A conversation with Ambassador Linda Thomas-Greenfield

Hello, I'm Esther Perel, I'm a psychotherapist and host of the podcast Where Should We Begin. I invite you to enter into my office and to listen in on the sessions that I conduct with people from all walks of life grappling with the challenges and choices in their relationships. I'll be dropping new episodes every Monday starting July 10. Listen and follow Where Should We Begin on your favorite podcast app. The second season of And Just Like That is here and so is the discourse over its performative wokeness. Succession is sex in the city on steroids with no boning. We don't police like the prestige-y stuff in this way. We don't critique the program's men like to watch in this way. A critique and defense of and just like that. From one of the show's very own writers, this week on Into It, Vultures Pop Culture Podcast. Hello and welcome to another episode of The Weeds. I'm Jacqueline Hill. A couple weeks ago, we recorded a live show at TruCon 2023 here in DC. TruCon, for those who don't know, is an annual conference hosted by the Truman Center for National Policy. They bring together journalists and policymakers to talk about the latest in national security. I had the opportunity to sit down with Linda Thomas Greenfield, the US ambassador to the UN. It was a great conversation and we wanted to share it with you. UN ambassador is her job now, but before that, she worked as a career diplomat for nearly four decades. Her career has taken her all around the world, but one of her many areas of expertise is Africa. The reason I wanted to get into the African continent in particular is because of the way it's usually discussed. Something I've always noticed is that news coverage of Africa can often feel like an afterthought. And when it is in the news, the countries are discussed as a monolith. But there are 54 countries on the continent, each with their own history and culture and contacts. And even though they aren't always mentioned in the top headlines, Africa is playing a major role in international relations right now. For example, experts and analysts have their eyes on Russia and China's relationship with the continent. The US is investing more and more there, and the recent conflict in Sudan could have a lasting impact on stability in the region. I ask Ambassador Thomas Greenfield about all of this, and you'll hear some audience questions as well. Enjoy the show! Hello, everyone. Make some noise for yourselves for coming out here today. Welcome to TrueCon 2023 and to our live taping of the weeds, Vox's Policy and Politics podcast. I'm John Blan Hill, and like a lot of you in the audience today, I'm a policy nerd. And I can't lie, the part of me that did model you in back in high school is real excited right now. I'm thrilled to be joined today by a woman who doesn't need an introduction, but I will attempt to give one anyway. Before Ambassador Linda Thomas Greenfield began serving as the US ambassador to the United Nations, she had already retired from a nearly four decade career as a diplomat. During that time, she served as the Assistant Secretary of State for African Affairs and had postings in several countries, including Liberia, Kenya, and Nigeria. This only touches on a few of her many credentials, but for this conversation, I wanted to zoom in on the African continent and its role in geopolitics right now. Ambassador Thomas Greenfield, thanks so much for joining me. Thank you. I'm delighted to be here. So before we jump into the real meat and potatoes of the conversation, I want to address an elephant in the room. And that's that we are two black people talking about foreign policy. And sadly, you don't see that all that often. How helpful are you about diversity in the foreign service? And what steps need to be taken to get people from different backgrounds involved? Well, thank you. And you know that that has been a real priority for me throughout my career. I served one of the positions I served in was Director of personnel, the Director General of the Foreign Service and the State Department. And really, what we should do is what you did. It's modeled you in. It is getting out to communities, talking to young people so that they know that this is a career option for them. I didn't know it was a career option for me. I gave a speech at a high school recently for a graduation. And I told them I never had a me come and speak to my high school class. So I didn't know diplomacy was an option. Now they have that knowledge as they go off to college. And so again, I just think it's reaching out to young people at a young age, encouraging them. And for those of us who have already reached positions like I'm in, to mentor those who are coming behind. And I spend an inordinate amount of time mentoring young people who are interested in foreign affairs careers. I want to pivot to Africa now. What's the big picture vision the Biden administration has for the continent? And in particular, I'm interested in what came out of the summit the president hosted and what comes next. You know, Africa. And I again, I spent most of my career in Africa as you saw from my bio. And Africa is the new frontier. It is the last frontier. It is the continent that has the only continent left that has all of the resources needed to make a difference in the future. They have a really strong youth population. The media made just 19. That young population will be populating jobs around