AEW Collision, WWE’s domestic rights with Tony Maglio | Pollock & Thurston

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For the ones wearing many hats. For the ones who are hands-on, even from far away. And the ones keeping business moving forward. We are Granger. Offering professional grade industrial supplies. Plus real-time product availability and access to experts ready to answer your toughest questions. Call clickranger.com or just stop by. Granger. For the ones who get it done. Hello, everybody. It is John Pollack and Brandon Thurston, a Friday edition of the show on the state in 2023. How are you, Brandon? I'm fine, John. How are you? You know, the biggest question I have for you today is that on this date, this historic date of May 19th, in 2006, were you going and purchasing a ticket to Cino Evil starring Kane as WWE Studios went for their sophomore effort after the Marine and marketed this entire movie around the date of May 19th for a month? It's an example of how great Vincent Man is at branding. He loves branding and I think that was another example of how smart he is and how brilliant he is with branding and making people remember what the release date of that movie was. Seventeen years by the way. Did I see it? How did it do, by the way? Oh, how did it do? I feel like it had a good life on DVD if I am not mistaken. It was certainly not a bomb, I would say. Like in relative terms of WWE Studios successes, it would be in the small column of, all right, it did okay. Do you remember what happened last year on May 19th? Not a clue. What happened on May 19th? Man of temporary leave of absence. A temporary leave of absence. Oh, okay. Well, what a quiet ear sense at that point. Well, we are going to be joined at this point. Very special guest today. It was up front week in New York City. This man front and center, you know him as the executive editor of Business Coverage over at IndieWire, a very, very busy week for this man. Tony Maglio is with us. Tony, are you still alive and still standing after? You have been bombarded with networks telling you by our inventory. We have the next best thing coming up and it's all at your fingertips. I'm alive thanks to coffee and they don't have anything to sell this year because the writers are on strike and there are no shows. So you would think wrestling would have been at the forefront in other unscripted shows of the forefront and a lot of reality shows were. I wouldn't quite say the wrestling was as prominent as I might have guessed, but I'm alive. I'm hanging in there. I have two really young kids. One of them I slept on the floor of last night, the other one I slept in her trundle bed for a few hours. So up front are no up front. I was going to join you guys pretty exhausted. What were you going to see at the Moffat Nathanson conference? No, I didn't attend Moffat. I streamed maybe three or four and then I had one of my reporters stream another couple of them. It's like one of these things that was very ill timed because of the upfront but also very purposefully timed because all of the executives are in New York City for the upfront. Was the writer strike sort of the cloud over top all of these up front this week? Was this week specifically different from prior years just because this is so front and center and it was impossible to escape the elephant in the room this week? Yes, so the upfront suck for two reasons, more so than any other upfront may or may not suck depending on how you look at it. I'm a little bit jaded, I suppose, but advertisers love them. But yeah, the writer strike struck in two ways. Number one is there were no new shows to debut, which is generally the point of the upfront and some networks didn't put out a schedule, Fox didn't do it again for the second year in a row. Some schedules are a little bit subject to change, some had reruns on them because there's just no development pipeline without writers and if you're going to pick up new pilots, who's going to write them this summer? So it was a little more subdued and bland than typical years because of that. But more so, frankly, I mean, these are events that are for advertisers to be whined and to be dined. They're not really for me. You know, I'm there to cover as an impartial journalist, but the whole point of these things is let's give a photo op to these advertisers and give them some free drinks and let them meet their favorite celebrities that are, oh, on our network and wouldn't that be great to advertise on this person's new show? But if you don't have the actors and the actresses there because they won't cross a picket line, you really lose a whole lot of star power. So there were some athletes, there were some personalities from news programming and reality programming, but it really, this week very much versus previous years, lacked a whole lot of excitement. And I don't think it's just jaded old me who felt that way. I get the feeling there was a decent amount of disappointment from a lot of those who attend these things to see their favorite celebrities and take a picture and then probably be convinced to advertise on their programs. Is advertising bought like right there on the day by advertisers? It's a great question. So upfront negotiations generally last throughout the summer and then there's still scattered stuff that happens after that. But for the most part, you know, with the upfronts are for those and Brandon, of course, I know you pretty well at this point, you know what these things are. For any of your listeners who might not, they're essentially a time of year that's always in mid-May that is meant to show off the returning and the new programs to advertisers for the fall and sort of for mid-season. So it's this big dog and pony show of we're putting up our new shows and our returning shows and, you know, immediately after the upfront begin negotiations on what would you like to advertise on, what wouldn't you like to advertise on. And of course, there's all sorts of packages. It's not necessarily. Oh, I like this one program. I'd like to advertise on it, but I'm not really into your others. Though there are this optionality all over the place. But yeah, you know, normally when we consider the upfront negotiations done, it's usually mid-summer, late-summer and we'll report, hey, dollars went up by this, volume went up by that. And it's usually an upward trajectory because that's how life and inflation and economics work. But yeah, this year is going to be weird and different because we don't quite know, even though we have schedules for most of the networks, exactly what the fall will look like. If the WGA and the AMPTP come to terms in three weeks, which no one really thinks is going to happen, we could get some production going over the summer. If it's six months, we don't know what we're going to do in mid-season. So there's a whole lot still to be figured out and to be sorted out. But yeah, pretty much starts today. Is the, and we'll get on to kind of the professional wrestling side of things, but is sort of like July end of July, sort of the critical point where this strike then it really does start to blow up a lot of the fall season. Like what would you say is like the critical time that there's going to be the most pressure to try and resolve this? Yeah, it's going to be a couple months. You're probably around the right point because you know, what ends up happening is there are a lot of networks like NBC is very well prepared for this, for example. They've got a whole bunch of shows that were maybe not a whole bunch, three, four that were going to air in mid-season last year. They kept them for one reason or another. So they've got things in the can. And then there's all these reality shows and unscripted programming that they batch tape and they have these so far done, so far ahead of when their, their air date is. So there are contingency plans here. And then there are shows that are much