Investigative Reporter Karim Zidan on WWE & Saudi Arabia | Pollock & Thurston

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Hello, everybody. It is John Pollack and Brandon Thurston. Hello. What's up? Were you having cold feet about doing this? I had you ready there and then Brandon just got up and left. He must have done that. No, I'm back. Attention was diverted, but you were right back here as we wanted. Yes, I'm back. Well, we have a big show set for everybody as we are going to be talking about. WWE's return to Saudi Arabia for night of champions. And what a lead in we had. Yes. The press conference. Just wrapped up in Jetta. They wanted to be watching in time for us. Did they at all promote our show? At the end of Michael Cole mentioned, go on over to the post wrestling, Wrestleomics YouTube. I don't think so. They did mention Kevin Owens did introduce Sami Zayn and said that he's, this is the man you've been waiting for for five years. He didn't explain why, why everyone was waiting for him for five years. So I was a little confused about that. But maybe that's a little bit of a hint of what we're going to talk about today. Well, we will be discussing that. And we have the perfect person to speak about the WWE's relationship with the government of Saudi Arabia. Of course, they had done shows in Saudi Arabia prior to 2018. But that is when I think the attention really did come upon WWE's involvement when they signed this 10 year deal with the general sports authority. Now the general entertainment authority, I believe is sort of the name of the- That's the thing that they are in business. Among the people in entities who tripped the anchor earlier today. Well our guest today, you have seen his work in the New York Times, The Guardian, a writer for Bloody Elbow, and also his own sub stack, Sports Politico. And I would venture to guest Brandon, the only reporter we have had on who has had a first person perspective that he has written with the title, Are the Death Threats Worth It? And we're talking about Kareem Zidan, who is with us. Kareem, thank you so much for joining us. It's been a while since we have had you on, but definitely wanted to chat with you going into this weekend and all of the tremendous work that you do out there. It's vital stuff. Well thank you so much, John. That was an outstanding introduction. Very, very kind to be honest. And Brandon, it's a pleasure to talk to you as well. This will be our first time chatting, but I've followed your work for a long time as well. So looking forward to this conversation. We're very excited to talk with you Kareem. Let's start with kind of a big question and that is WWE and this relationship with Saudi Arabia. I mean Brandon has always gone through the numbers and this is roughly worth to them $50 million per show. It's a gigantic amount of revenue for the company. Yeah, two shows a year. So we're looking at about $100 million. This is not a traditional show where the government of Saudi Arabia is selling tickets to offset this amount or are looking to make this money back. So what is from just a simplistic question? What is the government of Saudi Arabia paying with such an exorbitant fee for WWE to come over two times a year? Oh my goodness, it sounds like a simple question actually, but it's quite a multi-pronged strategic process that Saudi Arabia has sort of been honing over the past few years. There's quite a few reasons for Saudi to spend this much money to bring the WWE, amongst other sports and entertainment ventures that is brought on. But really the WWE has sort of been this central, you know, crowning jewel almost of Saudi Arabia's achievements lately. But to list just a few of what are the things that Saudi is interested in, let's say it's very interesting to see tourism and revitalizing other economic sectors. That's something they spoke openly about as part of their Vision 2030 master plan where they're trying to eliminate Saudi Arabia's dependence on oil. Now the other thing that everybody talks about all the time is that events like these help distract from human rights abuses, a process that's known as sports washing. The truth is I find sports washing to be a limited term that I try and use less frequently now than I have before. Why? Sports washing really just focuses on sort of this reputation laundering aspect of Saudi Arabia's agreement with the WWE. But that's not a fair analysis here. That's just one of several segments here. So we've already explained that there is an increase in tourism. There is an attempt to alter international perception, raise Saudi Arabia's prestige and its appearance as a entertainment and sporting hub, a global hub that's capable of rivaling the West. This takes a step further when we talk about how they use these sports events as a tool for diplomacy. Now we're going to get that into a bit more detail here when we talk about Sami Zayn and some of the things that have happened on WWE shows in Saudi Arabia. But here is the one that I think is really key in that sports washing does not describe at all. And that Saudi Arabia's attempt to reassert itself as a regional superpower or at least attempt some form of regional supremacy in the Middle East, Eurasia and Asia region. And by hosting things like the WWE and other sports events, Saudi Arabia takes one giant step forward and really achieving this massive ambition. And just to, I think they are selling tickets to Triple H referred to the event that's happening tomorrow as the fastest selling event that they've done so far in the country. But it's probably a drop in the book compared to $50 million that the government is paying them. If $50 million sounds like a lot of money, but for an oil heavyweight like Saudi Arabia, it's pennies. It really is pennies. We've seen the amount they're willing to spend on a single athlete like Cristiano Ronaldo say. So 50 to 100 million sounds like an extraordinary summit. It is when you break it down relative to what the WWE makes and live gate, for instance, even at WrestleMania's, which you've done very well, Brandon. This is more than double. It's a two day WrestleMania now. The WrestleMania this year was $21.6 million. This will be just this one of that $50 million. It'll be $100 million. And then in the total picture of WWE's total revenue for the year, they reported about $1.3 billion last year. So that comes out to like seven and a half percent of their total revenue for a whole year. Extraordinary really and very significant. Well, for Saudi, it's not really that much. So for them, some people would say, okay, well, Saudi's overpaying. I'd say the opposite. I say that things are attempting to achieve these ambitions. They're priceless. And for them, it's more than it's absolutely a drop in the bucket and worthwhile for Saudi Arabia to spend. As if we're talking about increased diplomatic capabilities, added measures of soft power where they're able to really allure and attract politicians, countries and fans and really create loyal fan bases in the process. When Saudi Arabia brings in, let's stick to WWE here. The more it brings the WWE in and the more it starts to host less infomercial style events and more just standard WWE premium live events, as they call it, the quicker its fan base is going to grow, both in Saudi Arabia and internationally. I've seen that just based off the response to my latest article on Saudi Arabia for Sports Political, which is titled WWE's Propaganda Spectacle. These people are quite hesitant and defensive now, to be honest, to really target Saudi Arabia as much. They're like, well, this is going to hurt the fans in Saudi Arabia. This is going to hurt fans in general. This event doesn't really change anything overall. Now that's where reputation laundering really takes hold and that's one of the key aspects of sports watching that Saudi Arabia has relied on traditionally. When you bring in a Newcastle United just as they had purchased, you're bringing in a loyal fan base. When you bring in the WWE and host spectacular mega shows and bring in a Logan Paul, etc., where you're creating that loyal fan base that's going to fight for you and that's going to defend you, that's what Saudi Arabia is doing here. So really it's absolutely priceless. $50 million is nothing for them. Some of the feedback I get when I post about this right about it is that, look at the shows and people can go on Peacock and go on the WWE Network and they can watch these shows. I mean, you look out in the crowd, I just watched a press conference. These are super enthusiastic WWE fans. Everything seems pretty normal here. And then I hear these people in media making this big