226: YouTube Employee Reveals How to Grow Your Channel

Hey think fam we're about to get into the podcast but if you haven't heard yet we are doing a free three day youtube challenge there's been a lot of changes on youtube lately and there's a lot of new things we've been testing at think media so if you want to start or grow a youtube channel this year then you're going to want to register for this free three day challenge at tube 1k challenge.com or you can also go to the show notes to see all of the details there is two sessions a day it's three days long it's entirely free and we have a lot of cool stuff planned including camera giveaways gear giveaways and the information is hot off the presses so hit the link in the show notes to get registered and now let's get into the show is there a set formula for the youtube algorithm should I start a separate channel for shorts should I start a separate channel for my video podcast or should I keep it all on the same channel the ideal length is as short as possible but no shorter as long as you need for the story but no longer so how can a creator get their shorts viewers to watch their long form videos we make this beautiful video and it's the algorithms job to push to in front of as many people as possible when really the algorithm serves the viewers in this episode of the think media podcast I think you're going to learn everything you wish you knew about youtube but were afraid to ask ultimately I'm going to be talking today with a youtube employee that's going to be covering subjects like the algorithm like the new multiple formats podcasts shorts tips for all of the above as well as things like copyright strikes fair use the community tab we're going to be busted some myths this is a wide ranging conversation and I'm excited because our guest today is Renee Ritchie who is not just a youtube expert himself a current youtube employee but also a youtuber himself with over 328,000 subscribers making videos about technology and what it means for culture and our lives and is youtube liaison on twitter is actually a part of multiple twitter accounts multiple youtube channels and so we are going to dive deep today with about 642 questions that I've written down many from our community and so Renee welcome to the podcast thank you so much for having me it's great to be here so let's just dive straight into it we fired off a few questions and Katrina actually asked is there a set formula for the youtube algorithm a lot of people complain that the youtube algorithm sucks for example people get popular overnight versus those who've been posting consistently really how should we be thinking about the algorithm yeah you know it's mutual friend Todd Bopray likes to say when everyone succeeds it's because of them when everyone is in trouble it's because of the algorithm it's because of him so I think that's just like as creators that's just our coping mechanism and I totally totally get that but I think the best way to look at the youtube algorithm is all the algorithm tries to do is to understand the audience and audience behaviors so it wants to see like which videos of the audience enjoying and part of that is competitive it's like if we both make videos the audience they have agency they get to choose they can click on your video or my video they have limited time and attention and if they watch your video for longer than my video and maybe watch another one of your videos afterwards your video is gonna do better than my video and the algorithm is gonna understand that it's gonna understand videos that you walk so it starts to understand what that video is videos people who watch videos similar to you but haven't seen that video yet and then it's gonna rank that based on things like satisfaction and personalized set of rankings based on like what you enjoy what you interacted with in the past then it's gonna decide which of those videos to show you and if you think about it youtube doesn't push videos for creators it pulls videos for viewers and I think as creators that's always hard to wrap our heads around we think we make this beautiful video and it's the algorithms job to push it in front of as many people as possible when really the algorithm serves the viewers and when they come to youtube it fills their phone or it fills their computer screen with you know at first maybe up to eight different videos and which one are you gonna click on you know your video might be in the bottom right and they see like a mark as video or a Jimmy video or Michelle Kare video or maybe they see your video and they click on that I got that impression I didn't get that click so I think that's the thing that would be helpful for creators to understand yeah highlighting some quotes don't think about the algorithm think about the audience and a better question than why did the algorithm not like this video is why didn't my audience or wider audience I want to reach like this video so replace audience or replace algorithm with audience question about multi formats youtube has been adding a lot of cool things lately of course we've seen that there's videos and now on our channel home pages we have videos separated out by live streams in the past then we added shorts and now that's a whole another tab now we've added podcasts and then if you keep going there's about there's the community tab so how should creators be thinking in a multi format world and many the big question here is creators wondering should I start a separate channel for for shorts should I start a separate second channel for my video podcast or should I keep it all on the same channel yeah I think youtube right now it's all about options like these formats of videos exist in YouTube it's hugely popular now for short form videos 50 billion short form views a day I think is what we said in in December but also for podcasts there's just an enormous community in appetite for podcasts and we want to give viewers like the content that they want to watch and we want to help creators we want to enable creators to create that content for them and we don't want to artificially create limits so if we can put shorts on the same channel if you can put podcasts on the same channel that might be the best decision for your audience now it's going to vary it we like to say in general's terms same audience same channel different audience different channel but if you think the same people love your long form