Dave Meltzer on AEW Collision, Forbidden Door | Pollock & Thurston

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Someone who will not be in Toronto this weekend, but he will be all over the coverage of Forbidden Door and the follow-up to Collision, which is happening in Toronto. We welcome in the editor of the Wrestling Observer Newsletter, Dave Meltzer. Dave, how are you doing today? Thanks for joining us. I'm doing pretty good. How are you guys? We're doing very well here, me. As I would think that 8W is today, with the Collision number coming out, and we want to jump into that right away with you and get some of your immediate reactions to the number. 800 and 16,000 viewers on Saturday on TNT, a .33 in the demo, 430,000 viewers that translates to. They were behind the College World Series that was happening, as well as the UFC Fight Night, the main card. I would say that overall, .33, what's your reaction to that number? The UFC main card was after they were over, so they didn't even go, I mean, they beat the prelims by a significant amount. They beat the prelims by a lot. So they beat UFC by a lot, but they should have beaten the prelims. My reaction to the number was going to be pretty much the same no matter what it was, because it really matters. To me, what matters is where you are in a month. I would consider it, it's a good number. It's a good number. If you can keep it at, I mean, my feeling is if you can keep it at 0.25, 0.26, on a consistent basis, it's a big hit considering what Saturday night competition is, and Saturday is harder to draw than other nights of the week and everything. But, you know, I mean, we've seen this with so many shows. The premiere, there was a lot, a lot of hype for the show. It's Punk's first time back. It's the debut of the show. It was heavily hyped. So, I mean, I expected a really good number, and so, you know, I mean, they should be happy with it, and encouraged that it was a younger audience than, you know, they've been getting for the Friday show. And, you know, I mean, compared to the Friday show, of course, it's big, but it's was hyped so much bigger. So, yeah, good first week, but, you know, Did they make it harder for themselves, Dave, in the sense that tonight, you know, nothing for show number two and that follow-up. And tonight, you would think a lot of it should be all about Sunday, and they have to balance both to retain this audience for Saturday, or at least a strong percentage of it, while also pushing this pay-per-view on Sunday. And I think that that was a missed opportunity Saturday, of not at least, you know, whatever the punk segment is on Saturday, or making it clear punk is here on Saturday night. And tonight, obviously, you have to make that push for this, both back-to-back nights this weekend. Yeah, and Rampage will get like almost no push, probably, because, you know, you've got, you know, I mean, the pay-per-view should be the number one focus, but yes, you've got to tell people that, and you've got to have some big stuff, and you probably should do some sort of match that has an angle that pertains to the pay-per-view to tell you, hey, you've got to watch this, you know, and, you know, maybe a contender's match or something, the winner gets something, I don't know, you know, but something, something should be done on Saturday that pertains to the Sunday card. So, but also, you know, like, yeah, like Saturday's show this week can really, really, heavily hype Sunday, because it's the next day, hey, but you can't ignore that on Wednesday, because, you know, Wednesday, more likely than not, the audience tonight will be a little bit bigger than Saturday, maybe not this week's still. I think in the long run, the Wednesday audience will probably be the stronger audience of the two, but, you know, who knows? You know, um, night show. But, yeah, there's a point to advertise for tonight, by the way, because I haven't seen that. No, not yet. Yeah, I haven't seen it advertised, but that's the scuttle blood. Okay, I mean, I've heard, I've only just, can say, I've heard from several wrestlers that he's on the show, so they certainly believe that he's on the show. And, um, you know, so that's, um, you know, I mean, he should be hyped then, you know, I mean, I wouldn't throw him out there as a surprise, but, you know, because he, he should help ratings first time on a Wednesday. Yeah, and if I'm seeing what's behind you, David, I think you see the show was daily chart in the background, which is very appropriate. I guess it is, doesn't it? Yeah, so I, this was higher than I was expecting. And I mean, I totally agree with you that what really matters is what this show is averaging months from now, because that's what's really going to, that's what's really going to come into play when WBDSS is what's the value of this extra two hours that, that we're booking here. But it was high, yeah, I put out a poll a few days ago and like over a thousand people voted for what it's worth. And everybody, the majority of people were guessing something under 3.30 for the demo. And it did a 0.33. I mean, it's better than I thought it would be. I mean, I figured it would do about what a dynamite does. So this is a little bit better than, in the demo, at least, it's a little bit better than what dynamite has done. I believe it's going back to March. You have to go back to March to find a 3.3 for dynamite. Yeah, it's the high end. I mean, dynamite's usually been, you know, I mean, dynamite's been pretty consistent between 28 and 33, you know, it's been the range. So it's the high end. But this was higher, more than average, by far, more than average episode dynamite and punks return should have drawn. Well, I saw, I actually saw that poll that you did. And it reminded me because when I do similar stuff on pay-per-views, I would say 95% guess low. And usually very low. You know, it's one of those things where I think, I think people, I don't know, you know, I mean, whatever it is, I think that they expect, they just expect worse. You know, they just think, this isn't doing well. They're being told by people, this isn't doing well. And then it does well. And it's like after, you know, like, like after a couple of pay-per-views in a row that are all pre-consistent when you think, when people tell you this build's been terrible, it's awful. And then the number comes up the same. You go like, hey, maybe this is just the number that they're going to be doing, you know, and maybe the build isn't as bad as you think we, we may be, you know, I mean, at the end of the day, you know, sometimes, I mean, basically, you have to learn from this stuff. And AW is, it's pretty, you know, they have a pretty consistent audience. And we don't know what that number is on Saturday. But I mean, like, I expected a big number. I mean, I, like, punk's first return, I felt, I felt a lot. I saw the fact that they were, in the Google charge, they were the 10th most searched thing. And a regular television show never is, you know, when it comes to wrestling, UFC wasn't in the top 20. And so I thought, hey, you know, this is probably going to do pretty good. But it, you know, again, if it did a million viewers and everybody be doing cartwheels, I would say the same thing, you know, I mean, look, the first episode of SmackDown was almost four million viewers. It was not indicative of anything. And I guess I think that, like, whatever it, if it's higher, that's, that's low. It's not going to fall as far, you know, if this opened up and did, you know, 600,000 viewers or something like that, that would be concerning. It's going to fall by a similar percentage, I feel like, you know, almost no matter where it starts. But for this, this episode, there's a lot of younger viewership. Yeah, it's not in my report, but this is a 45, meaning age viewer was 45 for this episode. Which is, which is much lower than, than, than, than almost any A, A, W, T, W show all year, right? Dynamite was 50 last, last Wednesday. Yeah, there's some comparison there, yeah. Right, right. As we're looking ahead to this Sunday, Dave, what, what would your read be if we are in a position where this pay-per-view, there's a CM Punk and the Young Box, you would think in a normal world, these are both assets on your