deal about it like it's this controversial thing. So I was wondering too, if you could tell us why is the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia a problematic government? So let's start by, I want to touch on those fans that you're talking about. There's really nothing to be said other than those fans are legitimate fans. They're there to be happy and sound these citizens are no different to citizens anywhere else. The only real difference is that they're stuck under a theocratic monarchy and don't really have a voice or a say of the room. They don't have voting capacity. They don't have the ability to say whether they like or dislike something. So when we criticize countries like Saudi Arabia, we're specifically criticizing the governments. I as an Egyptian know what it's like to be raised somewhere where I have absolutely no saying what the government chooses to do and what it's like to be under military dictatorships. So Saudi citizens. Very important distinction that we always try to make here is that this is not paint brushing an entire country and it is the the actions of a government that can be very disconnected from an audience that you see. Well that being said, Saudi Arabia's government unfortunately, the theocratic monarchy we've been talking about has been extraordinarily problematic and it has been problematic for decades. But to talk about some of its more recent developments, it just recently put an end and reached a ceasefire or at least some sort of peace settlement with Yemen where it had waged war for many years, creating one of the worst humanitarian crisis in the world over the past few decades. Its treatment of women continues to be appalling. Now they are they are jailing dissidents and human rights activists and women's rights activists who simply speak out. Truly, we're talking about individual tweets are leading to our yielding 35 to 40 year prison sentences, just horrific behavior. And there's there's a wide other range of issues going on in Saudi Arabia. We talked about the gentrification required to create this ultra modern city called known which is leading to better winds being relocated and just kicked out of their homelands. We're talking their generational homelands as well. Let's not even get into the murder of Jean-Malfashougi, which is one of many journalists who have been targeted by Saudi Arabia. And he is the one who was actually legitimately assassinated. There is all sorts of things to be said about Saudi Arabia's tactics within throughout the Middle East and international tactics as well. I'd say it's not fantastic that Saudi Arabia has chosen to help welcome back Bashar al-Assad as the president of Syria into the fold once again. So it's attempts to really emerge as a regional superpower is actually quite devastating for the rest of the Middle East region. I as somebody who really came of age during the 2011 Arab Spring and really had a vision for a very different Arab world. What are we? 12 years later now, it is very disappointing and heartbreaking to see Saudi Arabia lead the return of such a wide array of authoritarian leaders. That picture that we saw at the Arab summit, I don't know if either of you really followed this at all or saw this picture where it was Erdogan, Bashar al-Assad, Egypt's president C.C. All these dictator after dictator just posing it side by side in this really fantastic dictator's postcard that they really took there. And it's heartbreaking. And when I think of that as heartbreaking, I think of how Saudi Arabia is really leading the charge on that. And that's just one of a wide range of human rights abuses that Saudi continues to commit, unfortunately, the Saudi government, of course. I think people defending it would say, I mean, look at what W.E. is doing. They went there for the first few shows, first year or two. There were no women's matches. Now there are women's matches. Now there are quite a few women who go over for the shows. Is that causing any kind of or contributing to any kind of positive change in Saudi Arabia or has the government's practices gotten any better since 2018 since this deal started? So I don't think the WWE has contributed to any changes themselves. But I think that as Saudi Arabia's political and social ambitions change, so do the WWE's approach to these events. I think they have to adapt in tandem with Saudi Arabia. I don't think it's happening the other way around. I don't think I think a lot of sports organizations that are hosting events in places like sports and entertainment, this goes across a wide range of things. I think they like to make the argument that when I go to these, to these kind of the formula one does this a lot actually. When we're hosting events in these specific authority and places, we're helping, you know, lead to more progressive institutions and we're having these discussions that are going to lead to eventual changes. That sounds like a lot of white knighting to me, honestly. It sounds like just massive egotism on the west side that they actually think they have that kind of influence. It has I think very clearly shown that Saudi Arabia does not bend to anyone. Nor does the United Arab Emirates. Nor does a wide range of other countries. Nor does China for that matter. So the idea that the west things that they're going to host events in a range of places, and by the west, I mean North American Europe, and avoid a variety of places in that it's going to suddenly lead to these changes. Like women are just going to be allowed to do things. I disagree entirely just based on my own personal experiences and what I'm seeing from these events. What we're actually seeing is that Saudi Arabia is taking these very strategic decisions and saying, okay, well, if we're attempting to actually do some reputation laundering here, well, we have to show that or that we're trying to present this reformed nation or reformed kingdom. Well, then we have to make some some changes. And these were among some of the superficial changes that they made, which is loosening up the guardianship laws in Saudi Arabia, allowing women to drive, which is, I mean, the bare minimum bar. Like we're talking about the absolute bare minimum is what Saudi Arabia was being celebrated for here. And what is guardianship for people who don't know? So male guardianship in Saudi Arabia is how women are generally just under the control of their closest male relative or their husband. It could be their father husband, et cetera. That means they require permission for travel. It's basically an extremely institutionalized patriarchal structure that offers women absolutely no autonomy over themselves for the most part. This has sounds like a parent child relationship. Very much so. And women can simply not even leave the country without permission. This has changed a lot. Now women past the age of 21 are able to do so. There are still issues about, you know, who gets the child in situations of divorce, whether women are even able to ask for divorce. There's a lot of details that are still being, I know the problem is at the end of the day. I mean, we can go over every little detail. The problem is that they haven't abolished the system. They haven't abolished the system. And that tells you that nothing has changed that significantly the degree. Not to mention we still have women's rights activists who are currently under travel bans in Saudi Arabia unable to leave the country. There are women's rights activists, Saudi women's rights activists living all across the world. Now, screaming off the top of roofs right now, telling you that this is not a progressive country. So listen, why? Because, you know, Sasha Banks or whoever is having fun crying in tears in a ring just because she performed in Saudi Arabia or the United Arab Emirates or wherever. And everybody sees this as a wonderful romanticized story. I think this is what fans love and the WWE is almost better at selling this than most sports organizations are. They love selling you in motion. I love getting you invested in something and thinking that what you're watching really matters. WWE has been doing this for years and years now. And this was no different. They did it very well, which is why I call these events a propaganda spectacle. The idea that their women's evolution led to reform in Saudi Arabia is a giant lie, is an absolute lie. But it's great for TV. And for many people, they are not investigating the geopolitics of this. It is for many people, two snapshots a year of what Saudi Arabia is to them. And they can look at the simplistic reform as they see it on their WWE network window that well, there weren't women here