we're going to love your shorts and are going to love your podcasts we want you to be able to do that so we added things like being able to turn a playlist into a podcast separating out episodic analytics so that you can better understand how the podcast is performing giving you all those tools but it's also like Brian Cranston can be in Malcolm in the middle and in breaking bad but if that was one show it'd be really confusing for the audience so you have to sort of think of just because you're one creator doesn't mean everything should be on one channel it should be more like flip it around and think like a viewer and what would the viewer best understand on that channel or best enjoy if you were to start a podcast on your channel at Rene Richie where you're talking about technology would you keep it on the same channel I would if that podcast like for example if I was going to go every week and go through all the news like the top news on tech meme I would do it there or if I had a guest that was deeply like if I had Marques on one week I just Dean on the next week I would absolutely keep it on the same channel if I was doing something like adjacent to it where it wasn't like I didn't think anybody who watched my regular videos would also want to watch those videos or especially if it was like one or two steps adjacent like I was doing something about movies or I just don't I don't confuse my audience for me my audience is there for the topic and I want to make sure they they get the topic that they expect on that channel great and are you uploading both shorts and regular long form videos on your channel I'm playing around with it on the YouTube channels I'm doing a lot of shorts and a lot of long form on my personal channel I've experimented with long form I really like I really like reply with shorts I want to start leaning into that a lot more because I love the idea of conversational YouTube where I see a comment I hit the button I record a short it's in line with the comments and it's in the feed because there are a whole channels now where people are just having conversations with their comments and I think that's a really new and intriguing sort of meta for video so quickly to find that what is reply with shorts so if you if you have a long form video a live video or short form video and you get comments on that video you can go to the reply section and on the right on mobile there'll be a little shorts button and you tap that and it'll let you either record or upload a short that responds to that comment almost like back in the day of like reactions like responding videos and it'll also put a sticker with the comment on it so if anyone taps that sticker it'll take them back to the original video and the original comment so it's a nice way to sort of because before I think shorts over indexed on discovery under indexed on community almost the opposite of live where live was great for community but not so great for discovery and this sort of adds that whole community aspect into shorts and so I would imagine you could just kind of go raw off the cuff and record a video up to 60 seconds responding but if you're replying with a short you also could build it out five 10 seconds at a time add in some examples and actually craft a quality short because it not only is replying to that comment it's also in the feed and so it could be kind of a jump off point for inspiration and a short that again rather than just one 60 second recording you may show some b-roll in there cut back and forth shoot you could probably add music I mean it's it's the proper short creator correct yeah and we've seen like whole channels of this now especially like move like fandom channels where someone gives a hot take on the movie someone comments on that they respond to the comments someone comments on that response you have a whole chain of shorts going on that is very powerful do you have tips for creators that want to do video podcasting specifically and what is kind of the opportunity now the big podcast announcement has been made your if you categorize a podcast it can be on YouTube music I believe that's in the US right now and so there's the YouTube music opportunity there's the specific features there's a couple discoverability things that YouTube has been saying so what what should we be thinking about as far as podcasting on YouTube any kind of best practices or just the opportunity that's coming down the line yeah I think in general like just give you the opportunity to have your podcast serve an audio form and in video form and we've seen like there's a huge market now a huge appetite for video I don't think it's exactly the same a shorter form video where someone might lean in want to watch every second I think it's going to be more ambient where people are like watching a little bit working back you know back coming around the house working out something like that but there does create a human connection when you can see the people and you look at them in their eyes and they're talking to each other they have some graphics up it just makes it a more understandable experience for some people so I think if you're even if you're concentrating on audio think a little bit about the visual medium and how you're explaining it in general for videos like craft the experience that you want the viewers to have I think that's always worth your time to just think out again think like a viewer if I'm watching this what experience would I enjoy and then try to give them that we're talking about multi format we've touched on podcasts and now back on shorts a lot of questions coming in about okay I've been posting shorts my shorts are maybe getting a lot of views but they're not translating to my long form videos so how can a creator get their shorts viewers to watch their long form videos yeah so I think the first big question is is that what you really want you know and it might be that there are only there are people who only watch shorts and there are people who only watch certain topics on shorts like I will watch a short about dancing but I'm not going to watch 12 minute VOD on dancing like a long form video on dancing and then you have people who watch both so I think like if you want to tap into that shorts first audience which tends to be very young very on the go it might be worth while engaging with shorts even if they're not like a billboard for your long form content if you really want to use