the world in the future. Africa still has natural resources that have not been tapped. And those natural resources will be important as we look at what is needed in the future. So again, we felt when we hosted the leaders summit in December that we needed to reaffirm our commitment, our relationship, our partnership with the African continent. And I think we accomplished that and we continue to work on that. Next up, more of my conversation with Ambassador Thomas Greenfield, including the US's Roland Sudan. Support for this episode comes from Ramp. If you've ever had a nightmare of featuring piles and piles of loose receipts, or if you just get the sense that your finance software isn't up to snuff, you might want to check out Ramp. Ramp is a corporate card and expense management software designed to help you save time and put money back in your pocket. The platform gives finance teams a ton of control and insight into company spend, allowing you to issue cards to every employee with customizable limits and restrictions. Plus, Ramp makes it easy to automate expense reporting so you can stop panicking about that growing pile of receipts. The software collects and categorizes all those expenses in real time, which can save your business serious time and serious money. 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None. Today explained in your feeds every weekday at 2 p.m. It's the weeds. I'm Jacqueline Hill, and we're back sharing a conversation I had with UN Ambassador Linda Thomas Greenfield a few weeks ago. Before the break, we talked about the Biden administration's vision for the African continent. I also wanted to ask her about the recent conflict in Sudan. For a quick refresher, the struggle in Sudan is between two opposing military factions. On one hand, you have the official military. The Sudanese armed forces, led by General Abdul Fatah Al-Burhan. And on the other hand, you have the paramilitary group RSF, the rapid support forces, who are led by General Muhammad Hamdum Dugalo. He's also known as Hameddi. I want to zero in on one of the top stories right now, and that Sudan, prior to the current conflict, it really seemed like that country was on track to become a full-fledged democracy. Going against a trend we're seeing across the globe towards autocracy, what do you say to critics who point the finger at the U.S. in this, particularly for working with the military and the rapid support forces? These two generals are responsible for this situation. The civilians civil society really stood up for democracy, and we supported them. The United States backed their effort, and we backed the transitional government. And then two military guys who were fighting for power, fighting for their own ambitions, have now taken this country ten steps backward. And we need to get back to a situation where civilians are leading the process. There's a transition that have civilians in leadership roles, and supporting this country's move toward democracy. It's easy to blame the U.N. to blame the United States to blame the world. The blame is on the two, on the shoulders of these two individuals who started this conflict and they can end it, and they should. What role do you see the U.S. playing in ending that conflict? Do you see the U.S. playing a role in ending that conflict? Absolutely. We are engaged in trying to find a solution, bringing the two parties to the negotiating table, pushing the efforts and supporting the efforts of the region to take leadership on this situation. And we're expected to play that role. So it is something where those parties who are engaged want to have the U.S. involved. And in what way do you see the U.S. playing that role, though? Like, what are the actions that we could or should be taking? Well, you may know that just yesterday, we announced sanctions on the two leaders. We have put some travel restrictions out. These are restrictions on individuals who are involved in this violence. And I think that is the first step toward accountability, because people do want accountability when you have a situation like what we see happening in Sudan. And they look to the U.S. to lead on the accountability front. But we've also worked hard to help to find a solution that will lead to cease fire so that humanitarian assistance can get in. And again, we're the largest contributor to humanitarian programs in Sudan, but all over the world. And this is something that is very much appreciated by the people of Sudan. But I also think others around the world who watch us as we engage on these issues. I want to get into another top story. Some African nations have decided to remain neutral when it comes to the war between Russia and Ukraine. African countries made up about half of the abstinence during a UN vote to condemn Russia. And leaders from six African nations are set to meet separately with President Putin and Zelensky. What do you see as these nations possible role in that conflict? You know, the first, the six nations who have offered to be involved in trying to find a peaceful solution. This is something we support. All of us want peace. But peace will start with Russia. Russia started this unprovoked aggression against Ukraine. Russia's Russian troops are inside of Ukraine. And this war will end tomorrow if Russia pulled their troops out and stop the fighting. So for us, and we've been clear on that, you cannot be neutral when there is an attack on the very values that we all hold dear that are