easier to get going really quickly. That late July, frankly, could result in fall premieres. And then there are shows that are major undertakings that maybe don't, especially the new ones, don't even have writer's rooms formed. So if there's no, if there's scripts, you're okay. Come mid-July end of July. If there's no scripts, you're nowhere near production. So it really, truly frustrating answer, but it really, truly is like dependent completely upon the show, upon the genre, upon the network. And everyone's going to, you know, make do the best they can. But you're going to see a lot of reality programming and probably a lot of reruns come September. And the talk of TV is how much more it now relies on live sports and news. Was there more focus on sports and news in these up fronts than you're used to seeing in other years because of maybe not just that, but the lack of talents and then the expectation there's going to be some holdups because of the writer strike? Yeah, absolutely. It's a great question because you're right. Yet there were. Again, NBC Universal, for example, which was the very first upfront on Monday morning, their news talent personalities were basically the talent and personalities they had there. They had some bravo stuff. I don't necessarily recognize the bravo reality stores. They get a big reaction in the room. People seem to love the bravo con stuff. But yeah, their news personalities were introducing their drama shows, which would normally be like a star on a drama show who's doing that. So there was definitely more of a news and a sports presence at the upfront itself. I wouldn't quite say they're like ordering more sports and news programming per se to hedge if scripted stuff is not available. Maybe that's true in some cases on the sports side. And then the sports example you brought up Fox had Derek Jader, Alex Rodriguez, Gronk, Michael Strahan. So yeah, pretty much the only people that would come in because they are not reliant on writers and therefore not technically crossing a picket line or at least not doing so in a way that would be damaging to their career is sports news and reality programming people. So I do think you're going to see an uptick in promotion from all three of those genres and maybe an uptick in actual programming as well. But yeah, great question. Sports and news were all over the place. Those were the celebrities, honestly. That was it. The only wrestling talent or personalities who were present there, correct me if I'm wrong, were Bianca Belair and Montes Ford actually at the Disney upfront? Yeah. So Taz and Bianca were there. I talked to them at the party. They didn't participate in the actual upfront presentation, but talking to them at the party, they have a Hulu reality show like Miz and Misses, I suppose. They said it's not shot yet or anything like that. But they were there as Hulu reality stars, not necessarily as wrestlers beyond the fact that that's what they're primarily known for. But I think you're probably correct. I don't believe I saw any other actual wrestling talent, which I was surprised about. I think we'll get into there's probably good reason for that based on negotiation periods and rights periods. But yeah, Taz and Bianca were, that was it, they were my celebrities that were there. There are other people that wasn't, well, I don't like Troy Aikman because I'm a big Giants fan, but they're the Troy Aikman's of the world and the Joe Bucks of the world. I love Strayhan again as a Giants fan. But Arod and Jeter, they didn't stick around for the party. Gronk and Strayhan, I don't believe did. So yeah, you weren't running into a whole lot of famous people. If that's your thing at the parties, the Kardashians were at Disney because they have a reality show on Hulu. But as far as I know, they weren't at the party. So it was fairly limited in the celebrities you see. Disney's big celebrities to me were Taz and Bianca, but you know, Demar Hamlin of the Buffalo Bills, Brandon, I'm sure you would like to have seen him there. He was there. He got a lot of attention. That's about what this use upfront was like. No one from the Toronto Argonauts up here making their way down to the US upfronts. I can't really. No, John, I mean, somebody, one of the Argonauts served me sliders at one of the parties. No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't. Couldn't be. That would be in the upper echelon of the CFL at this point. So Monday, I mean, it really did come and go where there was really no news coming out on the WWE side. Of course, they are in their negotiations with NBC Universal and Fox. And I would assume Brandon by now we can comfortably say like they would be out of the exclusive negotiating window. I think a month after WrestleMania and the same impression was given on the earnings call that they're basically out of the window. Yeah, that's the impression I got as well. And again, there wasn't that much news or even chatter about WWE on Monday from NBCU and from Fox, which the silence spoke some volumes to me. I will say that for sure. The most interesting WWE talk of the week was Nick Khan at the Moffat Nathanson conference. I thought he was honestly, I was very impressed with him. I thought he was very good, but also surprisingly kind of outspoken is the right word, but candid maybe about the situation there. But yeah, you know, less typical up fronts. I get excited for seeing wrestlers and seeing athletes and you know, I'm sure some actors I suppose. And I didn't know whether we would get them at NBCU and Fox because they're really not tied to the WGA in any way, but we got nothing. I mean, there may have been a clip here and there in a package. I mean, I can tell you there was a clip here and there in a package, but very little, you know, anecdotally speaking, last year's Fox up front was a total disaster. Everyone's least favorite up front of all time because they did this weird thing where, you know, because there were still COVID concerns and they didn't have a schedule to release. They did a entirely prerecorded presentation in the space where we all just watched on video what we could have been watching at home and it was like in the middle of nowhere and it was painted everybody's butt. But I will say this, I didn't hate the Fox presentation because I thought they had a lot of wrestling presence at the time. They had Roman Reigns and the belts at the after party, which was, you know, good enough for someone like me. They thought that was cool, but yeah, just nothing, nothing this year that would lead you to believe like we're anywhere near re-upping deals as they currently stand. And the B still going to definitely be on Fox and NBCU for another year and a half. So it's not like it's going to expire in the fall. It's going to expire two falls from now. So is that is it just like less of a priority to get them in? You think maybe because it's sort of like a negotiation tactic? Like let's not celebrate them too hard right now because we have to make a deal with them. That's entirely how I take it is complete negotiating tactic. You know, you don't want to promise your affiliation with these brands that may not continue when you're talking about forming long-term advertising partnerships. Now that said, listen, let me be fair and say the advertisers know about Raw and about SmackDown and I'm sure many of them in the room are already advertising on it and maybe don't need to be sold as hard as in previous years. But yeah, everything to me reads like a negotiating tactic. If Warner Brothers Discovery didn't, you know, let's say they barely mentioned the NBA, that would set off alarm bells in my head as well, which wasn't necessarily the case and I'm not saying that. But yeah, the fact that, you know, when you have SmackDown is truly one of your marquee properties, it's expensive, yes, but it's a 52 week, a year performer on Friday nights is consistent for you. You know, Raw, I think