shorts as a way to promote your long form when we first launched shorts taught us looking about this before we sort of didn't think it all the way through and people started watching shorts and then we thought they liked under one minute videos we started recommending a ton of one minute long long form videos for them and that was just could not go on so we split the watch history in half and so for a while the watch history and the recommendations for shorts and for long form are completely separate now what we're doing is going back and building what we're calling these bridges like different lanes and these bridges so if someone does watch your shorts we're now more likely to record and they also watch long form because some people again just watch shorts but if they do watch shorts and they also engage with long form will be more likely to recommend long form videos from creators that they're enjoying from shorts I think that's just the beginning of ways we've also put a live avatar now on shorts so if you see if you're watching a short and there's like a ring around it you can tap that and go and meet into the person's lives so you can it's like a timely notification for that so we want to keep building bridges between all of those formats what's the ideal and best percentage people should be shooting for when it comes to viewed versus swiped away and I don't know if you're able to disclose but how is viewed versus swiped away even calculated considering some shorts could be three seconds some shorts could be 58 seconds that's a feature now we can see inside of our analytics which is viewed versus swiped away and obviously not swiping away from our videos is better we want that percentage as high as possible any advice there or information so that's one of the reasons we don't actually disclose what of like what a time how much a time of view is whether it's like for a short or auto play because we might change depending on the conditions between depending on how the products of all and also we don't only want to game the system just make shorts that are only engaging for that length of time but in general we want like intentionality we want to make sure the person intends to watch the short it's basically like are you clicking with your intention instead of with your your tap or your click on a on a computer and then this was a stat that we have CTR click-through rate on long form video and that basically means we show a bunch of impressions what percentage of those impressions do people actually click on and start watching for a long enough amount of time that that view counted and there's no impressions in a short speed we just do views and that's confused some people because they'll see like a short spike in views which is really more like impressions so a new short comes out and we'll test it with your audience and if you don't have an audience yet you're a new creator sometimes we'll make a seed audience for you and then it's competitive like how are people responding to your short compared like relatively compared to other shorts that they're watching at the same time are they watching less of it more of it swiping faster are they looping it like all sorts of behaviors what's the response like viewed versus swiped away is analogous to CTR is just what percentage of people who are sampling your short are actually watching it the same way you think about what percentage of people who are getting impressions of your long form are actually clicking on it you probably won't quote magic numbers but is there a magic number or an ideal percentage this was a viewer question for like average view duration of a short for it to go viral or what ingredients would make a short go viral I think like part of it like there's never a set numbers the same thing on long form video like as a long form video it when it hits your core audience their attention might be really high because you know they love you and they went there more likely to watch a high percentage of your video but then as it starts going viral and it starts being served to bigger and bigger audiences those audiences are less and less well matched just because the volume is getting so great but it's such a huge amount the percentage of people watching like 3% of a million is so much bigger than 20% of a thousand that you're still racking up views and when you look at it's like oh like my CTR is way down my retention is way down but my views are way up and that's the sort of pressure that going viral does so I think some people look at it and say like what's the retention rate for like a short to go viral it's the same sort of pressure as more and more people see it there's more and more people who will like watch it yes but also swipe away so you'll see downward pressure on that rate so I think like you have to get a sense of how your shorts typically perform and then measure your new shorts against that sort of number like when I get this many impressions what's my usual retention when I get this many impressions when I have like a viral short and outliers are nice because everyone loves that flat retention line but doesn't teach you very much where when you have like an underperforming video or an overperforming video and you can see oh they dropped off here or are here all these spikes I guess that joked in land the way I intended it to land that's when you can start to get like done a gnarly data out of it so I think like figure out what's a good retention for your shorts with the average amount of views you get and then always try to improve that like seawards dropping off and they think like is there a B plot or a joke or a B to her like a reset I can do that we'll get that to continue and compete against you more than you compete against creators are very encouraged because now we can select a thumbnail for our short when uploading from mobile at the time of uploading do you think there will eventually be the ability to change thumbnails of previously posted shorts and you have any news in regards to the future of thumbnails for shorts like as a creator I feel like I want to control every little aspect of my short including like fully custom thumbnails but this is proven like a huge discussion point with creators even some of the biggest creators I think some people feel that for long form video thumbnails have become an industry unto themselves like they can spend days and days and incredible amounts of money