founded in the UN charter that we all signed on to. Russia has broken all of those rules and until they stop this fighting and until they engage on finding a solution we won't have one. And our position has also been clear that there cannot be negotiations that cannot be peace without Ukraine. We can't do this without Ukraine. Ukraine has to be part of the discussions and we have encouraged all of these countries who have expressed an interest in finding a peaceful solution to also engage with Ukraine. I want to dig into South Africa in particular. Putin was recently invited to the country and there are credible allegations that South Africa supplied arms to Russia. Did this come as a surprise to you? We have a strong partnership with South Africa. It's a partnership that we have worked over many, many years to reaffirm. But we're also clear that any support to Russia's unprovoked aggression against Ukraine is unacceptable. We're not telling South Africa what their foreign policy should be. So their decision on President Putin is their decision. But Putin is a war criminal. Putin has been convicted or he's being prosecuted by the ICC. And the accountability for him being the leader of what has been a consistent and high level of human rights violations against the Ukrainian people I think has to be taken into account by any country who makes the decision that will make the decision to engage with him. Why are we seeing these countries straddle the fence when it comes to Ukraine and Russia? Is it that the West has it given them a compelling argument? Is it something else? What's going on? I can't speak for these countries. We don't tell countries what their foreign policy should be, as I said earlier. What we can say is if you believe in sovereignty, if you believe in the integrity of borders, if you believe in the UN charter, then you can't support Russia. The decisions that countries have made. And actually, it's only been about six countries total that have voted with Russia. The vast majority of countries 140 plus have voted against Russia in the two resolutions that we've put forward. And some countries have made the decision to abstain and they have to explain that themselves. Speaking of South Africa, that nation has been very vocal about UN Security Council reform. Namely, adding permanent members from the continent, President Biden has come out in support of this. I'm curious what you think of the possible additions and also why we're seeing the shift now. Well, you've seen the shift now because we made the shift. I gave a speech in September in San Francisco that outlined our vision for UN Security Council reform and how we will intend to move forward. President Biden gave a very well-watched speech during high level week later in September in which he announced that the US would support additional permanent and non-permanent members of the Security Council, the elected members, and that the US would support additional permanent members from Africa, from Latin America, and the Caribbean, as well as other parts of the world. That actually ramped up a conversation on UN reform. I have continued over the course of the past few months what I've called a listening tour among all of the countries and regions in the UN to get their ideas, their solutions, their recommendations, and we will be looking at those over the course of the next months to see what our next steps ought to be on UN reform. But again, countries are watching the US, and I think South Africa is also watching what we're doing and what we're saying as they look at what they would like to see in terms of UN reform. So the US and China share an interest in Africa, and like you said before, it's rich in resources, it has a large and young population, and it has soft power too. You know, there are so many music artists and movies coming out of Africa. If you grab my phone right now, I'm probably listening to Burnaboy, like they're everywhere. But meanwhile, China has made real inroads on the continent. In regards to infrastructure, there's the Belt and Road Initiative, China Setup Telecom infrastructure in over 30 countries. There are exchange programs for students. Are you worried at all about China's influence on the continent? Our Africa policy is our Africa policy. It is not about China. It is about our partnership with Africa, and our partnership is long-term. We've been on this continent since the beginning, and I always refer to the fact that we have a diaspora here in the United States. China does not have an African diaspora living in China. There are people who are American citizens who have backgrounds and touch every single country on the continent of Africa. Our relationship on that continent is strong, and we're working to build that relationship and make it even stronger, and we think we're making progress. We're not telling African countries they shouldn't have a relationship with China. They shouldn't trade with China. We trade with China. But we want to ensure that the partnership that we build with the continent, with the people of Africa, is a long-term partnership, a long-term relationship that African people will benefit from as a result of that relationship. How is the US navigating the overlapping interests when countries want to work with both the US and with China? It's fine. We're not telling African countries they shouldn't work with China. They should work with countries, and they can choose to work with countries that