Richard Deitsch of The Athletic, AEW & WBD deal | Pollock & Thurston

Hello everybody it is pollock and thirstin here with you on wednesday may the tenth we have a very special guest joining us you know you've got john pollock here of toronto and brand and thirstin of buffalo and our literal venn diagram is here in richard dutch from the athletic and the host of the sports media podcast richard is a pleasure to have you on the show thank you so much for making some time to chat with us today. First of all i certainly appreciate the work you guys do you do you have any graphic elements you guys have put my i mean very very small now in my mind podcast the shame. I mean this is. This is a good look for you guys i i respected things look very professional and that's correct this is we are a. We are then diagram of the maple leafs doom basically yes we're counting down to the elimination of the toronto maple leafs we should be out of the playoffs in just a couple of hours from now is there nothing to the other. Richard you're you're getting the full toronto maple leafs experience now okay now that they give you the slight hope and then the bottom falls out this is this is true toronto maple leaf. DNA that you are it's been i move from new york to toronto twenty eighteen and it's been an education. Can you live in the sports and i was i went to school above so i have a you be i did go to you be me to find awesome. I thought this about city yeah john when things when things go poorly for the sports teams that's when i look at my health card and remember universal health care is pretty good so you got that com. That's it so the the elusive stand look up continues for the toronto maple leafs but will not we will not be boring everyone to death with with nhl chat unless it comes up here but you are someone rich that i've been listening to for years so someone that has also made it very much a part of his beat is following professional wrestling in various incarnations having a lot of interesting guests talking about it from the broadcast and media right side. And this is something that over the years richard we have seen more and more w we and a w enter into that. Sports space and where from your perspective has that changed where w we for a long time was sort of like the side show circus and now it's being discussed in these million television deals and i think the perception has grown significantly over this last decade. Yes very excited for me because now i can make wrestling references that relate to politics and people get it now so it's like it's a it's a it's a beautiful world now that people understand. These are your references once upon a time well i mean the way that the w we looks at things in the way w looks at things. Is they look at themselves as competing with every one else for. For eyeballs and for viewership and that's the way to look at it you know look at yourself as a content property against the nba on a certain night again scripted television on a certain night. And where once upon a time i think both you guys are right that i'm. Wrestling sort of as a conceit was considered on. I was a back room but you know it's almost like you were sort of a the connotation for being a wrestling fan was like a pejorative. Or negative for a long long time that may change in the eighties with. The rock and job sort of combination and hogan becoming big i mean hogan was on the cover my old employers for illustrative is pretty significant moment. In the eighties on but today i think you are and especially for you guys do you just doing yourself a disservice not to look at the programming that. On the w we puts out and the programming that you put out. On any kind of different light then you would evaluating the nfl or the nba or nascar or pickle ball or whatever it's a it's a very valuable piece of content. That very very i'm big and powerful media companies are interested in so as a sort of a business kind of play. You have to think of it in serious terms or else you just sort of being ignorant you how would you not look at a business that was just right valued whether you believe in the valuation not at nine billion plus dollars as anything but a monster business. Do you think there's a moment like as some people talk about me like randy savages death in 2011 when sports media and other media outlets that are mainstream outlets. Started to become more receptive to to covering wrestling stories. Great question brand it on. You know i think you guys have seen this to the w we in particular and i think w c w did this as well or fish off you talk about a lot. They have always tried to um attract mainstream media to cover that because i think they've always understood correctly so that if you get that crossover audience that's how you can add to your. Core wrestling fans who are always gonna be there is a champion exactly i now personally i thought i was you know a very poor story line choice but i understood you can understand the thesis behind it. In modern day it's the exact same thing while open paul bad buddy name any crossover star exist today and i think it's working is that you know you're you're able to get. A potential audience where sampling your product that never would. In terms of like the you know when the sports media you know capital as capital and which really doesn't exist you know it's all lower case and for all of us. I started looking at wrestling in more of a mainstream light i don't know if there's a singular moment and quite frankly that is still today it's not like the new york times of the washing post has a wrestling reporter. You know the athletic has only done i should say that should be careful with my employer the athletic has done wrestling content. I think more than anything else because there's a group of people at the athletic who enjoy the content and want to write about it now they still could write about it because i think there's an audience for it. But the reality is there are an i don't include me in this even though i've written wrestling content for them there are some editors there who just who are clearly avid watchers of it and they push to cover this in a more at least when it comes to feature sort of journalistic way. So i think one unique people within organizations to sort of recognize and acknowledge that there's an audience for this and people read it or listen to it. But you know i don't want to sort of go over the top on like sort of means acceptance because it's not like i can you know pick up the Toronto star and read like wrestling today if i go on cnn fox. MSNBC whatever your major cable news outlet is no one is talking about wrestling right the covering wrestling cnbc might but it's always in the context of here's a deal that just happened or hey we have nick con. Or Vince McMahon and we have an interview so i would say. That crossover brandon like exists but i wouldn't say like it's a permanent crossover nor would i say there was a singular moment. When that acceptance came. But i think if you're a. You want to use it as it like the in these frame news organization. I think you have to at least have an open mind to write about the only just using it as a pure like a writing people to write about the stuff because there is a significant audience interested like. The fact based stuff is if two million people are watching smackdown that is a real two million number like that exists that's potentially. I'm valuable customers to read content or listen to content or watch content as you guys know. I'm so again i get back to the what i started with like the reality is like the business side of it. I would say demands at least at times for it to be covered in the same way baseball football. You know what my sense is always been like sports doesn't always want to cover because it's what's not legit sport the matches are pretty determined entertainment doesn't necessarily want to cover it because it's it's got. It's kind of a fake sport and they don't really know whether it belongs in their section either. I agree with that i mean the reality is it's not sport it's incredibly athletic. And if you discount the athleticism the performance of the full in my opinion i mean anyone is going to show you can see the crazy athleticism they have former athletes be on the bell air. Roman rain to compete at the highest levels of is one of the rock lezner is like literally the highest of highest levels you know the best wrestler for his weight class when he was in college. But it's as you said it's predetermined so it's it's you can't place an under a sport at the same time. It's not family ties and it's not succession so it's not a screen you know it's not it's not drama in terms of the way. A scripted drama is written because you have the athleticism so it's just kind of weird hybrid of these two worlds but. In the business world and i can guarantee you nbc slash peacock Comcast and fox. They think they don't see it in terms of business a sport is not a sport they see that like this is content that is really valuable to us as a business and that's the way i think you have to look at it almost like to me. Like the is a sport is not a sport was like a debate like that ended in 1983 like the answer is it doesn't matter like what matters is like it's a content. And i think what you bring up is very true in the sense of w that has always coveted that that larger spotlight in the sports and media ecosystem but it's a. I think it's a double edged sword in the sense that they're not necessarily accepted fully in that light but as we've seen over the past year. I would say that this man got off relatively scott free in the media coverage that he received verses if he was i mean you look at someone like jeff shell recently i mean this man is not held to that level of standard and as soon as he came back to the company. Like it became a business story and then an acquisition story and sort of the sexual misconduct allegations seem to be. Like he has navigated those waters and come out extremely powerful and back into his old position 1000% if Vince McMahon is an NFL owner. You're talking about waves and waves of media coverage and stories. You would have had far more coverage on the settlement that he made you would have far more coverage on every. You know dark side of wrestling kind of moment that the w w has had and that is where things are different in many ways. Vince has been covered like they used to cover the old entertainment she's which was very very kid gloves. Me to change the lot that where like mainstream places are now covering that much harder but your point