pay-per-view. Yes. Would you expect both of them on this pay-per-view on Sunday? Because now we're getting into, like, this situation where you're potentially leaving money on the table, especially if you are figuring, like, a punk, is that what, a 20% jump and buys if he is on this show on Sunday? If he is, if he is, he's got to be on the show. If you're going to figure Punk's worth 20%, then he needs to be on the show and they need to, and it needs to be in a big match. But Omega's on the show anyway. We already know that. So there's no, you know, there's no reason for the Bucks not to be on the show. You're not accomplishing anything by doing that because Omega's already on the show. So as far as that decision-making process goes, look, they all should be on the show. And, you know, and eventually again, it's like, are you really going to do Wembley with, without Omega and the Young Bucks? I mean, that's ridiculous. Are you going to do it without Punk? That's ridiculous, too. So, yeah, you know, you can keep the Young Bucks and Kenny off tonight's show and have Punk on. And it makes all the sense in the world. If, you know, if I am, you know, there's a lot of things that I would do completely different here and I certainly wish, you know, that this thing had been settled, you know, on whatever September 4th, you know, as opposed to, probably, who knows when, if ever it would be settled. But, you know, whatever, the decision is to keep the point, but you can't. But I mean, as far as for tonight, yeah, they made the right call to put Punk on in Chicago and have the other guys in a pre-tape. But they're not on collision. I mean, they're not on, yeah, the Young Bucks and Omega are not on collision live. They may do a pre-tape there. But, you know, it's like, at some point, you just gotta go, look, they're all top guys and it just feels, I mean, I know there were people like, that, you know, again, with Punk being on the show tonight, you know, one of the, one of the, one of the top guys was just like, you know, we were, you know, told that we would not have to deal with Punk except for on pay-per-views. And it's like, but here he is week one. It's not like, it's not like it's a surprise or anything. It's just, you know, these ideas change or what people are told change and people are kind of like, this is the company, it's a new company. That's all there is, you know, that's how people viewed it's a new company, you know, as far as business wise, what that means, we'll find out. And as far as morale wise, you know, it's, you know, it depends on how Punk is, you know, Punk needs to be magnanimous with everyone and I think he will probably try, at least with most. But, you know, there's, you know, it's, there's a lot of divisiveness that, you know, it's so frustrating to me because I see it so closely and I feel it shouldn't be there and, you know, it's worse now than it's been, you know, I mean, it hasn't gotten better now. Right now it's, it's at a pretty bad point again. Is that since the promo on Friday and the promo on Thursdays? Since the promo has made things worse in Europe. Well, the promo in the ESPN story. Yeah, yeah, yeah, those, you know, ever, I mean, you know, nobody was really like, okay, it's whatever. And then the ESPN story, which, you know, I mean, it was the talk of the locker room on Wednesday and, you know, which led to a lot of issues. And then the promo, they were expecting, I mean, most people read it and expecting it to be controversial and it was not that controversial. I thought, right, I am of the impression that people were expecting worse than it turned out to be. But you still have people who are, the people who really like Adam Page were not happy, you know, and I think there's this feeling of, you know, everyone there is pretty much told, like keep the stuff on the inside, on the inside, that if it gets out, it's not good for the company. And then the feeling is, is that one side is agreeing to do that and the other side is not. But the thing is, is that on both sides, they think it's the other side. So it becomes like a really weird thing, but it's like, what side is which there? Well, you know, I mean, I know, you know, I mean, the one side is more public because I mean, you know, punk's the one who said this up publicly. But I mean, the thing was when it comes to the ESPN story is that there's a lot of people who, you know, felt that Page should not have, you know, he shouldn't have gone after Page. Even if, even if privately he believed it, this wasn't the time to do it. And Page, you know, is not someone who's going to answer back. So he becomes, you know, the bad guy, because he can't, I mean, he could, but he doesn't want to be. I mean, if you notice from the, from day one, Page has never said a word about anything. You know, and he's a focal point of the story. And the reason is, is because, you know, he feels the best thing is to not say anything. And by doing that, I think that, you know, people have looked at him, oh, did he really, you know, whatever or that, that, you know, it's just, it's become a tough thing. And it makes it, it makes it a tough work environment. When, when, when side will go after the other and the other side is not saying anything, which has to frustrate them because they can't say anything or they feel it's best not to. And then now they're the victims. And, you know, it's, it's just a tough situation. But yes, Saturday people, you know, it was like one of those things of, both sides were told as far as the young bucks. I mean, like, there was the feeling that he went after Page because he's friends with the young bucks, and he'd signed a thing where he couldn't go after the young bucks. And then on Saturday, on collision, there's the line, you know, and you can take it a million ways. And it's ambiguous and all that. But if you are looking at it going like, well, he's not supposed to when he did, then you could say that. And if you just go, that's just a line and who cares? You can look at it that way. There's two ways of looking at that. I mean, I, I mean, when I heard the line, my, my thought was is, I love the counterfeit bucks. The counterfeit bucks. But when I, when I heard the line, you know, I'm one go fill, it's like, okay, is he acknowledging? Does he know something that you and I don't know about? Does he confirm the TV deal? It's what we want to know. David asked Phil about this before they put that in the losses. Yeah. Yeah, but I know really, you know, but yeah, it's like, it's like, is this story true? Or is he just, you know, making something up like, like, you know, taking this story that, that, you know, you and I have not been able to confirm as far as I know, you know, and I've heard the rumors, you know, for whatever, for weeks and weeks and weeks and, and, you know, all that, about this, the $1 billion deal. And he's out there essentially saying this. And on their TV, when Tony, you know, is like, we can't talk about the television contract. We can't talk about it. We can't talk about it. And here he is saying this to put himself over. And it's like, is this a true story? Or is he just, you know, I mean, and I don't know the answer. In the logic of like, how much I find WBD and I'm going to pay a lot of money for this, these series of TV shows, I can't imagine committing to a number before knowing what collision does on average, you know. I agree with you clearly. Yeah, yeah. You're buying an empty box. What's, what is this show going to do? Right. Like if it's going to do a 0.17 or a 0.26, you know, in television, that's a giant difference, especially going forward. So yeah, if, yeah, as far as like committing to a number, I mean, you've got to know what the value of the show is. So it's like, my gut, you know, not knowing anything is that from their standpoint, they'll probably, you know, it'll be something for a year from now or whatever. Yeah, year from now is probably, or 10 months from now is where you're really going to get into that stuff. So any number, you know, unless they've already agreed to something or keeping it quiet, it feels like any number would be something that would be determined based on more than anything collision. Because I think we know, I think that Dynamite's pretty consistent where