meet their interests. If they're able to work with China and meet the goals that they have, we're not telling them not to do that. Our policy is about what we do with Africa. If you look at programs like PEPFAR, the Malaria Initiative, what we have done in the area of HIV and AIDS on the continent of Africa, AGOA, those relationships are very, very strong. I think if you ask, and I've seen some surveys that have been done if you ask ordinary Africans what their preferences are, they will clearly state those preferences are to be aligned with the United States. A critique that not just the US, but the West in general gets is that they don't really pay attention to Africa until something happens. And it's arguable that that's partially why China and to an extent Russia have been able to form relationships the way they have. I'm curious how, what are some ways the US has misstepped in Africa in the past? And what's the plan for course correction in building a closer relationship with the continent? I would turn that question around. Again, our relationship with the continent is long term. I went to Africa first in 1976. I'm an Africanist. I spent my whole career in Africa. It annoys me when I hear people say we ignore Africa. And then I want to know what I've been doing for 40 years. And I'm not the only one. We pay attention to this continent. We engage with the continent. We engage with the people of Africa. And it didn't just start when the Chinese came on board. The Chinese came late. They're new to this continent. We've been there since day one. We recognize we were the first country to recognize Ghana in 1957 when they got their independence. And if you look across the board, we have been engaging in the continent. Now, yes, we are there when there's trouble. Because your friends need you even more when there's trouble. There is a famine butting in the Horn of Africa. Because of US funding, we were able to avert that famine last year. We gave almost $2.5 billion to the Horn of Africa to avert the famine. And this is something that the Chinese can't. It's soft power, but it saves lives. And Africa knows when they are in trouble. We will be there. And it is not we're not fair weather friends. We are friends who are there in bad times and in good times. We have to take a quick break, but when we're back, more of my conversation with Ambassador Thomas Greenfield and some questions from the audience too. I'm Neima Reza and I produce and I'm on the podcast on with Cara Swisher. Last week, Cara and I went out to Martha Stewart's house and it was, well, just have a listen. Let's put the scene a little bit. Okay, the scene is we come in, we get taken in another vehicle throughout the estate. There's chickens, there's peacocks. There's horses, there's horses, there's stables. And there's a giant copper pot, which is the size of you actually get in the copper pot. That's perfectly the size of you. She could cook us into chili and that thing you could interview. And it would be delicious. Don't worry, we didn't get cooked in the cauldron, but thanks to Martha Stewart, the interview did get spicy. I was hired by Mark Burnett to fire Donald to say you're fired, just like he had said to hundreds of people during his apprentice. I was to fire him and take over. Oh, Martha, to hear why she says she didn't get to fire Trump, listen to on with Cara Swisher, wherever you get your podcasts. This September, the Code Conference enters a new era. Join me, Neili Patel, Editor-in-Chief of the Verge and my two co-hosts. Platformers Casey Newton and CNBC's Julia Borson, is we talked to the leaders making headlines and tech, business, politics, and the messy collation between them all. We'll dig deep into the topics that are shaping our world, like AI, streaming, and the future of social media. And as always with code, no one will be safe from the hot seat. You can apply to attend the code conference at voxmedia.com slash code. That's voxmedia.com slash code. Welcome back to the weeds. Once again, you're listening to a conversation I had with UN Ambassador Linda Thomas Greenfield a few weeks ago at TrueCon. We got a few questions from the audience, but first, I asked her about Uganda. Recently, the country enacted one of the harshest anti-LGBTQ laws in the world. The law, which was passed almost unanimously, means life imprisonment, and in some cases, the death penalty for anyone convicted of homosexuality. I want to look at another country as well. Here in the US, you know, it's June 2nd, it's Pride Month. We're going to see so many parades, so many celebrations. But Uganda has been in the news for its anti-LGBTQ laws. What are your thoughts on the rising anti-gay sentiment on the continent? You know, it is it is worrisome. You saw the president's statement on Uganda, what Uganda has done criminalizing homosexuality, really going against all the rights of the LGBT community is unacceptable. And it's happening all over the world. It's not just in Africa. We've seen it in other places in the world as well. And the US has made a strong stand against these these laws against criminalizing LGBT against imposing death sentences on people because of who they love. So we've been clear across the board. Uganda is the latest, but it is not the first. And we have to continue to engage on this issue wherever we see it everywhere in the world. I want to turn the proverbial mic over to the audience now. We have some audience questions that we collected prior