making thumbnails like especially when you're at the top spectacle level of YouTube and so some characters like we don't want any part of that there's something beautiful about just uploading a short not having to worry about like making a competitive thumbnail like it's it doesn't show up on that many surfaces like in the short shelf in the shorts tab and it's one less thing I have to worry about please don't do that to me and then some people say well just don't use it like yes but then it becomes competitive so think like right now we're in the stage of just collecting feedbacks like you and you know everybody listening to this we'd love to hear everybody's feedback on it we want to take our time make sure we do it right because I think worse than than not releasing it would be releasing it like a bad version of it so we'd love to hear any and all feedback on like keep it super simple or give us all the options talking about videos long form video standard videos what is the ideal video length yeah I mean that's a really interesting question and like I don't mean this is a cop out at all but the ideal length is as short as possible but no shorter as long as you need for the story but no longer because we're finding especially now people have so many options not even on YouTube not even on multi format but there's all these streaming services and people can go outside again I mean there's so much competition for attention I think people can increasingly tell if you were just doing filler or like making a video longer than it needs to be and the tolerance levels for that are lower and you can see that in your skip like little like if you were starting to skip through your videos or jumping through chapters which I know it's a little bit controversial but you know sometimes chapters can show you where people would have just abandoned your video before but because they see something interesting in a later chapter they're willing to skip to that chapter that's an indicator that maybe the video is too long or not interesting enough to get them to watch through so I think the ideal length is what you have to explain in as concise and interesting way as dramatic a way as possible and then don't pat it out any more than you have to because people are getting more and more sensitive to that on your personal channel where you're talking about technology do you have a target or is it just random based on trying to make the video as concise but if the story takes a while then you'll go longer is there any video length you personally target I've been testing things like recently I went through like I went through a phase of like my Hayden Hillier Smith phase where I just like over edited like everything and a little bit of like the Mario juice like you know Jimmy retention editor phase where I was like cutting everything so it'd be maximum attention and then because I had left less time now that I'm working at YouTube I went through a phase where it was like Charlie penguin Z Ludwig mobile mail no editing like I'm just gonna talk I'm gonna just like extemporaneously and that's a beautiful thing about YouTube is that we do have like these incredibly tightly edited like Jimmy or Eric videos where there's not a second that hasn't been considered and they get millions and millions of views and then you have Charlie and Ludwig uploading like three times a day and the video gets a million views and they all it is like a little white iPod like I phone uh head pod and people just interested in what they have to say so I think like I personally like to experiment I think shorter is better that's where I'm leading but I would encourage anybody to figure out like what their style is what their audience vibes with the name for that what is the best upload schedule for YouTube yeah so this goes right back to replace it with the audience so what is the best upload schedule for your audience and if your audience does care about when you upload then you should care about when you upload and that can be things like breaking news where they expect you to have timely coverage you know some channels put up three four five videos a day of breaking news and that has a shelf life and so it's very important to get that up almost immediately time of day doesn't matter as much but the timeliness really matters and then you have channels like Mark Rober once a month you know Nile Redd I think like two or three times a year maybe and they get untold millions of views and it's like science-y and they have a very different expectation so I think like figure out what of course like figure out what's best for your own well-being like you your family everything that's important to you and then one of the cool things I tried is I did I did one video two videos three videos four videos a week uh for a while and then I did uh videos published compared to average views per viewer and I could see where people were hungry for more and the more videos I published they started watching more and then I was like out towards four I could see that they're starting to choose between them like they were coming to YouTube and seeing two videos or and they're like I only had time to watch one and that was like the loud diminishing returns hidden immediately if my views are dropping over time what's going on whose fault is it and what should I do so there's a couple things like I always believe like there are certainly times when like they're like bugs or there are things that go wrong or like like the world's most brilliant video doesn't get the views that it deserves but again going back to it being a competitive market is it could be a lot of things I always like to feel empowered so I want to think like I have a lot of control over this so for example what I see frequently almost most frequently I think is people just say my views are down everyone I'm talking to as their views are down YouTube must have changed the algorithm which is not really how the algorithm works it kind of evolved it doesn't really change that much so I you go into analytics and you look and most of the time you'll see a huge spike video like one video just smashed it was incredible the huge spike and then that video dropped at some point and after it dropped the views went back to about maybe a little higher than normal but about what it was before that video and people see that reflected in their analytics as minus views or like my views are down when really it's