before there are now that's progress and I can feel good about these shows. And I think at their core, many fans want to feel good about these shows. And you go to that inaugural event of this deal, which was the greatest royal rumble. And that was one I went into as well of, I can see like there were a lot of problems with this government, but what kind of show would we be getting? Would it just be simply any other wrestling show and you watch that and you immediately realize this was not like any other wrestling show, you could not as someone in me or Brandon's position cover this like any other wrestling show and you understood what these were and going so far as to shoot an angle on that show with the davaris. I mean, going to a level that was stunning, really Kareem when I'd be curious because I know that was a show that you watched. I was floored honestly because I remember right before the event, David Bickson-Span and I did a piece for Deadspin basically trying to explain what's going on, what's Saudi's intentions, why Saudi hosting WWE event. But I think even with what we predicted and what we expected, we'd see which is sort of an infomercial style event propaganda display promoting the kingdom and reforms and tourism. All that was there. I really never saw it coming that they would actually host a segment that played off religious tensions, sectarian strife and just the significant, very significant geopolitical rivalry between Saudi Arabia and Iran. A rivalry that's diffusing now, let's say very, very different in 2023 than it was in 2018. But very, very significant moment there and something that I don't think the WWE was fully aware of what it was doing. But for Saudi Arabia, it was an extraordinary efficient piece of propaganda and something that they can't achieve from a standard sports event. If sports are just at the end of the day, what you're going to get from sports is competitive action. You can't predict or create these added scenarios, these propaganda spectacles for them. But WWE, because at the end of the day, it's glorified theatrics. It's perfect. It's a perfect platform for stuff like this and we really, really saw it with the greatest Royal Rumble. When I was a segment, I could not have seen coming and it clearly left it smart because I believe the Devari brother, one of them I think had claimed to have received death threats thereafter from the Iranians. Yeah. And we're talking about the angle where the Saudi recruits are in the ring. Devari brothers who are Iranian come out waving the Iranian flag, getting lots of heel heat and they get run off. I believe it's five minutes or before he was signed at that point. Exactly. And yeah, I could not have seen that coming, honestly. Yeah, it's still shocking when I think about it. I mean, I mentioned it again in my most recent piece just because it was one of those things that I don't think I'll ever forget about it, a WWE show. And people have talked about how, well, it's not like the WWE has been played off nationalist angles before and really ill-advised political angles. I always think of Sergeant Slaughter and stuff like that. And I think of the sort of like 9-11 terrorism angle. They had a one point in the early 2000s, something like that. I can't remember that. On 7-7, they had already taped basically a terrorist angle involving Mohammed. Hassan. Hassan, yeah. There we go. And then 7-7 happened. You know, the show was being aired two days later on July 7, 2005 and they decided to air it anyway, UPN, the network ended up running a crawl under it. Yeah. And we've seen the WWE play off these really ill-advised political angles before. But the difference really here is that they're doing it at the behest of an authoritarian government that's paying them very handsomely to host these shows. There's significant conflicts of interest. This isn't about any more about the WWE's attempt to, you know, get eyeballs on it or get attention or get a big story or a big angle or get heat. That couldn't have been it at all. This was clearly a Saudi strategy. It's Saudi Arabia taking an opportunity to take a shot at Iran. A significant geopolitical shot at that, something that clearly riled up Iranies as well. That's something we're very unlikely to see more of now simply because of how the situation has changed. I'm humbled that Salman even seems to have changed a bit over the past few years rather than taking this more brash approach that he took over the beginning of his sort of rise. He's taken a step back now and is sort of trying to get himself into this position where he's going to lead Saudi Arabia into the future. I think this is a good point to mention that Saudi Arabia has been trying to establish diplomatic ties again with the… We've always been a kind of a kind of a gas. Always, right? And my cat has particularly an attention seeker. So Saudi Arabia has really been trying to fix its regional rivals recently. So Iran was a great example earlier. We saw Saudi Arabia re-establishing ties with Iran. We've seen Saudi Arabia re-establish diplomatic ties with Syria. We've seen them re-establish diplomatic ties with Qatar ahead of the World Cup. This is a very interesting Saudi Arabia that we're seeing moving forward. And I think that's also reflecting on WWE shows. I am of the opinion that Sami Zayn's return this weekend is not a coincidence and that for at least a small part of that has to be due to Saudi's improved relations with Syria. Because Syrians were now welcome in Saudi Arabia for a significant portion of time. That's just a fact. And Sami Zayn himself might not have been comfortable going. I haven't had a chance to speak to him. I really hope he does open up about this at some point because I saw him posting on Twitter yesterday about visiting Mecca and making that pilgrimage there, which is really wonderful. I'm glad he gets to have that opportunity. But I'd like to know a bit more about the details behind it. What are you two thinking? He's a big comment in the past. I don't know if you remember better than I do, John, where he said that he didn't know why he wasn't going on those shows and that he didn't really want to do them anyway. It sounded very much as though it was exactly as Brandon says. He publicly would state he didn't know the reasons, but it was one where he assumed he's not welcome there and he's not exactly knocking on the door to go on these shows. And it seemed to be just both sides were happy to be at this distance. And now all of a sudden, thus Kevin Owens was on that greatest Royal Rumble show that, of course, Zayn was not on. And afterward, did not return for the next show. Brian Danielson as well did not return. John Cena. John Cena. That would be the most prominent name not to do these shows. And keeping with the timeline here, the second show of that agreement is November 2nd of 2018, exactly one month after the murder of Jamal Khashoggi. And that to me was the, that was the crossroads where that was where it was the most backlash the company got over this and they powered through. They did this deal amongst so much criticism and they got through it. And it does seem that over time, it has just become that these shows are happening and it's the strategy in action, that it wears down your audience. It is those that speak about it are almost criticized for routinely bringing all of this stuff up. And it's like a segment of your audience becomes the ones that are most offensive of these shows. But that to me was the turning point was that November 2018 show. John Cena. It's such a significant show. You're absolutely right, John. I think it's a key example on reputation laundering and what it really means long term because WWE really stayed the course and powered through with that event. And I think there's a real argument to be made that it went a significant way in actually maintaining at least a portion of Saudi Arabia's overall image. Like it wasn't completely shattered at that point during this PR nightmare. The fact that WWE was willing to go, they hosted their event and nothing came a bit, no government pressure at the end, nothing came of it simply allowed other companies to quietly, much quieter than WWE continue to make deals and continue their partnerships with Saudi Arabia. It's also just so ironic and interesting that the only person who actually took a stance at the time was the current person who owns the at least portion of the WWE and that's Ari Emmanuel who at the time returned the $400 million investment that the Saudi public investment fund had made into endeavor. He returns that money and decides, I'm so scared for my life, I'm going to walk around with a