Nick Khan is happy to point out is, you know, times three, it's three X, whatever USA's next show is and that's been on that network forever, on that night, forever and completely consumes prime time, whether we like three hours or not, you would think there'd be a little bit more of a shout out to that. But I guess arguably, if they feel like the awareness is exactly where it needs to be, then maybe a passing mention and a cool highlight of Roman Reigns spearing somebody is all they need. I don't quite think so. But you know, again, like we, the three of us and the wrestling fans who listen to you guys, we're the outliers. You know, these are, as I mentioned before, these, there's huge cheers for Bravo stars. I could not name one Bravo star to you and I work in the television business. I don't even work in the wrestling business like you guys. So maybe they know their audience, you know, Kathleen Finch, who oversees TBS and TNT at Warner Brothers Discovery, you know, her and I have talked about our shared love for HGTV. I don't quite know why wrestling by AEW is under her purview, beyond the fact that it's on her networks. So she's not overseeing, she always, she's overseeing TNT and TVF. She oversees them. But what I would personally do, and I know this is kind of a left turn, I, Luis, who is in charge of the sports there, I don't quite understand why it wouldn't be under his purview. So she's not over Kathleen Finch is not overseeing NBA, for example. No, no, no, no. I mean, you know, she, of course, is involved as it pertains to her schedules. But yeah, so anyway, so, you know, what I'm getting at, apologies for the rambling is like there are in that room, I don't know how well WWE and AEW plays. In our world, it's very important to us. And in the world of your listeners, it's very important to us. But it also just might be a very calculated decision that these advertisers are not generally your WWE fans. We're going to give them more of what actually excites them. And maybe that's Bravo. It sounds to me too. Like maybe there's some thought around is certainly in AEW's case, it seems this way. And it seems this way for Raw and NBCU where they're not overseen by the sports people. They're put in with other types of general entertainment programming. And I wonder if that's to, you know, sports costs a lot of money. Let's try to sort of money the waters here and maybe we can pay them a little bit less. Yeah, I'm not sure what the decision is. And it's a tough decision because, I mean, you know, listen, Vince coined the term sports entertainment and they're both the words are both there, right? So what is wrestling? Is it sports entertainment? To me, it makes more sense under sports. But it's the same way we see Disney ESPN, excuse me, kind of struggle with how to cover wrestling because it's a competition, it's predetermined, it's a drama, it's, you know, it is athletic. I don't know. I don't know what the answer is. It strikes me that in the case of Warner Brothers Discovery. And again, this is not a shot at Kathleen. Her and I very much love HGTV together. I just don't see her as a wrestling fan. I don't even know if Luis is a wrestling fan. However, it seems like it's just synergistically, marketing wise, much more logically placed under a sports banner. And again, for all I know, Luis in his specific case or whomever at NBCU is as involved as the person who technically oversees it. It just, it felt weird to me, it feels weird to me when Kathleen is the one who is announcing AEW news and not the person who is, you know, announcing hockey and basketball news. Neither struck me as a power slap fan. Yeah, weirdly. That did not come up. I really am very surprised about that. No power slap this year. I'm sorry to disappoint everybody. Yeah, the second season is ongoing and it's happening under a rock somewhere by Rumble. And it is like the quietest second season I think anyone could imagine. But it's out there. And if you listen to Dana White, it's social reach is bigger than the NFL, major league baseball, everything combined. It's bigger power slap. So maybe they lost something huge there. When you look at Smackdown, you know, as you mentioned, I would say like Nick Con certainly was sort of turning up the temperature a little bit in his speech on Thursday and just seemed to be number one stating, listen, it's at minimum, we're getting a 1.5 X increase. Number two is that we are very flexible. We are not married to Friday nights. And I think by extension, we are not married to Fox. Like it's pretty much just putting it out there that we are, we are open for business on Friday nights. And I think most would look at Raw as probably not being as moveable when it comes to a home. But Smackdown is a very important piece on their chessboard. And I think they're willing to see how much power it has. Yeah, you know, it's funny. I walked away from Nick's keynote speech at Moff and Nathanson, trying to, you know, asking myself, and of course, knowing I was booked for your podcast, would I bet on Friday on Fox or would I bet on the field? You know, like how we used to bet, like, would you bet on Tiger Woods or the field back in his prime? And it was always a fun thought experiment because in the Tiger Woods situation, it's like, well, you've got 120 or whatever, other golfers or one guy, it's so tempting to take the field, except the problem is he was prime Tiger Woods, right? So I don't know what I would bet on currently with Smackdown because they seem so open to whatever. But that said, like, you know, we may be out of the exclusive window as Brandon said, it still strikes me that generally speaking, advantage always goes to the incumbent, to the person, to the network, and the night that has the programming. So could it end up Wednesdays on Amazon prime video? And I wouldn't be at all surprised? Yeah, absolutely. You know, because Nick, which basically, you know, he shouted out Amazon as somebody who's trying to program individual nights. And that's exactly what Smackdown gives you. It gives you that 52 weeks a year on a set night, on a set schedule, something that, you know, Netflix isn't very concerned about, for example. It's Smackdown was on Wednesdays. Our jobs are about to come very interesting. Yeah, I was going to say harder or better for you guys. Both. Yeah, but it's the... Brandon's ratings releases. He'll be knocking on the doors of Amazon for whatever data he can come by. He's going to need to hire security. Well we know Thursdays would be out, right? Because of football. We know Mondays would be out because wrestling's not going to go against wrestling. And like you said, USA, or excuse me, not USA, Raw seems a lot more immovable. At one point Nick Khan spoke about how Monday night football is, you know, on ESPN, is what they've done with that, with the Manning cast and so on and so forth. And I was waiting to see if he was basically saying, like, so you could kind of count Disney out on Raw because there's no way like we're going to have these competing product. He didn't go that far, but that's something, you know, I don't believe that Disney would be in the Raw business for that reason. So yeah, I don't know where you're going to go. You're going to go Tuesday or Wednesday or stay on Friday. Like, as an aside, like that part we were talking about Monday night football, I thought it was really interesting because it sounded to me like he was pitching, hey, NBC and probably during the football season is how I took what he was saying is that you should put Raw on as a simulcast on both USA Network and NBC broadcast and maybe there's even, you know, something on Sci-Fi or on Peacock is like a second screen experience. I think it's what you're talking about there. Yeah, I believe so too. But it was weird. The reason I didn't bring that up directly is because the thing he immediately said afterwards was that NBC doesn't program Monday nights and it's like, they've