it is. And I don't know that it's, could it drop a little bit because there's two shows possibly? Possibly. And Rampage too, I think, you know. Rampage I think is going to get killed. But you know, I don't anticipate it building from where it is. Because it can't, if you only have so many hours, and Rampage is very clearly going to be the C show. So, and not even like, again, on Wednesday nights, we saw it last week on Wednesday. They barely promoted Rampage, which is funny, because the number was higher than it's been. But I mean, it was barely touched on. It's like you, you know, you didn't have any height for that weird mixed match. You, they kind of mentioned if the end will Osprey would be on the show, but not even talking about the match. I didn't even, you know, from watching TV, I wouldn't have even known that there's a tachecha to Bandito match. Not that that's a big marketable match, but it's a match on paper that's a great match. So, as far as like where AW gets valued in the next round, I could see, and I guess just for background, you know, we, I think we both asked Tony and press conferences, whether there's a new deal or whether, even basically he said that it's just an extension. It's just the, there's extra money, but it's the same term. So, this is still a deal that's ending either this year or next year, it sounds like options are probably going to happen, and that's going to mean it's going to end at the end of 2024. September, end of September. So, is it September, okay? Yeah, yeah, yeah, the deal's in September, yeah. So, and I think, you know, a billion dollars that would supposedly be over to four or five years. Anyway, it comes out to about $200 million, average annual value, and that does, especially if we're talking two hours of dynamite, one hour of rampage, two hours of collision, total of five hours weekly, and it's a collision, I mean, it ranked number three among cable originals on Saturday. If it continues to do fairly well, I'm sure it's not going to do in the, I'm sure it's not going to do like in number three or maybe not even in the top five, but maybe it stays in the top 10, and if not, it might continue to perform as well as it has been roughly. I could see this being $200, average annual value. If you compare it to, like just where Smackdown is right now, just with its two hours, then yes, it's got about double the viewership. But that's about $205 million, average annual value. So, I could see, it's not unrealistic in other words. No, no, no, not at all, not at all. You know, if you compare it to, yeah, yeah. I mean, and there's other things too. I mean, there's the pay-per-view. And there's next day rights to play with here, and maybe something happens. We have pay-per-view even. Yeah, yeah, you know, like could you do the pay-per-view deal because the way the WWE does, and those pay-per-views are worth something, you know, considerable, you could, you know, you can always do streaming specials. I don't know that you really need them when you've got three TV shows a week, but you know, again, maybe too, you know. So, you're still going to do battle levels, too. I saw, yeah, I know, I know. I don't know what the, you know, again, it's whatever it's. But, you know, I mean, again, there are numbers. I mean, like the number for this, I mean, they were doing between 0.11 and 0.14 Saturday nights with whatever they were putting on in that time slot. So, even if we figure a normal fall, they're going to be way above what the station was doing. So, on Wednesday night, they're beating what the station's going to do with Big Bang Theory. On, you know, on Saturday, they're beating what they would probably do with movies on Friday. I don't know, you know, Fridays, there's some weeks where they're probably not doing much better, but most weeks, I think they're doing a little better. So, they're above what the station's doing. So, they have a, you know, they have a value there. Three shows a week, you know. Look, the thing is, if they do 175, 200 million, the key to all that is, it's, it becomes, the company becomes a giant success financially for Tony, Tony's investment in the long run pays off. Tony's commitment pays off. And, you know, all the people who were expecting him to go belly up are wrong, because they won't go belly up with a deal at that level. And, you know, unless you see this as sort of, CM Punk's swan song is this being like a last run, you get this company, this transformative deal, like he's 44 at this point, he's gone through, you know, the wear and tear of wrestling, much less those years of training MMA at this level. We've seen the injuries of the last year, but are you looking at this as sort of, this is kind of CM Punk's final, you know, big contribution to pro wrestling and leaving on this note with launching them on a Saturday night, it's, he's going to be the difference maker if this is going to be a success on Saturday. I'm sure that that will be something that he would like to do. And I think he knows very well that the leverage he has here, like you can, he is the most important person in either company when it comes to these contract years. When it comes to, when it comes to leverage, he has incredible leverage, you know, and he knows that. And he knows it because, you know, things have happened in the last couple of months and, you know, look, HCD was back in the company. And I mean, that tells you everything about the leverage that he has, because do you think that that, again, the majority of people in that dressing room, you know, and I, Granny couldn't get a steel in the dressing room, but he did get him hired. But people who, you know, know what happened with a steel in everything, I don't think anyone ever expected a steel to be back with, with AW. And he was, and you know, and that's another story because of, you know, he wasn't, it was pretty much kept secret. I mean, and even, you know, and, you know, it's this balancing act that Tony's been trying to do and it's tough, you know, trying to be, trying to placate everybody, you know, it's interesting, it's, and keep things, and keep us from knowing everything. And it's, it's honestly really interesting to keep it. It's just, like, coming out of that promo, the focus was the Bucks line. It was secondary to, like, the idea of this, like, dueling champions on two shows program. And you have, if you're, you're hoping to lessen the focus on this, it is more heightened than ever because when you hear that line, the audience is now directed in this is where this is naturally going. And that's going to just resurface. And the questions are just going to re-emerge because now your own performer has introduced it on TV. Yeah, yeah, I mean, if you are a wrestling fan and you do not follow us, or even if you do, you're thinking like, you know, I mean, even look, even me. I'm, you know, when it was over, it's like, hey, did something happen in the last two days? And then it was, no, it didn't. And then it's like, then why did you do it? And it's because, and the answer is because he can, right? He can't, if they were to do the same thing on the next promo, which they won't, you know, would they be sat down? And I don't know. Maybe Tony would go, well, it's just retribution. This is all fun and games and it's causing controversy. I don't know what Tony's going to do, you know? I mean, everybody promised to do something. And, you know, it's a really weird situation. Is there any chance of punk being at the press conference Sunday night? If he's on this pay-per-view, you figure he's going over and do you put him in that setting, or is that the last thing you're thinking about doing this weekend? I think that he would put him in that setting. And who knows where that will go. But if he went, you know, if he's in a position, look, he's on the show, he's going to win a match. I mean, beating him would be insane. I actually heard a really great idea from one of our listeners of the idea of MJF No Showing as he has threatened. Oh, that's right. You're stand-in champion of punk. You get your Tonohashi match with punk and that's your involvement. I just would not do that as a surprise if punk is wrestling Sunday night. Yes, I have had several people speculate that to me. So it's, I think it's