bodyguard. So it's really interesting to see the different reaction between Ari Emmanuel and the Vince McMahon when it came to Saudi Arabia at the time. And I think that's something that I'm going to be interested to see moving forward whether Ari Emmanuel has completely squashed his concerns with Saudi Arabia and is going to continue this. I don't believe he's going to hinder the ongoing relationship, but I wonder if he's going to want to extend it, thrive within it a bit more or if he's going to bring that kind of partnership to the UFC as well. And for the sense that was purely a moral consideration for him? At the time, I mean it had to be. Why else would he take the money back? What was he worried about other than that? Why would he give back Saudi the investment? It seemed to me like this was rare and it's rare for Ari Emmanuel because it doesn't really seem to be something he does. He doesn't really have any qualms about anything. He lets the UFC basically run itself and it hasn't bothered him in any way. And UFC does business in Abu Dhabi? Exactly. The UFC does business in Abu Dhabi, but Abu Dhabi also has a far better reputation than Saudi Arabia. I mean it's not the equivalent of Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia, let's say, has a lot more reputation laundering to do and a lot more human rights abuses to distract from than the UAE. I mean it's a much older country as well as well. But the UAE has a far better branding and marketing team, let's just say behind it because the vast majority of the world doesn't see it as the same kind of authoritarian government as Saudi Arabia. So, WWE's partnership with the UAE has never been asked controversialists say, WWE's with Saudi Arabia. Maybe you can also give your own thoughts and insight in a sliding doors scenario. We could have been in a position where this would be the first WWE event in Saudi Arabia with a pending sale when the public investment fund was linked to being one of the bidders for the company. Do you feel that that was ever something that was realistic or is this something where there was just too much to take on in terms of Saudi Arabian ownership of WWE and how it would navigate the US broadcast market and with sponsors? Do you feel like that would have been something that WWE could have navigated in their day to day? Because they were partly made a bit on Formula One too, but didn't get it. Yeah, they've been making bids at Western companies and I don't think that that's sort of the best idea for Saudi Arabia. I mean, they've already attempted to enter the work. We've seen, okay, let's take it from here. We've seen these sort of this evolution in their sports strategy from simply trying to host events. Now they've proven themselves to be this great location to host events, whether it be Zhedda or Reald, wherever it may be, they've been able to host these mega shows. Now they've gone on to this idea where they want to own either the companies themselves or rival competitors to these companies. They have LiveGolf to compete with the PGA, but LiveGolf has run into so many obstacles and issues and scandals and it's very, very short time in the United States that I think that that's played as a significant warning to Saudi Arabia. And it also doesn't make sense to me why Saudi Arabia would be so interested in the WWE. The Formula One makes sense because it's international, but the WWE at the end of these an American product and I don't think Saudi's sports ambitions and its future lies in the West as much as I believe it lies in Asia. I'm not the only person who's spoken about this before, but I really believe that Saudi Arabia's efforts and the vast majority of the events it intends to hold in the future, onwards up to 2027, it's going to be based in Asia in the Middle East rather than in the Western world. It's even making those types of global alliances right now when it comes to its alliances with China and other countries within Asia. So I really think another great example of this is Saudi Arabia's World Cup ambitions recently because they had, there were reports, very significant reports that Saudi was planning to make a 2030 World Cup bid alongside Egypt and Greece. Now why would Saudi Arabia want to do that? Saudi Arabia in this case, first of all, is trying to circumvent issues that would have come up with attempting to vote for another World Cup in the Arab world so soon after Qatar hosts the World Cup in 2022. But honestly I think it was the fact that it picked Egypt in Africa as a partner in Greece and Europe shows you how Saudi Arabia visualizes itself and where its position is in the world right now and how it's almost a conduit to these various continents based on its strategic positioning. I think the way it hosts events and the way it's thinking about sports in the future plays the same path. It is targeting Middle East, North Africa, the African continent, Asia, South Eastern Asia, and those specific locations in particular I think are Saudi Arabia's interests. Does that really match up with the WWE? I don't think so. So in many ways I think Saudi Arabia dodged a bullet by not buying the WWE. Whatever actually happened, say this was real, say they were very close, I think Saudi Arabia dodged a bullet by not buying it and I think the WWE overall dodged a bullet as well. It might have sounded great to events, succession style, sell to the foreigners and go private, but I don't think that that would have been a great long-term result for the WWE because Saudi Arabia right now, government is under a position where the general entertainment authority is run by one of them, haven't been Salman's best friends. These are not entities that are going to operate something like the WWE as a massive business. They don't care how profitable it is. So what they could have bastardized this decades-old organization into something I don't think I would have wanted to see and at the same time I don't think it lines up with their overall political strategy. And you're talking about Turkey, I'm saying that right, the chairman of the chairman of the GEA. He's been featured a few times by WWE including at the greatest where I rumbly got to hold the belt up. They did a press conference before this event where he was featured and he sort of prompted a MBS chant, which there was today by the way, this time prompted by Triple H thinking, MBS and the king. Is he, what kind of a political figure is he in Saudi Arabia? Because we see him a lot but we don't know that much about him. Well, that's what he likes. He sees himself as sort of a shadow figure. He's one of the pum had been Salman's old friends, let's say, and has risen alongside him had been Salman over the past few years. Not regarded as one of the most intelligent human beings as far as I can tell based on what I've what I've heard from people I've spoken to, but considered extremely, extremely powerful and extremely influential. So his position is like a writer. Is he like a writer or something like that? Or that he's a writer, a poet? Is he? No, I'm not aware of that segment. I actually do know, I know he's not popular in Egypt, for instance. He came to Egypt and attempted to buy multiple football teams, including Egypt's most beloved like club, athlete club. He ended up buying his own football team and renaming it pyramids F seeming even the name was lazy and stupid, right? And just throwing a bunch of money at it, trying to basically do what other like the UAE did with Manchester City, etc. He came to do it in Egypt and basically was seen as a big joke at the time. So he's at least been able to present himself as a bit more of a serious figure to the West. But I mean, you even see how he presents himself the way he holds the belt, the way he talks. This is not a person who is who was groomed for this type of spotlight. Let's just put it that way. But he's earned this position simply based on the fact that he either entertained Hamad bin Salman or is legitimately a close friend of his. When we go back to 2018, Muhammad bin Salman, he did this big US tour at the time and it seemed to be as much selling himself as the new face of Saudi Arabia. He was on the cover of Time Magazine. It seemed like that was such a significant push for the country. Would you, based on your previous answer, it seems like that is less of an initiative for them is the US and that image in terms of rehabilitating that image. Would you state that that is still a high priority or one that it is not as essential as it was maybe five years ago? I definitely say it's not as essential. It's pretty much the reason why I don't stick with the term sports washing so much unless