got the voice on Monday. Yeah. Yeah. It's the hours of the voice and they're using that to launch a new series this fall. So I don't totally understand what he was saying there. I don't know if he meant he was speaking only to scripted programming or something that couldn't theoretically move to another night, which there's no reason the voice or anything else couldn't. But I didn't... Or even Raw, like if we're throwing out options like is WWE married to Mondays for Raw? Like historically, yes, they have carved that out as their night. I just, I look at it for several factors especially as it relates to SmackDown. I think that there is a growing advantage of broadcast and when you're looking at the Amazon option, like the NFL is going to buck every trend. And even this week, it was a John Oren speaking about like the MLS deal with Apple and already sort of like, yeah, it's a huge dollar figure, but we're very much behind this paywall that not everyone is there yet. Do you want to be a SmackDown that's coming to an Amazon in 2024 or your next cycle when it's more available? And what reach are you losing by giving up a broadcast outlet? Well, when Nick spoke to that a little bit at Moff and Nathanson, and basically he was saying there are brands that still need to grow their awareness in America like MLS. And my takeaway is that he doesn't believe that WWE needs to grow. It's reached so much. If it's going to monetize, it's going to monetize through a right steel, not so much through like some sort of advertising split or whatever. So I didn't get the impression that Nick was all that concerned about like incrementally losing viewers, which would happen if you go to Amazon or to Apple. There's no doubt about that. But my guess is, and this is just a guess, like if they're getting $2 billion instead of $1 billion or even instead of $1.5 for the next five years, they might not care at all. I mean, first of all, they just sold, right? They're not even, they're publicly traded standalone company anymore. They still got regulatory. But you guys know what I mean. So it's a very different business environment for WWE in this right cycle than in the past one. And would they go to a giant like Amazon and collect the money and count their money and be happy with it and not necessarily grow their fan base? I think so. And with constellations, you'd still be on USA or something, I guess. Yeah. And you know, the thing is like look what they did with WWE Network. Like I'm not saying that they, listen, they theoretically added subscribers by being a part of Peacock instead of being a standalone 1.2 million or whatever. They had a subscriber base at WWE Network, but there are a small fish and a big pond, medium fish and a slightly bigger than medium pond at Peacock. So I think they're very willing to experiment, maybe even cut off their nose despite their face in some way. Yeah. I would not count Amazon out and I would not worry too much about the viewership or at least it sounds like they're not all that worried about the viewership. You know, look at what UFC did with the ESPN and ESPN Plus. And I mean, you know, guess who made that deal with the ESPN and Disney? Like, you know, WWE is in good hands and they, you know, they're their new parent company. You know, I guess it'll be called TKO, we could say like, they'll know what they're doing. I wouldn't be concerned about like diluting the brand or diluting the viewership too much. And so I would not, I would last cycle. I absolutely would have sworn off Amazon because I think football and Amazon is terrible. I think, you know, we all knew Friday night baseball was going to go behind a paywall. You had to be, you know, foolish to think it was going to stay free forever. So these absolutely fragmented and dilute the audience, but, you know, for a greater reason for these companies, at least in our mind. It's shipped over to a Wednesday and that was where the, the WBD upfront presentation was taking place. And I would say like within our bubble, that was the big day because of what would or would not be announced. And I mean, if you just sat down and watch this upfront presentation, I mean, this was kind of just carved out right at the end of this hour plus presentation that collision is coming on June the 17th by Kathleen Finch, who we mentioned there before. And this has been reported on for weeks at this point of this, this coming Saturday show. What were some of your expectations going into that presentation, Tony? And what role AEW have in terms of a WBD's presentation? Well, it's hopeful that it would have a larger presence than last year. I remember the previous year I caught a bunch of flack on Twitter because I was like, hey, there's like no mention of AEW. I think at one point on a long, week-long schedule, there's a five split and I think Wednesday night was one of the AEW women's champions at the time. And that was literally the entire mention and the entire upfront of AEW, which I felt was, you know, everyone assumes I'm an AEW hater. I actually thought it was a disservice to AEW, to be honest with you. I think it's a bigger deal than it is played out to be at. Too late. You tweeted something that could be conceived as negative. I know, if you can even believe it, it's on, you know, with all the level-headed fans out there. I, yeah, so this year I expected them to do better and they did better. Like, you know, there might have been a video clip here and there was an actual announcement. The letters AEW were actually said, which is cool, I suppose, and that's an upgrade. But you know, still not nearly, listen, AEW is not the NBA. I'm not foolish or crazy. They're never going to get the NBA level of play at these things. But there's still a gigantic disparity. And I bet you, if you held up the ratings of AEW versus, and again, I'm not saying the NBA, but it gets a lot of the TNT, TBS programming or some of the other platforms that- NHL even. Yeah, NHL, perfect example. You know, I think it probably deserves a little bit more respect at a conference like this, which is truly based on advertising and what an advertiser will get back from their investment. But listen, wrestling has still seen a silly to a lot of adults and so I do get it. I would have expected there to be more, but you know, as a fan of pro wrestling, I was pretty satisfied that it wasn't as lackluster as last year. And it probably also helped that while there was a lot of reporting on collision, it wasn't as maybe definitive as some of the stuff that myself and some others were able to report upon before the up front, which really did probably ruin some of Tony's plans, Khan's plans a little bit here and there. But yeah, listen, should it have been more? Yes, I think so. Does it deserve more? Yes, I think so. But is it incremental improvement over last year where it looked like they had no awareness of the programming that was even on their platforms? Yeah, we were expecting more because there were reports, at least one report ahead of the time that this was going to be a whole new TV deal. This was going to mean an extended deal, a renewed deal for Dynamite and Rampage. I was wondering if there was going to be some sort of max involvement, maybe the all-in UK show that they've announced, maybe something in terms of the library. Next day, where it's even on max. But all we know at this point is there's a new show. Yeah, correct. Yeah. Saturday Night Show, what is it, eight to 10, I believe it is. So you know, they're adding hours. That's cool. You know, they're adding to TNT specifically, which is good home for it. I don't know how I would feel about max. Frankly, I have to see max, which launches on Tuesday. I need to see that interface a little bit more first anyway. But it still seems like it's a good home for AW, TNT and TBS, feels about appropriate to where AW is right now. But yeah, to me, it's a sign of where everyone is in negotiations right now. And