between that belt and the MJF No Showing thing. I think people have tried to put one in one together. And, you know, I mean, when the first person who told me that, I said, you know what? That's a possibility. I could see that. I could see that. But here's the thing. It's like, you know, what punk said, I don't know how much of that has to do with storyline. Some of it does, some of it doesn't. And that becomes, you know, it's like, is that just something that he, you know, that he said? Because as far as like him, you know, when, when thing was over, it's like, Oh, you know, him and MJF probably, right? And then it's like, it's not as sure as you think. So, I mean, eventually they have to do it though. But, you know, was it supposed to be on this, on this interview? If that people tell me that maybe it wasn't. So, but, you know, I think in the quarter hours is that the promo, which was vaguely about the elite and a little bit about MJF, right? Nothing about Samoa Joe and... Nothing about J and Jews. But the match did quite well in the quarter hours. It was the peak for the demo. So, more, there was more viewership in the demo for the match, but it made about match then for the promo itself. Yes, well, I think that there's probably, you know, the curiosity of what's gonna look like in the ring. You know, it's the first time. It was good. So, yeah, I mean, it was, I look, it's positive when the, you know, when it comes to the AWU's pattern, it's very rare. It happens on occasion, but you know, it's very rare where the, usually the final two quarters are the two lows. And this one, it's also a different night. I think Saturday, dynamics are different from Wednesday. No, we're... Yeah, this doesn't have a big bang theory starting out high for those recorders and then sliding after. Right, right, right, right, yeah. Yeah, but that's not so much on the demo, you know? Because the demo peak is usually not quarter one, the viewer peak very often is. The demo peak could be quarter two, three, four. But it's usually in two, three, two, three, four or five. You know, it's usually not in seven or eight. But, yeah, the, I mean, yeah, that was good. And I mean, the one thing that was really impressed me or surprised me or whatever that I really took notice of was punk and Joe when they first were about to clash and the place went nuts. And my thought was is like, everything you hear and everything you, you know what I mean about like, oh, it's the casuals and this and that. And it's like, this is 9,000 people in Chicago. And granted, it's a punk city. But... They all watch the RHDVDs, they know. Well, whatever it is, this is a feud from 18 to 20 years ago. It did hit Chicago and it probably drew, you know, 500 people in Chicago 18 to 20 years ago. They were not on TV, it was not a big television feud. And they went in there and everybody knew about punk and Joe. So that tells you that this, you know, which is so long ago and emotionally they react to it. It's not like I read it in the history books 20 years ago. The reaction was so big. So it tells you that there is an awareness of by this audience that is far more than most people will expect, at least, at least with me. Like, if it was one of those things where, yeah, there was a, there was a pop to some people. Yeah, I knew that that would happen. But when it's as big as it was, it's telling you that there is a knowledge of CM Punk and some old Joe and the program and that program is, if they didn't even do it in, that program wasn't even in TNA on television on Spike. I mean, this program was no television. It was Ring of Honor. It was the early years of Ring of Honor long before the peak of Ring of Honor, you know, years, you know, which was many, many years later. And there you go. What's your thought on Saturday night collision in Toronto? When this date was first announced, I thought this show was easily good for 7,000 people. We currently stand at just under 4,500. There has been some reductions in ticket pricing. What's just your thought on, like, some of the softer ticket sales in Canada outside of Fribendor? I think people didn't know what collision was. And I think that now, I mean, the one thing is just like now, I mean, you look, look, like two weeks ago, it was 1500, you know, so if it's been a boost, this light. Yeah, if they're going to go in there with 5,000 to 6,000 people, now I consider that a big, big success. And yes, some of it's reducing prices and some of it is the expectation of punk. And look, it shows that he can draw. And you know, you didn't know, you didn't, I mean, like, when he was there the first time, at the beginning, yeah, all business was good. And then business was starting to normalize. And I mean, I remember when they announced in Chicago, I think it was in Granada, there was Blizzard. But I think that, you know, they did the MJF and punk match in Chicago before to build the dog car match. And I thought, okay, now with that match that it built so big on television, added to win trust, the full win trust and he didn't. You know, it didn't even move a lot. You know, like, we've seen so many times where there's a big match announced on, you know, the week before on Wednesday for the next Wednesday. And it's real big. And the ticket sales don't really move that much. And I'm going like, it's a big match. So it's kind of like, you know, you go in there with, you know, the people who want to buy, buy right away, and then you trickle in from there. And of late, somewhat because of the lower and the ticket prices, we are getting more of a WWE pattern where there's a lot of buys in the last week or a lot of comps in the last week in some cases too. And I don't know if you guys have seen the latest numbers. I'm looking at them now for collision. And Toronto is at 4,800. That's good compared to two weeks ago. Hamilton, which is the one that was at 800 or so, is now at 1600. So it's still 100, 2000, but it has doubled at least. And these are all updates since collision has aired. Yeah, but one of the things we don't know is water paid and water comps. True. You know, I think as they, the number of comps for AW, I mean, it used to be two and 300, you know, a week. And it's considerably higher on a lot of these Wednesdays. I mean, it's still, I mean, there's a lot of cities that had very weak advances, collision and Toronto being one of them where it ends up respectable. So it's like, I'm not so much, you know, but again, like, yeah, what you said, is it going to be as good as the Toronto number, if you're talking to me about this, like, yeah, I would have Toronto with CM Punk first time, the pay-per-view sold out. Yeah, I would have expected seven and 9,000, right? Yeah. Do you throw a point out of a mix on Sunday night? Do you have like a viewpoint on the buys for the show? I'm pretty high on what the show is going to do. Like, I don't see it. I certainly see it topping last year's number. And potentially by a considerable margin, I think like there's a big intrigue in the show. And especially if you do a last minute angle with punk, I think that only exceeds the last year is about about one, four years, so we account all in one 40-ish New Can world. Is this also a New Japan world this year? I believe so. I actually don't wish for sure. You may check on it. I thought when they announced Osprey in Omega and Danielson in Ocata that it would be a very good number. I thought it would be the biggest number since, what was it, the double or nothing from 2022, right? The Hangman and punk match. I thought it would be the biggest. But I've not been overwhelmed by the build. I mean, tonight's obviously the real key night. Because now it's like, we've got those two matches. And we haven't seen Ocata on TV. And he's not, I presume he'll be on tonight. He should be. And we've seen no real back and forth other than Danielson doing some promos. And it's very much a hardcore fan match, which is a much bigger percentage of the buys than people give it credit for four. But Omega and Osprey has had the one thing on TV last week that was very strong. But we need promos back and forth. And that's not happening tonight, because we know Omega's not there. It is listed on New Japan world as a paper view, by the way. OK, so those first two matches to me were super strong. And I thought, yeah, way above. But I haven't seen the other stuff. It's not in Jungle Boy to me, it's just a matches. I mean, anything bigger, not. I mean, in the ring, I think it'll be a good match. And then MJF and Tonohashi, the tag line on that is that MJF is threatening not to show up. So I don't think that that is a great lure to get people to buy the show. And we haven't had an undercard. And I mean, that's the thing. It's like, who's Moxley wrestling? Who are the young bucks wrestling? Who is Jericho wrestling? And I mean, all of those things, you know, it's, you know, who is, you know, whatever, you know, I mean. This is a really busy show tonight, Dave, when you're on the show. And then we're listed, like this blind draw, tournament draws, throwing in there and stuff. I mean, it's just, like, this seems like a really packed episode where, again, like, I'm basing my optimism really on those top two matches and the potential of a punk match. Because I think that's what's either selling people on the show or not. It's not like last year, where it was this fully fleshed out card. And I mean, that one had its criticism going into it, but a lot of it. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I think, you know, yeah, I mean, it was, you know, punk's on the show. I mean, I mean, I was expecting for Saturday night. I mean, I was expecting the tag match to end and stare down between, because I didn't expect somebody to go and beat a punk a night one and, you know, a night one. But I did expect somebody to pop out at the end of that show, whether it was Kent or whether it was somebody, even or just a video of a Japanese guy, you know, who wasn't there. And, you know, Eishi or, you know, Minoru Suzuki, who we know, who was on the show tonight, you know, just these different guys, someone to go in there and give you the punk match. Because I think that with the punk match, yeah, I think we get to 160, right? But, yeah, I mean, yeah, it's all dependent on, it's all dependent, but I haven't seen like, like to me of the, of the four matches that have been announced, as far as the stuff that's been said and done and angle to really hype me more than the announcement of the match itself on that dominion show. I haven't seen it yet. But, you know, obviously tonight is super important. And Saturday is super important, because those are the key shows to really hype those by. So, you know, an evaluation of how the show does is probably best for tomorrow or maybe late Saturday night. But, I do think it should be last year, just based on those two top two matches, yeah. Before we let you go here, Dave, we do have one question coming in from a listener who just wanted to ask a bit about the MLW case and with a judge believing it as merit to go to trial, do you guys think that the US government will look into an anti-trust case against WWE? So, pretty like overarching question. But, I know you've spoken about this in terms of just following the anti-trust case with the UFC over the last decade. Were you surprised? First of all, it's sort of the reversal of the judge's decision last week that really just backed all of the MLW claims after it seemed like this thing was just holding on by a threat among prior. Yeah, I was really surprised. I mean, it wouldn't have stunned me for the case not to have been thrown out. But yeah, I mean, he basically almost threw it out the first time. And when I read the amended complaint, it was like, this isn't that much different, other than the, you know, it's funny because the real thing, the peacock thing, for this case, you know, it was bad for a MLW because they seemingly lost reels, but it was great for the case because now it's like, yeah, that clause in the WWE thing of nobody, you know, of complete exclusivity, absolutely hurt the, you know, the competition that had a deal, you know, that's whether it's enough to win a lawsuit that I don't know, you know, but it absolutely gives the case more sizzle or whatever. But the way that when I read the judge is ruling itself and Brandon, you know, let me know what you think. When I read the ruling, I was, it felt like the judge was like, you know what? I mean, it was on, I never, like, like the judge didn't really go back and forth. And it was just like, yes, this has merit, yes, this has merit, yes, this has merit, you know, and, you know, McDivitt wrote what I thought were some pretty compelling arguments against it and he threw, he threw all of them out with no reservation. Yeah, and to be clear, it's not the judge saying, I agree with MLW's arguments, but he's saying that this is good enough to go to trial and to go to discovery will be next. It could probably doesn't hurt that this is in California and, you know, the, I've talked to a couple of lawyers about this case and at least one person thinks that, you know, this being in California will make it an easier case to get through for MLW, just because I guess they have supposedly more liberal judges. But one of the big arguments in the cases, whether or not there's a market here that WV supposedly has a monopoly on, and McDivitt's argument was that there is no pro wrestling media rights market. And of course, MLW is arguing that there is. And that seems to be the key decision that the judge had to make was that, yes, there is, even though it is a small niche market, there is a relevant, they call a relevant market for this case, which is the pro wrestling media rights market in the United States, you know, WV was trying to argue that there's, because on the shows, literally, these on the shows are mentioned in the W's violence. There's all these different programs that we're competing with. And I'm not a legal expert for the judge thought that MLW's case about that point was compelling enough to let it go. Yeah, one of the things, too, is if a W gets that deal that punk allegedly seemed to allude to, I think that really helps WWE side. Yeah, interestingly, W tried to say in their filing that, hey, look, AW has a new deal worth $240 million a year, which is not a true story as far as I know. And MLW did dispute that already, though. Yeah, yeah. And then I've heard people go, what is that? How does the judge look at that kind of a thing where it's like they threw something out, and even though they qualified it by saying it's been reported, they threw something out that, as best we can tell, was not true. And again, with the judge in court, arguing that in your attempt to throw it out, that probably didn't help them. No, I don't think it all. But it is one that, as brand and mentions the next step being discovery, is that where WWE just gets us away because we do not want to go and take that next step into this. But that is where this is kind of on the doorstep of. And that becomes very interesting if we get into that level of granularity when it comes to the level to seal and keep from the public, it might be able to submit some things into discovery, but not necessarily have to make them public. So people like us can see them. But we could, I don't know, the thing that comes to mind first for me is, are we going to see TV rights contracts be a part of discovery? I think for sure. There is exclusivity clauses in these deals. And is there anything here that WWE would rather pay the cost of settling versus let that stuff be public? Well, and here's the other one, it's just like how much of contract information with the talent will be out. Because like with the UFC lawsuit, I mean, as far as how much certain people made is not exactly, it's not specified. They were able to keep that much individual things, quiet to a degree. But they still were able to get like that Brock Lesnar made $8 million for the Mark Hunt fight, which nobody knew. And that did come out in discovery, and it was not like Brock Lesnar made $8 million, but it was like there was a fighter at UFC 200 who made $8 million, and obviously that's Brock Lesnar. So there are, and also things that Conor McGregor didn't up to that point in time when the last round of discovery was talking, which is a few years back, the Conor had never actually made $8 million when a lot of people thought he had made far more. And he had certainly claimed that he had. So it's like how much of that