at one outliner video and then the people whose views aren't down don't respond to them but the people who also have a similar thing will say yes yes me too and they think that oh something must have changed but there's a lot of value in just looking inside analytics and seeing not just like what's happening on the month but go to the year and see if there are any of those big spikes and from a 30,000-foot Google YouTube level is seasonality platform-wide something that is real or is it just I mean in one country certain things could be like on a macro level is there waves of seasonality in terms of consumption yeah I think so like globally it's probably harder to measure because like you have northern and southern hemisphere and people have different schedules but for a long time I think we've talked about when people go back to school there tends to be a change in in viewership just be like they go back to they go to high school they go to college where people tend to mostly watch throughout the week during summer vacation they go back to watching more on weekends and they do during the week doesn't mean you have to publish on weekends it's like if somebody makes you a sandwich while you're napping and you wake up and you're hungry you're still gonna eat that sandwich so you don't have to overthink it but there tends to be more people watching uh like throughout the week in the summer in in North America and then more on weekends because they're busy at school or work and sometimes that also changes their viewing habits like they're they're they watch different types of videos depending on like whether it's like a sport season they enjoy they watch more sports content if like if like a new political season is ramping up they might watch more political content if it's like September and all the big technical new phones are coming out they might watch more tech content in September I think there's a lot of seasonality that goes around we're recording this on June 5th 2023 and right now when I look at when your viewers are on YouTube the interesting thing using the sandwich analogy we're making the sandwiches throughout the week we don't really upload on Sunday we usually schedule a short for the days we don't upload but right now shockingly enough Sunday starting at 7 a.m. is the time when it's the darkest purple inside of my YouTube analytics starting at 7 a.m. Pacific Standard Time of course our local time there is a five hour block when almost you know it says very many of your viewers are on YouTube and it's darker purple than any other day of the week obviously we're speaking to an exact moment and I'm just asking you for your personal opinion main thing is maybe why would that happen which just happens to be June people are watching obviously on Sunday but would you recommend in light of that data that we are thoughtful about a proper upload at that time or does it not matter and we shouldn't overthink it yeah I think that is more just how to calibrate your own expectations so if you upload in the middle of the night your views are the acceleration on your views is going to be lower because there's less people around to watch it so if you see a lower number than you expect in analytics like wow this video is not taking off oh it's a middle of the night there's not a lot of people around to watch it but if you saw that in prime time like oh there's a problem with this video I need to change the thumbnail immediately because people are around to watch it and they're choosing not to watch it I think those sorts of things we want to give you as much context around that is possible you can decide that my personality is I need to see instant results so I'm going to look at this and see when people are up and give them the video then or it could be I don't like analytics I don't care what it is I'm going to put it up whenever and it's just I'm letting the spurred free in the sky and that's all I'm going to care about we just want to give you the information to help you decide make all those decisions for yourself so we've talked about videos and podcasts and shorts but there was recent news google is killing or has already killed youtube stories why is that and what is the future we started investing so much into shorts and into community posts and just putting more and more features in there and if it became clear there was an overlap and there's always only so many hours in the day like even when you have these huge companies there's so many engineers so many hours so many days and the question became like where what's the best place to invest that energy and stories started to feel a little bit duplicative and a little bit limited compared to what we could do if we invested more into community posts for example you have evaporating community posts now we're working with stickers and community posts we're really building them out to be more robust and they can they can support a much wider range of content than stories could and the same time shorts give you a much better like palette for video and they give you like features like reply with a short remix all these things that you could add to stories but then again you're just duplicating features so think we chose rather than have like these three things that were splitting attention on we're gonna focus on these two elements of them and give them as much attention as possible so speaking of the community tab why do I sometimes get new subscribers from my community tab posts I think it's because something resonates with them like subscriptions subscriptions are interesting they mean different things to different people like some people especially old school people like us have been on YouTube forever it's like no this is my feed I want this channel in my feed I'm pressing that button therefore it's in my feed but I think for some people now it's like that was an amazing video subscribe is like a super like or like a super you know hands up or it's like I have this set of videos that I just want to be able to go back and reference because I'm learning a new hobby like I'm getting into woodworking so I'm gonna subscribe to all these woodworking channels so when I'm ready to learn woodworking I go there and they're all collected for me and then like a year later they don't care about woodworking anymore so like it serves all these different purposes and some people probably come to your community posts and they like what you