is absolutely accurate i give the wall street journal credit. They do a great job no doubt they got stuff leads to them and you can sort of you want to play the parlor game of why and who leak that stuff. Agenda wise you can i don't know i'm excited or else you don't. I'm but you're right john i think that's a great point i mean the that's where the. Circus element of wrestling benefits Vince McMahon in that he's not going to be covered the same way where the transgression was done by either a pro sports owner or i would even say today like by. You know someone who's the CEO of a public company like you know you you'd be you'd be in more serious trouble part of it probably was the fact that they were private enterprise for a long time right so like the. Public companies is all there always be. I think scrutinized a little bit more in terms of coverage but. And the last thing i would say and again none of this is an excuse for the behavior which is abhorrent it's just the new cycle in twenty twenty three like everything we live in such an expedite expedited speed new cycle. That like a story yesterday barely holds up let alone a story six months ago some of that is the fact that the media industry continues to consolidate continues layoffs continue to happen and there's just not many. Journalists like just to start with who even like are working on at places that may or may not cover i'll give you like if you want to this example. Like the hard for current like in theory is what could in theory cover or have covered the w we as its own beat right skinnett gets biggest paper they could have assigned a reporter to do that that's paper that's been gutted left and right over the. Last ten fifteen years so if you are a hard for current top editor and you have these decisions to make like you're gonna probably put your resources towards like whatever is going on in the city in terms of like. City government writer crime or something like that sign someone to be the minceman reporter and so. You know some of that is a result of that but you make a. You make a great point the only thing in the interest in the only thing it's wrong way to phrase it what would be what is interesting to me is were there any potential suitors for the w we. Who decided not to go all in because of this and what had and what had transpired with him you know i was always the thought like. Did come cast sort of not want to go all the way but at the same time come cast is a massive business with these guys right so it's not like. Are you like all we're done with this on. You know i hate to say it and it's sort of a cynical take i just think people can make other people money a lot of times i just look the other way. Yeah i mean is there anything that you think that could change the degree to which. The media and and to add to the extension of the audience who reads the media take wrestling more seriously cuz you can go through the history of wrestling last. A few decades sorry just just look at the episode subjects are for dark side of the ring of all these stories of transgressions that the wrestling business you know what wasn't really held to a close to the microscope about and like how does that change is just. Bigger media outlets hiring more people to cover wrestling or what i think it has changed i think you guys should take you guys should feel good about your part in the change like when i was twenty five years old then. Wrestle mom exists not like what existed for me was like. I'm either like fan magazines or the occasional feature in some newspaper usually was related to a show that might be coming on that day now you guys have created the business we literally talk about the business of wrestling. So i would say i'm things of absolutely changed it's not gonna get to the point where like wrestling is covered like the by the new trump white house it's just not realistic but i think. The democratization of the web has made places like yours like available to the masses and so i would say like the rest of this take in my opinion in my lifetime it's really taken far more seriously now. Look at the podcast that exists even if like some of them are entertainment based so many of them really just go through card after card and like. Analyze not just the match itself but almost more on all these podcast probably you know they're analyzing like what does it mean for the business what does it mean storyline in relation to the business. I mean i think he's very entertaining i have no idea you guys feel about it is going to step into stuff but Jim cornet is a perfect example the guy who is had this massive second career. Essentially out of observing wrestling through his prism gen you know a prism of somebody who's been in the business and letting you know how it. How he sees it not just in terms of storyline but in terms of largest of now you may think. He's funny or he's full of shit but my point is that he is created. A business as you guys have that is far away from just like the fan of stuff. And then you know in terms of like the audio space con rat Thompson created an entire network of nostalgia based. Podcasting essentially and that didn't exist like 20 years ago you know in terms of nostalgia. Maybe somebody would do some kind of maybe the w we put out some kind of like Brett parts greatest moments kind of thing that was like nostalgia so. I think things are much better place the the interesting question me brand would be like. Is there a next evolution or not and I don't know the answer to that you know I love watching like the. Ww press conferences or the a w press conferences afterward you guys may have even attended some of their many of them they're like. They're really interesting to me because they're very different from traditional sports. Sometimes you'll get a question that would absolutely correlate to what you would hear in a press conference after like. Game five the NBA finals and then other times you don't yeah and then most of the time another time like very much like wow. You know what a great performance by you MJF tell us about it so. And it's like a we a prop to to them doing a promo are we there everything is that like are you walking in there being part of the show or you really answering the question I will say this and by the way I appreciate actually w we. You've been doing this because I don't think they have to and god bless Tony con with the see I'm pumping and got created a year worth of content just over there for that front. There you go that all in press comments alone. The crazy thing is I actually like to observe I don't know if I can write about it maybe I could write about it but it's such a crazy thing in that. You can ask a question that is a straight legitimate question like with like a business emphasis right and the person answering your question could go. In the character and absolutely not answer that question or they could step out of character and answer the question as. Then you know it's a little different with triple a choose the CEO but if I ask like. Seth Rollins re a really a question about the business they have to make a calculation you answer me straight or do you answer me is. Seth Rollins you know or the answer me is mom and re a ripples case that's where the whole thing is very different. Then my traditional world and I don't know if that's going to change because I don't think there would be any incentive for either the w or a w to play this thing straight it's much more in my opinion. Down side risk tab ran thirst and asking 10 questions that is to have you asking one question and the other 7 questions allow my characters to sort of perform as my characters and plenty people do ask questions along those lines that are. K fade questions well again there and I don't want to I'm not knocking them because they're they're not in your world there in a world of. Writing for other fans like them and as long as you're not saying hey I'm covering this like the new york times. Then at least in my opinion you're at least being honest you're not you're not saying that you're going into the space trying to be the next bob Woodward. Where you have to be careful is if you don't want to be a prop for them that's where you got a sort of picking choose your questions now the conversation all this of courses. Yes too many questions they can decide not to credential you right they ultimately control the access by the way same thing as the NFL daniel Snyder can make a decision not to credential to watch in post. If you want to on any day and you know he's gonna sell the team but you guys get what I'm saying now that's where the league. Would probably step in and be like you cannot kick the wash and post out like there but ww the commissioner doesn't have a rules that ww is they make the rules. So that's where again this whole. The whole idea of covering wrestling is a little. It's interesting but it's also tricky again it in order to really cover the way you would cover another beat i think you would in my opinion you have to have. Either independent places like yours do it as you do or you have to have a big legacy media brand that says we're gonna cover this. With with out playing the access game and we're gonna cover this almost one step away from the access game meaning that you don't take the free seats it. WrestleMania seven you don't you know except when the ww sends the big Nick conswetshirt or whatever like you got up. Sort of the independent. I thought at one time he has been was gonna go down that road and they did they they were more partners then. Then objective observers um. If you're having a deep discussion. You like to see publication doing that anytime soon my straight answer is no i do not. Know i i think that for many it is looking at like where. Where is the value of this coverage and it is is it opposing and covering ww like a typical beat or is it working partnership with and getting your becky lunches and studios and having. Access that we have seen yes p and have i mean it's it's a larger conflict to me of just media as a whole when it comes to covering like these industries do you have to see as well. Yeah there and there there i mean there i think more. Media unfriendly than the ww which i actually consider in some ways very media friendly you know because they'll make people. Available but yeah i mean like you can't. How do i sort of say this you're. It's like let's be honest it's it's it's not that strong of a business plan to cover this industry in the way that i think the three of us all kind of seek that type of cover. What i was what i was going to get