will come out, how much will it, you know, how, but I mean, as far as like the percentage or the total number, as far as of pay that they give to the talent of their total revenue, I mean, that did come out in the UFC case. And I think that that probably will come out in this case as far as is it 8%, is it 12%, is it 15%, you know, I think that we will know that, I think there's a lot of things like that that will, you know, contracts, I think, you know, right TV rights contracts, I think we'll get a lot of or, you know, WWE will settle. I mean, one of the things is that if this was a Vince McMahon decision, I think that there'd be a part of Vince, you know, knowing Vince that he would want to fight it and win. And with it, but his area manual going to have that same thought process, especially in the case of the murder, you know, look, they've got two companies that both have antitrust lawsuits against each other and they're trying to merge them, even though they're in separate fields, they're sort of, there's, you know, it's like, then how does that look? So there's a lot of interesting things that can happen out of the case and you know, the dynamic of dude, we just pay to make it go away, which they didn't do with the UFC one, but with the UFC one, the amount of money to pay to make it go away is astronomical. I think it's far more than in this case. So the fact that they have not paid for the UFC case to go away is, is something, you know, I mean, it's the decisionary made and, and we'll have to, you know, you know, it's something, but I think that in this one, I don't think that, you know, again, the, the amount that they would have to pay to make it go away is not nearly as much, so maybe that will happen, you know, because, you know, but, and the other part of that with the, with the con case, you know, the, the UFC cases, things gone on for like 10 years, you know, and it's like, does this thing go on forever and ever? And I, I think that one of the reasons I think it's gone on is because, I mean, the judge is, I think the judges doesn't want to make any rulings because it's, you know, if he does, the president, if, you know, they, they come down in favor of the, of the fighters and what that potentially opens up to, because then you have the, the carry on case with like the Cajun Johnson one that carries up until modern day fighters as well. And as you've alluded to as well, like this, very much mirrors the WWE's system of operation and whether there would be that grouping that would see that, connect the dots and want to move forward with something like that, but it's a very, very long road for that. But probably would be a lot lesser of a path if you have that precedent out there. The precedent, the precedent from UFC would open up WWE or close up WWE, you know, for that one way or another. And I thought like, you know, this is something I thought had been settled years and years ago and I don't know if it's, you know, I don't know how a court case goes for 10 years, but this one has. Last thing, just as you brought up his name, does it stun you that, you know, we went through the whole Dana White incident with his wife after New Year's Eve? And last night, Conor McGregor's on ESPN for an hour and it just seemed as though, like I didn't see any sort of like real complaints or outrage about this. It was as though, like I haven't seen ESPN address the situation in any fashion at all. And just when you read that, like the man is innocent until proven guilty, but given the pattern of all the different allegations and this being the latest one. And here he is, like this is not like some obscure network he's on. It's on ESPN and it just seems as though it's whatever. If it's under the radar or just I'm when we see the fear that Dana White received and the Conor thing, it just seemed to be the opposite. And the Conor charges are a million times more serious, too. I don't want it to look. The Dana thing amazed me, you know, as far as like, you know, and we've seen, look, we've seen it with Floyd too, you know, I for whatever reason, the standards that wrestling fans have want to have on wrestlers are so much more stringent than if you look at, you know, a lot of real sports and stars and things like that who can get away with a lot. And in rest, you know, I mean, you know, I mean, put this way. Many, many, many careers in wrestling have been destroyed for less than what Conor is alleging. And if something happened with someone in wrestling who was a minor character or even a somewhat major character, and this story broke the way it did, they'd be gone. Like, if this story broke with, you know, and even a major guy, I think they'd be gone until at least they were exonerated. And, but, you know, UFC, it's completely different. Ain't gonna hold up Conor fighting. I mean, I knew that right away. And yeah, there's, he's on the reality show. No one's saying no word. You know, I mean, the case, and the case is out there. Look, the case is getting more pub than a case with any pro wrestler would get or, or, you know, maybe maybe one or two of the top pro wrestlers would perhaps be different, but almost any. But yeah, it's business as usual and, you know, and, you know, the nature of, it's an interesting story because some of the charges and everything like that and the videos are out and everyone can jump on the videos and everything. And it's like, it's a, it's a, it's a confusing case. It's not a slam dunk case, but it's that way where you look at it. But at the same time, it's like, you know, there's no one, no one putting him on hold either. Well, Dave, thank you as always. You're very generous at your time jumping on with us. Of course, you can follow all of his work in the Wrestling Observer Newsletter, as well as plenty of audio shows with Brian Alvarez up at wrestlingobserver.com. It's a very busy weekend coming up. So all the best you, Dave and the England coming up soon. So yeah, that should be another insane week for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's a lot of fun. I mean, there's a lot going on. Next couple of months, like I've been saying all along. Next couple of months are going to be really, really interesting. I think there's a very pivotable, very pivotable period the next four to six months in the long-term, or in the long-term mystery pro wrestling. I mean, between the two television contracts and the merger, it's a gigantic series of months coming up over the next 12, for sure. Dave, thanks as always. Hope we can do this again with you sometime and all the best. Okay, thank you very much. Yep, good to see you, Brian. Brandon. Brandon Thurston joining us here. So there we have Dave Meltzer joining us from the Wrestling Observer Newsletter. Always great to catch up with him as well. Brandon, you are going to be making your way up to Toronto. What are kind of your feelings on Forbidden Door going into the show? Do you, does this feel like a big show? The lineup going in is stronger than last year's Forbidden Door. And for that reason, I would think this is going to do a little bit better than what last year's Forbidden Door did. There's no punk on that show last year. There may or may not be punk this year, even if there's not. I think the two headline matches, Omega and Osprey. It's punk a medium difference, a big difference. Like if he is a medium difference. He's a medium difference. I mean, let's think about like what was the last favorite they would use on his on all out. And that did like 140 maybe. And so I think the New Japan element adds something extra here. And yeah, I think I think the Brian and O'Connor match, the Osprey and K-O mega match. That's bigger than anything goes on Forbidden Door last year. Yes, I would definitely say, I would say both those two matches to me feel like last year was the main event was Moxley and Tonohashi. Not their first choice with the punk injury. But yeah, I would say each other forever. And people bought that paper. That's right. We had the forever stare down going into that show. But I think it's a bigger lineup. And I know a lot of what drove Forbidden Door to do well was some of those late buys. That's what really puts it over the edge. And they've got to deliver a great show. And we got two top line matches that