the nature of advice is Is individual the person but when we get back to those comments earlier of like I go to my Facebook groups My master classes in part because I want education. I want perspective of people have gone the journey So if I'm getting an advisor like I want an advisor who's actually had the perspective of seeing lots of people Yeah, do this journey so they can actually be a meaningful guide for me as I go on this journey So beyond the communication and that that Dana highlighted like that's where I would go next is do they have both education? If they invested in their learning to No more advice things to be able to share and and they actually have expertise in working with people like you because There is a wide range of folks out there. There are a wide range of advisors And there's there are wonderful advisors who don't know about your situation and your needs and problems right like I know a wonderful neurosurgeon I'm not gonna ask him to operate on my knee if I hurt my knee like I'm gonna go find a knee doctor Not the most brilliant brain doctor because they just do different things They can be really really good doctors and not be able to help you with your problem the same thing applies and financial Well, like OG said that it really if it starts with you right and then Dana communicating and then you've got the background and knowledge So I love all three of those I'm at a fourth of my own that I really like I think that your advisors should challenge you and challenge your thinking without disrespecting you Like where you clearly know they're on your team, but they go I think you're messing this up Because the last thing I need is another person going Joe you're brilliant Joe. That's great like I know that doesn't really help me often So you could use actually You can't see that up for us man. I just got to tell you guys I could hear that a little more frankly But I think it's a great place to leave it And by the way, we've had other episodes where we've talked about hiring advisors and things to look for We'll have those on our show notes page stack your measurements Let's find out what's happening with all of you this weekend OG you and I are headed for podcast movement. We're going to Denver. Oh, that's right. We're Feel in the jet as we speak Well, maybe maybe not hopefully Monday morning. Hopefully Monday morning. We will be there We'd love to have a meetup, but unfortunately, we're not going to be able to do that So Denver next time we will hit you when when we're there We'll have our guest of honor Michael go last Dana That doesn't mean you're not a guest of honor. It just means you're the frequent flyer here What's going on? What's going on a sensible money right now? Well, since you brought up masterclass. I will say I have a course on the great courses I think of it as like masterclass before there was masterclass Right the OG masterclass sometimes I've called the great courses like masterclass, but not quite as cool Just their branding is you know, it wasn't quite there But yes, it's called how to plan for the perfect retirement and uh, so if anyone's looking for more They can find that and I will also add I am getting married September 1st If you ever want to do an episode on pre-nubs We've made it through that process and uh, fascinating and so I would highly advise it and it's it's kind of a cool topic Dana, I'll indicate it on my response card, but chicken for me and my plus one We'll do the chicken not the seafood Have not that you would dug her BFFs. Yes, his plus one is the tasty freeze Banditure by the way Just let you know Michael, thank you so much for joining us again. It's been too long man. Yes, it has it has We'll figure out how to do this and not quite seven-year interval I can get this going a little bit more frequent I hope so because I think our stackers got a lot out of you being with us today and thank you very much What's going on on your two podcasts? Let's talk about it. Oh man um We're just continuing to chug along You know kits is in Karl end of things just One episode after another digging deep into as you said like we we are sort of bordering on on business owner Entrepreneur therapy at this point is I think a little bit of what the The podcast is morphing into and all the all the challenges that we face on the On the advisor end You know financial advisor success we're coming up on episode number 350 Seven plus years freaks me out a little bit You know, we've hundreds of hours now For folks that are exploring financial advisor world if you heard like the good version of this and you're actually curious about More of what it's like just a big piece the podcast for us is to what you said earlier It's that perspective piece of if you really want to know what it's like from people in the trenches Just that's what we do one conversation after another for you really get to see the other side of the desk You get to see the life from the other side of the desk. It's super interesting We'll link to both podcasts on our show notes at Steki measurements.com You haven't had the best advisor on yet though. Oh gee you're you're saving OG for like the 400th episode or something Absolutely like we got to save but you got to do big milestone guests on miles you run a podcast Big guests on milestone episode Absolutely All right, that's gonna do it for today Doug man lots of takeaways, but what are our top three? Well Joe first go with what works Behave your wins the day every time even if the science tells you something else is optimal Second eating a dozen donuts every morning might have helped that one guy lose weight But it doesn't mean it'll work for your lazy butt same goes for financial advice Make sure you weigh the advice against your unique goals to see if it'll benefit you Now what the hell go ahead and eat the donuts Third Joe you're brilliant. I could listen to your sage wisdom all day long But the big lesson Okay, look I know this has nothing to do with today's episode But learn from something I just learned speaking of air It's probably a good idea to ask before hanging clothes to air dry in the neighbor's line Some people get a little utsi when they come home to another man's clothes drying in their yard I'm like look lady the wind and the sun were better in your backyard I don't think she would have been so upset if she didn't have a guilty conscience And I think it was the size of my inseam that upset her husband Oh my god Thanks to Michael Kitzis for joining us today. You'll find Michael Kitzis and Carl's podcast and is financial advisor success podcast Wherever you're listening to us right now Thanks to Dana on spa for joining the fun today. You'll find Dana at sensible money dot com We'll include all the links for Dana and Michael in our show notes at stacking Benjamin's dot com Thanks also to OG for joining us today looking for good financial planning help head to stacking Benjamin's dot com slash OG for his calendar This show is the property of SB podcasts LLC copyright 2023 and is created by Joe Salsihah our producer is Karen Rebine This show was written by Lacey Langford who's also the host of the military money show with help from me Joe and doc G from the earn an invest podcast Kevin Bailey helps us take a deeper dive into all the topics covered on each episode in our newsletter called the 201 You'll find the 411 on all things money at the 201 just visit stacking Benjamin's dot com slash 201 Tina ikenberg makes the video version of this show Once we bottle up all this goodness, we ship it to our engineer the amazing Steve Stewart Steve helps the rest of our team sound nearly as good as I do right now Why don't you out with friends about the show later mom's friend Gertrude and Kate Youngkin our our social media coordinators and Gertrude is the room mother in our Facebook group called the basement So say hello when you see us posting online to join all the basement fun with other stackers type stacking Benjamin's dot com slash basement Not only should yet not take advice from these nerds don't take advice from people you don't know This show is for entertainment purposes only before making any financial decisions speak with a real financial advisor I'm Joe's mom's neighbor Doug and we'll see you next time back here at the stacking Benjamin show You Makes a little sports analysis pop culture and great interviews and you've got the rich eyes and show podcasts the jets are Bracing themselves into doing hard knocks us here Bracing themselves look a coaches want to control the controllables They don't want to have a camera crew in the building You know, I know that they want to lie low This is what happens when you go and swing for the fences and get out of Rogers Are you kidding me the rich eyes and show podcast wherever you listen