to is like at it at the end of the day everything is cost benefit and if you're a spn. Like and the decision is do i add another person. To the atom chef or chris morton sin like nfl reporting beat or do i try to start this. Let's cover the ww and a w as a as a business i mean it's not even it's that's not a decision like there's only one decision there and that would be the nfl like you wouldn't even. Think twice so again i like i i would look at it you know whether it's like. Old school people like melzer whoever else are you guys like that means that independence can do what you're doing and find an audience like if you can look at the reverse way let's say like every. Let's say there were fifty media places that covered the ww the same way like. You know apple or google gets covered it be a lot harder for you guys to stand out in the space because you got these big powerful entities with gigantic distribution. And so that's you know that would be the upside if i was in that's how i look at it but i was an independent but. I think the only time it crosses over is like what happened with the man is when it becomes part of the public sphere and you have. Um you know you you're a leak where somebody is you know paying off funds of something using company money like that's the only time or there's some kind of criminality. Which happens that's where i think the stuff's gonna cross but i. Don't expect anytime soon like to read in my. Local paper online like a you know someone is assigned the ww next to a story on the Yankees next to a story on the next next to a story on the rangers. I think the one good thing that's emerged in the last few years and john and i we have separate patreon businesses that. You know if we're just talking about attracting a lot of eyeballs and impressions to generate ad revenue that that's especially my experience for my website is very limited but if i can get you know a few hundred people to pay me five dollars a month that that piles up and and. John and way of post wrestling done a great job of that and that's it totally i think. Centers your coverage in the sense that i'm not writing stories for just to grab the most amount of eyeballs you're trying to build a relationship your business will support you. Exactly and i think you can i think it's more of the long game that you're playing with people to try and you know subscribe to a monthly thing but is you're essentially building. That relationship as opposed to during your content towards the most amount of eyeballs like i can see why certain sites go that direction like that is but it is going to give you a certain style of of writing and headlines as opposed to. Subscription based that i feel more comfortable in in that way and it gets again this is a individual question so you guys just decide like what is what suits you best and what are you comfortable with. But the reality is like if someone does a really funny interview with roman rains or brock lezman that's going viral and you'll get crazy amount of views for your site great engagement for your site great publicity for your site. That to me is going to be a very very different audience then if brand is doing the quarter hour breakdowns of a w like it's just it's a different content. Play and i think you have to just sort of acknowledge like who you are what you are what you're comfortable with when it comes to me in the w i i mean i feel like i'm a hybrid like i've been. Very fortunate where i was like Paul heyman is come on my podcast many times pretty honest with me about like he doesn't go into kayfay vane and he sort deals with me. I'm straight michael coles sort of in the same way but you know i'm not at the same time i'm not asking them 10 questions about this deposition like i gotta pick my spot when i'm going to something journalistic or something else that's more entertainment based. You know i'm not i generally was never asked about story lines i'm not going that far out but i'm. But you know the real the commercial realities like when you are covering wrestling is i think they do exist like if you have a if you have someone you're interviewing you got to figure out what is my. What is my aim for this particular interview or segment and like what am i what am i trying to accomplish with it and like what. Are the larger sensibilities of my enterprise or my site or my audio. I'm so this for you you know for the two of you like i do think. I do think there is value in covering covering. Wrestling as you two guys do because i i still as someone who consumes us i can't say like i'm in every day i still i think you are still more outliers. Then not i think that's a really good place to be like the means that you have a lane that i think you guys can still. I'm excelling where i'm you know in some ways like if you're on the w we i need five minutes with the i'm getting five minutes with. I'm you know i'm a mister you're not really getting anything particular you're not really giving your audience anything particularly different. Then twenty other sites. Might have on so that is your business play then to me you gotta get by that it's about like i gotta get as much of this content as i can i pop it all up. I'm and do it but it really is a fascinating it's a fascinating industry because there's so many people who are part of it. Even tangentially that it should offer. A lot of avenues for people to get information i mean just look at the rosters you know like. You know maybe Roman rain is gonna be your source but there's a hundred twenty how many ras wrestlers are on the. The rosters right between next to w like there are people like who are there who have insight even if they are sources that are anonymous sources like there. It's it's the numbers of people who are connected to the business that's where there are similarities to sports like there are a lot of it's not just a three person enterprise or anything like that. As someone that has spoken to some very high level people i'm kind of curious your observations of the wrestling aggregation game when you have a big wrestling interview and the volume of pickup that a quote an interview might receive in professional wrestling as opposed to other other sports i mean is this. An anomaly compared to others because it seems that you drop an interview and it's like there are dozens of sites that are just. Gearing up for a big interview drop like that and how many stories can be taken from it yeah there's nothing else like that this is the wrestling. Aggregation business is a unique. I am your Thompson is listening yeah it's a unique yannas animal in terms of like it's a one of one that's a unicorn. You know the one i did a couple early interviews with wrestling people like literally like i was stunned like it was like a now a half after posted at like 3 a.m. Eastern time like it started to get aggregate. So i was like what what the hell like people need you care up yeah i need you help trust me when i said that i was like what is going on because i couldn't even get it to my places. To sort of write about you know i have it on a podcast but i want i would want to have done something for sports illustrator now for the athletic. Now i've just come to realize like that is just the reality of the game. I'm they're not bad in terms of attribution i have to be honest most of the places that i've seen the i'm using me as an example when i've done stuff they usually. They usually give me attribution somewhere in the piece i don't think i'm getting any kind of referrals from i think once people are reading the summary it's over like they're not coming back to the. Original sourcing on there's honestly just nothing you can do about it like the aggregation is just unfortunately part of the world i'd be a hypocrite because i worked at two places sports illustrator in the athletic which do you aggregate now they certainly don't aggregate the way some. Really bad aggregators do but they do aggregate in some form so i'd be i'd be a total hypocrite to be like oh i'm anti aggregation where gets frustrating as a content producer and i'm sure you to have both felt this way is when the aggregator just goes. Like way too far in my opinion in terms of fair use and that's when it just like it's infuriating. If somebody's taking like forty percent of the piece you know or thirty five percent of the piece. So then you have to make a decision like do i do i do i talk to my employer and like try to like go through. Official means to try to get like the aggregator to take less down but by then it doesn't mean like it's already out it's out for hours like what so like the next day if somebody. Like like reduces that from forty percent to like twenty percent aggregation like it's not gonna do anything for me. At that point on the system is game i don't know how to fix the system it is frustrating it's frustrating when you work at a place that actually pays the money whether it's for labor or for travel to get the information. And it's quickly i'm aggregated but wrestling is incredible i mean whether it was him and. Michael Cole i'm. Try to set for all and trying to think who else i had twenty con on once not too long ago i mean literally we're talking like hours after posted in the middle of the night eastern time. It the best parts of the interview had already popped. I think all the people wrestling also know this like i remember correctly talking to twenty con i think he actually we just joke after the interview said all this let me tell you this part when i said this is gonna get a great like he knew. Whether he was. Being perform it or not with me i don't think he was he was keenly aware of what was gonna get popped. I'm and i think what got popped on that was something hit him he went to a party with like Warner Brothers discovery. People and it was like he had a great conversation with him and when i was like oh like you know maybe wb d is gonna pick up a long term like everybody's getting along kind of thing. I'm but yeah it's nothing's like that i mean sports stuff gets aggregated nothing like the speed arrest not even close. What is your deal in spin like you you know i mentioned like it's been fairly positive with wb is that process any different than going to other outlets for instance like how do you find wb handles its media relations yes i gotta keep in mind like you know again like i'm sort of a specialized be writing about media. So it's. I'm not gonna have the same kind of relationship that the beat writer of the Atlanta Falcons has with the Atlanta Falcons PR people which at times there is going to be really heated. Other