I'm making a very, very specific point. Because it's so easy for people now to say, well, okay, I know all the problems. How have they laundered this decision? Saudi Arabia is aware of this exact thing. They no longer care. To be honest with you, I don't think they care very much whether their reputation is improved or they've distracted from human rights abuses. You know why? Money still talks. No matter what they do, they offer some money and people are going to show up. All these major events have come to Saudi Arabia. And at the same time, I don't think bin Salman gives a damn what the United States in particular thinks. Why? Because he's rising up as a legitimate competitor to the United States. We're in a world right now that's resource scare and impacted by a war in Ukraine. And Saudi Arabia is an oil rich heavyweight that continues to have this type of sway and he's influencing it far more now than before in the past couple of years. The relationship between Saudi and the United States is very, very strange right now. Actually, I should have mentioned that as part of the reason why I don't think the WWE sale was a very smart idea either. There would have definitely been significant pushback from the government, I believe, at that point. But Saudi Arabia's relationship with the US is very strained. They're going to remain competitive foes. And it's part of the reason why Saudi is creating this, I don't know what, how you want to call it, new global structure, new global order east of the United States. And we're going to see a lot more of that in the future. And if you watch very carefully, you'll see that Saudi sports ambitions are shifting dramatically from where they were in 2018. I mean, even this is even becoming evidence on WWE shows. I think you hit the nail on the head on so many fronts that I've observed as well is the idea of image enhancement. And we use these terms like it's a bad look or bad optics. It's all they are. Power through, that November 2018 show to me was very informative, just in the sense of we will, whatever headlines come our way, there was even an impact on the stock at the time. There was financial hit that the company took, but they powered through. They get their payments every single year. And it's an audience that I think as we go show by show, it's fewer and fewer that are necessarily wanting to revisit these topics. And it's an effective strategy. And I think that can be a frustrating part for people, but it is what these governments and companies like WWE have realized over time is that we can withstand criticism. We can withstand bad optics as long as we are able to meet these revenue markers. It's a win for us. I don't think there's a bigger example of this genre in the 2022 World Cup, what we just witnessed in Qatar. People spent 10 years making a case for why there shouldn't be a World Cup in Qatar. I tend to think some of those arguments were a bit xenophobic personally. I agree on a lot of the fronts of course when it comes to migrant workers, I've done the reporting myself. So I mean, my work speaks for itself there, but did anything change? They hosted a World Cup that some have since called the greatest World Cup and had a phenomenal final. That's what people remember from that now. Qatar has since re-emerged as a much more significant force to be reckoned with in the world stage than before. Nobody knew what Qatar was before. It definitely wasn't the country in the Middle East who think of first, but not only that Qatar emerged from this as a recognizable nation, but it also emerged with influence within the region. A few years ago, Qatar was blockaded by the rest of the Gulf. That includes Saudi Arabia, Egypt is North Africa, but Egypt was part of this blockade. Saudi was the UN, the UAE, where all these countries have completely exiled and isolated Qatar. But when they realized that it was inevitable that Qatar was going to host this incredible World Cup event, they wanted a piece of the action too and made amends with the country. Qatar didn't have to change everything, anything about its policies, anything about who it represents, who it backs, where its money is going, which countries it chooses to fund, and how different its foreign policy is to that of the rest of the Middle East and the GCC. None of that had to change. Qatar didn't have to do anything. Qatar made slight adjustments to its migrant policies, slight adjustments to the Qathala system in El Qata. But other than that, it bowed down to nobody and it got exactly what it wanted in the end. And unfortunately, that's the blueprint for the future. There's really nothing that can stop these countries from moving forward like this. Is Qatar another country that you could see working with WBE in the future? WCO Nakhan has done a couple of talks lately where he's mentioned site fees and how they want to get more site fees. Saudi Arabia is a huge site fee. They also got one from Puerto Rico from the UK, the Cardiff government. He said he wants a site fee for every PL, all 12 of them. So is there another opportunity to help with a country whose image is not that good? I mean, possibly. I think Qatar is at a stage now where it no longer cares. And Qatar, because it actually communicated and with the Western said, here's what we will change and come see what we have, the immense that we have made. Qatar is in a better position than Saudi Arabia and then the United Arab Emirates in terms of people willing to accept events there at this point. I mean, if the World Cups happen there, how much worse can it get really at this point? WWE going there isn't going to create much headlines. I'd say it's possible. Qatar has a bunch of empty stadiums that it needs to use for something. Probably a world, Olympic Games in the future, but other than that, they're going to need to be paying site fees for certain events or else it's going to become a ghost town. And that's always been the problem with something like this, that they were expecting it to become a ghost town. I can see a WWE event there. I honestly don't know enough about Qatar's history and it's wrestling history in particular. I know that there have been WWE events in Kuwait. I know in the past there have been events in Saudi Arabia. I know that there have been house shows in Egypt, I believe, that there are certain Arab countries that have the history and the love for wrestling. I mean, I was a wrestling fan in Egypt as a kid, for instance, and everybody knew all the big wrestlers from the attitude era. It was very, very popular in Egypt at the time. Saudi Arabia, same thing, we grew up. I grew up in across the Middle East. So I spent time in Bahrain as well, where wrestling was also very popular. So it wouldn't surprise me that all of WWE does sort of this Middle Eastern tour. But at the same time, I also wouldn't be surprised if there is a clause somewhere in its agreement or an unspoken agreement, so to say, that if you're holding events in Saudi Arabia, we don't want you holding events somewhere else. These Gulf countries are very, very competitive. So don't underestimate the competition between, say, a Qatar and a Saudi Arabia or a Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates in particular. Hell, there's even competition between Dubai and Abu Dhabi. So they're all ultra competitive and they all want the best events. So it's going to be interesting to see. There's a super chat here that comes in for us, Karim. Thank you so much for your incredible insight and info. As a fan of golf, Liv Golf has been the worst thing. Hope a man united does not get bought by Saudi Arabia. So there is one chat. I think a man who is potentially being bought by Qatar, actually not Saudi Arabia. I think it's a royal family member from Qatar, if I'm not mistaken. As one of the nation's most LGBTQ plus friendly places, New Jersey is a state of pride all the time. Discover where to stay, eat, play and celebrate from the soft sandy beaches of Asbury Park and Atlantic City to the urban scene in Jersey City. Ivy covered Princeton to happen in Hoboken, laid back Lambertville to funky downtown Montclair and in between everywhere. You are always welcome. Plan your trip at visitinj.org slash LGBTQ. Before we wind down here, just as an overall viewpoint in so much of your coverage, Karim, what has made combat sports such an outlet for this? I look at the impact that a figure like a Ramzan Kadirov has in mixed martial arts circles. It's unfathomable that you would imagine seeing major NBA stars here in photo ops, and nonetheless. This is almost just routine. This stuff happens. It is one of the few reports on this consistently and brings it