specifically, Warner Brothers Discovery is in such cost-cutting debt reduction mode. And the impression I get is that it's such a humongous beast, this Warner Brothers Discovery company that's about a year old at this point, that, you know, AEW, even if it does win Wednesday nights. It does perform on Saturday nights, which of course college football and stuff is going to come into play with that. It's still a relatively small part of Warner Brothers Discovery. So I don't know what it necessarily means for the future. Again, my guess is it stays. My guess is they get a really nice increase because they deserve it. And the last time was nothing more than an experiment. But yeah, it's not the NBA. David Zazlav, excuse me, is a huge Knicks fan. He's a big NBA fan. I don't quite know where he stands on hockey. But clearly, there are people out there that are very receptive to picking up these hockey rights. I do not get the impression with Max and with the NBA and with cost-cutting and debt reduction. I don't think AEW is in any way a big priority within Warner Brothers Discovery corporate. And I don't think it's a big priority to Kathleen personally. But I don't think that means it's going away. I just think it's back burner. Yeah. And I mean, if you're looking at some kind of like the optimist view is that when there is so much cost-cutting, you still need to program all these nights of the week. And if you're playing Moneyball with programming like AEW, it's a nice value when you're looking at the audience you're getting and even what the high end would be of an increase for them. Like you're not getting into the top tier sports. I mean, you would look at this as tier two and below and I think relative to what they're making now, it's not the largest investment in the world that gives a healthy increase. And it's going to deliver a satisfactory audience two nights of the three nights of the week when you include Rampage. Yeah, I'm with you on that. I mean, it's all about ROI or at least it should be, right? I mean, if you're not laying out WWE Money still, let alone NBA Money or whatever and you're getting a guaranteed win on Wednesday night, even if Saturday isn't huge, you know, Friday obviously didn't turn out to be huge or at least, you know, at fragments of the audience and SmackDown, you know, ends up on top, which we all would have expected. You're still winning one out of seven nights a week and Saturday barely counts. Friday barely counts. So yeah, I agree. I don't, I wouldn't understand why it would be going anywhere, but that said, there have been a lot of cuts at HBO Max that a lot of people don't understand why programs were cut. They don't understand why Westworld was sent to a fast channel. They don't understand why Batgirl is never going to see the light of day. So, you know, we're dealing with corporate accountants, you know, they know things much more intimately financially than we do. So to us from the outside looking in, yeah, I think dollar for rating, it is worth it. And I would keep them and I think they will ultimately. But again, some of these decisions that were made at Warner Brothers Discovery, like the famous one with Batgirl, which by the way, I heard it's terrible. So a lot of people probably weren't so sad to see it go, but it had Michael Keaton as Batman. There are arguments, really decent arguments on both sides of the ball for some of these programming cuts that they've made up to this point. And now they've announced that they're out of that, like cutting a nickel, cutting a dime here and there, mode and there in growth mode. So that bodes well for AEW. And so if they truly are, then, you know, AEW should expect a healthy increase and they should get one and they should stick around. And the last thing I'll say on it, well, to this question at least, is like, you know, Saturday nights, if you're going to announce a new show that's starting now, you would think you're not going to get rid of the flagship shows in six to 12 months or whatever the contract is up. That would be my guess. My cat has joined us. You know, so that's just, that's my thinking. You know, stick around, last minute deal, healthy increase, everybody's kind of happy, but not really. And Wednesday, much to John's dismay, was yet another opportunity to psycho analyze CM Punk. We made up 36 minutes into the show before CM Punk's name came up, which might be a record for any wrestling show. So he, I mean, I believe that he was a factor in AEW getting the Saturday night show and the notion that he would be a part of this show. He was, you can see it on, on WBD's website. I looked at the cached version and Jimmy Trano was pointing out that his name was in the headline title of the press release and then the later they removed it. All sorts of reports here that, you know, maybe there's another conflict or disagreement between Punk and AEW. Are you hearing anything to the, to the notion that WBD is annoyed or unhappy about the way that Wednesday went? I, I'm not necessarily in the world of reporting on the storyline stuff anymore. I used to do a little bit more of that when I was at the wrap. But I kind of focus on the business now. So I know I haven't, but don't read into that too much. It's just honestly wouldn't really come my way too much. But I will say like, listen, again, if we're talking about David Zazlev, and again, I'm not saying he's making any specific decision, but this, this, we're talking about executives that are at the height of the height, right? They don't necessarily, he knows, you know, players on the next, he knows Randall, but like does, does he know and get in metal in conflicts on the AEW roster? No, of course not. But on the flip side, when you're talking about executives that are only in a position to know your top three stars, I don't know where you guys personally stand on Punk. I don't really have that much of an opinion to be honest with you. I know every one of your listeners has a strong opinion one way or the other. That may be, it could be a deal breaker. And I'm not saying that because I have any reporting to back that up. I'm just saying like, I think he's huge for the launch of the show. I think it's a very different. One of the three people in AEW that the mainstream fan, let alone the mainstream executive knows as far as the better it was. Give us a maker. I think he's number one by a wide margin. Well, think about what Punk meant to the Friday show and what those ratings were initially with his presence with his. So you know, I would read more into the URL, frankly, Brandon, you and I, you know, we all know how reporting works and how you pre write stuff. And I don't know why that would have changed. But to me, that's, that's, I didn't know that. And hearing that, that makes me think that there's definitely either involvement that is not ready to be revealed or there was involvement that is no longer there. Yeah. Yes. The ongoing, the saga of CM Punk. Well, I mean, it's, it was interesting enough. And I don't know if you saw a dynamite on Wednesday, Tony, but they did roll out like the first six locations for collision and the very first episode, which was rumored for the United Center was just location to be announced and they will have an announcement next week. So it seems like it is trying to do patchwork here to make sure because you announced Chicago for that first show, it's going to lead everyone to the assumption that CM Punk is on that show and you want to guarantee that if you're going to Chicago, you have the person most closely associated with that city. So it would seem like they're, they're very much in, you know, putting this relationship back together if, if it needs to be, but obviously a lot of question marks coming out of Wednesday. Yeah, you're just three days out here too from that date. I was going to say, John, you're in no way suggesting that there's some drama surrounding CM Punk and his involvement. I might be indicating totally out of character. Yeah. No, I would look into it. Like I said, exactly how you look into it, but I'm also kind of thinking in circles here. It could be either of those things that could either be, we want to announce Chicago and let everybody run to that conclusion or have Punk come out and announce Chicago as his return or we were going to do a Chicago, we were going to do it with Punk and, oh, no, now what. So it could be any of those things, but you guys know the episodic antics of AEW a lot more intimately than I do. If your business earns millions or tens of millions in revenue, stop what you're doing and take a listen. His NetSuite by Oracle has just rolled out the best offer we've ever seen. NetSuite gives you the visibility and control you need to make better decisions faster. And for the first time in NetSuite's 22 years as the number one cloud financial system, you can defer payments of a full NetSuite implementation for six months. That's no payment and no interest for six months. 