times okay you know so maybe sometimes great. I'm so if i would for that for me generally speaking is going to be more the spm or fox or cbs if they're ticked off at something i've written that's where it's more for me on the. You know the traditional like sort of sports writer sports PR staff relationship my relationship with the wb and a w could not be better. They are clearly trying or they have clearly tried to. I'm covered the places i've worked for when i worked with sports illustrated. I'm you know it had been at that point passed by us p and but still you know a massive massive place with. Three and a half million subscribers and twenty million people reading it a week so if i'm calling the ww they're at their catering to me i mean it's it was a noticeable. Difference in how their p r people would deal with me i felt. Then house for people traditionally deal with sports writers or sports television people. You give them credibility by being a big right i didn't in many ways i i mean i'm just gonna be honest with your audience i have the leverage there. Because i'm bringing a massive credible institution. And i have an audience that they cover that they can't necessarily get to every week. From their own and i think they look at incorrectly so if i never talk and they know the aggregators listening and they're gonna amplify whatever happens. Was gonna say this it would true but like if i don't talk to if i don't talk to. Anybody ww or a w ever again the likelihood is i can still do my job right the light i mean the likelihood is like nothing will change from me personally i'm only using me as an example. So in that sense i have a lot of i should say a lot i have leverage with them in terms of the ask. So i have never been turned down by ww for any request. Of a of a performer or person i'm not as reduced so let's just be clear and i think unquestionably they would turn me down if i did. I'm trying to think of a r s for Stephanie McMahon. I'm no i don't think i have but every performer i have ever asked them for it might not have been immediate but eventually. It was there a w i have no with as much but when i asked for Tony i got Tony um. There's a couple of people that i put a request in that i think i will get around a big show there's coming up so i have no. Sort of worries about that so my experience with them has been really really good now. As i sort of said before um the the. For them dealing this goes back to like this in the eighties and and fish off in the nineties. The wrestling is always wanted mainstream acceptance or publicity in some way and i do think that whether it would be me at the athletic. Anybody calling from ESPN anybody calling from the washington post anybody call you know just you know generic. Use whatever your legacy media type of outlets would be i think they would get the same exact treatment if not better i know for a fact because i remember talking to. The w w is head p r person now chris le jentile i believe from hopefully not blowing his name and i'm going to his name whatever chris y'all have to live with it because i'm sure my last name is well. I like chris a lot i know him from his days at the zone as well. I'm. And i remember talking to him and like he we had a conversation about i'm because i'm always interested in this like where you trying to place people and i remember he had told me. That right after wrestle mania the winners we're gonna be on the today show i think that's the last time i never actually saw it happen you guys might know i think yeah okay but the point was trust me on this whatever the today show wanted it w was going to make happen. And was gonna get them whatever kind of access that they needed the performers would know very well that this was important to the company they would be on there. Absolute like a game in terms of whatever sort of they should sort of do for the today show. And i think that's one difference between like a place is like mine and traditional wrestling places is that we i think get. How do i say it what where. The balance of power isn't so great on the w we it's a little more even and i think they understand. That to be in the athletic. Or to be back in the day sports illustrated get you up a chance to get in front of an audience that doesn't normally sample your product and that's potentially a very very valuable audience person. Because that somebody who may be hasn't been there then if they stick around that's how you're building your product you have to make a presumption at some point that the hard course is going to be there. So how do you bring how do you convert the casuals. Hard course and that's why i feel like someone like that's what i feel like the places right work. Can be valuable and that's why i think my. Relationship with the w b has been i mean also i feel like you know i'm a professional and i'm always honest and upfront with. Who are you i tell them straight out that like i'm never gonna give you bullet points of my i'm never gonna give you my questions. We can address broadly what i might want to talk about but i'm never going in depth with my questions are that's just not how. That's not what happens in my world they respect that i think and they they know that on. And so yeah it's been a i've appreciated my relationship with them because i have found. Both w b p r any w p r to be professional and by the way i found w p r. Who are the people who i dealt with five ten years ago which was a different group than the current group now i would say they were the same as well. I also respect them if i can step away from journalist for a second like i just i think they have had hard jobs working for Vince McMahon. Probably a little better now under the con so i do respect that it's not an easy gig for them when. One man in that you have to sort of. You have to please one man in everything i think that probably was tricky navigation process for p r people for a long time at that place. Yeah i'm i'm pretty selective now when i do reach out and many times you just won't get a response but one that was very amusing was a few years ago. Making the request for kevin done to the head of wrestle mania of just like producing wrestle mania and kind of going out from that interview well. This was just like let's just throw it out there and it was so ridiculous that the response could not come back in record time of just pretty much there is absolutely no chance of this happening interview but i thought it would be worth the ask no less and i would think that that would be someone certainly up your alley Richard of i don't think i would i think you'd say no. Tonight i probably so i think i think that no would come i think that no would come with more deliberation if i'm gonna be honest and it would for. You know you should you should make fun request like request uh. Request their lead lawyer their lead accountant i mean these will all be knows but it would be amusing to just make the request and see what jerena has done a few interviews funny thing is jerena. I don't think he's as impossible to get as me i know i actually think this would be harder to get the meeting person by a lot of but yeah kevin i don't see kevin i mean. Kevin down is the guy who knows where the body's buried he's not gonna do any kind of interview i don't think. I'm you know as a public company though i do think their calculation has to change like nikon does more. Has to do more interviews than now as a as the front face of a public company any would or any would as a private company and i do think in some ways. I'm being public does get you more. Give you a chance from more access but you know again like the. He's also very very effective in that role like you know i would call when he was at c a a i'm and i think he's a incredibly bright guy. I'm you know i when i was on strictly business with them ark fish off and john alba i i i'll say the same thing to you guys that i said to them what one of the cons true geniuses is his ability to make you. Believe whether it is true or not that he is really invested in what you have to say and that is the case for whether you are. The head of comcast or you are a waiter serving him at some. Loss of a gets grilled that's a real skill any problem that in many ways is an agent. I'm the other thing i would say is he is not a guy who comes from like wealth per se he's not a silver spoon kit and i know like you know even how to pay for work is way through college paper law school stuff like that. And i think that again this is just me playing amateur psychologist i think that gives him. The ability to work a room where there is crazy wealth in it right like the billionaires the billionaires but also to be able to talk to town who may have come from different backgrounds or just talk to fans. Who may have come from different backgrounds i think he's been incredibly effective in that. You do not survive make man family battles as he did without being incredibly skilled navigator human beings. Do you think that that's why he's known to be this great negotiator of tv deals just the relationship building. I mean i'm not gonna be in the understanding of the you know i'm not i'm not i'm not in the room i haven't been in the room with him so i'm not declaring him the connor mc david negotiations point. I'm he has a good he's had great products to negotiate right so like. I'm you know if he is helping out like. A conference i think i think i want to remember like if he was an advisor to the scc when they made their. College football whatever my my larger point is help make that deal yeah the guy has had great properties. It's it's i'm not saying it's easy but it's much easier to be a great negotiator if you have a blue chip property. Then if i'm negotiating with you brandon and i got a five thousand dollar jalape car that i want to sell you versus my ma's a ride like i have the ma's a ride i got a better deal. In terms of my hand to try to sell you i'm a sucker for five thousand dollar jalape a brand you're you're a man of people so i'm using a bad example. I'm so i think he's a good negotiator but i also think he knows that he's got a good property and here's the deal when it comes to the w and it's upcoming media rights. He's in a leverage position with comcast. And be safe for sure i mean peacock you guys know this you guys are far more. I'm. Deep in this and have much better knowledge than me but do you think peacock. What is peacock without the w we inventory. For me it's a pretty i mean that's that's a property for for peacock i would say like yes you know they had the super bowl last year