to light. Is your thought just the fact that this is still the outlier of sports that combat sports holds this territory that makes them susceptible to this? It's a fighter pay issue maybe as well. There's a lot of factors, I guess, that go into it. I think everything you just mentioned is really important, John, because the fact that combat sports is an outlier, as you say, in a niche sport, it leads much more susceptible to the vulnerabilities that come with being a niche sport. For instance, not mainstream. The lack of attention, of course, the fighter pay issues that you mentioned. All that absolutely factors into this, but there is something that goes beyond this, and there is a trend that's there and something I want to keep delving into more and more, which is why do so many dictators find themselves attracted to combat sports? What is it about displays of violence and ultra masculinity that's such a selling point for dictators? Because it even occurs with dictators that you don't even have this ultra masculine image. You had this with the Azephe back in the day in Libya. You had this with Hosni Mubarak in Egypt, which these weren't exactly your manly man figures. At least when you talk about Ramzankhedirof, we know that he utilizes combat sports in a way to create some sort of socialization strategy for his own people. It is emerging from civil wars and knowing that there was a significant amount of extremism and Islamic radicalization taking place in Chechnya. Ramzankhedirof used sports like MMA and boxing to reshape Chechen men in his own ideal image, what he wanted Chechen's to be. There are fighters on a cage for his own pleasure and for his prestige, of course, in reputation, laundering, or fighters for him on a battlefield. Really getting the actual glory there. There's at least some sort of like logistic logical structure for Ramzankhedirof, where he's trying to create fighters who can either represent him for prestige and in the UFC for all these various different sports-washing gains or on the battlefield where he has actual, he is actually useful to say Vladimir Putin. With Ramzankhedirof, you've got legitimate purposes, right? Even with Putin, you'd see that he would associate himself with combat sports because he wanted to present himself as his very healthy, strong, masculine leader. So clearly when it comes to authoritarians, they are so self-conscious, they are so insecure with themselves that they simply require the presence of a much stronger, much meatier man next to them for them to feel secure about themselves clearly here. That's really what it comes down to, or at least when you really break this down, that's what it looks like. But in a wider sense, they're trying to rub shoulders with people to pick themselves, look good. What's better than your dictator being a magnanimous leader who's actually looking after all these fighters and rubbing shoulder with the best and manliest people in the country, the people who you should always be like. It doesn't surprise me that Ramzankhedirof did a lot of this while he was purging gay men from his republic as well. Think of the contrast right there, building up the manliest of the manly fighters for himself while absolutely eliminating the so-called feminine ones. The contrast couldn't be clear, and I think that's very reflective of how authoritarians seek combat sports in general. Do you think you'll ever write a book, Karim? Is that in your future? I'll tell you that I'm in the process of writing a proposal, finishing that, and maybe that's the beginning of writing my first book. I have multiple book ideas, but I'm absolutely intending to write books. There's a thing. I'm a big fan of the documentary When We Were Kings, and that's about the fight between Hamad Ali and George Forman, which is the name of the country over time. There's all sorts of talking there about Emperor Mabuto. I didn't even realize that. I guess that's, I don't know what the business deal was, but that could be another example. It absolutely is. I think Hamad Ali, unfortunately, had quite a few early examples. His thriller in Manila was not much better. Those were two events that could be considered examples of reputation, laundering, that worked to the benefit of the dictators that hosted those fights. Those are some of the most legendary fights that have occurred in boxing, and they have a terrible history behind them. The difference is that Hamad Ali made the men's later in life. Didn't ignore the things that he did, made the men's for them, and actively pursued being a better human being thereafter. His activism speaks for itself later in life. I look back on Hamad Ali with a softer perspective than a lot of these other athletes who really doubled down on their positions. My last question, Kareem, is with as much writing as you do about a lot of these, what are difficult topics for a lot of fans to understand? But I think it's imperative that they be aware of what they're consuming, why these things are happening. What do you sense is the fan engagement, the fan apathy towards shows like this, for instance, that we're going to see on Saturday where people are going to log on and they're going to watch a big wrestling event and treat it like another wrestling show. Do you sense that there is still a healthy amount of people that want to dig into the politics of these shows, or do you feel like it is to the advantage of these companies that there's such a wide amount that don't care to look what is underneath the rock of some of these shows? I think based on the engagements in my articles, I can tell that there is at least a segment of people that still care, but I would have to assess it as a minority, unfortunately. The truth is that sports is a really, people sometimes think, why sports? Why would, you know, authoritarian, why would politicians even go through this effort of putting so much effort into sports? Is it really worth it as a soft power strategy, really that's useful? And when it comes to the fans, it absolutely is. When you really think about the average person, they're coming to sit down, whatever sport it may be, whatever your favorite sport may be, you're usually there as a form of escape as a marnch. You're trying to get away from your day, you're trying to, this is one of the best parts of your day. You want to sit and watch this and just enjoy yourself and not have to think about the shit that makes you feel terrible in your life. That's when they want you. That's when you are most vulnerable to the different types of subliminal messaging that appear in events like these WWE shows, right? People are there just to feel good and to be happy. They don't want to think of anything terrible. They are much more likely to be engaged with the concept of, oh, look, this does look so much better. Oh, great. Now I feel much better about what I'm doing. The ability to sway people's opinions is far greater when they are not being defensive immediately. And they are most vulnerable when they're watching sports. That's why sports fans are such loyal idiots when it comes to stuff like this sometimes. It breaks my heart. It really does because there are some people who are so aware and so self-aware in what they're doing and what they're watching. And that's fine. I'm not telling anybody to stop or to boycott. I've never, ever, none of my articles have ever called for a boycott or a ban or anything of the sort. That's just not what I do. All I want is for people to be self-aware and to be educated and not to ignore things and not to participate in what I call willful ignorance. Unfortunately, most fans in order to maintain this facade of escapism have no issues at all being willful ignorance. It will fool idiots at this point. Well, Karim, why don't you tell us a bit about where a lot of our listeners can go find out more of your work. You've launched your own sub stack. I can't recommend it enough that people go and check out all of Karim's work. He is honestly, in my opinion, in a class by himself. So Karim, the floor is yours. We'll let people know. Thank you so much, John. Yes, I did launch my own sub stack a couple of months ago. It is called Sports Political. You can find it at Sports Political.News. And yes, I cover a wide variety of sports there. It's not just MMA. It's not just combat sports. It's pretty much a bit of everything and whatever I find interesting at the time. And of course, you can find my work and you just find me in general and Twitter at ZN Sports. It's a great day. It's a great day. I'm going to be doing a great job. I'm going to be doing a great job. I'm going to be doing a great job. I'm going to be doing a great job. I'm going to be doing a great job. I'm going to be doing a great job. I'm going to be doing a great job. I'm going to be doing a great job. I'm going to be doing a great job. I'm going to be doing a great job. I'm going to be doing a great job. I'm going to be doing a great job. I'm going to be doing a great job. I'm going to be doing a great job. I'm going to be doing a great job. I'm going to be doing a great job. I'm going to be doing a great job. I'm going to be doing a great job. I'm going to be doing a great job. I'm going to be doing a great job. I'm going to be doing a great job. I'm going to be doing a great job. I'm going to be doing a great job. I'm going to be doing a great job. 