are certainly capable of doing that. And you have not contributed to this boost in Hamilton numbers. You and Goal are not making the trip to Hamilton. I've not contributed to the Hamilton Resultics count. Have you been following any dark side of the ring? Have you watched any of the episodes this season? I just saw them out born one last night. This was quite a strange episode. We will talk about it more tonight on the Smackdown Quarter Hours. Why don't you go over them with us if you would choose? So this was not at the level of the Thousand Day celebration. But the show built around J. Uso's decision. It was another very, very strong number. Number one on television Friday night on Fox. Right. So the last big one was that the previous week? Two weeks ago was the Thousand Day celebration. And I got up to something like 2.9 million viewers. So not quite three, but almost. This was 2.765 million viewers total. In a demo, it did 0.76. This is a huge quarter. The previous quarter did 2.3 million viewers. This did just over 2.7 million viewers. So that's a 19% quarter to quarter difference. The demo. I think there was an entire quarter dedicated to Roman just walking down to the ring for that end of the day. It was like a 10 minute entry. It's really longer than. No, it's like it's another data point telling you. This bloodline story line is doing really, really well. And there's just no denying. No, does it? Do you think it is changed at all people's perception coming out of WrestleMania that there seem to be such a response to the title change? And well, it's sort of incomplete because we don't know what a Cody Rhodes winning the big match, what that impact would have been. But certainly, this is not hurt the company in any way. And it feels like this bloodline story. It's found it's next chapter that has been very engaging for the audience. The numbers are clearly backing that up. Like this is the thing that is the clear number one story in pro wrestling. I guess the question is if Roman loses the title to Cody at WrestleMania, you could still tell the story. The title isn't necessary for the story. You don't get to call the 1000 day title celebration or whatever. But you can still do this story in the will they won't they stay together and all that stuff. Is it as big of a deal as there are there as many viewers if he doesn't have the title? Probably close, probably still pretty big. It might not be as big because he doesn't feel as important if he's not keeping the title. And what's the trade off end is Cody's quarter hours and then that rating do a little bit better. I don't know, but it's not obvious to me and it's on its face a big success. Also coming up over the next couple of days. Thursday, Tony Khan will be doing his regular conference call with members of the media. And we will see what is asked and what is covered in that. And then on Sunday at the press conference, what is your expectation of any interesting figures that make their way onto the days in front of the media? If I'm Tony Khan, I do not want CM Punk up there. I think there's part of it where you watch his public demeanor that it just seems he wants to be so far distance from this, but he can't help himself in these situations that to create these like spectacles. You're talking about punk or Tony. Tony, it just seems that though, like would it stun me? No, but it would probably be the last thing I would want coming out of Sunday. Not to say that you'd necessarily get a replication, but you also can't disqualify that either if he has just put in front of the media and you know the questions he is getting in that setting and who he maybe picks out from there that he is going to just make his assumptions of who knows who. I have to think he's under something like an NDA or something like that that he can't say certain things about certain people and we've seen Tony jump through hoops about that subject about the fight. That would be my first question then. All right, are you under an NDA or are you under an NDA to cover your NDA? It depends on if he wrestles and there's no confirmation he's going to wrestle. I just, it's not worth the risk to me to put him up there, right? Like it'll be some benefit in getting people talking and getting attention to media stories mostly through the wrestling media as long as he doesn't go too far of having him there, but the risk is far greater, right? The risk is in tearing apart your morale or your locker room again. I thought that you guys had a really great discussion on Russell Mommick's this past week in regards to sort of the coverage of this story and just a larger one when it comes to wrestlers, officials being on the record and you're never going to have a system where that is like that clear level of transparency, but I do feel there's enough room in between what we operate today in and what is achievable that is both having a dialogue out there that there's a level of transparency that I think does boost a lot of trustworthiness, worthiness in your audience that you are hearing directly. And I would say in this case, I mean, would there have been this grand harm in having comments in terms of like Kenny Omega and the Bucks did not speak to Mark Ramundi in the ESPN article. Like this thing is not working itself out. Dave is mentioning the fact it is worse now since Friday than it had been prior. And it just seems to me like there is I think certainly more of a discussion to be had that there are areas of this industry that still exist in the just everything is off the record or it is just cloked in supreme secrecy, which some of the most mundane news items that you are provided is off the record. You can't talk about this. You can't ever share this with anybody. And it just like that as part of the fear is that if I'm on the record talking to so-and-so wrestling journalist and nobody else is, does that make me, everybody points at me as being the source of all this information and stuff like that, I guess. Well, they can certainly guess who is talking to who. But there are two factors that are happening here. One is just the legacy of the K-fave and protect the business. And the other factor is the quality of the wrestling media and the semi-professional amateur quality of the wrestling media where you got, unless it is ESPN, where Mark Ramundi will do an article. He works for ESPN and then everybody knows what the ESPN brand means. And people like CM Funk will give them quotes. I guess I just don't know what what's I'm getting into a conflict of interest and things that I should be talking about I think. But like what are the what are the wrestling media outlets that that would be good candidates for this? For for giving on the record comment too? Well, I would think that it ultimately is, you know, the I think from a PR perspective if you're at WWE or AW, it is, first of all, having the belief that it is a value to us to have that kind of transparency with our audience and therefore going to your sites that are going to be both high volume and also ones that you know are of a certain level that that are very respected. It requires the PR departments of WWE and AW to be discerning about wrestling media and feeling that need to have that. And I guess from a selfish standpoint, you're certainly always going to covet like that, like some degree of transparency and I'm not stating that, okay, you have to just like open the books to us if you're AEW. But I do feel there's a lot of stories and you mentioned this. The fact that these stories get out that they would be so easy to rectify if you had that kind of ability to put something out there. That is that is both accurate and can curb a lot of stories before they get out of the gate and and run a foul of people. And the other issue I raised was, well, why if you have a Twitter account or you have an Instagram account, you can make comments on record at any time. So I would love people to, to you know, give John Pollock, everybody should give John Pollock comments on record, by the way. But like what's the incentive when you have in your pocket, all the on the record access that you want. It's not like it was pre-social media where it was hard unless you're in front of a media outlet or on television, something like that. It was