to this. Arthur asks, should the United States be preparing for a multipolar world or securing our dominant position on the international stage? We are in a multipolar world. And we have worked to ensure that we are continuing to take a leadership role in that world. This is something that the world asked for for the few years that we stepped away from multilateralism. When we stepped out of the Human Rights Council, we were missed. And the day we came back, people applauded. They want US leadership. So our leadership is welcomed. But we also want to work with other partners in a world that has changed. This is not what this is not the world of immediately after World War II. This is not the world 70 years ago when the UN was created. This is why we support you in reform. And this is why we think that the UN should be and the Security Council should be more representative. I want to get to a question from Corey who asks, with the rise of authoritarianism around the world, threatening democracy, how are you countering foreign propaganda and disinformation that oftentimes can change elections around the world and impact our national security by creating false narratives around pandemics, human rights, climate security, and fragile democratic institutions? You know, that's the question we should ask all of. We should all ask ourselves because it is a problem that we're seeing around the world. But we still see the fact that in most places around the world, people want democracies. They want their governments to deliver. And they see that when there's a strong democracy, that democracy can deliver for their people. But I do think we have to ramp up our own narratives. We have to ramp up what we are doing around the world so that people know and they don't buy into the false narratives that are being perpetuated. Mariel asks, how is the UN Security Council and the broader UN system adapting and incorporating technologies, like AI, for instance, to address issues of human rights, peace and security, and sustainable development? What are the opportunities and risks of this for the UN's work and its workforce? You know, we had something called an area formula meeting. It's an informal meeting of the Security Council where we talked about cyber security and how technology can be used for good and try to understand how it is being used for bad. So this is something that we're all working on. The Secretary General has just appointed a new cyber envoy and we're working very closely with him as he tries to address some of these issues. We talk about women's peace and security and in the context of women's peace and security, we have also looked at how technologies can be used for good and try to understand how it's being used for bad as well. So this is something that is definitely a high priority for us and we will continue to improve our abilities in this area. Barbie asks, with respect to the Sustainable Development Goals summit this September, where does the US stand to rescue the SDGs by 2030 and how is the administration working with Congress to make the US a leader in fulfilling this multilateral commitment? You must have read some talking points I had recently where I've said we are ramping up our efforts to support the implementation of the SDGs. It includes working with Congress to ensure that we have the support from Congress to do the necessary work that we see and will need to be done over the course of the next few months and years. I think the SDGs summit that is taking place in September will be a key watermark for us on where we are and what we what else we need to do to make sure that we get there by 2030. How hopeful are you about getting Congress on board? I mean we're in such a polarized time right now. You know it's hard work but it's work that has to be done. I think we have had members of Congress who have been very supportive of these efforts on both sides but again it is something that we have to continue to work on. All right Ambassador Linda Thomas Greenfield thank you so much for joining me. Thank you and thank all of you for joining this live taping of the weeds give it up for yourselves. You can find new episodes every Wednesday wherever you get your podcasts. That's all for us today. Thank you to Ambassador Linda Thomas Greenfield for joining me. Our producers Sophie LaLonde, Krishanayala engineer this episode, a nook do so fact-checked it, our editorial director is A.M. Hall, and I'm your host, John Coenhill. Special thank you to the folks at TruCon for hosting us. The weeds is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Hey everyone it's Sophie, weeds producer. I'm pulling back the elusive production curtain to tell you that we want to hear from you. Have you ever lived somewhere with the Homeowners Association? What about a condo or a co-op? H.O.A. is an other community interest agreements like this basically function as tiny private governments and they can make rules about your living arrangements that the normal government can't like how often you need to mow your lawn or not being allowed to park your car in your own driveway or even the color of your drapes on the inside of your house. The weeds is collecting listener stories about their experiences with H.O.A.'s, condos, and co-ops and you guessed it, we want to hear from you all of it. The good, the bad, and the ugly. Send us a voice memo to weeds at Vox.com by June 30th, and we may use it in an upcoming episode. Happy listening!