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Tony Khan did a media call on Thursday that Brandon and I were both on. I think you were second in the lineup getting all the way out there. My highest performance yet. I think I was third. Maybe you have perfected unmuting yourself. The last time I was on, I did not have to unmute myself. Then this time, I physically did have to unmute myself. The answer is no. The moderate comes on and says, make sure you unmute yourself. If you're calling in on your phone, you can't unmute yourself until anyway. It's not important because it affects 12 people. One day, I'll record it from my perspective and you can see what I'm dealing with on both ends. You asked the obvious question that I think everyone wanted the answer to. That was the status of AEW collision. It's television deal and does it have any impact on the length of the existing deal that includes Dynamite and Rampage. It would seem that in the roundabout answer that Tony Khan gave was that no. It is still on the same timeline. The length of the line is the same. It would sound like they are getting paid something for a collision. This is not something that has any bearing on Dynamite and Rampage and this extension that would take them over the course of another year. I take this to mean there's an extra show, but it's still a deal that ends either at the end of this year or the end of 2024. I've tweeted that, reported that, nobody's correct to me. I assume that's right. Is there more money for collision? I would hope so. We did learn David Zazloff just called up Tony Khan one night and said two more hours. We need two more hours. It's a, yeah. That was an interesting, you know, it's a bit that he attributed David Zazloff. David Zazloff, we called one of the most powerful and intelligent men in media on this planet. It's become a controversial figure recently in light of the WGA strike. But anyway, he attributed David Zazloff. I think he has him as Zaz in his phone. He's on that level with him. I hope so. Hey, TK. Yeah. But are they getting more money for it? I mean, I assume they have to be getting more money for it. I don't think you agree to take on millions of dollars in annual expense to produce another show if they're not going to help you pay for it. But this deal is not a new deal. There is no new deal that I expected based on the reporting going into the upfront last week, Wednesday. There's no new TV deal. There's no billion dollar TV deal. At least not yet. So that's still something that's being negotiated presumably. It raises the question to me, why wasn't that squashed by somebody who knew better earlier? It's one of the questions that is out there and how all of this... Oh, you also put in the timeline that you pretty much have the WWE and AEW rights that if they pick up the option year, like they're roughly up at about the same time and does that play into any of these negotiations. Does one have anything to do with the other in terms of just who is talking to who? If someone is bidding for WWE and this other professional wrestling company, their rights are up to, like, is there any... Just you have two options that are on the table and up at roughly the same time. Our friend Brandon Ross was tweeting yesterday that maybe WBD will bid for both. Maybe WBD will get WB as well. I don't think that's going to happen. And maybe WBD owns a piece of AEW and I think that would dissuade them from helping their major competitor. And I think WBD has certainly put the message out there that they're all about cost discipline and being careful if they spend on, not spending on more, but spending on better. Although that sort of raises why. We need even more. Two more hours of weekly AEW content. But anyway, I think, are there other bidders for AEW? There are all sorts of questions we could get into that we don't know the answers to about, well, when would AEW's exclusive window be up? We know now the Fox window has ended for WWE and SmackDown. Fox is on the open market. Raw is still in the exclusive window. Right. So I don't know. And as far as SmackDown, I think Amazon, maybe Fox, maybe NBC or the major players there. Also on the call, Sean Ross-Sapp asks a really good question too about the pay per B strategy for AEW. Not only will collision go up against several NFL games inevitably, but does this ultimately change your pay per B strategy to strictly Sunday nights? And Tony Khan did not give much of an answer to that. But it would seem logical unless you're going to move up collision on certain nights to- That's okay. They're going to do all Sundays for pay per B's going forward. I think that that is the conclusion you arrive at, that they're not going to be running Saturday night pay per B's anymore. Which is going to mean full gear. We'll go head to head with Sunday night football. Boy. And as Nick Khan said, why are we going up against Tom Brady and his return to the New England Patriots? That was his aha moment. Why are we doing Sunday nights? Tom Brady going back to New England. And Tony has made every effort to avoid running any AEW shows during NFL telecasts, but that looks to be coming to an end. Probably have to run a full gear against Sunday night football. And Saturday nights will have some towards the end of the season, will have some NFL competition. So who was the winning Khan this week when it came to their respective conferences? Tony, Nick, what did you get more news out of between the two? I think Nick. Nick Khan is certainly more interesting to listen to when it comes to media strategy. We don't really hear media strategy from Tony. We hear some storyline hyping and a lot of marketing for the show that's coming up. And a lot of roundabout, sort of non answers about whatever's going on in AEW. But I think Nick was especially... He's in sales mode at the point. He is actively selling SmackDown and to a lesser extent, like all of their properties. But I think now that we know Fox is taking outside bids, there is an incentive for him. I don't think it's a coincidence. He's doing a lot of these more public talks in close proximity and knowing that it's... I think there's a little bit of damage there. But I think it's a little bit of a challenge. I think it's a little bit of a challenge. I think it's a little bit of a challenge. I think it's a little bit of a challenge. I think it's a little bit of a challenge. I think it's a little bit of a challenge. I think it's a little bit of a challenge. I think it's a little bit of a challenge. I think it's going to be 1.5 and 4. That's our gigantic range that we're hoping for. Yes. I mean, we'll see what happens. I would put it maybe a little bit over 1.5 if he's willing to say that. But I thought those were the JPMorgan Conference and the Moffat Nathanson Conference, where he was pretty upfront and there was some decent insight into business strategy, I thought. Well, maybe he'll do the Pollock Thirston Conference, but that would require us to put our names together, no space in between. That's how these conferences work, Brandon. That's what I've learned this week. We could do that. Yeah. We will see what happens. Last thing here, Dynamite on Wednesday night. This was a night where they did not have NBA playoff competition. 