but the super bowl is not going to be something that's a month to month subscription service correct like they have primarily and ask the other properties and if anybody from nbc hears a sick e-mail me and yell at me all i want. Without the w we. How many millions of people would drop that product i'm the that they are the killer app for peacock in my opinion right that's that's the value play and by the way incredible inventory if you're wrestling fan it's incredible. So i think con has a big leverage play with them i think he's in the leverage position so makes the negotiation better. Let's use the other existing rights of fox. Well if fox is still in the news and live business which lockman america everybody else continues to say they are. I'm providing you with a pretty nice piece of property right every friday for two hours i'm getting you. You guys know the numbers that i mean two million fair to say on over fifty two week period what is the brand you know almost almost two and a half of the last week was especially week but. Okay around to have yet okay so i'm getting you two and a half million people just in terms of audience on linear that's what i'm getting you alone is probably other sort of auxiliary benefits to being in business with the w we. That's a pretty good leverage and if fox doesn't have anything to replace it fox is not one of the place that was scripted programming they've already said they're out of that business expensive that's mentioned the writer strike the writers right now either yeah. The program anyway so if you don't have that what do you put on their fox usfl i mean you know you'll put something on but. It's a good property for them then you have. Whether it's another traditional linear company of you know cbs. I'm disney with a d c. That could be valuable programming for them as well obviously yes p and plus would love to have w we programming they'll take anything because it just makes their. Product more valuable and then you know amazon apples of the world there always wild cards but he's not really an issue for them. Would they be interested in doing what peacock did on their network so. Con has a lot of hands to play so in terms of him being a skilled negotiator i don't doubt that he is. What i think he's got some pretty good he definitely has leverage with the universal that's unquestionable and then i think i need a pretty good hand i think. For either a second or third right so the partner depending on how they want to play. How much do you think with the NBA ends up here cuz everybody sort of speculating that everybody's interested in the nb obviously the incumbents wb d yeah any sp and i mean it's conceivable that fox my co after the nb a and then be see if and. Those are the nb more like the last time you know it's. I could call up like the nba and say i'm interested in all some i can. accurately report that richard dutch is interested in the nb like they'll kick the tires because that's what you're paid to do. Fox i think is a much harder play because the nba has a lot of inventory. And fox would have to carve out a night it doesn't have any nba. History it's a bigger play it's a bigger. Ask for them given what i think the nb is gonna want forget about the politics or anything with you want to be associated fox nuts not even really the issue it's fox doesn't have a history. With the nba and would they create the infrastructure to try to do an nba property i don't see it nbc has a long history with the nba. There's a legacy play there it also fits their portfolio pretty well that's more to me of a likely scenario but yes like there is a fine amount of money. That some of these places have i don't know if amazon apple have fine money they sort of infinite money google you do as well. I think that if you're con obviously you gotta pay attention to what. The nba what's going on with the nba but right now the two incumbents for the nba with one of the discovery and disney. Are not players in the wb this moment right so if they let's play i don't know who's gonna get the nba i'm saying my written about my thoughts but let's say they to start with have a piece of it in addition to an amazon apple. What comes big players are not part of that. Outlay right fox and and universal would still have all its money to still going on the wb so i think they're watching the nba in terms of who's gonna bid. But unless fox or or or nbc which is the more interesting one really goes big in terms of big dollars. I think they're still in a they're in a good position the only thing that really. I think could be interesting or challenging for wb or you know what the t k or whatever the new companies is that nbc really decides to go like all in on the nba and got like half the package which is going to cost in the billions. Then maybe they're out on the ww because i think that that's where there's the money doesn't work but. I just don't see i don't see nbc becoming like. Warner brothers discovery or is p and when comes to me i i think they're gonna want part of that contract but i don't think they're gonna want like half of it that's. Do you think this is the disintegration of the rs ends does that free up a lot more inventory and is that that make me feel like what we have we have the extra games we might as well sell to and that opens up more partners what it does is what what the explosion the rs and has done is it it's gonna make the nba want to go more national and. What that means is they're gonna look to more. Over the air kind of places national places as opposed to the rs and the rs and models crumbling. There still has to be some kind of local. Broadcast right but i think the exclusivity of a lot of those local games are gone so you might actually let's say you're a warriors fan okay once upon a time. Warriors grizzly's game would only air on. You know the local station or that local rs and had the rights to that exclusive those exclusive days i think you're done you might actually get that game locally with the local announces but you're also be able to watch it on the s b m plus you're also be able to watch it on. You know where nbc or something like that. I think the nba. After seeing this in implosion. Much like the nfl they're gonna try as best they can go to national model they cannot do what the nfl does one is a seventeen games right inventory is such you can do it nationally the others 82. But i think you're gonna see as much as they can. I'm trying to. Try to bring in another national rights holder partner to get some reach on those. Games in the nba this is where everything is it's crazy that what's all this new again you know. When we were younger all of us like you got games on over the air television like major sports games right and then everything more to cable. You're now gonna see things go back to over the air because these networks know that's where the best potential reaches and you can sell off that stuff as the cable universe with court cutting continues to you know spin down spin down spin down. Let's end on this we do have a listener question coming in here from a jake who wants to ask Richard. How have you seen the mainstream warm up to the ufc in recent years how would you see their future with Disney and ESPN and would one of brothers discovery have interest or does the power slap failure. Tarnish that so a couple of questions last one i mean you know i have nothing should surprise me on earth in twenty twenty three but holy shit how is just a disgrace. Like the literal like like to viewers everywhere i am not discounting the white is obviously very brilliant genius guy what he does but like. That is just awful time i think just horrific television maybe doesn't appeal to me my demo but man like i don't know how if you're like some kind of what about discovery or nbc universal disney like how you can put that off like somebody will take a somebody will take everything but man. So no the short answer after the new year's eve situation with aina and his wife on top of it like i thought that was. What is the point of course listen yeah always never been on the morality of television exactly it's a good road can you throw that the first part so that's w w w w b d is no i don't see. I don't see power slap coming but in terms of the yeah i mean listen the warm up to the u f c is a very good question thanks jake. Is is all business ESPN slash disney saw that they could use the u f c to turbo charge ESPN plus it became much like peacock has used the w w e to. To get millions of subs for them that this is what is p m plus did using u f c so. You know whatever i don't even think like if you if disney management had any kind of issues about u f c like the sport itself they clearly were super seated by the business interest which were like. Look at all these young males between the ages of eighteen forty with the scratching income who are gonna buy these fights. I'm and so you have seen me is mainstream like i it's not the NFL but you know you see it written about on. Website soul of the place you see written about in. In newspapers on i look at it is like as. As mainstream a content play as like the smaller news sports you know whether that be on. Women's college softball or a lacrosse or whatever now you see can be obviously bigger than those depending on the event in terms of people watching it. But i don't see any way that. Disney is gonna not continue with the u f c heading forward i just think it's it's such an important part of the rest p m plus. Program model and then the real issue and i don't know if you know the answer to this is like what is the merger. That's the right word or the fifty one forty nine what does that mean for you have sick like with this new business model they have their own media rights feel coming up i think it's a year after w w e. I'm so they obviously have to think about what they want to do and obviously never want to meet your rights increase nobody nobody goes in looking for a reduction. But you know they have a strong hand because they can point to viewership they can point to what they've done free s p n plus and how they've grown that. I'm they can point to their market cap in terms of how much more valuable that company is today than it was you know five six years ago. And they have one thing in terms of the sporting model like the best fight the best right i'm not the biggest you have seen fan but even i can understand that like that. That's that's what kill boxing in many ways is you just never got to see the number one right person fight the champ or the number two right person fight number three and you