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My last question, you've been very generous here with your time, Tony, is just on the streaming front with, of course, HBO Max is rebranding coming up this Tuesday. And when you look at a WWE's deal with Peacock, which Nick Khan seems to think that they are due for a gigantic increase when that deal is up at the end of its five-year cycle, do you feel that AEW is poised to do a lot more than its five-paper views per year and that is the next big fish for them to catch is a massive streaming deal. Can they be in that league that WWE has found an exceptionally strong deal with Peacock? Well, it's tricky because AEW is still just four years old or so. I mean, they have a big roster. They have a lot of shows that are massing a lot of hours, but they're still really young in this. WWE's been doing this forever. I mean, we remember actual pay-per-views. Nick won't say the term pay-per-view anymore. We remember those individual buys. I remember when it was four, and then it somehow became a lot more, and now it's 12, and maybe even more. I can't even keep track with the Saudi shows and everything like that, whether they take an actual premium event, let's call it slot or not. But I think what was really interesting about what Nick was talking about with Peacock, because absolutely you're a thousand percent right, basically, was like, this is the most undervalued deal in all of media. He didn't even say streaming. So if they're staying on Peacock, they're expecting a heck of a lot more money. There's no doubt about that. But what makes them valuable to Peacock as much as I don't necessarily love it, because I can't really keep up with the pay-per-views anymore, you know, well on the weekly shows, is doing 12. So if you do 12, let's call them premium live events, pay-per-views, a year, then streaming really makes sense, because that is how you become churn-proof. And the whole goal in streaming is being churn-proof, which means you don't lose consumers. There are people who tune in, who subscribe to, all right, I'll give you a personal example. My wife loves Outlander, right? She's going to subscribe to Stars when Outlander comes back, and then I'm going to make her cancel Stars. One's Outlander is over, because Stars is nothing else that we watch. So that's a Stars problem, and a lot of streamers or even cable networks have that problem. But when you have die-hard wrestling fans, or die-hard MMA fans, and they know that every single month, which is every billing cycle, it's not a coincidence, every single billing cycle, they have a premium live event, a pay-per-view, that they're getting, that is, you know, in the case of Peacock, $5, $6 a month, whatever it is to get their lower tier right now, you're saving a heck of a lot more money than in the old days when you would buy, you know, per event. So if AEW can scale up to the point where they can do a dozen events a year, now I would not recommend they rush to that. But if they can do that, either for this cycle, which seems way too ambitious, or more likely next cycle, that's when you become a really valuable partner to streaming, because they want X number of millions of subscribers that will not cancel when their favorite show is over. And there are only a couple ways to achieve that. One of them is like Netflix, where you just have an unbelievable library that never stops, and you don't give anybody your reason to cancel after Stranger Things. And two is you just have a recurring, you know, a recurring content like sports, like wrestling, or like football, or like soccer, or like baseball, especially the ones out of the longer schedules that will keep loyal fans there, because there will just never be a time that seems appropriate for you to churn out of their environment. So I don't know where WWE will end up. It seems like if they don't stay at Peacock, that was a weird short-lived partnership that we all switched over to and adopted. But you know, listen, Comcast, which owns Peacock or NBCUniversal, which owns Peacock, has an enormous amount of money. But Peacock does not have an enormous amount of paid subscribers. So there is definitely a ceiling for where that next deal will go. Are they owed more money, probably? So yeah, so AW, to see AW do something similar, whether it's on Macs or somewhere else where, I do think as you were kind of alluding to that, they need to scale up to doing monthly pay per view events, something that will keep, whether their fan base is small and mighty, or becomes larger and larger, that will keep them glued and in the landscape and the environment of whatever streamer probably Macs, it ended up being. Well, everyone, I want you to all go over to Tony Magleo on Twitter and represent the wrestling audience and tell them what great analysis he has provided us here for 45 minutes. A buck the trend of the usual online discourse that some wrestling fans have become infamous for. But Tony, it's been a great to chat with you. I know it's been a very busy week for you, but thanks for carving out some time for us. This was a great discussion. Yeah, you guys, I always appreciate it. It's my pleasure. And let me leave you, John. I want to bring something to the table here. So I will tell you that per box office mojo, I will give them credit. Cino Evil, $50 million domestic, 18.7 million worldwide on a reported budget of $8 million. But you got to maybe double that for marketing. So Cino Evil, maybe not a big smash hit. It turns out it was more like no one saw this movie. It was a working title that it had. No movie. Yes, which I was once told by a WWE writer at the time that Vince McMahon got this script and went through it. And his big issue that he had was he had an idea that he wanted the character of Glenn Jacobs to have an enormous penis in this movie. That was his those were his notes. Okay. That is the man. I do at this merged TKO company and those were his notes in 2005 sex when this movie was being written. So I know I'm going to read on the wrestling news aggregators this afternoon then. Listen, it was when I had this writer on, it was aggregation heaven for people when they heard this. So anyway, there's your takeaway from this one. But Tony, thanks so much for joining us. Follow all of his fine work at a indie wire. And I'm sure we will do this again sometime. Thank you. My pleasure. Thanks, boy. Thank you, Tony. I'm going to be up front and in living color, Tony Magdalene with us as we came out of not just the up front this week, but also as we mentioned the Nick Con conference or we can call it the Nick Con conference, but appearing at the Nathan, Nathan, Moffat conference. Moffat Nathan, Moffat Nathan, my goodness. And no space in there either. I mean, they ran these words together. Buddy Russell, mania. Yeah, this was it's always the fun part of listening to Nick Con and then dissecting what he means by a lot. But