posted there they discover your channel that way and they find that interesting and so they subscribe because they don't want to lose track of you so to be clear community posts can be seen by unsubscribed channels well of course they could be seen if they were sought out but they can they actually have a form of discoverability and I'm speaking to my analytics where it'll give me community tab analytics will show up and it'll say it's not super significant but sometimes it'll be 18 new subscribers gained from community that means that there is some kind of potential distribution to non-subscribed channels or maybe somebody that's never seen thick media before is that true or false I'm not 100% sure that I can find that out for you I do think there is some element of discoverability I don't know how much or where and what surface is but it's also always possible that if it's a very low number it's just people who unsubscribed and then re-subscribed or you know something else like they fat fingered it while they were looking at your channel and corrected that is there an ideal amount of community tab posts a day or a limit is every day too much is three times a day too much what are your thoughts I think like in terms of notifications I think we we notify like once once a day something like that it might be once every couple of days notifications we can discuss how valid important they are in a it's just like in a world where everyone is so busy now again it comes down to your audience like some channels want to be totally engaged with their audience the audience expects it it's like a very chat-based community they want to be there every day they land on the community posts they want to interact with you and they might you know gobble up two or three posts a day other people might just other channels other topics they might not be that interested or maybe you haven't nurtured it as much so it's one of the things where again I would experiment like if you haven't done them at all start with doing one or two a week and if you see people are really engaging with them add like a poll add like a quiz try the different formats out and see what really works well for your audience our notifications relevant in a world where everyone is so busy yeah so I mean like a lot of these I think a lot of these things are when creators feel like oh my video didn't get as many views as it could be my subscribers told me they didn't see it they claim they didn't get a notification and one of the nice things about YouTube is that we have all this data so you can go in and you can see how many people have turned on notifications and set the bell to all and like for my channel it's 14% but then right under that I can see that 6% of those people then turned off notifications for the app so for whatever reason they're like they they put on notifications for all these channels at some point they're like either it was annoying to them or they just needed to break they just turned off notifications for the app which means they'll never see those so even though they have them on never gonna see it and then I go down to traffic sources and I see like 1% of people have clicked on them and to me that just means that they're probably out they're busy notification comes in tells me I have a video but they're not gonna click on it because they're doing a bunch of other stuff but when they come back they'll open up YouTube and that video will be on their home screen and they'll watch it from there because that's where the traffic source is telling me they're watching it from even though like on the on the smartphone level seems like every year they're you know Apple or Google's announcing deliver quietly or stack notifications or mute notifications or do not disturb modes because I think like people are just dealing with a huge volume of this and we forget to think like viewers like yes they have notifications on everyone should get my notification but they have 100 or 1000 channels they subscribe to and it's just not it's not manageable talking about copyright and fair use so AI is a huge trend and there's the movement of what people would call faceless channels some people making videos describe that they created a channel that's maybe using B-roll which is legitimate to use perhaps clips from fair use content it may or may not qualify for that they're using royalty free music there may be using an AI voice over and they're almost they're leveraging all kinds of different software and tools and so using their creativity to put content together can an AI channel actually qualify for monetization I know that's a loose quotes around an AI channel but a channel the an AI voice over and yeah can that qualify for monetization yeah I honestly don't know at this point I think that's such a new question is such a new thing and we know like from the past not every human generator channel has qualified for monetization and I don't know if this will be this is one of those things where you hear Sundar Pichai or Neal Mohan or the heads of other big tech companies talk about in Microsoft site in Adela talk about like do we need to identify AI channels through there be a big generated label on anything that's coming in by AI how do we deal with this how do we deal deal with likeness rights how do we deal with performance rights all of these questions I'm not a legal expert so I don't know about any of that kind of stuff and I do see AI as a tool I mean like back in my day we were airbrushing things and then now you have like CAD programs and you have Photoshop and then you have like 3d brush program so these are all tools that can make any artist better and I'm guessing it's going to be on a spectrum from people who make breathtaking generated art that just comes from the depth of the human soul and other people have like an automated machine that stamping it out like like soda crackers and they'll probably be like some lion in between but I have no idea where that's going to be yet it's just way too new now listen that was just part one of my conversation with Renee Richie so make sure you're subscribed so that you don't miss part two and if you got value out of the episode it means the world if you like rate and review wherever you listen to the think media podcast check out the show notes for links to everything we talked about including Renee's channels and the youtube creator insider channel and I'll see you on the next episode