hard to get a public message out there. That's not the case today. What do you feel your access to yourself would benefit if it was, if you were reaching out and you are Brandon Thurston from Sports Illustrated, if you're Brandon Thurston from, you know, like a legacy outlet and how much that helps you as well. I think that's a big difference. I think it's, I mean, I did an article once for Vice Media, Motherboard, and it was about the W, about a W network survey or something. And like if I was just writing for restaurants which, you know, I wasn't doing that to this level at the time. But it was because I was writing for Vice, which was a more recognizable brand name. I mean, it's not even, I would say it's not even the Sports Illustrated, but I was able to get a comment out of W, because of that. And they definitely weren't going to do that if I was writing for a wrestling news site. Yeah. I mean, that, you know, for years, I think, has been the like a WWE, you know, very indoctrinated decision. Is that when there, when there is an arrest when there is, you know, a significant story that day more often than not are not going to comment on the record sometimes even with larger outlets. But if ever something's going to come out, you are going to see it on a TMZ or a New York Post or something of that level. But more often than not, I feel if they believe it's a wrestling contained story, there is not going to address it. And it's going to, we're just going to move on. Right. Is that the right strategy? I'm not like asking this like with a strong opinion either way. I'm just trying to observe what the incentives are. You know, like, is that the right strategy? If you want to contain bad press, is that the right thing to do? Does, does engaging with the wrestling media make it better? Well, I think if we're being specific, I think in, in the grand scheme of things, I think sadly, I think there is merit to that strategy of you just plow through whatever negativity comes your way. And the news cycle will sweep that story into the background. But we also look at a story that in the larger scope of things we have covered, it's not life and death. This whole punk situation over the last year, but it has hung over this company. And just when you think they're slowly moving away from it, it comes back with a vengeance. And I think there are certainly, there's clearly that we have heard firsthand in the last week, like a frustration among people out there that there has not been enough of a clear indication. Like to, there, there is no even indication that this backstage incident occurred from the AW side. Like they have not even stated that. And I think there is a line of confidentiality versus just not insulting your audience to such a degree that we won't even acknowledge this happened. It's, it's, I think it only goads your audience to want more and to seek more, including many chances to, to common on it many, many times he's been asked. And he's apparently decided that that's what he wants to do. He just wants to avoid it altogether. And I don't think that that's served him well. If you go back to the press conference and question at all out, part of that was when Nick Houseman was asking his question. And Tony butts in on the discussion and apologizes to pond stating, I shouldn't have said no comment. Or what was he, did he say at the time, I should have said no comment. I should have just no comment. Yeah, I think that was his question in and of himself. And perhaps that is, you know, an experience for him that, I mean, only backs up his belief of just don't address anything. And it doesn't become a story. But I think over this last year, I think that strategy has been grading on people because they are at least enough aware to know that this is, this is a strategy that is being executed in public. And the fact is, this is playing itself out on your television, whether you are aware or not. And it is both like, you're building this show around this controversy and around about way. While at the same time stating nothing to see here, this is nothing to even acknowledge. And yet so much of that attention on Saturday was because of this controversy and punk's first word since then. Yeah, and then I don't think either of us are saying that he should have a long talk and explain to us all of his thoughts and feelings and inexperiences surrounding the all-out fight. But no, I'm just saying there's a wide gulf between, but there's a modicum of a comment that he could have made because clearly punk is able to say, say what he said in the ESPN article, which again is not a description of, it's not my side of the story of the fight. But the things that led up to it and then whatever. And Kenny Omega has made, again, not not a narrative of what happened, but he has made comments around the story in a Renee Paket interview. So clearly Tony is not legally bound. Whether there's legal liability, I suppose there's a different question. But clearly if they can say the say, if they can have comments to the extent that they have, I would think certainly Tony could. That's all this thing needs is a lawsuit to attach to it. All right, we are going to wrap things up, but thanks to everybody for joining us here. We've got DJ Convoy, this WWE comment on backstage fights. They have, if we're going back a long ways, but when the infamous Hartford fight happened between Bret Hart and Sean Michaels, they addressed it on the air, on RAW, the very next week, actually. And did stay on camera now. The fact is, I think that had this been a backstage incident between these parties and everyone was back to TV and it was, you know, a statement came out or not. I think that the fact that there is something to be said about the fact that there were repercussions that came out of this. There were suspensions and it had such a massive effect on the company in the months falling, coming out of it. I don't know if we have, like, a great example of that in WWE at least over the last 10 years. Yeah, I mean, if the factors here are that it was the tops, it was many of the top stars, including the top star of the company. There were suspensions. At least some of them are an employee status. Our executives are literally executive vice presidents of the company and you vacated the titles in the next day and then offer any additional explanation. Maybe something else could have been said in addition. Yeah, I'm thinking of Jericho and Lesnar had their skirmish at Somerslam a few years ago that comes to mind. It was a way back in Kara and Simon Koch, down to a... That's right. A brief fist fight. It was still real. I don't know, anyway. Well, Brandon, I look forward to seeing you this weekend. So again, Russell Namix still going live this Sunday morning and then Brandon will be jumping into the Russell Namix mobile and coming up to Toronto for Bindor and no stop in Hamilton for Brandon. So if you maybe can wave to him from your Hamilton estate as he zips by to get back to Buffalo as soon as possible on Monday. You're going home Monday? I'm going home after the press conference. Oh, boy. That's a long day for you. As it will be for all of us. So you can follow patreon.com slash Russell Namix and on our side of the fence we will be live tonight at 10 East Bern after rewinded Dynamite where I think we will be doing a lot of rewinding and a lot of recapping. The foot goes on on a very busy show and then we are doing the double shot immediately after Dynamite on post wrestling cap day.com tonight we're chatting about what happened to joint the clown the episode from Tuesday night covering Matt born. So that will be the original joint the clown. So quite the episode to discuss and dissect. So you can join us for that. And Brandon and I will be back next week. Guests to be determined. It's those people are reaching up to you Brandon to come on the show. So we're we're starting to gain that influence among people where they become the us makes the booking a whole lot easier. The reaching out to you. Yes, but by extension you especially if you have a history with these people so that helps too. Okay. On that cryptic note we will say goodbye for Brandon Thurson. I am John Pollock. Thank you to Dave Meltzer for joining us and that is Pollock and Thurson.