as Tony mentioned, like it was certainly a speech where you got the sense that this was Nick Con knows his audience and he knows who is going to hear these comments. And this was you and me. I thought kind of a hey, we're holding an open house for our rights and we are happy to hear from all interested parties. Yeah, there was some news. He mentioned that there's going to be a show in India in September. He and fans on Twitter are very excited about that. That'll be the first show live there since 2017 since the Ginger Mahal experiment. Which was not a I mean, that was one whereas as I recall, they had booked two nights and then canceled one of them and then had as I recall, Triple H beating Ginger Mahal in India. Yes. And I think he dropped the title just before then maybe that's right. They got the title off of him in time to go to India. It was a very puzzling booking and execution of their trip to India. But they, you know, that was the hope of what they were going to do with that superstar spectacle that aired in that was early 2021 that they aired that which ended up being filmed at the performance center and or the Thunderdome, whatever it was at that point. But going to India itself, you would the natural follow up to be with, you know, some kind of fee that they are getting for going to India. Yeah. I mean, we'll see how big of an event it is. I mean, India, the economy is not what it is in the United States or the UK in terms of the ticket prices that they'll be able to charge. If it's a stadium event, I mean, maybe there's a subsidy involved. But I think if there's not a subsidy involved, it's still worth it to go there because you have a really strong audience there. So your number two TV market and those TV rights are next after the US, which is something that he mentions that after and that's what it was in the last cycle too. It's the US deals are done. It's on to UK and on to India as well. And Canada, not too far off either, which is up next year. The 10 year deal is finally ending. Yeah, which I don't know what the value of that deal was, but whatever it was, I'm sure Rogers got hit for a tremendous amount in 2014 for raw SmackDown, main event, NXT. I mean, everything was in that deal. I modeled it at like seven, seven, seven, seven to $10 million a year, something like that. Yeah. Interesting to see the international front that is up next for them. Anything else noteworthy when you were listening to Nikon's address that jumped out at you? A lot. Jeff Shell being out at NBCU, not a big deal. They've been in touch with Michael Kavanaugh, who's the Comcast CEO who's taking over his duties. There was some talk about an Australia show, which is something we've seen. There's been local Australia media that's been reporting on the idea that W executives have gone to Australia to discuss a possible PLE with a government subsidy in Australia. He alluded to that, so basically confirmed that that is happening. The stuff that we talked about with Tony Maglio already in terms of the Peacock deal, he all but confirmed on the record there that he referred to the Wall Street Journal reporting back in 2021 when the Peac deal was made, that it is a $1 billion deal over five years. He didn't say that that's true, but he brought it up and didn't dispute it and brought it up to mention how undervalued they are. That's something that they may be able to negotiate because that deals as an expider until March of 2026, which will expire around the same time as UFC writes with ESPN do. By that time, TKO Group will presumably be a merged company and they'll be able to possibly deal UFC and WWE writes together for some sort of streaming deal, which may or may not result in a pay-per-view becoming a pay-per-view again. Yeah, and he seemed to be pretty forthright in the sense that this merger is not completed yet. They still have to go through all of the regulations and that these negotiations, like there is no involvement from the endeavor side with these negotiations. They are essentially two separate sides as they wait for this pending merger to go through, but to your point, once the Peacock negotiations are underway, it certainly, this will be one merged company providing there is not some giant hiccup to get to this finalized deal, but it would seem like it is Vincent Nikon leading the charge for these negotiations. Yeah, he was willing even to say a factor, 1.5x. Of course, he is positioning that as underpromised, will deliver. Yeah. He was willing to say maybe it'll be 1.5x, maybe it'll be greater than 1.5x. So certainly- This guy should shoot for three. Guaranteed. We'll see. But certainly something under 1.5x will be a disappointment. I think 1.5x is at a minimum what's baked into the stock. So yeah, it's definitely going to be an upgrade and if it's not, I'll be shocked. Did he tell the host that if he doesn't get 1.5x, that you can suplex me? Or what was the line that Vincent Mankin's face is? I feel at least double our rights. You can put me to Harrelock. They did double my kicky on benchmark. Yeah. My kicky has not redeemed his hammerlock yet as of about a year ago, I believe. Before we wrap up, we talked to you on Wednesday night after the announcement of Collision. And since then, there has been a lot of reporting of the fallout of one, Phil Brooks, CM Punk. What are your thoughts? 48 hours removed of where Collision sits and how- I know this is certainly a huge amount of leverage that you have if you're CM Punk and pretty much the launch of this show is on your back at this point and not having CM Punk in your mix. Like, I would think you ultimately have to poke a whole new building a month from now. Yeah, right. I've almost loved me to go to Daley's but if they're not going to go to United Center, I'm a dangerous thing. I cannot help myself but on yesterday, Thursday, to listen to the Nikon talk and to hear him speak. I would agree impressively about strategy and be kind of forthright in a way that we're not used to hearing executives or wrestling executives before the right to contrast it against the many issues that are surrounding AW here with CM Punk and whether or not he has issues or there's some disagreement with AW over A steel being a producer or whatever it is. I guess I think the situation with AW is it sort of speaks to, again, a lack of control of that AW has over its biggest star which, yes, on one hand is not unlike previous eras of wrestling where like, Burser Brody would like come to some conflict with a promoter and then walk out through the crowd to make sure that everybody knew that he was there and he walks out. This is not something that we've seen in the last century or so where one wrestler has so much power over a promotion and that's in part because AW is a much more nascent company than WWE certainly. I find myself looking at these dynamics, Brandon, that here we are and we frequently talk about the lack of power that performers have in this industry. They are not representative. They typically have very little leverage and we look at somebody in a punk that I don't outright villainize in a situation like this. You try and look at it from as many angles as you can and try and just call balls and strikes with it but here is somebody that is in an industry where often it is just the promoter makes the call and you fall in line and follow that promoter and this is somebody that understands his power, is using his power but it is sort of the balance of what is detrimental to a company, detrimental to a locker room. There's a lot of dynamics at play and this is an industry that at its core it is the individual that is looking out for himself rather than necessarily the entire health of a company that let's be honest, AW will get through this. They have this TV deal now with collision and it's someone that understands his power and is ultimately using it. And on the subject of the TV deal, they have a new show. I assume that there's