have seen his has. Has figured that out i do think to there's- they they they they figured out the formula to. To get men under the age of thirty five pay for their product whether it's appealing to their. Base testosterone levels or whatever but they unlock it like that's that's the audience it's a big discretionary income audience and that's a business right there. I'm so answer your question jake i think the relationship between the traditional legacy sports brands and you have to continue. And i haven't studied enough but it would not surprise me if like you have seen got another major player to go in with them in you know in addition to this. Nick could set after the after the merger that. The TV deals the linear deals probably not be dealt together but there's a chance of the the streaming deals could be dealt together because you know i'm alive with that that's how you make more money i wouldn't i would absolutely negotiate separately cuz you don't wanna. Different products different audience potentially different companies would buy them the streaming one's interesting because that. That's where the back and tech you could probably you might be able to make it work you know as a streaming product for boat i mean again i'm just spitball in here but. You know it wouldn't be inconceivable to have the w we slash ufc network like as a streaming product and like somebody bids on that combined service i'm not saying that'll happen but. Like philosophically you can understand that as a potential like massively. Big property for someone to buy it on specially streaming service that's like looking to get three four million new so. And wrestling fans are terrified that don't need to go back to a paper be model. I mean i was reaction i got from people but i know there is the element of like you don't want to give a big f you to your fan base right that's. I can't look smart me i would not do that i think that's. I can tell you someone works in a business where. It is a slog everyday to try to convince people to spend sixty dollars to to read your prestige sports writing site like you gotta try to get everybody in. As much as you can it's hard to get any kind of subscriber i. I'd be careful about having a price point that most fans are used to and then all sudden boom let's look back to the paper on the sixty to ten to five yeah like i i think that would be a terrible business. Decision but you know those guys will run the math and i'm sure they will. Figure out what is a. What's best for them but it's it's. Again it's as someone who's love who's really you know very passionate about wrestling and love sort of the. The behind the scenes stuff not even business stuff just per se but just like the sort of the. How performance can go between real life and not on it's it's interesting cool for me to see that like. Big places are now talking about like the ww meteorites in the same discussion points that they will be in the college football. Richard we've got an hour here you've been exceptionally generous with it with your time fascinating discussion would love to have you back sometime but people can go seek out all your fine work at the athletic and the sports media podcast if you've enjoyed this last hour it's a must to add on your podcast app of choice. With the aggregators having it on on favor of a must i will say before i get out here i respect and appreciate what you guys do on and you know Brandon you should really. Feel good like i have seen multiple places now take your work and use the ratings that you provide as a discussion point for their content. So you know when your work is then being aggregated as a big content play for others. You feel good about that man you're on something that people are interested in. Thank you something i'm doing the google news vanity search regularly so yeah. I will do that you know just a second. Are you are people and reputation management very important yes will you be watching tonight the Toronto Maple Leafs or the CNN town hall. Or don't like both. We're going to be probably on both yeah which will disappoint me more. I'll be flipping between both i absolutely will watch the Maple Leafs just i am really rooting for them to win because it's already. Just a whole doom and gloom news cycle that they've they're down zero three so when at least i think would provide. Some of the hard course at least a little bit of a moment as for the. The trump town hall not that you guys are political show i think CNN. Is it an impossible position and i think. You you will see the impossible position realized during that show that's that's that's that's that's as well as all for it. Again. As a you know there's a somebody very smart one said the answer to all your questions is money. For television executives the answer to all your questions is your ship. Same. This man he's got all the answers and hopefully we ask the right questions today so richard thanks so much for joining us it's a pleasure to finally get to speak with you and very much appreciate the kind words to thank you guys appreciate Richard alright that was richard dutch. Joining us i love that that was a great discussion was excellent. Covered a lot of we were running low on time but i did want to get to some of the other news items and we do have a super chat here that we didn't get to you during the interview but a brand is going to let us know. What's gonna happen to raw in five years Brandon with with court cutting after this next deal like let's theorize that it's a five year deal that raw gets. Would it be wise to leave cable in five years. Why are we are where are cable subs in five years let's imagine okay we do we have to do a lot of hypothesizing here so if you say that you say network is currently in seventy three seventy four million homes. Let's say in five years that number is fifty eight million homes. How many five years how many i guess six years when this deal is up but anyway let's let's go to fifty eight million dollar fifty eight million homes number at that point. Is maybe even leaving cable and you would think what does that mean streaming could that mean a broadcast option for raw this broadcast strengthen over these next years. It's still hard to imagine you know we've been thinking over whether smackdown might be real player for Amazon. And my time is going on here i've gotten soft on the idea that that prime video is is a real potential home i'm sure they're gonna bid and explored all that but if i'm going to be i'm nervous about going to prime video because i'm not sure how many people are really gonna watch it. On prime video of the next five years just because yes many people have prime video in their homes because so many people i think like 80 million people it's. Close to the new cable home account a lot of people have prime video but how much time are people spending in that app and that. Ecosystem i think it's a lot lower obviously through the NFL you can attract it a decent audience that kind of win over the last of all season. But i'm just not sure how streaming is going to come together as this place for discoverability and reach and live viewership yet. But you're asking about five years from now is it just depends on how far if we're thinking like 50 million homes are left wherever. Where ever the biggest audiences can be aggregated live. If we're at the point where. An NFL game on a streaming platform can equate what or surpass what what a cable or broadcast live. Audience can can be then i think we're in that in that realm of possibility but it still feels like we're far away from that i would not be surprised if you know. If linear TV live TV first for news and sports sort of. Evolve in some some hybrid internet slash. Traditional system sort of like the vm tp function now which is things like playing tv and youtube tv. Have your thoughts gone at all towards in this this next deal of programming on nbc. For the back down like like nbc broadcast network nbc broadcast. Yeah i don't think so i mean i i i i i see how it could be conceivable because they're on fox max on fox but i think. i think the brand and the strategy of nbc is probably not does not include wrestling but us a network certainly does. Well let's talk a little bit about some of the news that is coming up today i'll be there there's quite a bit out there so we're going to reel it all in and of course lots of discussion today about the potential. New deal involving w b d and a w and just before we went live day melter reporting that. A new tv rights deal between a w and Warner Brothers discovery will be announced as part of the ladders up front presentation next Wednesday in new york city. Day melter said that both deal and the much discussed a w collision show will be announced on the may 17th event at the hulu theater at Madison Square Garden so i'm not attaching any any value or term to the deal but that. It is imminent and it would be announced a week from now which would be obviously the dollar figures going to be of most interest to everybody but this does correlate to all of these changes that we have seen a Warner Brothers discovery bringing in all of a w programming in house and the launch of this collision show that would be wrapped into this deal. This is the big moment this is if you get a good upgrade then this makes the business viable i think to this point very unlikely that you has been profitable with the exception of the time during the pandemic when expenses were probably relatively low. When they were running at the least place and and doing you know multiple shows and one session and all that they're saving lives on expense but now since they've been touring again i'm sure they're racking up at least a half million dollars in production expense something like that per week. Which is with all the other expenses is probably exceeding whatever they're making revenue. So if they get a good upgrade i don't know how good but if they get a good upgrade and then this makes a w viable and self self sustainable. We're expecting on on Wednesday as a prediction a w collision will be made official that's what i expect to be surprised that's not the case. I'm probably a two hour show probably not a one hour show so that would mean okay yes we know that dark and dark elevation are going away and that that takes something off the plate for the dynamite taking the dynamite still gotta take dynamite and rampage. So if this is a two hour show in collision that sounds like an additional night of touring every week. Which is something in the neighborhood of a half million dollars extra expense per week. You're