846,000 viewers, 0.32 in the demo and finishing fourth for the night behind two, two episodes of Vanderpump Rules and the NFL. Vanderpump Rules dominated the night. I was shocked. What is happening on Vanderpump Rules? I learned on Wednesday night that they're in their tenth season. I've never heard of this show until this season, where it's just, obviously, experts can tell me that obviously something big has happened, that this thing has exploded this season in popularity. Like it was what? Second for the night behind the Survivor Finale? It was number one. It beat you up. It was number one. Wow. Yeah, so there you have it. Survivor I am watching. Dude, they did a three hour finale on Wednesday night. I'm not even halfway through it. It's too long. Well, could you imagine three hours on a week night to follow a program? That's the way too much. There was, so that's a bravo show and that did very well. There was no NBA game. So the demo for Dynamite here is quite good. 0.32. There's not that much movement in total viewership, but that's a pretty good demo relative to what they've been doing lately. There wasn't any, any cell game, any cell outranks Dynamite. This was a better than I would have predicted Dynamite rating. It's still there, you know, they're averaging well below what they were doing a year ago, and they've got no CM Punk. And it'll be interesting to see if he's going to appear on Dynamite at all, if he's going to be able to help that out. Yeah, it's hard to imagine coming back on June 17th and not having some presence on that Wednesday in Chicago. Because if you are a fan that is just buying a ticket, I think you're naturally assuming in Chicago you get CM Punk. Even though it would seem to be that this whole deal is going to be show exclusive to CM Punk. And by the way, two things I got out of the conference too were he was asked about a brand split. He wouldn't give an answer, but the way he answered it, he was talking about allocating talent. He was talking about it in a hypothetical way that I don't think he would have used if he wasn't definitely going to do a brand split. And Mercedes Monet, he was talking about nobody but me and her and know what the plans are. So there must be plans maybe for her to appear on Forbidden Door. He didn't say that, but that would be my assumption. Yeah, I mean it was, yeah, all but said, she was the odds on favorite to win last Sunday, the odds on favorite. So obviously he was getting the blinds ahead of time for that New Japan resurgence show as well. So that was this week in conferences and Brandon, you are off to Las Vegas this week and you will be covering Double or Nothing. How are you looking at this show on Sunday night for the company? It's back to what has historically been a very strong market for them. This is the weakest pay per view that they have at least ticket wise that they have done in Las Vegas. A lot of tickets I heard. You can get into the T-Mobile Center for free. Sounds like all you have to do is buy a burger and fries at this one restaurant. The main event is not that strong. This four way which the build hasn't been great for. The card doesn't look super strong relative to these other ones. I assume the quality of the show is going to be really good. These paper views are usually really good. I don't know that we'll get some really great numbers about what this does on pay per view, but I don't know what this is going to do a low pay per view buy for them. Tony likes to say that when this shows are really good they do late buys. I'm adding this truth to that. This is the weakest that I felt a pay per view has been certainly since CM Punk has been around. I got questioned whether this is going to do 100,000 or if it's going to do maybe a little bit more than that. I don't know. I'll take you over on 100. That's fair. Maybe like over under 115. See, I have it right around 115. I'll go miniscule over, miniscule over. Which would be their lowest in a long time. The first double or nothing did something like 100,000. I would say no TV. If this one achieved, I would say 130. I would take that as a big win. I would attribute that namely to anarchy in the arena, meaning a lot based on last year's match. The build up has been very strong for that match. You do have to give some credit then that the four way, at least the idea of three guys that have never had lined a show before being put in a position. It would feel like it is the number two match on this show. I would say 130 seems. I'll say today it feels without reach but I've been wrong in the past when it comes to underestimating AEW numbers. We'll see what it means. I'm coming back a month later with Forbidden Door as well. Brandon is going to be on the road everywhere. He's going to Vegas. He's going to Toronto. He's going to Detroit. You're going to London, England for money in the bank too? No. There's not enough subscribers for that. Toronto will be easy. It will be a drive. But I do have a dig at me access for both of that and for double or nothing. Assuming there's time, assuming this is not an epic press conference, I will be calling in to the John and Way post show for double or nothing. So that's what we're talking about. Any news coming out of the press conference or the event itself at that time? Do the elite lose on the pay per view and thus not available for the media? Is there any chance of the elite being available to the media? I don't think they're going to do the media when they're loose. It's usually title winners who show up at those, right? So that's not a title match. The anarchy and the random action is not a title. Although it's arguably the biggest match on the show. It's usually title winners. To me, the far more interesting parts are when Tony Khan gets questions. Let's take a super chat here from our favorite MJ. Residual interest from 2018 when you two were my edge and the TV rights pushed the stock 120%. This round, not as fun on the stock side. I wonder what happens to the stock now since it's valued for M&A? I think we made MJ for M&A a lot of money in 2018. I didn't get a commission on that, but I think he's much wealthier now. The stock is not a return to pre-emergency meeting levels. Actually, this minute, it is trading below 100. It has been below 100 in a long time now. That is the latest. Do you see the completion of the merger? Or more importantly, once we get closer to a finalization of the domestic rights deals, that this takes a higher turn. Does there have to be a counter meeting of fully optimistic investors? I think so. The stock will take another jump. It's probably baking now 1.5 as opposed to 1.8 in terms of renewal. I think the lack of certainty, which necessarily there is about whether or not there's going to be a new deal. When there is a new deal, if it's at 1.50, it's not that much movement or maybe a sell-on results at that time that they can probably pretty quickly after that recover. Maybe there's a value. Whatever TKO is valued at, maybe TKO goes a little bit higher than whatever W was at the end because the merger will actually be finalized. That's going to bring it in to this week's edition of Pollock and Thurston. So tune in. Wei and I will be live immediately after Double or Nothing here on the Post Wrestling YouTube channel. Logistics pending, we will check in with Brandon Thurston to see if it is an eventful press conference, an uneventful press conference, and he will give us the whole lowdown. Well, I shouldn't be a problem because I can just call you up on my phone as I'm walking away from the T-Mole Hall Center. I'm jealous that you will be done that show at about 9pm local time. I'm leaving that morning, so I'm getting up at like 6 in the morning. Oh, yeah. You tell me your itinerary. I'm not that jealous of it. And because of Brandon's traveling, it will be a special Monday edition of WrestleNomics Radio. You will be home by then? Yeah. No, no, no. I will be doing that live from Las Vegas. Okay. A live from Las Vegas edition. Maybe you should go out on the strip and try to get some of the unlights in the background or something. That'll get all the time. We look forward to it. The must listen to WrestleNomics Radio every single week. So check that out. patreon.com slash WrestleNomics and you can also sign up at postwrestlingcafe.com. Wei and I will be up tonight with Rewind to Smackdown and then shows this week after night of Champions after Double or Nothing and here at postwrestling.com. You can always keep up to date and Brandon have a safe trip to Vegas. We will chat with you hopefully on Sunday night and anything else that you want to throw out there that you're working on. I don't think so. There's some backlog core hours they're growing up right now for subscribers. The news updates continue to happen. I think I'm decided on doing that permanently going forward. So yeah, all that stuff is there. I can tell you what's in it, but just go and read it. You'll get the latest news from the Texas Attorney General's office. Oh, I can't wait. All right. Check them out. They're very informative updates from Brandon on a daily basis on the WrestleNomics Patreon. Thanks everyone. Thanks everyone. I'm going to lower. Yes. Thanks everyone that joined us live as well as Kareem Zidin for joining us. Very informative discussion with him and we will speak with you all later this weekend.