got to be a lot of money incrementally because of that show. I said on Wednesday, $26 million something in that neighborhood to do this show so the additional compensation is probably something above that. But no renewal as far as anybody has reported has happened for Rampage and Dynamite or anything concerning max on streaming or whatever and it was reported on the Wednesday before this past Wednesday that there was going to be a whole new TV deal. I went back and checked what was out there and that's not the case and I wonder if, wonder why AW did not make sure that the media knew that, I assume that that hasn't happened, and why not make sure the media know that, okay this isn't a real renewal. It's AW collision is happening and that's an additional thing but this is not a whole full blown billion dollar five year deal, at least not as far as anybody's reporting here. It's to me a larger issue of when you will hear Tony Khan at some times, you will hear him publicly talk about, man I see stuff reported in pro wrestling that I just, I would never imagine would ever get reported in other sports and all these like wild things that will get out there. At the same time, if you're someone that like what is your confidence level brand and that if you are to go to a Tony Khan in state is this true, you're not even going to get a no comment out of him. I mean he can squash a lot of, you know, if he sees a story that is not accurate, he can stomp it out immediately before he gains life. But there is last week I asked, I asked a couple of people who would know and I got no response. Silence is seems to be like the most frequent method when it comes, and I'm not to say WWE is all that different when it comes to a lot of these stories. But I think that it's very difficult for you then get upset about, you know, stories that might take on a life of their own when you're not even willing to refute that like that is not accurate and you can come up with all the reasons you want of why you're not going to speak publicly about something but that's sort of like you are in that role. And I think like there is some obligation if you are going to complain then about, you know, stories that get out there and it doesn't have to be like, yes, we are confirming this is a new TV deal and this is how much this is worth. But if something is inaccurate and it's going to set expectations out there, like there is a way for a company to control that message. And also to the credit of P2B Insider and Fightful, all they had reported was that there was going to be a collision show that meant probably more money. Yes. So that and that is all we know as about is the collision show and all eyes are now on next Wednesday and what is or is not announced. Maybe Taylor's place, maybe. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what the like if the United Center is booked. I mean, I don't even know what the process of like maybe canceling something of that size. I haven't listened to it, but Rafa, Rafa, Oh, Morphe, who might not be a name everyone knows, but he is the, I think, executive president of live events, something of that nature. He is on Jericho's podcast today. It's probably a really interesting listen, I don't know if he's ever done an interview, but this is the guy that is booking all of the venues for AEW and is, you know, pretty significant when it comes to the entire touring landscape has worked very prominently in the same field with WWE in the past. So probably an interesting listen that I'm planning to check out at some point. Yeah, I know about that. I'll check that out. So that's going to bring an end to Paula Kintherston. We've been on a great run here of guests and we will be continuing next week to be determined. I guess next week's guest yet. I've thrown out the idea towards you, but I'm always worried about like, what news is going to drop next? We want to make these as timely as possible, but I'm very confident we will have a show next week as we will tonight because myself and waiting will be live at 10 Eastern for members at postdresslingcafe.com. We will have rewind a Smackdown. We will go over whatever other news is going on today. Also up at post wrestling.com later today, I'm going to be putting out a story on superstar Billy Graham that I have been putting together today. I've got to finish this thing today, but hopefully I will have that out on Friday. And then everyone can look towards Sunday 11 a.m. Eastern. It is WrestleNomics Radio with Brandon and company and man, I don't know what the rundown is going to look like come Sunday. You have a ton to discuss. Yes, it'll be more of this. We'll probably go into more depth on Nikon and more discussion on AEW and perhaps even CM Punk. Oh, I hope so. Yeah. With the addition of collision, I was tweeting earlier. I don't know what colors are left for the line chart. And I was wondering in your case, have you in way decided, are you going to cover another show with like a post show every week? So we have had the discussions. And I think the current plan is right now that we will be way and I are going to do the first show and we will be then revealing. That'll be a big deal. Yeah. We will be revealing that the co-host moving forward. It is not going to be way and I because the two of us, our wives would kill us if we said we are giving up another night of the week to talk about wrestling. So that is not going to be happening on a routine basis. I think we will do the first show on the 17th, but we're running out of free nights at this point. Okay. But we knew it would be a big announcement in the future. Are you aware that between WWE and AEW, we now have, and I'm not even including Ring of Honor, that is 12 hours of original programming on broadcast and cable weekly. Yes. Between just those two. No impact, no Ring of Honor, no women of wrestling. New Japan. A 10 on access. MLW, maybe. Do you count that? They're not on reels anymore. Me has some W content you can watch right now every Sunday night. Pills. Have you been watching Steve Austin travel through America? No, I have not. I've been watching the ratings though. Yes. I saw a YouTube clip popped up today of Steve Austin sits down with a mentalist and I said, you know what, this is definitely outside of my interest level of a Steve Austin segment. But I imagine that there are people that are following all of this stuff. And you should be following patreon.com slash WrestleNomics. Go follow all of Brandon's late breaking news, some great news updates to accompany the ratings breakdown. Yes. A quieter day on Fridays because I don't know if people are banging at your door for impact numbers. But we do have Trinity's debut this week. We will see if that could impact hit the 120,000 viewer threshold with Trinity's debut. That is the big question to ask everyone today. But you can follow all of that. Check out WrestleNomics. Again, we want to smack down tonight at 10 Eastern. So that's going to wrap it up. Thanks to everybody for joining us live and we will speak with you next week. Finding great candidates to hire can be like, well, trying to find a needle in a haystack. Sure, you can post your job to some job board. But then all you can do is hope the right person comes along, which is why you should try ZipRecruiter for free at zipprecruiter.com slash post. ZipRecruiter doesn't depend on candidates finding you. It finds them for you. It's powerful technology identifies people with the right experience and actively invites them to apply to your job. You get qualified candidates fast. So while other companies might deliver a lot of hay, ZipRecruiter finds you what you're looking for, the needle in the haystack. See why four out of five employers who post the job on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire. And right now, you can try ZipRecruiter for free. That's right, free at zipprecruiter.com slash post. 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