not putting that big expense on to a w without a w agreeing to get paid more money for it. I'm very tough on your production and you know if there are if this is as expected that you know soft launch whatever you want like some talent that will be doubling on those shows but production for sure that you know you go from a Wednesday Saturday it's not as though this is the old. Raw Monday night Tuesday Smackdown where it's just go to the next town next night you do have those in between dates like it's logistically it's it's a big change to how you produces its television. So i have to think that it means that the addition of collision will mean more money in the immediate term for a w and it raises the question which is consistent with the report from from Dave this afternoon that. Perhaps this means that there is a new deal in place. I've been doing math even before this story started to go around this morning this afternoon. No how yes i've been doing the math about how much if you're adding on collision and if you think collision says my sort of. estimate how much could collision do on a Saturday we don't know the time slot but we all think it's a Saturday maybe eight maybe six like we said we Saturday night any case. I think it's within a realistic estimate to say maybe can do in the demo point one five so if i can throw that slide up on the screen i'll try to talk through some math very briefly and then intelligible as possible so basically if we look at what these shows what the big wrestling shows you in terms of the demo. And compare to each other so dynamite is your today is doing about a point to nine in the demo for a eighteen forty nine rating focus on the demo here. So point two nine is what dynamite is doing point one three is what rampages you again this is your today this is not including the glory days of dynamite in twenty twenty one. So if you what what what TV value is really about is not just about what rating you can average but about how many hours in addition to that you're delivering so few. Calculate this out into something called the your hours so basically you're average rating times the number of hours that you're delivering in this case i'm showing it by the year. We get to about forty nine million eighteen to forty nine annual your hours which is a lot less than than either raw or smack down or delivering right that gets to forty nine million and smack down delivering like eighty two million. Raw is delivering like a hundred twelve million so ron smack down this is driven by their viewership as well as the number of hours that they deliver ron smack down are much more valuable properties. In addition to that we can think about how w probably gets paid at a premium to just because they're much more established brand. So but then if we add in the notion that there's going to be this a w collision show that's going to be a two hour show and if you. Think this is a reasonable assumption that i think it's going to average let's say one point one five in the demo. I'm that adds on a lot of value for for a w and i can get the annual viewer hours up to seventy million it's still not quite what what smack down is even. But it's but it's more and as we know the average value of a w programming is about forty four million dollars per year for smack down it's. Two hundred five million dollars per year for rots two hundred two hundred sixty five million dollars per year but i'm. You can do some more math here which which i won't go over in too much strenuous detail and audio but basically if you sort of level up. A w's value per viewer hour up to what a w's what up to what w's current value is i can get to a situation where it sounds realistic that you could be getting an upgrade of. Two hundred fifteen million dollars average annual value if you think that's five year deal that can get to a billion dollars over five years so that would be two hundred fifteen divided by. Forty four million that's something like a five x increase so if you remember if people remember about a year ago i did a. A podcast we went through a bunch of slides and i compared. Similar numbers compared to w and the n h l the n h l is getting sort of per viewer. I'm we may be argument that caused a lot of a lot of existential a w feelings i predicted that it could be three x to five x i'm. And if you consider that was in a year ago. There was a stronger macro economics environment i would say a stronger me environment i think this is the before netflix subscribers flattened out and that sort of. Discomfort in the market and a year ago. See a pumpkin not you know lost his mind at a press conference yet i w stronger. So i did all that math with probably stronger ratings at that time free w but if you consider that that was just a rampage i stack a new show collision on top of it. I think that could that conceivably get to a five x increase not just because of. A w being way less monetized than wb but because you're adding a lot more content here to. And the big another big thing that we might learn on wednesday next week is perhaps there's some sort of a w connection related to wb streaming service max. Maybe all in will air live on max that's what we all speculate about and maybe there's even some sort of library deal there to. So you know is it reasonable that you can be getting a five x upgrade here i think so i think it is realistic to. The math tells me that this is this is realistic that could be a five x increase. And if that is the case i mean that is. To me as much of a home run as you could categorize these negotiations and i think over the last year. That certainly it was always the thought of is the eight w fall into that that vaunted middle that nikon has outlined are the middle going to get squeezed out where would a w fit in and in the grand scheme of things like even if we're throwing those like going with with Brandon's math. It's still not the like it's not a wild figure that a w was just so underpriced during this last contract cycle that it's. But it's a game changer for them if you're going with the idea of a five x increase. Yeah and i do all this math. Based on w's current value so he's probably gonna get you know we think one point five x maybe two x john oran things to x you know. So w will still be way more monetized you could say that a w would. Just just for for for people may be skeptical that a w could ever be as valuable as w will probably get a strong upgrade insta will still greatly exceed not only in absolute dollars but in the rate that they're getting per viewer that they deliver. I mean if you look at the ratings of. Of sports broadly and the n i shall is not delivering what a w's i don't think i'm in the demo now. And i shall may be more valuable in other ways including at rates and maybe maybe they contribute to carriage fees in a way that is not. But sad day by the way for rogers tomorrow if the leaves are in fact out of the playoffs there will be a big trouble they should they should see if they can influence this game somehow. Yeah just seeing these nhl playoff numbers in Canada like it is insane how big they are it doesn't like non Toronto may believe schemes as well like it's just a juggernaut and you've got the leaves and the oilers in the playoffs as we speak so. That is a monster steal that rogers has attached to the nhl but that is a that is a sidebar and when i say nhl i mean not the playoffs are doing. Right really well even in the u.s right but the regular season and shall games i don't think no what's anywhere really near what what time is able to do. Do you look at saturday night for a w first of all do you have. A thought on one times one start time being stronger than the other and the saturday night. Some of mitigate expectations given what they will be up against on most saturday is like do you look at it as is there a silver lining to saturday night versus you know a lot of the arguments that have been out there over. Why saturday is not a great night. I'm sure there's just like a basic math answer to this that i should look in look at what the show is daily numbers but people who have access to the actual all the newton data can just look and say. When is your ship higher on saturday at six or eight and certainly w b d has access to information. And whatever the answer is is is where you put it i would think especially when you have to consider there's going to be some wp leas there going on at a clock once a month. Yeah and what do you do on those nights i get like it's really it's not an apples apples comparison but it's like once a month you have a clash of the champions against russell mania for where it's not so much you're paying thirty dollars but. If you stack up like these cards on that saturday and trying to train your audience that you're going to peak the shows i mean i don't see those being saturday is that they're just throwing the towel and i think they're going to be very aggressive knowing they're going against such a. Key competitor once a month so i think that's the fact that so if six o'clock and eight o'clock are pretty comparable i think you go with six o'clock because you're gonna have wrestling had a competition once a month or something. It's gonna be battleground every uh every saturday night. Head to head with the cord hours but those are streaming now to get the uh what would have higher viewership i think i think wp leon peacock in the united states have higher viewership than. Yeah then then a w show going head to head with a wp certainly the bigger ones it's like we had what the figure was one point five million for the royal rumble. Something like that yeah that was around the number so i mean it would be you know if you're going for like a rank and file of it like for instance this past weekend. Like your backlash event like i wouldn't imagine it was. Too far under that number it's not going to do a royal rumble number but- you know it comes at a time that they have made these monthly events feel like every show this year like that elimination chamber in february backlash. Like they have done a really good job of not just well it's every four weeks it's time to do a pay per view they have tried to make these feel like. Big big shows and and and separate them in that sense to make them feel big. Yeah i mean the i thought backlash was really strong show but you know all these international feelings have been doing. I think collision looking at the ratings to the extent that i can look at them with the show is daily data. It looks like maybe when i looked at this like a month ago that tbs was a little bit stronger on saturday so that that told me that maybe. This means tante because tante you probably use the help a little bit more. We also had and i'm sure we will be discussing this pretty heavily next week and we will be doing a show next week after the up front and whatever announcements are made but. Brandon this coming in. Are you manual was on cnbc's walk on the street today and we have a recap from the observer site here so are you manual was asked. If you plan on letting w we quote do what they want to do and quote and are his answer exactly and we do what we do as it relates to saving some cost. Driving some revenue with sponsorship international sales like we did at ufc we're going to do two point oh at w we. W point oh w two point oh yeah that is already manual know about an ex t point oh no one. Or w we network two point oh remember that. No i mean that never happen though right that would have never happened it was called w two point oh by barrios and wilson and they stated we know that's a bad name don't get attached to the two point oh name but that was. What they were labeling it when they were looking at the tiered system that never came to be and then he was also asked another question about the. The merger right now we're focused on saving some cost doing sponsorship which they didn't have it's the same formula we use that you have see w we's rights are open now you have sees are up in a year and a half from now i think they are on separate time frames that being asked i guess about you know. The expiration of those upcoming tv deals but in both answers mentioning saving costs so they are going to be letting people off that's what they're concentrating on now just. Work out who they need what kind of teams need to keep i guess. I did there's a question to me about how how involved or if it will be involved at all and never will be with to be right to go chasing i'm guessing not just because they're not merged yet not going to be merged until. Later in the year so i'm thinking that this is just going to be w i mean that's the bad thing is so that the w is going to be making the deals. You know with itself without the interval. It would seem like you know nick on and maybe even this man being the people in these meetings and bring this to the finish line like i can imagine like an army manuals really until it's closed really not getting into this nor would i think that he is needed for this at this point unless you. Are really dragging this out which it's not going to drag out to the end of the year. Yeah streaming deals might be a different story once they are actually merged before those are up in twenty six. Last thing before we wrap up i wanted to get some of your thoughts on the story that you noted on the new news updates that we're getting at patreon dot com slash wrestling on x and that is a bill that has been introduced in the state of new york by state senator. Timothy Kennedy regarding the regulation of professional wrestling and new york is one of the states that does regulate pro wrestling and snatched the dream of nick wane to compete at the hammerstein ballroom last year out of his hands because of his age so that is the impact that new york has had in the most recent future that people might remember. And i think they stopped in your gender match it in summer slam weekend of several years ago to. Yes i'm really why don't you just recap what what is this bill outlining what is it looking to do this is in the very early stages that has been it's not going to do much but it's looking to do a review of. The states regulation of pro wrestling on. The state senator tim kennedy is from buffalo he is not my representative where i live but almost on. And it's i don't know what to read from it i mean i know that there have been there's at least one person aware of who's gone to the local representative who is a promoter and try to talk about how we can make some changes here. I guess just to set it up there's. New York is one of the most heavily regulated states when it comes to pro wrestling i wrestled as an independent wrestler probably most matches i had where you are state i worked you know closely with with promoters so i. I haven't been around shows really close to you for like a year or so but you know my understanding is that it costs. Well over thousand dollars to show start as an independent show so you have to pay. Combat insurance which is several hundred dollars per show you have to have a license you have to have a bond you have to have a doctor there you have to have an ambulance so all these things. Basically all things i just went each cost several hundred dollars and some of them are per show expenses so for an independent promoter to run a show that does not lose money you've got to draw a couple hundred people or have you know. At least a few more sources of revenue so. You know in my view it's been for me the entire time that i was a wrestler it was a real hindrance in terms of being able to run. More shows and a hindrance in terms of wrestlers being able to develop as wrestlers. There is there's some safety things that are good is good to have a doctor there's good to have an ambulance there if something happens. What is it really high expense and the that insurance in particular i've rarely ever heard of anybody coming close to using it and it's it's a huge expense that i don't know that any other state or if there are other states of you something similar to very very few. So it would be a great relief i think to to wrestling promoters and be the thing for the wrestling scene in general. Yes other questions is with this benefit w or a w would they be. You know what they push for this as well i'm not sure i think there is a tax on ticket sales that they. Maybe they could work on reducing but the big thing for independent rose is the expenses are inflicted on them so this is just a bill that has not been voted on yet. That is gonna present their findings in november so if it is approved they have to submit a report by november they say they'll talk to people who are stakeholders. Presumably people involved in this one we'll see it will see what comes of it if anything. Yeah it's a subject for next year as well because with WrestleMania in philadelphia pennsylvania my understanding it's promoters that require a license in the state not performers is much more reasonable it's. You have to be a licensed promoter you might need a bond or something like that but it's it's much more manageable is which is why you know there's one promotion i worked for that would run every month and i've wrestled a ton for them it's just like. Is it your Pennsylvania and you know it was just they were able to run a lot more because the expenses were so much lower. Yeah i'm terrier went through that and then it was regulated in two thousand six yeah thanks to the listo. The first of who's got a book coming out she would be someone definitely that we spreadsheet for sure the first of actually i added a senator tim kennedy to the spreadsheet today so i'm just every name that i'm mind it's going there. Let's end without i'll call it my local state senator will see if he will talk to us question here is from Nicholas i apologize i missed this but how much do we're all smack down in the next team a year now okay Brandon just went over this how much do you think increases also i see smack down moving to nbc okay there's a lot there but as Brandon. I mentioned raw well we know the average annual value of two hundred sixty five million for raw two or five percent down and nxt is just the white whale of. Walking down an exact value and xt is worth matching you know i when when xt first made the move to us a there were. What i would consider speculations that it was fifty million dollars you're i think it's well under that i don't know what it is. I had a gas something around fifteen million dollars years like that can be wrong anyway it's going to expire in September interesting to see if. At the nbc you up from on monday if we learn anything about an xt being renewed because they they've got to be renewed maybe they'll just get renewed in conjunction with rogging renewed or something but it's going to expire at in September if they don't extend it or renew it. All right we have gone a lengthy today but we hope everyone enjoyed the show and the format that we have been doing here a big thank you to Richard Geich for joining us so next week we will be back with a show and we will be focusing on the up front because. NBC U and fox have their up front in New York on monday and then i would say the big one is Warner Brothers discovery on Wednesday especially if it's in concert with this. Expected announcement of a deal with wvd and a w so we will have you covered next week and we will be a we will be putting out the bat signal for a potential guest or two as well next week. A brandon where can people go to find out. What's happened to dynamite as tonight they go up against Donald trump in the u.s. And the maple leafs in Canada expect i like to get crushed tonight in the ratings as it goes against the warriors and Lakers i think that's probably the late game in any case they're going to get another mb playoff game and Donald trump on cnn. I don't know that the least games can be huge deal in the u.s. but yeah i expect i expect a dynamite to maybe be facing a milestone low when we find out the rating tomorrow i think your time. The deal Brandon is this is there they're going to get buyers remorse is this is tonight's number going to be cracked the flies tomorrow street to tweet to find out. You can go to the top of the last few days that might continue and everything else is a response i can find out what are at Brandon Thurston. All right i am back tonight with waiting we will be live here on the post wrestling youtube channel 10 eastern following dynamite in Detroit with the steel cage match between kenny omega and john moxley so we will be discussing all the top news stories of the day taking your feedback. And if you are so inclined Thursday night waiting is going to be doing a return of n c u later with Neil Flanagan and w h park to review guardians of the galaxy volume 3 featuring. Day but he's not number one at the box office this past weekend a hundred eighteen million dollars the franchise that. Paul levecans stepping to make man they just weren't so sure of 2014 and look at it all these years later turns out to be quite the hit for marvel. But that is it for us thanks to everyone for joining us live or listening after the fact that is it for us for Brandon Thurston i am john Pollock goodbye bye.